AP Post Interview

History Queen

Hi Everyone,
An API post has been advertised where I work. I have my application filled out and am awaiting interview. I'm probably a bit lacking in experience compared to the other candidates, but want to give it my best go anyway. I was just wondering if anyone who has been through the process before could offer any insight or advice?

Smacruairi

History Queen wrote: »

Hi Everyone,
An API post has been advertised where I work. I have my application filled out and am awaiting interview. I'm probably a bit lacking in experience compared to the other candidates, but want to give it my best go anyway. I was just wondering if anyone who has been through the process before could offer any insight or advice?

LAOS is the your guide. Learn all the jargon used, and then relate it to an anecdote from your past.

My way to answer would always be:
Your philosophy, then a brief anecdote to back it up, then link it to your competency.

Eg how do you lead teaching and learning? Well I believe teaching and learning is xyz, for example I led a literacy team that did Abc. Therefore I demonstrated that I am 123 by carrying out such such duties.

Have an answer on how you manage conflict and emotional situations.

Have an answer on how you bring ethos into classroom and other activities.

Have a set of 10 competencies/adjectives to describe yourself and a story for each one.

That's my way to do it anyway!

LW2018

Look at the LAOS document and the 4 domains on the form and look at the standards of highly effective... work your examples around those statements of highly effective practice and that’ll tell you where you need to put each example. It’s all about “leading, inspiring, motivating, encouraging, facilitating, empowering, communicating, reflecting, involving, considering, forward planning, being attuned to your own strengths and weaknesses, discerning the strengths in others, unlocking leadership potential it all, recognising the student voice as a key stakeholder...

Did you set up any initiative in school or have you been involved in any working group or team? What did you bring to that? Did you learn anything about yourself in that - type of person you are?

Do you work with a PME student? That’s a nice element for teaching and learning. Effective assessment for learning strategies / students as active agents in their learning - willing to risk mistakes as they know the valuable lesson from them... goal setting / inclusive and engaging environments catered to the diverse needs / reflective nature allows for this ...

Managing the Org: BOM rep? / exam aide? Class tutor?

Leading school development: sse / ict / LWR role / sporting team or school led initiative? Well-being (will be big focus if year head etc and there is a new national well-being programme that schools will be incorporating into their SSE plans from next year)

Developing leadership capacity - being involved and being willing / empowering others to take on roles / student leadership (student council / shoe box appeal etc) / being reflective and knowing when something isn’t working but to see why it isn’t working and to refocus etc ...

They love asking about dealing with conflict in the interview... someone not on board etc ... how do you manage these staff members without detailing the process - all about change management and conflict resolution etc.

Think about where your examples best fit with LAOS because that’s where the questions will be coming from... they will read a statement from it and create a scenario / question / probe that you will be answering - some based on your form and others not!

LW2018

How you engage your learners / the different elements and strategies related to assessment / self-directed and guided learning / critical independent thinkers (learning for life and instilling a love for learning) / safeguarding the wellbeing of all students and catering your strategies in both T&L and Assessment - have the strategies that you use - assessing each student at their own individual level of ability and capability while motivating and challenging them to progress their engagement with the topic on hand - encourage a willingness to make mistakes because the learning involved in this is overcoming the mistake and the lesson that can be achieved here.

How do you know the students are learning is another question that has been asked before / How can you tell if a strategy is working out / have you shared your initiatives with your colleagues etc - staff collaboration / peer-learning / reflective practice / SSE initiatives ...

History Queen

Thanks so much for the advice everyone. Looks like I've a bit of study to do.

2011abc

Every single bit of the LAOS (Leadership and our Schools ) claptrap has been bought or stolen verbatim by 'The Department' from THIS website

https://www.teachertoolkit.co.uk/

The same type of goons who debate the difference between 'leading development' and 'developing leadership'(and lets not forget this 'framework' is now used to appoint/choose everything from AP2s to principals ) would have been arguing over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin 500 years ago .

It seems any ole english 'expert' can come in and drive policy here because anything we irish were doing must be wrong ."Land of Saints and Scholars" indeed ,we seem hell bent on following the UK system, Lemming style .Leaving Cycle in T minus 3...2...

Smacruairi

2011abc wrote: »

Every single bit of the LAOS (Leadership and our Schools ) claptrap has been bought or stolen verbatim by 'The Department' from THIS website

https://www.teachertoolkit.co.uk/

The same type of goons who debate the difference between 'leading development' and 'developing leadership'(and lets not forget this 'framework' is now used to appoint/choose everything from AP2s to principals ) would have been arguing over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin 500 years ago .

It seems any ole english 'expert' can come in and drive policy here because anything we irish were doing must be wrong ."Land of Saints and Scholars" indeed ,we seem hell bent on following the UK system, Lemming style .Leaving Cycle in T minus 3...2...

Laos stands for looking at our schools.

History Queen

Just to update. I was unsuccessful at interview. Disappointed obviously, but I'll look for my feedback and try improve for next time. Some of the questions were odd and not what I expected from a competency based interview.

Smacruairi

Unlucky, you'll get em next time. But yeah some can be phrased tricky, you just have to kinda twig which domain (and set of buzzwords!) they want you to load up!

History Queen

Smacruairi wrote: »

Unlucky, you'll get em next time. But yeah some can be phrased tricky, you just have to kinda twig which domain (and set of buzzwords!) they want you to load up!

Thanks a million. On reflection I'd say it wad the lack of buzzwords that killed me. I found it hard to keep remembering to sprinkle them in to my examples.

LW2018

Fair play for going for it and I'm sure you'll be successful next time now that you know what that set up is like? Would you mind sharing some of the questions you were asked? Always intrigued to see what people are asked in interviews

History Queen

Questions that I can remember that i was asked(phrasing not exact but general gist of question is there,):

.
Talk about a time you led an initiative at school

Talk about a time you managed staff

How have you helped the management team in your school

How do you bring reluctant staff members on board with your ideas

In what way have you led an initiative that has benefitted the whole school

What one thing have you learned in your career thus far that you would share with other staff

Name 3 things you think should be a priority for schools over the next two years


Last two I felt unprepared for they didn't strike me as the typical competency based type question but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Smacruairi

History Queen wrote: »

Questions that I can remember that i was asked(phrasing not exact but general gist of question is there,):

.
Talk about a time you led an initiative at school

Talk about a time you managed staff

How have you helped the management team in your school

How do you bring reluctant staff members on board with your ideas

In what way have you led an initiative that has benefitted the whole school

What one thing have you learned in your career thus far that you would share with other staff

Name 3 things you think should be a priority for schools over the next two years


Last two I felt unprepared for they didn't strike me as the typical competency based type question but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Yeah that 3 things question is the have you read your school's most recent MLL report or subject inspection. Tricky if you're not ready alright. Likewise, answer on saying remote learning strategies would only get you so far.

One thing with staff, yeah tricky, I'd go on about the importance of robust communicative structures, I'm so great because I do this etc.

Difficult to improve the school when it's your boss interviewing you!

History Queen

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yeah that 3 things question is the have you read your school's most recent MLL report or subject inspection. Tricky if you're not ready alright. Likewise, answer on saying remote learning strategies would only get you so far.

One thing with staff, yeah tricky, I'd go on about the importance of robust communicative structures, I'm so great because I do this etc.

Difficult to improve the school when it's your boss interviewing you!

Oh maybe i didn't do so badly on 3 things to focus on one, i cited 3 things from our last inspection

amacca

History Queen wrote: »

Questions that I can remember that i was asked(phrasing not exact but general gist of question is there,):

.
Talk about a time you led an initiative at school

Talk about a time you managed staff

How have you helped the management team in your school

How do you bring reluctant staff members on board with your ideas

In what way have you led an initiative that has benefitted the whole school

What one thing have you learned in your career thus far that you would share with other staff

Name 3 things you think should be a priority for schools over the next two years


Last two I felt unprepared for they didn't strike me as the typical competency based type question but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Isnt it such utter bull**** really when you think about it?

They might as well add this overly long slightly poorly worded question too

Are you the right kind of yes person that will blindly follow any nonsense initiative some twit trying to justify their existence in the dept dreams up or a school manager looking for advancement themselves comes up with....all the while making the conditions your colleagues work in that bit more irritating and ultimately remove a little bit more time/autonomy/authority from the classroom teacher but say it was fabulous anyway?

Etc etc

ethical

amacca wrote: »

Isnt it such utter bull**** really when you think about it?

They might as well add this overly long slightly poorly worded question too

Are you the right kind of yes person that will blindly follow any nonsense initiative some twit trying to justify their existence in the dept dreams up or a school manager looking for advancement themselves comes up with....all the while making the conditions your colleagues work in that bit more irritating and ultimately remove a little bit more time/autonomy/authority from the classroom teacher but say it was fabulous anyway?

Etc etc

This is so very true of the way things are at the moment.

If you are a member of a Golden Circle it does not matter what answer you give to an interview question.Somethings will never change.So many good people are leaving the profession.The Unions are no help either.See my post re: half day the Tuesday of the holidays and you will see how "helpful" the Unions are to the frontline teacher

History Queen

God I find the above so depressing to read. There is such little opportunity for progression in our profession anyway, to think it's a pointless exercise applying or that if you do, you have to sell your soul is bleak.

2011abc

LW2018 wrote: »

Fair play for going for it and I'm sure you'll be successful next time

SMacRuairi also made a similar comment .Its becoming increasingly the trend that you WONT 'get it the next time '.Certainly after a few attempts youre most likely wasting your time .You would not have to be too cynical to think these interviews are predetermined or at least they know who WONT get it beforehand.At their most liberal it will be between two 'favourites' but Id bet good money in at least 50% of cases the principals choice 'has it' before a word is said .In fact the anointed one would have to do an epically bad interview to not get the nod .If one of the other two/four on interview panel goes rogue and 'votes for' someone else you can be sure they wont be invited back for another 175 euro approx (?) payola .

Smacruairi

I can understand the frustration, and to some degree, there are principals who go their own way, particularly I see in ETBs, but honestly, like with most interviews, sometimes there are people who are better.

I've won some interviews, lost some, and yeah on one occasion felt like it was clearly an inside job, but the majority of colleagues I've seen hired etc are there on merit and experience. Just keep plugging away.

For those saying that the principal doesn't want "straight shooters", I mean sometimes no, you have someone who can't work as part of a team and you don't want people doing random unexpected things at diff times. You want your 6th year head to act in the same processes as your TY year head, not totally different ways of doing things. You can't have one person thinking that they'll deal with u bullying through talks all the time and the other looking to just suspend everyone,that really comes through in interviews sometimes.

I know it's an unpopular opinion and I wish everyone the best of luck in theirs, but sometimes working on your answers and your own world is better than just looking to tear down the person who got the job... But hey!

Icsics

For sure there are issues now with the process around middle management appointments, namely that the Principal will put in their people, usually inexperienced teachers who will do his /her bidding without question. But IMO a much bigger problem is the recruitment of Principals / Deputy’s, again very inexperienced people seem to be getting these positions, often not able for the job but knowing that if they play the game for a few years they can move on to a bigger school.

2011abc

Icsics wrote: »

For sure there are issues now with the process around middle management appointments, namely that the Principal will put in their people, usually inexperienced teachers who will do his /her bidding without question. But IMO a much bigger problem is the recruitment of Principals / Deputy’s, again very inexperienced people seem to be getting these positions, often not able for the job but knowing that if they play the game for a few years they can move on to a bigger school.

Amen!

doc_17

The three things question is probably a bit of a test to see if you are keeping yourself up to date with educational reforms. Reflect on your weak answers and involve yourself in stuff that will strengthen that area next time.

Remember it’s a competency “based” interview but that doesn’t mean it’s entirely based on those types of questions. Get your feedback anyway.

I didn’t catch if you had a postgrad in school leadership or masters? That will certainly help. I’m not quite as cynical as others on this point because of hard work isn’t rewarded then principals with their head screwed will realise schools will fall to pieces if hard work isn’t being rewarded.

kala85

Icsics wrote: »

For sure there are issues now with the process around middle management appointments, namely that the Principal will put in their people, usually inexperienced teachers who will do his /her bidding without question. But IMO a much bigger problem is the recruitment of Principals / Deputy’s, again very inexperienced people seem to be getting these positions, often not able for the job but knowing that if they play the game for a few years they can move on to a bigger school.

Can you explain this a bit more please?

History Queen

I don't have a postgraduate in school leadership but I have a certificate. Do I need more considering I have no interest in being a principal? I appreciate everyone's feedback and opinions. I'll stay working away anyway.

am_zarathustra

Getting feedback is vital. One area seriously let me down in my first competency based interview, on reflection I would say fairly. I focused on that area and really worked on improving my engagement and knowledge of it in the school and I was successful in the next interview. I'd be a very hard worker but the person who beat me the first time would have more experience and have been stronger in that particular area so fair enough.

I also read circulars as they come out and stay very much on top of what direction the department are moving in (not that I always agree, but you also can't disagree effectively with what you don't understand). Talking to other staff in my school after another round of promotions the fact you need to be fairly strong in all four areas seems to have escaped some people so definitely get your scores!

History Queen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Getting feedback is vital. One area seriously let me down in my first competency based interview, on reflection I would say fairly. I focused on that area and really worked on improving my engagement and knowledge of it in the school and I was successful in the next interview. I'd be a very hard worker but the person who beat me the first time would have more experience and have been stronger in that particular area so fair enough.

I also read circulars as they come out and stay very much on top of what direction the department are moving in (not that I always agree, but you also can't disagree effectively with what you don't understand). Talking to other staff in my school after another round of promotions the fact you need to be fairly strong in all four areas seems to have escaped some people so definitely get your scores!

Thanks a million. I will do. On feedback, can you ask questions at it or do they just meet you and give you a "spiel" rather than allow you to ask questions?

Random sample

What sort of initiatives are people setting up in their schools? I’m involved in lots of things, but they are mostly set up by management, so I would have nothing to say there.

History Queen

Random sample wrote: »

What sort of initiatives are people setting up in their schools? I’m involved in lots of things, but they are mostly set up by management, so I would have nothing to say there.

These aren't my ideas just ones I know people who were successful in posts at my school did before they became postholders:

Tech tutorials for staff run by someone tech savy on staff, one day a month they do a "drop in clinic" at lunch time

School yearbook

School newsletter

Mentoring programme for 1st year students

Staff and student trad music club

Leading sse initiatives

Running school show

Introducing new subjects to school

Setting up school library

Running "meet the teacher" night for first year parents

kala85

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Getting feedback is vital. One area seriously let me down in my first competency based interview, on reflection I would say fairly. I focused on that area and really worked on improving my engagement and knowledge of it in the school and I was successful in the next interview. I'd be a very hard worker but the person who beat me the first time would have more experience and have been stronger in that particular area so fair enough.

I also read circulars as they come out and stay very much on top of what direction the department are moving in (not that I always agree, but you also can't disagree effectively with what you don't understand). Talking to other staff in my school after another round of promotions the fact you need to be fairly strong in all four areas seems to have escaped some people so definitely get your scores!

What area would you have found yourself struggling in?

am_zarathustra

kala85 wrote: »

What area would you have found yourself struggling in?

The 3rd domain, Leading school development! It was one I definitely needed to work on, getting the feedback helped and definitely thinking about the reasons the successful candidate did so much better in that area helped me improve for the next round.

am_zarathustra

History Queen wrote: »

Thanks a million. I will do. On feedback, can you ask questions at it or do they just meet you and give you a "spiel" rather than allow you to ask questions?

I'd recommend getting your actual numbers. It's out of 100, 25 for each domain. You get your scores and the successful candidates scores, helps to really see where exactly you lost marks and the written notes from the interviewers can give insight too. The principal will generally go through it with you if you want, I didn't opt for this. The numbers made it clear to me what I needed to work on!!

deiseindublin

I'm not convinced the numbers are actually useful in a lot of cases. I'm of the opinion that the figures released only tell us that the person who got the job was logged as scoring more overall.

2011abc

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm not convinced the numbers are actually useful in a lot of cases. I'm of the opinion that the figures released only tell us that the person who got the job was logged as scoring more overall.

Absolutely a waste of time in many cases ,cobbled together set of random lower scores .The sort of people who fix these dont posses the subtlety or mathematical intelligenece to even disguise their shenanigans .I remember one of mine was just an enormous chunk taken out of the first question's score by the principal who gave half the marks of the other two on the panel .

History Queen

2011abc wrote: »

Absolutely a waste of time in many cases ,cobbled together set of random lower scores .The sort of people who fix these dont posses the subtlety or mathematical intelligenece to even disguise their shenanigans .I remember one of mine was just an enormous chunk taken out of the first question's score by the principal who gave half the marks of the other two on the panel .

Just got my scores... what you said appears to be true... I'm not sure what to think now. I'm meeting a member of the interview board tomorrow for feedback so I'll know more then.

amacca

History Queen wrote: »

Just got my scores... what you said appears to be true... I'm not sure what to think now. I'm meeting a member of the interview board tomorrow for feedback so I'll know more then.

Its possible you are not who they wanted....have you displayed any backbone or capacity for independant thought in the recent past...do you have standards? Are you capable of saying no politely on occasion when you have your own private commitments and life to lead, have you ever failed to think that any new initiative or plan is just super fantastic and must be embraced wholeheartedly with almost nauseating levels of only the most positive kind of positivity and definitely not questioned ...if so then it could be possibls that any combination of those could potentially have been the problem....but theyll probably tell you it was close in the end but the other candidate scored marginally higher in supporting school ethos and vision or some such wooly bolox plucked out of locations where the sun dont shineetc etc

History Queen

I have had disagreements with the principal. On occasions where i was wrong i acknowledged it and moved on. I don't like his personality or the way he operates most of the time, but i think we've an ok professional relationship.

I didn't expect to get this post and don't think anyone is out to get me, but scoring 5 marks less than the preferred candidate in Developing Leadership Capacity when I run two large scale projects each year and have a qualification in Leadership and Management (preferred candidate leads nothing and has no qualification, i know as I'm friends with them) does make me wonder if it was a fait accompli before interviews were held.

Just to reiterate, I have no complaint about not getting the post, if the candidaye yhey chose hadn't got it i suspect one of two other colleagues would have been chosen. That neing said I would like to be able to work on my application for the future, I can't do that if my feedback doesn't relate to my performance.

amacca

History Queen wrote: »

I have had disagreements with the principal. On occasions where i was wrong i acknowledged it and moved on. I don't like his personality or the way he operates most of the time, but i think we've an ok professional relationship.

I didn't expect to get this post and don't think anyone is out to get me, but scoring 5 marks less than the preferred candidate in Developing Leadership Capacity when I run two large scale projects each year and have a qualification in Leadership and Management (preferred candidate leads nothing and has no qualification, i know as I'm friends with them) does make me wonder if it was a fait accompli before interviews were held.

Just to reiterate, I have no complaint about not getting the post, if the candidaye yhey chose hadn't got it i suspect one of two other colleagues would have been chosen. That neing said I would like to be able to work on my application for the future, I can't do that if my feedback doesn't relate to my performance.

I cant claim to be an expert and id say there are differences between schools but anecdotally (which doesnt count for much in fairness) it seems in some places its become more of a game of who is the best lickarse

I think your best bet is to continue to plug away at it if you want it and definitely get the feedback .....then strengthen that area (even if it doesnt need strengthening and the whole thing is a bit of a sham)

You will get there in the end with perseverance if you want
It that much.......if they highlight an area for improvement and you improve it and everything else remains at high level its harder for them to deny the next time, watch for them deliberately leaving a get out of jail clause for themselves though

Out of curiosity, would you be the more senior candidate, seems to be a bit of a trend of promoting the greener easier to manipulate eager young ones which is a shame and detrimental to staff morale in a lot of cases + lowers standards for everyone in the long run.....for all the guff about ethos/school community etc etc it doesnt seem to operate that way a lot of the time......

Some people play the other way which is make them afraid not to give them the role but thats a trickier game.

Personally if they came back saying you scpred low on developing leadership capacity id question how they came to that decision given what you have said regarding leading two large scale projects etc.......you might learn something regarding what they consider their definition of that is or that they are total bluffers that always had their preferred candidate regardless of interview process....now having said that my advice may not be the best you would receive as my own personal preference when faced with this particular kind of **** is to mentally tell them to stick it as far up their asses as it will go and earn multiples of the scheckels they are handing out independantly of the system.....its my opinion they are getting far too much in return for ignoring what their basic role is to try run a school like low end call centre while still retaining all the aspirational dewey eyed educational vocational guff when it suits.

History Queen

amacca wrote: »

I cant claim to be an expert and id say there are differences between schools but anecdotally (which doesnt count for much in fairness) it seems in some places its become more of a game of who is the best lickarse

I think your best bet is to continue to plug away at it if you want it and definitely get the feedback .....then strengthen that area (even if it doesnt need strengthening and the whole thing is a bit of a sham)

You will get there in the end with perseverance if you want
It that much.......if they highlight an area for improvement and you improve it and everything else remains at high level its harder for them to deny the next time, watch for them deliberately leaving a get out of jail clause for themselves though

Out of curiosity, would you be the more senior candidate, seems to be a bit of a trend of promoting the greener easier to manipulate eager young ones which is a shame and detrimental to staff morale in a lot of cases + lowers standards for everyone in the long run.....for all the guff about ethos/school community etc etc it doesnt seem to operate that way a lot of the time......

Some people play the other way which is make them afraid not to give them the role but thats a trickier game.

Personally if they came back saying you scpred low on developing leadership capacity id question how they came to that decision given what you have said regarding leading two large scale projects etc.......you might learn something regarding what they consider their definition of that is or that they are total bluffers that always had their preferred candidate regardless of interview process....now having said that my advice may not be the best you would receive as my own personal preference when faced with this particular kind of **** is to mentally tell them to stick it as far up their asses as it will go and earn multiples of the scheckels they are handing out independantly of the system.....its my opinion they are getting far too much in return for ignoring what their basic role is to try run a school like low end call centre while still retaining all the aspirational dewey eyed educational vocational guff when it suits.

Just to answer your question i was the second most junior going for interview. The most senior person got it. Going by posts in our place anyway in the past 3 years seniority or lack thereof doesn't seem an obvious factor. I appreciate what you said about individual schools. Thank you for the advice

scrubs33

Always an interesting discussion to be had around the AP process. I swore I'd never apply after I saw two principals who were sitting on an interview board discussing the candidates applications and allocating marks/questions in a local cafe one afternoon...the day before the interview took place. I'm in another school in the area but would know both of them and knew from contacts in the school that these interviews were coming up. Now I'm sure that there are plenty of examples where things are done by the book but I'm not convinced everyone is.

rainbowtrout

History Queen wrote: »

I have had disagreements with the principal.

There's your answer.

History Queen wrote: »

I didn't expect to get this post and don't think anyone is out to get me, but scoring 5 marks less than the preferred candidate in Developing Leadership Capacity when I run two large scale projects each year and have a qualification in Leadership and Management (preferred candidate leads nothing and has no qualification, i know as I'm friends with them) does make me wonder if it was a fait accompli before interviews were held.

All things being equal, if you are leading projects and have the bit of paper and the candidate who got it has neither, then it wasn't scored fairly, I think you know the rest.

Empathy20

We got new management a few years ago and the last time those who got the AP1 Posts were a shock. Established colleagues who had worked hard over the years with AP2 posts were completed overlooked. The marking for one colleague was a disgrace. She is an excellent teacher and some students might say the best teacher but the irony she scored the lowest out of all in Teaching and Learning. I have a lot of respect for her how she dealt with it as she resigned her AP2 Post even after the CE of the ETB came out to meet her.

It’s a known thing in my school if you started around the same time as our new management or are male you are flavour of the month with management. I will say it’s not the male staff’s fault that their stars have risen so high with female management, but it would be nice for management to recognise everyone.

The notion it’s a level playing field for all is absolute fantasy in most schools.

Treppen

Not my cup of tea for AP, always an Indian never a chief etc. But I know some teachers who are genuinely spot on at their post.

But really, leaving aside the toll it takes on your stress levels, is it financially worth it?

What's an AP before tax? 8k?

Would it increase your pension that much say getting an AP 1 at age 35 on post 2011 pension scheme?

rainbowtrout

AP2 is just under 4k. AP1 is now 9k or thereabouts since the pay rise in October. So for the person getting it at the age of 35, I presume you're referring to the new pension scheme, it's an extra 9k on their salary for 30 odd years, given that they can't get their pension until 65. So it will make a difference at the other end.

am_zarathustra

I suspect most people aren't doing it for the money to be fair, handier doing grinds or correcting to be honest, it's definitely not paid well if you are in charge of multiple roles.

With regards to fairness, I absolutely agree with a lot of what's said here, I think a lot are predestined before the interview, I think had new management been around a little longer or had I not been heavily involved in an important area of the school as it happened at the time, I may not have succeeded either, despite the work I put in.

One thing I do find so odd is the fact that the quality of your teaching doesn't matter, this is bizarre. I am pulled ten ways every day, frequently issues turn up at my door but my classroom management is tight, the kids respect me and my classes are well planned so learning continues. While this isn't exactly within the framework it's also vital when it comes to your colleagues, I can't lead teaching and learning and ask staff to take on new initiatives if I can't walk the walk. Our last round of promotions was crazy really, a number of absoutly top notch teachers lost out to people who can't control a class, and though there is no box for it in the interview, it's still the bulk of what any of us in middle management should be at! This does cause issues, and I feel justifiably! My LC are more important than whatever JC nonsense they are going on about this week

Treppen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I suspect most people aren't doing it for the money to be fair, handier doing grinds or correcting to be honest, it's definitely not paid well if you are in charge of multiple roles.

With regards to fairness, I absolutely agree with a lot of what's said here, I think a lot are predestined before the interview, I think had new management been around a little longer or had I not been heavily involved in an important area of the school as it happened at the time, I may not have succeeded either, despite the work I put in.

One thing I do find so odd is the fact that the quality of your teaching doesn't matter, this is bizarre. I am pulled ten ways every day, frequently issues turn up at my door but my classroom management is tight, the kids respect me and my classes are well planned so learning continues. While this isn't exactly within the framework it's also vital when it comes to your colleagues, I can't lead teaching and learning and ask staff to take on new initiatives if I can't walk the walk. Our last round of promotions was crazy really, a number of absoutly top notch teachers lost out to people who can't control a class, and though there is no box for it in the interview, it's still the bulk of what any of us in middle management should be at! This does cause issues, and I feel justifiably! My LC are more important than whatever JC nonsense they are going on about this week

Hate to break it to you, but soon these teachers with paperwork posts will be educating you about think/pair/share and post-it notes for the new Leaving Cycle :pac:

The days of being left the **** alone to teach your subject are long gone.

Smacruairi

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I suspect most people aren't doing it for the money to be fair, handier doing grinds or correcting to be honest, it's definitely not paid well if you are in charge of multiple roles.

With regards to fairness, I absolutely agree with a lot of what's said here, I think a lot are predestined before the interview, I think had new management been around a little longer or had I not been heavily involved in an important area of the school as it happened at the time, I may not have succeeded either, despite the work I put in.

One thing I do find so odd is the fact that the quality of your teaching doesn't matter, this is bizarre. I am pulled ten ways every day, frequently issues turn up at my door but my classroom management is tight, the kids respect me and my classes are well planned so learning continues. While this isn't exactly within the framework it's also vital when it comes to your colleagues, I can't lead teaching and learning and ask staff to take on new initiatives if I can't walk the walk. Our last round of promotions was crazy really, a number of absoutly top notch teachers lost out to people who can't control a class, and though there is no box for it in the interview, it's still the bulk of what any of us in middle management should be at! This does cause issues, and I feel justifiably! My LC are more important than whatever JC nonsense they are going on about this week

The tone of this is spot on. I also can't understand people who couldn't control themselves let alone a class even wanting to go for these roles. Im gonna be extremely prejudiced here but I always find that there is no substitute for trying to lead a school like having to lead a class where no one wants to be there, eg ordinary level Irish last class on a Friday. If you can control that, then put yourselves forward, but don't come preaching about how great and fun teaching is when you teach chemistry where you only have 11 in the class, they're all wicked smart, and they all actually chose the subject (no offence to chemistry teachers, just an example!)

rainbowtrout

Smacruairi wrote: »

The tone of this is spot on. I also can't understand people who couldn't control themselves let alone a class even wanting to go for these roles. Im gonna be extremely prejudiced here but I always find that there is no substitute for trying to lead a school like having to lead a class where no one wants to be there, eg ordinary level Irish last class on a Friday. If you can control that, then put yourselves forward, but don't come preaching about how great and fun teaching is when you teach chemistry where you only have 11 in the class, they're all wicked smart, and they all actually chose the subject (no offence to chemistry teachers, just an example!)

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think it's fair. There are plenty of teachers who teach subjects that attract academically able and motivated students who still can't teach and their classes are a mess.

Students and staff know who the best teachers are regardless of what is on their timetable.

Smacruairi

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think it's fair. There are plenty of teachers who teach subjects that attract academically able and motivated students who still can't teach and their classes are a mess.

Students and staff know who the best teachers are regardless of what is on their timetable.

Yeah, I agree, no disrespect to any subject at all, it's the individual, but I suppose the other end of the spectrum is the teacher who has 30 mixed ability in a class, using all their energy to keep it going, and therefore doesn't have time to fluff out their cv because they're bollixed doing the dirty work of managing a tough class

History Queen

This thread has been really eye opening. Thanks again for the advive offered. I got my feedback Tuesday and to be fair the person giving it to me gave me some really good advice. He said i need to use the language of laos more and that what beat me was although my examples were good i didn't have that final sentence hammering home how i demonstrated the competency. Having spoken to my friend after getting my feedback she gave me examples of what she said and now I see how she nailed the competency in interview even though in reality I'm doing more things.

Long story short: I need to learn how to sell myself.

Saying that I'm beginning to suspect, based on what has been posted above, that my forthright nature probably isn't helping me either so a lesson in diplomacy is probably needed too!

rainbowtrout

History Queen wrote: »

This thread has been really eye opening. Thanks again for the advive offered. I got my feedback Tuesday and to be fair the person giving it to me gave me some really good advice. He said i need to use the language of laos more and that what beat me was although my examples were good i didn't have that final sentence hammering home how i demonstrated the competency. Having spoken to my friend after getting my feedback she gave me examples of what she said and now I see how she nailed the competency in interview even though in reality I'm doing more things.

Long story short: I need to learn how to sell myself.

Saying that I'm beginning to suspect, based on what has been posted above, that my forthright nature probably isn't helping me either so a lesson in diplomacy is probably needed too!

But isn't that a whole heap of shit really? If you are using particular buzzwords you'll get the job, even if you don't have the experience or qualifications of another.

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But isn't that a whole heap of shit really? If you are using particular buzzwords you'll get the job, even if you don't have the experience or qualifications of another.

Oh I agree it is an absolute heap of ****, however, if I want the job I have to play the game.