Calling out fellow cyclists for illegal or dangerous behavior

axer · 17-10-2019 3:06am #1

Cycling home yesterday I see a cyclist ahead of me making their way through a red light at a traffic junction. As he was going through the junction I see a car has also broken their red light coming from the side. The cyclist gives the driver a big shake of their head to show his disapproval. He then proceeds to continue through the junction on red and then through a pedestrian crossing while it is green for pedestrians.

I caught up with the cyclist a few junctions later. I really couldn't resist calling him out for being a hypocrite as id never seen anything as hypocritical before. He looked at me confused then all he could say was what the car did was dangerous. I pointed out how ridiculous that argument is and how can he expect others to follow the rules of the road if he doesn't. He then proceeded to take off through red lights again (green for pedestrians).

The only other time I pointed something out to a fellow cyclist was when they had veered into another lane to overtake a parked bus without a hand signal or a glance over their shoulder. Their rear wheel ended up a few centimeters from the front bumper of a car they crossed in front of. Again, confused look on their face when I pointed out how close to having an accident they were. Completely oblivious. Id like to think that maybe they might think the next time but that might be wishful thinking.

It gets me thinking, should we as cyclists be calling out illegal or dangerous behavior of other cyclists (could include pedestrians/motorists but this is a cycling forum so focusing on fellow cyclists)? Have you ever done it? Do you think it would affect behavior if more people did it through a type of social pressure or do you think the blind / ignorant will just continue to be no matter what do is a waste of time?

I don't think it is up to cyclists to police other cyclists, or that they should be expected to, but the way I see it is I am also a motorist and a pedestrian so such behavior affects me in situations where I can't then challenge them as it is easier for a cyclist (and pedestrian) to move off quickly e.g. Cycling through a pedestrian crossing while im crossing on green or a pedestrian running across the road in front of cyclists etc. So I feel we should as cyclists point out illegal or dangerous behavior to other cyclists because we can - for the sake of road safety. What do you think?

Tell me how · 17-10-2019 3:42am

I wouldn't necessarily ignore the opportunity if it presented itself as it did with you yesterday (obvious case where someone remonstrated with one person and then did something incorrect themselves) but I wouldn't be trying to say it to every cyclist every time any more than I'd say it currently to every motorist, every motorcyclist, every cyclist or every pedestrian.

I had a similar incident on a Sunday ride with someone once where they went in to a petrol station to tackle someone who had cut us off but 5 km later he did something dangerous himself. I said it to him that day but I don't go out of my way trying to correct everyone.

a148pro · 17-10-2019 8:25am

Worst behaviour on dublin roads I see by an identifiable road group, by far, is by cyclists. Granted, they rarely endanger anyone apart from themselves but it just leads to lack of respect for us as a group.

monkeyslayer · 17-10-2019 8:30am

I saw a woman one morning on the quays falling off her bike as a bus slowed down ahead of her to pull in, looked kind of bizzare. I pulled up to help her etc and she thanked me saying, and she actually said this 'she didn't know how to balance when the bike was going slow'. She coukdn believe it when I went on to say if that's the case then she doesn't actually know how to cycle a bike and that the city centre probably isn't the place to figure it out... She thanked me for the help but then said she couldv done without the lecture...

ednwireland · 17-10-2019 8:35am

rarely worth it, people,who do stuff are either oblivious (so they will just keep doing it and dont see anything wrong with their behaviour) or its a genuine mistake (so they know they did something and probably arent deliberatly going to do it again)

and yes im just as bad as evryone else - good thing is theres only 1 set of traffic lights within 40kms of me in any direction and thats a pedestrian crossing outside a school

magicbastarder · 17-10-2019 8:40am

last time i ended up saying anything to a cyclist he ended up standing in the middle of the road, challenging me to a bout in which i suspect the queensberry rules did not apply.

dermabrasion · 17-10-2019 8:41am

I do think we should call out bad behaviour, but in all walks of life, not just cycling. People who ignore the rules are enabled that we have a culture in Ireland that does not call out rule breaking. They rely on the free pass of the 'F*#^-off' rebuttal gives them.
I do call out cyclist (when I'm on the bike). I have a threshold of where their action causes a pedestrian or car has to take evasive action, or they are clearly a danger tho themselves.

Bambaata · 17-10-2019 8:58am

I see numerous examples every commute. I generally give them the old "disappointed in you" head shake as I wizz by after catching them. That puts them in their place!!

punisher5112 · 17-10-2019 9:01am

Guy in work cycles but goes at cyclists when driving....

When he is on the bicycle he is a nut and cycles the wrong way and through reds etc.

Cloudio9 · 17-10-2019 9:10am

monkeyslayer wrote: »

She coukdn believe it when I went on to say if that's the case then she doesn't actually know how to cycle a bike and that the city centre probably isn't the place to figure it out... She thanked me for the help but then said she couldv done without the lecture...

Of course she reacted that way, that's a really negative way to engage with a complete stranger.

MarkR · 17-10-2019 9:12am

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Of course she reacted that way, that's a really negative way to engage with a complete stranger.

She fell off the bike behind the bus. Could as easily have been in front of it.

Roadtoad · 17-10-2019 9:13am

In the car or on the motorbike I'll never knowingly break traffic lights or be sloppy about lane discipline.
Walking or cycling I'll find it harder to be as absolute. Do I always wait for the 'green man' if the road is empty? No. Do I sometimes do a slow left roll around a quiet t-junction? Yes.

Perhaps its a measure of harm I can inflict that shines this grey light. I'll always try harder when kids are present, near schools etc.

The biggest sin pedestrians and cyclists commit is being poorly lit in poor ambient light. I'll always try to have good lights, whether walking or cycling.

Cloudio9 · 17-10-2019 9:15am

MarkR wrote: »

She fell off the bike behind the bus. Could as easily have been in front of it.

Yeah and wording the advice differently would've resulted in a positive reaction.

Macy0161 · 17-10-2019 9:18am

Only thing I've ever called out is no lights. Normally as "I think the battery has died in your rear light"...

a148pro wrote: »

Worst behaviour on dublin roads I see by an identifiable road group, by far, is by cyclists. Granted, they rarely endanger anyone apart from themselves but it just leads to lack of respect for us as a group.

Really - you don't see all the motorists speeding? Speeding is so normalised it's not even seen as bad behaviour.

brocbrocach · 17-10-2019 9:36am

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Yeah and wording the advice differently would've resulted in a positive reaction.

Yep, tis all about positivity now, you should've told her she's a great girl to be out in her own and that it's not the fall that kills you but the cars that follow up.

Tombo2001 · 17-10-2019 9:40am

I completely agree. The business of cycling through pedestrian crossings when people are walking across, I have a big difficulty with that.

There are a few issues with this

The first is, with reference to your wording, "illegal or dangerous behaviour".

Personally, I only have a major gripe with the latter. They are not always the same thing. For example contra flow against one way streets is allowed in some areas, and not in others. Cycling is allowed in some public parks and not in others. Cycle lanes travel along footpaths and then abruptly stop.

The law is not always consistent, and I don't see any issue with cyclists going against traffic in a one way street in quiet residential area where speed limit is 30k.

The next is dangerous behaviour, and yes you are bang on. Particularly as we cant, as cyclists, call for better driver behaviour and overlook bad cyclist behaviour.

Having said all that - we do need to remember that:
- Public discourse around poor cyclists behaviour far outweighs the amount of cyclists that behave badly; on a relative basis.
For example, this notion that cyclists 'own' red light breaking when on any given day in O'Connell street several thousand punters are jaywalking.

What value does it add for cyclists to be also whingeing about cyclists in public forums, when motorists and newspapers do such a good job of it already.

Tombo2001 · 17-10-2019 9:50am

Macy0161 wrote: »

Only thing I've ever called out is no lights. Normally as "I think the battery has died in your rear light"...

Really - you don't see all the motorists speeding? Speeding is so normalised it's not even seen as bad behaviour.

Normalised driver activity that is not seen as bad behaviour
- Breaking the lights 'just as they turn red'
- nipping into the bus lane early with the left indicator on
- the aul phone obviously
- parking on the footpath
- lashing the hazards on and parking in the cycle lane or bus lane.

Of course drivers don't see the issues with bad driver behaviour.

I had to laugh there in local area Facebook group this irate punter posted footage photo of some ne'er do well snooping around his car at 5am on a Sunday morning.

All the comments, shocking, why do the guards do nothing, should be locked up blah blah blah.

I was wondering what the reaction would have been if I'd pointed out that the only illegal activity in the photo was a car parked on the footpath.....

What ye think? Should I do it?

07Lapierre · 17-10-2019 9:53am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Normalised driver activity that is not seen as bad behaviour
- Breaking the lights 'just as they turn red'
- nipping into the bus lane early with the left indicator on
- the aul phone obviously
- parking on the footpath
- lashing the hazards on and parking in the cycle lane or bus lane.

Of course drivers don't see the issues with bad driver behaviour.

I had to laugh there in local area Facebook group this irate punter posted footage photo of some ne'er do well snooping around his car at 5am on a Sunday morning.

All the comments, shocking, why do the guards do nothing, should be locked up blah blah blah.

I was wondering what the reaction would have been if I'd pointed out that the only illegal activity in the photo was a car parked on the footpath.....

What ye think? Should I do it?

Tombo2001 · 17-10-2019 9:53am

a148pro wrote: »

Worst behaviour on dublin roads I see by an identifiable road group, by far, is by cyclists. Granted, they rarely endanger anyone apart from themselves but it just leads to lack of respect for us as a group.

Interested to hear your justification for this comment.

How- comparatively - is cyclist behaviour worse than driver or pedestrian.

I don't personally see how you can reach this conclusion.

What behaviour are you talking about.

monkeyslayer · 17-10-2019 10:00am

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Of course she reacted that way, that's a really negative way to engage with a complete stranger.

droidus · 17-10-2019 10:24am

Dangerous behaviour, yes, preferably before it happens. Ive shouted at cyclists going to the left of left turning HGVs and suggested to others that the red light should be on the back of their bike and not the front.

'Illegal' behavior? F*ck that. 90% of illegal behaviour I see from cyclists is harmless. When Im walking down the road I dont give out to pedestrians who cross before the green man.

Large bottle small glass · 17-10-2019 10:27am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUKfwQt4yQU

Effects · 17-10-2019 10:52am

punisher5112 wrote: »

Guy in work cycles but goes at cyclists when driving....
When he is on the bicycle he is a nut and cycles the wrong way and through reds etc.

I know a guy just like that. Goes through red lights and one way streets on his bike all the time. When in the car he beeps and does punishment passes to any cyclist that holds him up.

Effects · 17-10-2019 10:53am

Found this woman mildly amusing for 2 minutes. Think she's just a little touched.

Instagram crazy lady

oLoonatic · 17-10-2019 10:59am

I was stopped at a set of traffic lights yesterday and a cyclist blew through red light. A driver actually rolled down his window and said to me " Thats what gives you guys a bad name" which was refreshing to hear. Its a very complex discussion but it goes back to the whole "it wont happen to me" mentality.

Tombo2001 · 17-10-2019 11:01am

oLoonatic wrote: »

I was stopped at a set of traffic lights yesterday and a cyclist blew through red light. A driver actually rolled down his window and said to me " Thats what gives you guys a bad name" which was refreshing to hear. Its a very complex discussion but it goes back to the whole "it wont happen to me" mentality.

That and a relentlessly negative press campaign, and the highly entitled standpoint of drivers who can see everyone elses faults but not their own.

This has to be a balanced discussion.

Are you pointing at drivers breaking red lights, and saying that's what gives you lot a bad name.

Is the driver above looking at same and saying - that's what gives us a bad name.

Its always the cyclists...…

I always go back to something I heard a pastor in America say with regard to why abortion and homosexuality is such a big issue for the American Christian far right; while say liberal gun laws are not

Its simple: people only give out about the sins that don't apply to them.

The statistics say that cyclists do NOT cause traffic accidents or casualties to anything like the same extent as motorists. After that, its all just whingeing about sins that don't apply to you.

buffalo · 17-10-2019 11:29am

oLoonatic wrote: »

I was stopped at a set of traffic lights yesterday and a cyclist blew through red light. A driver actually rolled down his window and said to me " Thats what gives you guys a bad name" which was refreshing to hear. Its a very complex discussion but it goes back to the whole "it wont happen to me" mentality.

How on earth is that refreshing!? It's bloody frustrating that you're being tainted and judged by the actions of a total stranger, over whom you have zero control or influence, barring vigilante justice.

steamsey · 17-10-2019 11:31am

I've realised the absolute pointlessness of trying to moderate road user behaviour myself. So - I stay put at red lights, I'm as considerate as I can be and I ignore anyone in a bad mood loosing their rag. I just don't get involved. If you're not getting paid to do it then leave it alone. Set an example - forget about giving out to people. Get home safe and calm. It's much better.

magicbastarder · 17-10-2019 11:37am

buffalo wrote: »

How on earth is that refreshing!? It's bloody frustrating that you're being tainted and judged by the actions of a total stranger, over whom you have zero control or influence, barring vigilante justice.

agree wholeheartedly; if the situation had been reversed, and the cyclist saying to the motorist 'it's other motorists like that which give you guys a bad name', he'd have looked at you as if you had two heads.

oLoonatic · 17-10-2019 11:37am

buffalo wrote: »

How on earth is that refreshing!? It's bloody frustrating that you're being tainted and judged by the actions of a total stranger, over whom you have zero control or influence, barring vigilante justice.

Refreshing from the point of view, that the particular motorist doesn't tar everyone with the same brush and can recognize that its not all cyclists.

droidus · 17-10-2019 11:41am

oLoonatic wrote: »

I was stopped at a set of traffic lights yesterday and a cyclist blew through red light. A driver actually rolled down his window and said to me " Thats what gives you guys a bad name" which was refreshing to hear. Its a very complex discussion but it goes back to the whole "it wont happen to me" mentality.

You would have been justified if you punched him in the face. I went past a queue of about 30 cars yesterday, and 11 drivers were on their phones. Saw 18 blatant RLJs by cars on the same 10 mile cycle.

IIRC , about 30,000 people have been killed in car accidents since the late 70s. I think five have been killed in accidents involving cyclists in the same period.

punisher5112 · 17-10-2019 11:45am

I have been hit twice crossing on a green and hit twice on a footpath....

Funnily though I was ready for the ones on the footpath....

Sent one into a wall.

The other got my shoulder and he went flying as did his bike which ended up hitting two of his drug addict friends walking towards us....

Gob****es

buffalo · 17-10-2019 12:35pm

oLoonatic wrote: »

Refreshing from the point of view, that the particular motorist doesn't tar everyone with the same brush and can recognize that its not all cyclists.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. You said he said "Thats what gives you guys a bad name", which is reinforcing the tarring of all cyclists with the same brush.

If he'd said "look at that one muppet", that could be interpreted differently.

However, you were there, so maybe there were some tonal inferences or facial expressions that we're missing.

biko · 17-10-2019 12:38pm

axer wrote: »

I don't think it is up to cyclists to police other cyclists, or that they should be expected to

How wil the dangerous cyclists break their bad habits unless someone calls them out on it?
I'd rather another cyclist told me when I did something bad than someone in a car.

Tenzor07 · 17-10-2019 1:08pm

The main point is that "Cyclists" aren't some homogeneous group, no more than bus passengers, car drivers, pedestrians...

If you spent your day going around trying to correct what you see in your opinion as dangerous behavior or trying to say another individual has done what you in your unqualified opinion thinks is lawbreaking, then you'll get yourself into trouble and cause yourself high blood pressure..

If you see something illegal and dangerous, report it to the authorities.

magicbastarder · 17-10-2019 1:15pm

i generally don't call people out on things unless it affects me or happens so close to me that it's nearly in my face. for example, i pass multiple cyclists without lights; i think i've only ever remarked on that once because it was a dark road and i genuinely didn't see the cyclist till i was nearly on top of him. as per a suggestion above i just called out 'your light batteries are flat' or words to that effect.

punisher5112 · 17-10-2019 1:20pm

I find a lot of aggression out there and everyone is in such a hurry they couldn't give a sh1t about anything but themselves.

ciotog · 17-10-2019 1:25pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I completely agree. The business of cycling through pedestrian crossings when people are walking across, I have a big difficulty with that.

This really pisses me off; it's intimidating for pedestrians. If people cycling are going be "flexible" on red lights and get a head start on people driving then at least be respectful of people walking. I'm off the mind that when we cycle we should treat pedestrians with the level of courtesy we'd really like to see from people driving

Taxuser1 · 17-10-2019 1:28pm

I feel a duty to berate motor and cycling bad behavior on my commute. I think I’m now hated by the whole commuting fraternity. It fills me with such joy especially ahead of a busy day at work. a good berating. Nothing better.

Moflojo · 17-10-2019 1:28pm

oLoonatic wrote: »

I was stopped at a set of traffic lights yesterday and a cyclist blew through red light. A driver actually rolled down his window and said to me " Thats what gives you guys a bad name"

Did your being stopped at the red light not give cyclists a good name though, no?

People with an existing prejudice or bias will only notice the bad behaviour which reinforces that bias.

I don't accept the notion that if we all (>90% of us?) behaved ourselves that we'd suddenly be respected by drivers.

Anti-cyclist prejudice is borne out of driver frustration with being trapped in a totally dysfunctional transport system. Drivers have been sold the dream of freedom and speed, but find themselves stuck in their (toxic) boxes going nowhere - and paying a premium for the privilege.

Cyclists are an easy, soft target to vent their frustration at: Look at all these people who pay very little to cycle, but who manage to skip all the traffic queues - they must be cheating somehow, right?

Ruraldweller56 · 17-10-2019 1:29pm

What about cyclists who don't bother using the cycling lanes? There's a road near me with a cycling lane running close by. I seldom see any cyclists using it.

boombang · 17-10-2019 1:31pm

About a year ago I saw a cyclist (on green) totally t-boned by a cyclist breaking red. The guy with the green was going at (legitimate) speed and could do nothing.

I really had to hold myself back from roaring at the offending cyclist as the two men picked themselves up.

magicbastarder · 17-10-2019 1:33pm

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

What about cyclists who don't bother using the cycling lanes? There's a road near me with a cycling lane running close by. I seldom see any cyclists using it.

have you checked out why the cycle lane is unused? could be an absolute mess of a design.

micar · 17-10-2019 1:33pm

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

What about cyclists who don't bother using the cycling lanes? .

Because cyclists don't have to use them.

Various reasons why a cyclist would not use it.

Tenzor07 · 17-10-2019 1:35pm

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

What about cyclists who don't bother using the cycling lanes? There's a road near me with a cycling lane running close by. I seldom see any cyclists using it.

Whatabout,whatabout all the car drivers who don't use the Motorways? We paid good money for them by our income tax, the least drivers should do is use them all the time?

GreeBo · 17-10-2019 1:39pm

buffalo wrote: »

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. You said he said "Thats what gives you guys a bad name", which is reinforcing the tarring of all cyclists with the same brush.

If he'd said "look at that one muppet", that could be interpreted differently.

However, you were there, so maybe there were some tonal inferences or facial expressions that we're missing.

Tarring all cyclists with the brush of being cyclists?

Ruraldweller56 · 17-10-2019 1:41pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Whatabout,whatabout all the car drivers who don't use the Motorways? We paid good money for them by our income tax, the least drivers should do is use them all the time?

Nonsensical and disingenuous comment. That's as much as I'll say on it. If you really think that's the same thing then it would take way too long to get through to your brain how it's not the same thing.

GreeBo · 17-10-2019 1:42pm

Breaking the rules and getting away with it is being a cute whore in Ireland and seen as a good thing, be that jumping lights in a bike or knowinging using the wrong lane to skip traffic and then blocking your lane as you cut back in with your car, its asshattery but done by thousands every day and they think those who dont do it are muppets.

Ruraldweller56 · 17-10-2019 1:43pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

have you checked out why the cycle lane is unused? could be an absolute mess of a design.

I haven't. But I can't see the sense in using a busy dual carriageway when there's a purpose built cycling lane running parallel to it.

micar · 17-10-2019 1:45pm

Once roared at a cyclist to stop as he was in the middle of undertaking a lorry turning left.

Once spoke to a cyclist after I had caught up who had raced through raced through a red light almost being t boned by a car. All I said was "you're going to get yourself killed cycling like that". He didn't like that. He went to chase me.....I just took off.

When I see sh1t from cyclist I just shake my head.

Weepsie · 17-10-2019 1:45pm

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Nonsensical and disingenuous comment. That's as much as I'll say on it. If you really think that's the same thing then it would take way too long to get through to your brain how it's not the same thing.

It's no more nonsense than yours though. Most cycle lanes are pretty crap.

If you told a driver they'd have to go over debris, around lamposts, yield every 20-50 metres and that their lane will just stop they'd take a different lane without that.

Calling out fellow cyclists for illegal or dangerous behavior

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