organic farming

tractorporn

wrangler wrote: »

Surely a straw bed on the slats will pass.Could 24 ft deep pens (double row slats) not have the back bedded

Used to be allowed but department changed the ruling two years ago.

tractorporn

Markcheese wrote: »

There have to more cubicles than animals, I think the size can depend on the size of your animals but think big... With plenty of lunge space, can't use peat for bedding either,

Peat is allowed for this year only a circular came out from the department earlier in the year. Afaik you don't have to have more cubicles than animals just as long as the cubicle provides the solid area for the animal and it has to be bedded with something as well

Centrepassage

Organic cattle commanded a premium price up until 5 years ago but not anymore. In fact it's the opposite now. Can't sell weanlings unless they are weaned for a couple of weeks. Cost of organic creep feed is twice normal price and low quality. Very hard to justify creep feeding at that cost. Without it they look very scrawny in mart beside cattle of manured land that are well fed.
Costs as much to bed organic cattle as to feed them for the winter in the west of Ireland. Great scheme no doubt but the red tape is crazy.

Albert Johnson

Centrepassage wrote: »

Organic cattle commanded a premium price up until 5 years ago but not anymore. In fact it's the opposite now. Can't sell weanlings unless they are weaned for a couple of weeks. Cost of organic creep feed is twice normal price and low quality. Very hard to justify creep feeding at that cost. Without it they look very scrawny in mart beside cattle of manured land that are well fed.
Costs as much to bed organic cattle as to feed them for the winter in the west of Ireland. Great scheme no doubt but the red tape is crazy.

I wouldn't agree about organic cattle not commanding a premium anymore. As I've commented before it's important to target the right stock at the appropriate time of year.

If it's possible to winter young stock I find that weanlings or lighter stores are usually the best trade in April and May most years. This is because a large percentage of organic farmers in my area of the north west are summer grazers. Well presented bullocks and heifers that are skulled and squeezed if appropriate will command top prices. Most of the part time lads only want to fulfill the stocking requirements and are prepared to pay for stock that are ready for grass with minimal effort on there part. Quality is a secondary consider for many and they'll buy bunches that are often very mixed regarding quality.

If you are unable to hold young stock for the winter and aim to sell in the peak trading months of September to November then it is often a different story. A glut of cattle from the summer grazers often mean the price can be on par or even lower than at similar conventional marts. This year in particular light for age stores that would have to be finished off grass next year are struggling to come into what they cost last spring.

The above is usually the case for weanlings and ligher stores. If you were in the position to feed stock into bigger weights it is yet a different situation. One feedlot in particular is usually very active for short keep cattle that can be put straight on to an intensive finishing diet. Due to this all year round demand sale date is not usually as important although mid summer tends to see prices peak.

Selling finished cattle through the mart can be an option during times of scarcity but can be a gamble. As with all stock types you need to target your buyers, a bit of market research and pre-planning can make a massive difference.

Birdnuts

Whats the story with Organic Milk?? - Seems to fly off the shelves in Aldi according to one of my relatives who runs a store in Kildare

Centrepassage

Albert Johnson wrote:

The above is usually the case for weanlings and ligher stores. If you were in the position to feed stock into bigger weights it is yet a different situation. One feedlot in particular is usually very active for short keep cattle that can be put straight on to an intensive finishing diet. Due to this all year round demand sale date is not usually as important although mid summer tends to see prices peak.

Birdnuts wrote:

Whats the story with Organic Milk?? - Seems to fly off the shelves in Aldi according to one of my relatives who runs a store in Kildare

Don't think many suckler farmers will be let into the next round of the scheme. You would need to be getting a good premium for organic milk to make it viable. Hard to do it with modern bred dairy cows. Pity the dept of agri don't try to promote organic farming better. Might have to down the road with carbon levies on the way.

148multi

Centrepassage wrote: »

Don't think many suckler farmers will be let into the next round of the scheme. You would need to be getting a good premium for organic milk to make it viable. Hard to do it with modern bred dairy cows. Pity the dept of agri don't try to promote organic farming better. Might have to down the road with carbon levies on the way.

As I understand entry priority is based on a points system, a dairy enterprise 50 points, a beef enterprise 10 points and then more points for the bigger enterprises (per Ha). It appears to be weighed heavily against the beef enterprises.

_Brian

Have to be honest there’s little real appetite for organic produce in Ireland at the moment, maybe that will change in time but I doubt it.
People want cheap food and care little about any other factors.

Heck, they’re happy to see cheap beef come from Brazil where they are chopping down prime rainforest to produce it, that’s a big leap to paying premium prices for Irish organic produce.

148multi

_Brian wrote: »

Have to be honest there’s little real appetite for organic produce in Ireland at the moment, maybe that will change in time but I doubt it.
People want cheap food and care little about any other factors.

Heck, they’re happy to see cheap beef come from Brazil where they are chopping down prime rainforest to produce it, that’s a big leap to paying premium prices for Irish organic produce.

Well there's a good export market, 3 kg for weanlings going to continent, finished bullock worth 300 more than conventional, and stop talking about expensive meal, keep grass based system.

_Brian

148multi wrote: »

Well there's a good export market, 3 kg for weanlings going to continent, finished bullock worth 300 more than conventional, and stop talking about expensive meal, keep grass based system.

I wouldn’t think €300 of a premium would cover the extra cost of production

Mooooo

What stocking rate is allowed and what can you grow without fert? I assume a lot of clover required in awards so grazing in wet conditions becomes difficult along with weed control. Have to look at it in what you can produce and get in payments versus conventional

Markcheese

_Brian wrote: »

I wouldn’t think €300 of a premium would cover the extra cost of production

Depends on your system.. If theyre largely finished off grass or decent silage, and the housing situation isn't too tricky then it's probably better than conventional..

orchard farm

Mooooo wrote: »

What stocking rate is allowed and what can you grow without fert? I assume a lot of clover required in awards so grazing in wet conditions becomes difficult along with weed control. Have to look at it in what you can produce and get in payments versus conventional

Min 0.5 per ha.clover rich swards ideally.can use fym,slurry also depending on soil test results lime,rock phosphate etc. Chemical nitrogen is not allowed ever!!

Mooooo

orchard farm wrote: »

Min 0.5 per ha.clover rich swards ideally.can use fym,slurry also depending on soil test results lime,rock phosphate etc. Chemical nitrogen is not allowed ever!!

What's the max stocking rate? Or is there one? At the end of the day it still boils down to how much grass you can grow to feed the stock. If that's looked at first then look at any schemes etc as they may change and then you can judge it against conventional on its financial returns

orchard farm

Mooooo wrote: »

What's the max stocking rate? Or is there one? At the end of the day it still boils down to how much grass you can grow to feed the stock. If that's looked at first then look at any schemes etc as they may change and then you can judge it against conventional on its financial returns

No max stock rate but min shed space m2 per animals is higher so I guess stock rate will depend on size of sheds with lye backs,amount of feed your farm can produce etc.intencive high stocking farms do tend to reduce while extensive farms round here in northwest find it hard to get to min stocking rate

tractorporn

Mooooo wrote: »

What's the max stocking rate? Or is there one? At the end of the day it still boils down to how much grass you can grow to feed the stock. If that's looked at first then look at any schemes etc as they may change and then you can judge it against conventional on its financial returns

There is no max stocking rate as such but you are limited to the 170kgsN/Ha nitrates limit and organic farmers can't get a derogation. The lads on the teagasc farm walks where they are measuring said that after the initial shock of the first year or two growth would only be 20/25% behind where they were before they joined. But it's hard to judge as some would have been reducing their fertiliser use as they started thinking about converting.

davidk1394

A neighbor of mine is an organic dairy farmer and my uncle is an organic beef farmer but was doing tillage. IOFGA and organic trust are on the look out for tillage farmers and dairy farmers to convert to organic as there is a demand for the product.
On the beef side there is a saturation of the market already. The main company selling organic beef and lamb is ABP under the name of the Good Herdsman. My uncle has to book in cattle the day he buys them in the mart. He reckons his going to loose his shirt on cattle this year. Very little price difference at the moment between conventional organic beef.

wrangler

davidk1394 wrote: »

A neighbor of mine is an organic dairy farmer and my uncle is an organic beef farmer but was doing tillage. IOFGA and organic trust are on the look out for tillage farmers and dairy farmers to convert to organic as there is a demand for the product.
On the beef side there is a saturation of the market already. The main company selling organic beef and lamb is ABP under the name of the Good Herdsman. My uncle has to book in cattle the day he buys them in the mart. He reckons his going to loose his shirt on cattle this year. Very little price difference at the moment between conventional organic beef.

Good trade for lambs this year, but has been abysmal in the past, Camolin are the only factory taking them, a lot of them come through our group, some guys really do a great job on them, really good lambs

148multi

wrangler wrote: »

Good trade for lambs this year, but has been abysmal in the past, Camolin are the only factory taking them, a lot of them come through our group, some guys really do a great job on them, really good lambs

Dawn in ballyhaunis are taking organic lamb this year, haven't dealt with them.

Willfarman

davidk1394 wrote: »

A neighbor of mine is an organic dairy farmer and my uncle is an organic beef farmer but was doing tillage. IOFGA and organic trust are on the look out for tillage farmers and dairy farmers to convert to organic as there is a demand for the product.
On the beef side there is a saturation of the market already. The main company selling organic beef and lamb is ABP under the name of the Good Herdsman. My uncle has to book in cattle the day he buys them in the mart. He reckons his going to loose his shirt on cattle this year. Very little price difference at the moment between conventional organic beef.

A lot of conventional farmers lost money this year. The extensive low stocked systems fared the best around here.

Water John

davidk know you are going dairying, from the other thread. I think you said you wouldn't go organic. Just wondering would you still consider it?
What sort of price premium would be needed, 20%+?

kowtow

Does anybody know what the options are for collection of organic milk? Is there anyone collecting in Cork?

manjou

kowtow wrote: »

Does anybody know what the options are for collection of organic milk? Is there anyone collecting in Cork?

dont know but if you ring either organic trust or the irish organic association they might know.

roosterman71

Interesting study on the climate effects of organic farming vs. conventional
You might want to think twice when buying organic, new study claims
Assessing the efficiency of changes in land use for mitigating climate change (need a subscription to read the study in full)

tractorporn

kowtow wrote: »

Does anybody know what the options are for collection of organic milk? Is there anyone collecting in Cork?

The little milk company collect milk from lads in Cork but not sure if they're taking any more milk. I know Glensik have collected milk in Cork before but not sure if they still go down that far anymore.

The Aherns are big organic dairy farmers in Cork the son took over the farmers journal Snapchat yesterday

Earnshaw

Can anyone point me in the direction of the entry requirements for this scheme?

Water John

Here
http://www.irishorganicassociation.ie/general/organic-farming-scheme-opens-19th-november-until-19th-december-2018/

tractorporn

Earnshaw wrote: »

Can anyone point me in the direction of the entry requirements for this scheme?

The marking system is in the terms and conditions of the scheme. You can get the terms and conditions on the department website.

Dairy gets 45 marks, tillage 50 and hort 50, beef gets 10 marks sheep get home. There are extra points for for livestock and small areas of cereals or Hort and for size. The max points anyone can get is 120.

Earnshaw

tractorporn wrote: »

The marking system is in the terms and conditions of the scheme. You can get the terms and conditions on the department website.

Dairy gets 45 marks, tillage 50 and hort 50, beef gets 10 marks sheep get home. There are extra points for for livestock and small areas of cereals or Hort and for size. The max points anyone can get is 120.

Sheep get none.

The min you need is 25 points I believe?

So if I was a beef farmer I could put 15 hectares into the scheme - that's 10 points for beef plus 15 points for each hectare...? Am I correct in saying that?

See attached image for ranking and selection criteria...

endainoz

I'm going to apply anyways, from a beef point of view it seems difficult but I reckon I'll cover admin and course costs for 2019 by not buying chemical fert. The application is a fair amount to cover but nothing most people couldn't do themselves. I think its worth the risk myself, seen as beef is in a bad way, this would be a great help!