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Seen & Found
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I would assume that the "moon" portion of Ballymoon, shares the same etymology as "Muine" portion of nearby Muine-beag... William Petty seems to pronounce both placenames as "money" which ties in this association, with his spellings "monibeg" & "ballimony" in c1650. The implication is therefore in my mind that the Muine portion at least is an old placename.. The bally bit may have come later, and it seems to be associated with the present day settlement & church which lies good bit to the West of the castle & earthworks.
The earliest versions of the Ballymoon name are Balimoan (1280) and Ballemone (1549). There are many other instances up to
the Down Survey 1655, all of which have the single syllable -moan -moane -moon ending. The DS has the first instance of the two syllable -monny,
which can signify muine, like Ballymoney in Wicklow which is given as Baile Muine, and many other Ballymoneys. However the earlier versions of a placename
is normally taken to be the more accurate, since the spellings were more likely to be phonetic.Do you know much about the history of Ballywilliamroe? That mercator map features a settlement called "Wil.Roeys'town", and The castle seems to have been listed within that townland in the Downs Survey and other references.... Was there a person called William Roey?
Maybe Wil. Roeys' town could explain the earthworks around the castle?
There is a possible identification in the O'Nolan clan, who were close allies of the Kavanaghs and held the barony of Forth in central Carlow for many hundreds of years.
Grant no 125 in the Calendar of Ormond Deeds Vol 5, p.137 has:
"William Roo O'Nolan of Garrygroghan. county Carlow, gentleman, grants to Sir Edmund Butler of Cloughgrenan, all his possessions in Ballyteample in
said county, to him and his heirs and assigns for ever.
Redmund Purcell of Tullaghfelem and Nicholas Tywe of the same, yeomen. to deliver seisin.
February 20, 1564."
It just might be that William Roo O'Nolan was William Roe of Ballywilliamroe. It might seem also that Ballyteample was "Town of the Temple", i.e. Ballymoon castle. That would have made a neat solution to all of this.
However, another document, the Will of James Earl of Ormond in 1546, shows that Ballytemple was just another name for Chapelstown,
east of Carlow town, which goes to show that all is not what it first appears to be. William Roo O'Nolan is the only person I have found so far who could be a possible candidate for our William Roe/y. The search is ongoing.0 -
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It looks very much like a classic motte and bailey, in the Bing and OSI imagery.http://binged.it/OoTnyX - Something Similar Looking.. Listed on the NMS with a rather vague description: A hilltop enclosure. Any thoughts?
The fact that it is not mentioned in the SMR could indicate that it is thought (rightly or wrongly) to be a feature of C.18th landscaping - a folly perhaps.
Pathways certainly paid respect to the feature in the first edition map.
Whatever the feature is, it could be the locus described by existing roads, which in turn, might follow the remnants of earlier features.
This becomes quite evident if you pan out (see image below).
If the 'motte and bailey' is a C.18th folly - it's of historical, rather than archaeological interest.
My gut tells me that the mound is the real feature, rather than the obvious earthworks, and that the roads describe the earlier structure.
It's an interesting find!
It would be very interesting to know more.
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http://binged.it/QBCT8o - Could this be a Crannóg? It's very low lying in the water, and totally submerged on some of the osi aerial surveys. It has a diameter of 25m or so...
There seems to be a strong underwater linear feature protuding in an south-westerly direction on this image (1995 osi aerial survey)..
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http://binged.it/QBCT8o - Could this be a Crannóg? It's very low lying in the water, and totally submerged on some of the osi aerial surveys. It has a diameter of 25m or so...
There seems to be a strong underwater linear feature protuding in an south-westerly direction on this image (1995 osi aerial survey)..
Such an interesting find Simon.d. Don't know the Area personally bar lots of bing imaging and google earth... I did visit loughcrew for a day a few months ago and was impressed by how big a vantage you get from Cairn T... here's a link to a blog that has some nice photos from there this Autumn Equinox just passed - one of the two alignment times for this particular cairn.
The concentric feature you show here looks manmade alright (my opinion is all!) very like a crannóg. It's right at the mouth of the 'upper inny river' according to the bingmap link attached... you'd have a lot of silt and sediment that would easily cover up any features tehere with time!!
Although, if you look at the bingmap, the silted water itself near the mouth of the river gives impression of a straight line feature where it meets the clearer lake water.0 -
Its a tricky one, many of those reed-beds tend to develop in a circular fashion, which makes them very deceptive like this one:
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=53.457636~-7.424422&lvl=15&dir=0&sty=h&form=LMLTCC
The small island visible in the image is a definite confirmed Crannog, I've snorkelled around it a number of times and stakes are still visible in the lake bed, whereas the reed beds nearby, although circular in shape, have no visible evidence of any Stakes or construction.
The best way to confirm it would be a quick inspection. some of the local sub-aqua clubs might have a look for you on a Sunday outing or training dive. Some do visit Sheelin as a training for the unfortunate call-outs we get every few years.0 -
AngryHippie wrote: »Its a tricky one, many of those reed-beds tend to develop in a circular fashion, which makes them very deceptive like this one:
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=53.457636~-7.424422&lvl=15&dir=0&sty=h&form=LMLTCC
The small island visible in the image is a definite confirmed Crannog, I've snorkelled around it a number of times and stakes are still visible in the lake bed, whereas the reed beds nearby, although circular in shape, have no visible evidence of any Stakes or construction.
The best way to confirm it would be a quick inspection. some of the local sub-aqua clubs might have a look for you on a Sunday outing or training dive. Some do visit Sheelin as a training for the unfortunate call-outs we get every few years.
Agree completely... Would love if someone in the area could have a look.. !
However what makes me think it's unlikely to be a reed bed (or some other vegetation based feature) is it's geometric stability, as in the aerial imagery covering a near 20 year period (1995 - present), the feature has maintained it's shape, diameter and location.. One would expect vegetation to be a little more dynamic..0 -
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AngryHippie wrote: »Perhaps something to do with the adjacent church ?
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,573392,681435,7,9
Or the marked Castle (site of) to the east
Must be some relation..
Some local history:
Found a Reference here to castle in Castletownara, the parish in question, essentially a Eulogy to the Lord, one Mac I-Brien of Arra in 1601 AD.
Looks like his son Murtogh was the Anglican Bishop of Killaloe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murtogh_O%27Brien-Arra
Here's Ballad/Poem about the O'Briens of Ara: http://www.archive.org/stream/poemsofthomasdav00davi#page/n131/mode/2up/search/ara
The Archaeological record has assigned the following to the Fortified house:
Described in the Civil Survey (1654-6) as the 'castle of castletowne situated close by the shannon together with a Barbicon(i.e gatehouse) and a slate house' (Simington 1934, vol. 2, 153). Donogh O Bryen is listed as proprietor in 1640 (ibid.).
I'm thinking that the "Castle" observed in the 1830 osi was possibly the gatehouse to the O'Brien's castle, and that this rectangular feature was potentially the actual castle site, the castle itself is likely to have been destrioyed by Cromwell. There's a fortified house very close by, possibly built by the post cromwell estate owners, the Parkers, who may have robbed out the original castle walls to contruct their own dwelling, leaving only earthworks behind.0 -
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I'm from the area and will be down that way this weekend if I can be of any assistance.
The nearby church is full of graves of the Parker family and also these unusual grave slabs. http://www.mythicalireland.com/other/skullandcrossbones.php
You didn't spot anything else unusual around that area?
It'd be great to see if there's any remains of the "Castle" listed on the OSI maps, to see if it fits with being a potential gatehouse.. Any sort of feed back would be great..
The following is a map (c1650) depicts the castle to north of the church, with what could be the "eight thatched tenements" forming what looks to be street in between.. Which goes against the hypothesis of the rectangular feature being a castle at this time. Implying that the fortified house (http://binged.it/QJDwfY) was the O'Brien castle in this period...
Of note though is the area just to the south called "Balliwilliam", which to my mind has norman connotations... So Rectangular feature could be an early moated site?0 -
It'd be great to see if there's any remains of the "Castle" listed on the OSI maps, to see if it fits with being a potential gatehouse.. Any sort of feed back would be great..
The following is a map (c1650) depicts the castle to north of the church, with what could be the "eight thatched tenements" forming what looks to be street in between.. Which goes against the hypothesis of the rectangular feature being a castle at this time. Implying that the fortified house (http://binged.it/QJDwfY) was the O'Brien castle in this period...
Of note though is the area just to the south called "Balliwilliam", which to my mind has norman connotations... So Rectangular feature could be an early moated site?
Looking at the map and from knowing the area its not (well pretty obviously) to scale.
If you check out the old 25" maps here http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,573620,681321,7,9 - the castle is "site of" rather than "in ruins" on the 6" map. Therefore I wonder did they know where the site of the older castle was? This opens the possibility as you point out above to it being your earthwok.
In regards to the long "street" on the map, I'm wondering is this perhaps a new road that was built leading up to Castlelough house. Personally I always thought that this road was very straight (noticeably so compared to every other road in the vicinity)
There is an tower-house and a mill to the north of the church. The church dates to the 16th / 17th. There are some old ruins attached to the tower-house (17th Century) and on archaeology.ie the following is mentioned Described in the Civil Survey (1654-6) as the 'castle of castletowne situated close by the shannon together with a Barbicon and a slate house'
Perhaps this is confused with the site of castle?
Both the church (which originally was protestant - now is a catholic burial ground), tower house and mill could possibly have been built from the remains of a castle that was repossessed in the 17th century.
The view of the 17th century towerhouse as per google streetview - http://maps.google.ie/maps/ms?msid=215105191614107316540.000496fe4eb2042b5af20&msa=0&ll=52.884391,-8.395698&spn=0.014528,0.0422720 -
Therefore I wonder did they know where the site of the older castle was? This opens the possibility as you point out above to it being your earthwok.
I'd say it's likely that the earthworks are contemporay with what ever was observed at this position by the OSI in c1830.. They have some sort of structure drawn in, so I'd say some sort of ruinous stone structure was standing at the time... There may have been an earlier phase of castle building dating back to the 13th/14th centuries at the site, either Norman or Native...Both the church (which originally was protestant - now is a catholic burial ground), tower house and mill could possibly have been built from the remains of a castle that was repossessed in the 17th century.
I'm not so sure.. The following implies that two castles (Castletown and Castlelough), the Church and the Mill existed before the confiscations, and under the ownship of the Papist Donogh O'Brien, which matches up with the current archaeological record..
Petty's maps (though he may have squeezed alot of info into this townland) are usally quite accurate.. But would be nice to see the actual Downsurvey maps of the townland, to be a bit more confident of the relative layout of the structures..0 -
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I'd say it's likely that the earthworks are contemporay with what ever was observed at this position by the OSI in c1830.. They have some sort of structure drawn in, so I'd say some sort of ruinous stone structure was standing at the time... There may have been an earlier phase of castle building dating back to the 13th/14th centuries at the site, either Norman or Native...
I'm not so sure.. The following implies that two castles (Castletown and Castlelough), the Church and the Mill existed before the confiscations, and under the ownship of the Papist Donogh O'Brien, which matches up with the current archaeological record..
Petty's maps (though he may have squeezed alot of info into this townland) are usally quite accurate.. But would be nice to see the actual Downsurvey maps of the townland, to be a bit more confident of the relative layout of the structures..
Well I think we can agree that the earthwork on bing isn't recorded anyway. What it was I guess we can't really say.
The is another castle in this area on a island to the north.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,573696,682934,7,7 - so that probably muddies the water further. "Situated on an island, c. 20m in diam., on Lough Derg, near Castlelough. A ruinous tower house composed of randomly coursed sandstone rubble with sandstone quoins. The S wall (T 2.25m) survives to a length of 4.7m while the E wall is 5.8m long, though it continues in a very ruinous state for a further 9m. The ground floor has the remains of a vault springing from the E wall. The W and S walls have collapsed. The SE angle survives to four storeys. Some repairs have been done at second-floor level with concrete but the tower house is in a very collapsed state. There are mural stairs in the E wall and a short passage c. 2m long before the stairs turn into the S wall. A crude flat-headed loop lights the passage in the S wall and is a probable rebuild. Above the mural stairs on the E wall at second-floor level is a deep embrasure but the window has collapsed. Large chunks of collapsed masonry lie around the site."
- taken from Archaeology.ie
I might take the dog for a walk around that area this weekend anyway and see if I can turn up anything.0 -
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