organic farming

Willfarman · 03-04-2017 4:18am

If doing organic sheep are you allowed to winter graze them on non organic land?

tractorporn · 03-04-2017 8:20am

Willfarman wrote:

If doing organic sheep are you allowed to winter graze them on non organic land?

No if they graze non organic land the will lose their organic status you can work it the other way tho. If you have organic sheep you would be allowed bring in non organic cattle to graze for 120 days but they have to be managed organically while they are there.

Willfarman · 03-04-2017 9:01am

tractorporn wrote: »

No if they graze non organic land the will lose their organic status you can work it the other way tho. If you have organic sheep you would be allowed bring in non organic cattle to graze for 120 days but they have to be managed organically while they are there.

Other question. Is it possible to buy calves from a conventional farmer and rear them organically? Or would the milk powder be disallowed?

tractorporn · 03-04-2017 11:10am

kowtow wrote:

When I look at organic milking herds in the UK doing 6 or 7k litres it strikes me that it is an option at least for irish farms.

kowtow wrote:

What are the major constraints... on stocking rate for example particularly if like many dairy farmers the milking platform is heavily stocked but silage etc grown on outfarm.

kowtow wrote:

I know organic feed is a problem presumably in an ideal world grown on farm?

kowtow wrote:

How do people manage the transition from intensive rotational grass to organic? And What about weed control?

Organic dairying looks to be the most viable of any farm enterprise in Ireland at the moment. If I wasn't so fragmented here I would look to go down that route. Was at two organic dairy farm walks in the past 12 months prices were quoted of 60c/litre for a six month winter and 40c/litre for the summer.

Both farms I was on have cut numbers the guy in Portlaoise went from 180 come on 80Ha to 110 cows but is starting to rise numbers again. The guy in Westmeath had a SR of 1.8LU/Ha

There are two main constraints as I see it to organic dairying. To get a contract you must be willing to have 80% winter milk and organic feed is 550/ton so it's costly. Some guys are getting great results from red clover silage but you will still need to feed. The other thing is there are less than 40 organic dairy farms in the country. It wouldn't take a lot to flood that and end up with the same price as the conventional guys.

tractorporn · 03-04-2017 11:13am

Willfarman wrote:

Other question. Is it possible to buy calves from a conventional farmer and rear them organically? Or would the milk powder be disallowed?

Once you join all your inputs must be organic and that includes your stock so the only time you can buy conventional stock is a heifer for breeding and even then you can only apply for 10% of your adult stock.

Milk replacer is not allowed only for emergencies. There is only one guy in Ireland buying calves and feeding them but he is also buying milk from the same farmer as the calves and feeding them that.

03-04-2017 1:56pm

kowtow wrote: »

When I look at organic milking herds in the UK doing 6 or 7k litres it strikes me that it is an option at least for irish farms.

What are the major constraints... on stocking rate for example particularly if like many dairy farmers the milking platform is heavily stocked but silage etc grown on outfarm.

I know organic feed is a problem presumably in an ideal world grown on farm?

How do people manage the transition from intensive rotational grass to organic? And What about weed control?

Very technical questions to be asking a beef Farmer!
Feed is expensive for dairy and otherwise, red clover seems to factor massively and homegrown crops also. Under sowing seems to manage weeds in new pasture.

I think you just have to accept a lower stocking rate, knowing that you have less inputs,higher margin on product and the grant to make up for the lack of numbers.

blue5000 · 03-04-2017 2:18pm

How long does red clover last? I have some going into it's third season this year.

tractorporn · 03-04-2017 2:44pm

blue5000 wrote:

How long does red clover last? I have some going into it's third season this year.

Have seen some in its 6th year but it had been exclusively for 3 cut silage and was never grazed. I have some here going into it's 3rd year and the clover is nearly gone it's on a peat soil and it's really not suited to it at all.

03-04-2017 2:50pm

blue5000 wrote: »

How long does red clover last? I have some going into it's third season this year.

I'm told 5 years. Really have to mind it though. Seemingly if you cut it to low or put too much weight on it you damage it.

Most organic guys I have spoken to use it for 2/3 years to build N then take oat's off it for 2 years.

Edit to day tractorporn above is a lot more detailed than me!

cahergowan · 03-04-2017 3:16pm

questions please , we will do our best

blue5000 · 03-04-2017 3:19pm

I've never grazed mine and only cut it twice a year, but it was mowed a bit low last year alright. I hear it needs a high pH, 7 if possible. We have that where it is.

tractorporn · 03-04-2017 3:51pm

blue5000 wrote:

I've never grazed mine and only cut it twice a year, but it was mowed a bit low last year alright. I hear it needs a high pH, 7 if possible. We have that where it is.

Low mowing won't help the contractor here ruined the first few rounds by cutting too low. It's a serious feed though we finished bullocks on it alone this winter.

Muckit · 03-04-2017 3:54pm

If there was any crop I'd like to try, it would be this sometime.
Did you ever get it tested? Do you have to do a full reseed every 2-three years or do you overseed? Good management necessary I would think.

Willfarman · 03-04-2017 5:17pm

Have to say my ears are slightly pricked! In terms of milking cows would a herd of shorthorns, moderate yield but low input cows be viable? Anyone doing it?

kowtow · 03-04-2017 6:06pm

Willfarman wrote: »

Have to say my ears are slightly pricked! In terms of milking cows would a herd of shorthorns, moderate yield but low input cows be viable? Anyone doing it?

That was the thought which was crossing my mind. I know a good few doing it in the UK, and I know there are some shorthorn herds here but I don't think theres a lot of support from AI etc..

tractorporn · 03-04-2017 8:02pm

Muckit wrote:

If there was any crop I'd like to try, it would be this sometime. Did you ever get it tested? Do you have to do a full reseed every 2-three years or do you overseed? Good management necessary I would think.

I never tested it myself but at the farm walk they had tested and it was 78 DMD and 19% crude protein which is rocket fuel.

We put it in as a full reseed before we converted but it got no sprays or anything and yielded 25 bales to the acre over 3 cuts last year.

It doesn't need any nitrogen only Ps and Ks so you'd get a serious reaction to a bag of 0-7-30 if you had that option. In fact teagasc have done research that shows if clover gets nitrogen it gets lazy and actually grows better with no nitrogen.

White Clover · 03-04-2017 8:16pm

This red clover conversation has me thinking!
Tractorporn, you have it set on peat soil? What Ph is it? Are u happy with the yield? Do you wilt it before baling and what DM would you be baling it at?
Thanks

tractorporn · 03-04-2017 8:24pm

Willfarman wrote:

Have to say my ears are slightly pricked! In terms of milking cows would a herd of shorthorns, moderate yield but low input cows be viable? Anyone doing it?

kowtow wrote:

That was the thought which was crossing my mind. I know a good few doing it in the UK, and I know there are some shorthorn herds here but I don't think theres a lot of support from AI etc..

One of the best organic dairy herds in England is a pure bred Shorthorn herd. He's very active on twitter @jrfromstrickley he's president of the shorthorn association as well.

Those type of cows tend to do best in an organic system. A lot of lads are producing milk for cheese so are milking Rotbunt's, Montbellard's and Shorthorns for the solids.

tractorporn · 03-04-2017 8:36pm

White Clover wrote:

This red clover conversation has me thinking! Tractorporn, you have it set on peat soil? What Ph is it? Are u happy with the yield? Do you wilt it before baling and what DM would you be baling it at? Thanks

I can't understand why everyone isn't growing some! The ph was around 5.5 before I set the seed and it got 3 bags of gran lime but it wasn't enough I think. That and it was wet enough baling once last year and you could spot the tracks of the baler were the clover was missing.

I'm happy with the yield it gets noting here only a bit of dung in the spring. Proof is in the pudding and next year I have a piece of heavier clay earmarked for the next bit of red clover.

I usually give it a gentle turn with the lely rake, try and go slow at low revs. Like I said said I've never tested my own but try and get it as dry as I can before baling. Now the bales look manky when you open them the leaves of the clover turn black when fermenting but the cattle go mad for it. I better say we set the clover 50:50 with ryegrass/white clover silage mix it came from Cotswolds seeds. The grass helps with fermenting the clover.

Willfarman · 03-04-2017 9:45pm

Did the mri breed disappear? There was a herd of them locally here 20 years ago. We used to get an odd 3 spin cow and we loved them. Serious milk for two calves and their own would rival any continental. The here'd was depopulated with Tb.

keryl · 11-10-2017 2:40pm

Any updates from Organic Farmers? Im curious how everyone is getting on with the weather we've been having? Also the situation with straw?

Those that have used Red Clover, has it been successful or do you think more variety would be the go?

blue5000 · 12-10-2017 7:58pm

keryl wrote: »

Any updates from Organic Farmers? Im curious how everyone is getting on with the weather we've been having? Also the situation with straw?

Those that have used Red Clover, has it been successful or do you think more variety would be the go?

Not organic (yet) but I have red clover in it's 3rd year and it's still yielding well.

k mac · 02-12-2018 10:13pm

Has the organic scheme just reopened. Anyone thinking of converting??

anthony500_1 · 02-12-2018 10:28pm

k mac wrote:

Has the organic scheme just reopened. Anyone thinking of converting??

Yes I believe it has, teagasc are running farm open days from Jan on all types of organic farms. If a man could only live with the place full of docks thistles and rushes it would be a great scheme.

Info is up on Dept website as to what's required of individual farm practices

tractorporn · 02-12-2018 10:31pm

k mac wrote: »

Has the organic scheme just reopened. Anyone thinking of converting??

Yeah it's opened again and closing on the 19th. Doesn't seem to be open to everyone this time seems to be a marking system favouring horticulture, tillage and dairy.

sea12 · 02-12-2018 10:34pm

anthony500_1 wrote: »

Yes I believe it has, teagasc are running farm open days from Jan on all types of organic farms. If a man could only live with the place full of docks thistles and rushes it would be a great scheme.

Info is up on Dept website as to what's required of individual farm practices

Was talking to an organic farmer at a farm walk last week and he was very positive about it. It was very well kept farm

k mac · 02-12-2018 10:36pm

Closing again on the 19th December that's a very short window

tractorporn · 02-12-2018 10:41pm

k mac wrote: »

Closing again on the 19th December that's a very short window

Yeah it's tight enough but that's the way they want it. I'd say the numbers let in will be small enough too.

Birdnuts · 02-12-2018 10:53pm

sea12 wrote: »

Was talking to an organic farmer at a farm walk last week and he was very positive about it. It was very well kept farm

Did a farm walk a few years ago on Kim McCalls organic farm just outside Kilcullen. Place was top class with every level of production full intergrated and working in perfect harmony from an environemental and economic standpoint. Folks may know him as one of the top Aubrac breeders in the country

jfh · 04-12-2018 9:39am

seriously thinking of going into this, any cons from people who converted?
are cattle ok on slats or is it straw beds that they want.
also whats the 25hr course like?

tractorporn · 04-12-2018 2:38pm

jfh wrote: »

seriously thinking of going into this, any cons from people who converted?
are cattle ok on slats or is it straw beds that they want.
also whats the 25hr course like?

Course is handy enough I did it with teagasc and I was one day a week for 4 weeks.

You can have slats but the stock have to have a solid area to lie on and it has to be bedded as well. The area can be 50/50 slatted/solid

orchard farm · 04-12-2018 4:03pm

Main issues for cattle/sheep farms are housing has to be min 50%dry area with min space requirements per size of animal.min stocking rate0.5/ha.no chemicals sprays,nitrogen etc.dosing has more restrictions,meal has to be organic double price, if buying hay/ silage has to be organic too,organic grass seed is preferred but permission can be got for undressed seed. more record keeping and debudding of calves and castration need to be given anesthetic first.suits self stocking farms as only organic stock can be bought in.course has to be paid for also annual payment for organic certification circa 600euro,out from that??

tractorporn · 04-12-2018 4:07pm

orchard farm wrote: »

Main issues for cattle/sheep farms are housing has to be min 50%dry area with min space requirements per size of animal.min stocking rate0.5/ha.no chemicals sprays,nitrogen etc.dosing has more restrictions,meal has to be organic double price, if buying hay/ silage has to be organic too,organic grass seed is preferred but permission can be got for undressed seed. more record keeping and debudding of calves and castration need to be given anesthetic first.suits self stocking farms as only organic stock can be bought in.out from that??

Imo the anaesthetic for skulling and castration is gonna catch out a lot of lads, I know a few guys got a slap on the wrist this year for not having the piece of paperwork with the permission for skulling. It's extra work for zero eztra reward.

jfh · 04-12-2018 5:51pm

tractorporn wrote: »

Course is handy enough I did it with teagasc and I was one day a week for 4 weeks.

You can have slats but the stock have to have a solid area to lie on and it has to be bedded as well. The area can be 50/50 slatted/solid

yeah, that's me out so, no lie back area, going to work towards this tho & hopefully in 2021 be ready

_Brian · 04-12-2018 5:55pm

Can the access to dry bed shed be across the yard from slatted unit, feed in slatted unit but let access to either shed for them ?

orchard farm · 04-12-2018 6:20pm

_Brian wrote: »

Can the access to dry bed shed be across the yard from slatted unit, feed in slatted unit but let access to either shed for them ?

If it's freely accessible at all times don't see why not

wrangler · 04-12-2018 8:29pm

tractorporn wrote: »

Course is handy enough I did it with teagasc and I was one day a week for 4 weeks.

You can have slats but the stock have to have a solid area to lie on and it has to be bedded as well. The area can be 50/50 slatted/solid

Surely a straw bed on the slats will pass.Could 24 ft deep pens (double row slats) not have the back bedded

manjou · 04-12-2018 9:00pm

wrangler wrote: »

Surely a straw bed on the slats will pass.Could 24 ft deep pens (double row slats) not have the back bedded

no can't bed slats.l changed half the slats in 1 shed to solid slabs that had to be certified to carry tractor. Grant aided under tams. think this was brought in to stop slats colapsing under weight of tractor when cleaning out . cattle have to have access to bedded area all the time. you can use cubicles but not sure of regs on size and bedding.

Markcheese · 04-12-2018 9:05pm

manjou wrote: »

no can't bed slats.l changed half the slats in 1 shed to solid slabs that had to be certified to carry tractor. Grant aided under tams. think this was brought in to stop slats colapsing under weight of tractor when cleaning out . cattle have to have access to bedded area all the time. you can use cubicles but not sure of regs on size and bedding.

There have to more cubicles than animals, I think the size can depend on the size of your animals but think big... With plenty of lunge space, can't use peat for bedding either,

tractorporn · 04-12-2018 9:25pm

_Brian wrote: »

Can the access to dry bed shed be across the yard from slatted unit, feed in slatted unit but let access to either shed for them ?

Yeah you can have a run across a yard alright but the stock have to have access at all times. And you'd be more likely to have an unannounced visit from your inspector as well

tractorporn · 04-12-2018 9:26pm

wrangler wrote: »

Surely a straw bed on the slats will pass.Could 24 ft deep pens (double row slats) not have the back bedded

Used to be allowed but department changed the ruling two years ago.

tractorporn · 04-12-2018 9:29pm

Markcheese wrote: »

There have to more cubicles than animals, I think the size can depend on the size of your animals but think big... With plenty of lunge space, can't use peat for bedding either,

Peat is allowed for this year only a circular came out from the department earlier in the year. Afaik you don't have to have more cubicles than animals just as long as the cubicle provides the solid area for the animal and it has to be bedded with something as well

Centrepassage · 04-12-2018 9:46pm

Organic cattle commanded a premium price up until 5 years ago but not anymore. In fact it's the opposite now. Can't sell weanlings unless they are weaned for a couple of weeks. Cost of organic creep feed is twice normal price and low quality. Very hard to justify creep feeding at that cost. Without it they look very scrawny in mart beside cattle of manured land that are well fed.
Costs as much to bed organic cattle as to feed them for the winter in the west of Ireland. Great scheme no doubt but the red tape is crazy.

Albert Johnson · 05-12-2018 8:28pm

Centrepassage wrote: »

Organic cattle commanded a premium price up until 5 years ago but not anymore. In fact it's the opposite now. Can't sell weanlings unless they are weaned for a couple of weeks. Cost of organic creep feed is twice normal price and low quality. Very hard to justify creep feeding at that cost. Without it they look very scrawny in mart beside cattle of manured land that are well fed.
Costs as much to bed organic cattle as to feed them for the winter in the west of Ireland. Great scheme no doubt but the red tape is crazy.

I wouldn't agree about organic cattle not commanding a premium anymore. As I've commented before it's important to target the right stock at the appropriate time of year.

If it's possible to winter young stock I find that weanlings or lighter stores are usually the best trade in April and May most years. This is because a large percentage of organic farmers in my area of the north west are summer grazers. Well presented bullocks and heifers that are skulled and squeezed if appropriate will command top prices. Most of the part time lads only want to fulfill the stocking requirements and are prepared to pay for stock that are ready for grass with minimal effort on there part. Quality is a secondary consider for many and they'll buy bunches that are often very mixed regarding quality.

If you are unable to hold young stock for the winter and aim to sell in the peak trading months of September to November then it is often a different story. A glut of cattle from the summer grazers often mean the price can be on par or even lower than at similar conventional marts. This year in particular light for age stores that would have to be finished off grass next year are struggling to come into what they cost last spring.

The above is usually the case for weanlings and ligher stores. If you were in the position to feed stock into bigger weights it is yet a different situation. One feedlot in particular is usually very active for short keep cattle that can be put straight on to an intensive finishing diet. Due to this all year round demand sale date is not usually as important although mid summer tends to see prices peak.

Selling finished cattle through the mart can be an option during times of scarcity but can be a gamble. As with all stock types you need to target your buyers, a bit of market research and pre-planning can make a massive difference.

Birdnuts · 05-12-2018 8:45pm

Whats the story with Organic Milk?? - Seems to fly off the shelves in Aldi according to one of my relatives who runs a store in Kildare

Centrepassage · 05-12-2018 10:57pm

Albert Johnson wrote:

The above is usually the case for weanlings and ligher stores. If you were in the position to feed stock into bigger weights it is yet a different situation. One feedlot in particular is usually very active for short keep cattle that can be put straight on to an intensive finishing diet. Due to this all year round demand sale date is not usually as important although mid summer tends to see prices peak.

Birdnuts wrote:

Whats the story with Organic Milk?? - Seems to fly off the shelves in Aldi according to one of my relatives who runs a store in Kildare

Don't think many suckler farmers will be let into the next round of the scheme. You would need to be getting a good premium for organic milk to make it viable. Hard to do it with modern bred dairy cows. Pity the dept of agri don't try to promote organic farming better. Might have to down the road with carbon levies on the way.

148multi · 06-12-2018 8:24am

Centrepassage wrote: »

Don't think many suckler farmers will be let into the next round of the scheme. You would need to be getting a good premium for organic milk to make it viable. Hard to do it with modern bred dairy cows. Pity the dept of agri don't try to promote organic farming better. Might have to down the road with carbon levies on the way.

As I understand entry priority is based on a points system, a dairy enterprise 50 points, a beef enterprise 10 points and then more points for the bigger enterprises (per Ha). It appears to be weighed heavily against the beef enterprises.

_Brian · 06-12-2018 8:44am

Have to be honest there’s little real appetite for organic produce in Ireland at the moment, maybe that will change in time but I doubt it.
People want cheap food and care little about any other factors.

Heck, they’re happy to see cheap beef come from Brazil where they are chopping down prime rainforest to produce it, that’s a big leap to paying premium prices for Irish organic produce.

148multi · 06-12-2018 8:54am

_Brian wrote: »

Have to be honest there’s little real appetite for organic produce in Ireland at the moment, maybe that will change in time but I doubt it.
People want cheap food and care little about any other factors.

Heck, they’re happy to see cheap beef come from Brazil where they are chopping down prime rainforest to produce it, that’s a big leap to paying premium prices for Irish organic produce.

Well there's a good export market, 3 kg for weanlings going to continent, finished bullock worth 300 more than conventional, and stop talking about expensive meal, keep grass based system.

_Brian · 06-12-2018 9:11am

148multi wrote: »

Well there's a good export market, 3 kg for weanlings going to continent, finished bullock worth 300 more than conventional, and stop talking about expensive meal, keep grass based system.

I wouldn’t think €300 of a premium would cover the extra cost of production

organic farming

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