Multiculturism?

meditraitor · 16-06-2005 10:24am

Its all down to greed, we have it(and want to keep it) , they want it(by hook or crook).

As for the eejits who dont want it but want to give it away, fuck off
(usual middle or upper class gits rebeling against daddy).

I think we should hire ryanair to get a fleet in and get rid of all the spongers,(irish included)

tim3115 · 16-06-2005 10:51am

get rid of all the spongers,(irish included)

What do you mean by this?

You base this on what? Our unemployment rate means we are effectively at full employment, with the remaining unemployed made up of people between jobs, in training, and just plain unemployable.

As I said earlier, I base this on personal experience and local incidents which I know about. As for it happening throughout the country, we all know the answer to that.

therecklessone · 16-06-2005 11:11am

tim3115 wrote:

As I said earlier, I base this on personal experience and local incidents which I know about. As for it happening throughout the country, we all know the answer to that.

And my personal experience is that the only person I know who is unemployed is between jobs (admittedly he's been that way for a while), and any difficulties he's having in finding work are as a result of his lack of training. You're point being?

Listen, the "we all know the answer to that" defence doesn't wash anymore. The facts speak for themselves. Our unemployment rate is so low we are effectively at full employment. In the country as a whole there are very few people activly seeking work who cannot get work, and those that can't find lack of training or qualifications to be their main stumbling block.

kawaii · 16-06-2005 3:08pm

What I am saying is give preference to the Irish. The same goes for housing etc.

Yeah, that's what I said you were saying.

I didn't say 'treat them like shít', you did. You're trying to put those words in my mouth, but why am I not surprised?

What's that supposed to mean?

I will say this though, Irish people are being treated like shít in certain circumstances. You look at the number of Irish people losing their jobs to companies who are re-locating their operations. You look at the number of foreign people getting jobs ahead of Irish people at low wages. That's what 'treated like shít' is

You seem to think that immigrants have it dead easy over here. Being friends with quite a few non-irish I can easily say they do not. Your views are biased in favour of your own race and the way you want things to be. Foreigners shouldn't be getting offered lower wages in the first place as that is quite prejudice.

But there are races that have lasted for thousands of years, no? So who's to say that they haven't lasted for even longer than that? And that they'll last for a long, LONG time now?

They have lasted for a long long time. And now they're changing. It was bound to happen sooner or later and it is good that they are.

In Africa, for example, do you think there are a mix of races there? Or have the people there kept their race intact since the early times?

There is a mix of race there. Remember apartheid? Think the blacks were oppressing themselves? Approximately 40% of Africans are christians (that's our doing).

If you are reffering to these many small tribes in Africa (amongst other places) Ever wonder why those african tribes are living in poverty and hunger? Because they never progressed.

So my Irish isn't the best..Am I any less Irish than someone with a better understanding of the language? I listen to Irish music, am I better than you? I eat spuds, better than you? What exactly were you trying to get at here?

What I'm saying is that our culture has already been dilluted. And it's good. By taking in aspects of foreign cultures we gain new things and new ideas. There is no point in being narrow minded and trying to say "WE have been doing this for thousands of years so its the right way". Taking in aspects of foreign cultures does not make us any less Irish. It can only better us. Unless the two contradict each other.

KnowItAll · 17-06-2005 1:27am

Richard Lynn wrote:

The average IQ in subsaharan africa is 70

therecklessone wrote:

I suspect yourself and Prof Lynn have quite a lot in common TBH.

I didn't do the survey and I thought you claimed he was fair in his research!

Btw, it proves only, that multiculturism does not raise the national IQ average like some people here believe!

county · 17-06-2005 1:35am

if the irish want to keep there culture why do you all speak a foreign tongue

meditraitor · 17-06-2005 9:41am

county wrote:

if the irish want to keep there culture why do you all speak a foreign tongue

culture

The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought

Ah the old foreign tongue argument, firstly how we communicate is the important thing in cultural terms, the language used is only secondary.

What we communicate with that language as a culture is the defining thing,

E.G consider a londoner(english language) and a Kerryman(english language) sitting in a room, you have conversaions with both, would you still say that because they both speak english they have the same culture??

Didnt think so.

therecklessone · 17-06-2005 10:11am

KnowFeckAll wrote:

I didn't do the survey and I thought you claimed he was fair in his research!

I claimed nothing of the sort, I just called you on your assumption that he was prejudiced against the Irish. Get your facts straight.

KnowItAll wrote:

Btw, it proves only, that multiculturism does not raise the national IQ average like some people here believe!

Oh, so now you accept his research? I thought he was biased against the Irish, and that our successful economy "proved" him wrong? How can he be so right about multiculturalism and so wrong about the Irish national IQ.

By the way, I'm still waiting for your idea of the Irish national culture. You know, the one you claim is under threat from the foreign hordes?

CerebralCortex · 18-06-2005 2:50pm

county wrote:

if the irish want to keep there culture why do you all speak a foreign tongue

We don't, english has been here for nine hundred years and counting yet nobody wants to admit it. Its the truth the Irish just like to complain.

Zillah · 20-06-2005 6:49am

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

What a steaming pile of racist crap. Honestly, I am amazed at this rubbish. Irish culture is a subset of Western culture the two sets of value systems largely overlap anyone of us could blend in easily in any other EU or North American country so stop kidding yourself about our culture being "destroyed" by outside forces.ROFL, you sound like some paranoid American Republican. "It's the bloody jewish left-wing media!!"

"War is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

"War is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Immigrant infiltration, Immigrant indoctrination, Immigrant subversion and the international Immigrant conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious culture."

:rolleyes:

You get a point for the Dr.Strangelove reference.

pickarooney · 20-06-2005 7:36am

This is possibly the worst 'debating' I've ever come across. Every last one of you is talking at cross-purposes (except perhaps Dagon), contradicting himself and doing everything to avoid the subject. Why do you bother?

therecklessone · 20-06-2005 1:06pm

pickarooney wrote:

This is possibly the worst 'debating' I've ever come across. Every last one of you is talking at cross-purposes (except perhaps Dagon), contradicting himself and doing everything to avoid the subject. Why do you bother?

Either improve the standard of the debate or stay out. Your contribution above adds nothing to the thread.

KnowItAll · 22-06-2005 12:18am

therecklessone wrote:

Oh, so now you accept his research? I thought he was biased against the Irish, and that our successful economy "proved" him wrong?

I disagreed with him about the Irish IQ findings nothing else!

therecklessone wrote:

How can he be so right about multiculturalism and so wrong about the Irish national IQ.

I don't recall him talking about multiculturism, do you?

therecklessone wrote:

By the way, I'm still waiting for your idea of the Irish national culture. You know, the one you claim is under threat from the foreign hordes?

You have been living in Ireland (or do you???) all this time and your asking me to explain what Irish culture is!

KnowItAll · 22-06-2005 12:19am

pickarooney wrote:

This is possibly the worst 'debating' I've ever come across. Every last one of you is talking at cross-purposes (except perhaps Dagon), contradicting himself and doing everything to avoid the subject. Why do you bother?

I'm interested to know where I have contradicted myself...

therecklessone · 22-06-2005 1:31am

KnowItAll wrote:

You have been living in Ireland (or do you???) all this time and your asking me to explain what Irish culture is!

Never mind where I live, answer the question. What is Irish culture?

therecklessone · 22-06-2005 1:36am

therecklessone wrote:

How can he be so right about multiculturalism and so wrong about the Irish national IQ.

KnowItAll wrote:

I don't recall him talking about multiculturism, do you?

****s sake, [edited] read the thread!

KnowItAll wrote:

Btw, it proves only, that multiculturism does not raise the national IQ average like some people here believe!

Thems your own words!

Wibbs · 22-06-2005 12:06pm

Regardless of the viewpoints, multiculturalism seems to have a bad history and an uncertain future. If you look at most multicultural societies there are serious problems. The UK is one of the better examples and even there the riots in the 70s/80s(Brixton, Toxteth etc) and the current unrest between the various Muslim communities and their neighbours seemed to make the rantings of someone like Enoch Powell prophetic. The US is even worse. There is still an undercurrent of race hostility that needs little to inflame it into full blown race riots(Rodney King case etc). Holland is on a knife edge and France and Germany aren't too far behind.

There seems to be a innate tribalism in humanity that may accept a small population of "outsiders" but when a certain number is reached this boils over to resentment, hate and finally aggression. It's not even down to race. Just look at Ulster FFS. Two populations that are pretty much identical, yet still have an uneasy peace with each other years after (most) of the reasons they hated each other in the first place are gone. Different colours just make the identification of the other easier. Stupidity tends to be lazy after all.

Setting aside my personal viewpoint(Pretty liberal BTW) I would suggest that, given the experience of other countries and the difficulties faced by them in integrating large populations of non nationals, we should learn from this and restrict immigration and avoid such problems in the first place. Not PC I know. Just my two cents worth. I wouldn't like to wake up in this country to find that we've royally screwed up just to make some silly PC point.

That said an injection of new blood into the "Irish" gene pool is way overdue.

As for the national IQ issue. I read other research(not the good Dr. previously quoted) that seemed to back up the idea that Ireland had a lower IQ than some other EU countries. Again caution is required with any of these studies as very rarely are the methodologies or indeed even the numbers of people polled even revealed.

That said some cultures/races do appear to be more industrious. Interesting topic on the the BBC news last night where they compared the relative growth of Ghana and Malaysia since independence from Britain. The two countries started off from similar starting points yet Malaysia has streaked ahead. One example was the palm oil crop. Palm oil comes from a tree that is native to sub Saharan Africa, yet Ghana has made little of it's natural asset and exports very little oil. Malaysia on the other hand is the world's biggest exporter of the the self same oil. All this from trees that were exported from Ghana in the first place!! This is repeated throughout sub Sahara Africa. Botswana seems to be one of the few examples where they're doing OK. Nigeria has huge natural resources yet is still in bits, with a large amount of it's population trying to leave and who can blame them. By rights they should be one of the richest countries in the world, never mind In Africa.

KnowItAll · 24-06-2005 12:07am

therecklessone wrote:

Never mind where I live, answer the question. What is Irish culture?

I'm not going to go into it because I'd be writing all night and I'm not going to spend that time for you.

Why don't you say what you thing Irish culture is?

I'm guessing you'll be back again asking me the same question and you'll get the same answer!

therecklessone · 24-06-2005 12:45am

KnowItAllWithNoAnswersToGive wrote:

I'm guessing you'll be back again asking me the same question and you'll get the same answer!

Then your incapable of arguing your point, and are doing nothing more than blowing hot air. Why waste the resources of boards to do it?

My concept of what comprises the Irish culture is irrelevant, since you are the one claiming our culture is under threat. If you can't even be bothered outlining what that culture consists of, and how it is being undermined by "dirty foreigners", then why should any of us bother to listen to you rant and rave about the evils of multiculturalism.

KnowItAllWithNoAnswersToGive wrote:

You have been living in Ireland (or do you???) all this time and your asking me to explain what Irish culture is!

I'll bite.

In my 27 years living in this country I've seen:

Massive tax evasion
Political corruption
Hypocrisy from Church leaders
Clerical child abuse
Revealations of institutional child abuse, both sexual and physical, in the not too distant past
A police force discredited by dishonest and downright criminal members
A growing alcohol problem, where public drunkeness is not only tolerated, but is encouraged
An alarming increase in random acts of senseless violence on our streets
The emergence of increasingly ruthless criminal gangs controlling the illicit drugs trade in this country
A frightening increase in the use of illegal narcotics, particularly cocaine in recent years
Our rip-off culture
An increase in conspicuous consumer consumption

You're right yeah, if we let all those darkies and ragheads in we'll be rightly screwing up our green and pleasant land... :rolleyes:

Wibbs · 24-06-2005 10:32am

therecklessone wrote:

You're right yeah, if we let all those darkies and ragheads in we'll be rightly screwing up our green and pleasant land... :rolleyes:

well put.

Still, while I agree with you wholeheartedly(both on this and the v loose concept of Irish "culture"), Racism/tribalism etc is an ugly truth, so would it not be prudent to have an immigration policy that at least reduces the risk of adding the spectre of racial tension to our past and existing woes.

It's a hard question I know, but how do we go about constructing a society that embraces a beneficial multiculturalism while not ghettoising those very cultures that decide to call Ireland home. I do hope that we can grow enough to leave all that crap behind, but the experience of other multicultural societies leaves me a bit pessimistic.

KnowItAll · 26-06-2005 12:28am

therecklessone wrote:

In my 27 years living in this country I've seen:
Massive tax evasion

Political corruption

Hypocrisy from Church leaders

Clerical child abuse

Revealations of institutional child abuse, both sexual and physical, in the not too distant past

A police force discredited by dishonest and downright criminal members

A growing alcohol problem, where public drunkeness is not only tolerated, but is encouraged

An alarming increase in random acts of senseless violence on our streets

The emergence of increasingly ruthless criminal gangs controlling the illicit drugs trade in this country

A frightening increase in the use of illegal narcotics, particularly cocaine in recent years

Our rip-off culture

An increase in conspicuous consumer consumption

You're right yeah, if we let all those darkies and ragheads in we'll be rightly screwing up our green and pleasant land... :rolleyes:

And thats the difference between you and me. You look at the negative side of things while I tend to look at the positive. I know there is a major drink problem etc but there is a positive side to Irish culture also.

If you are so negative about the country why don't you leave?

Karl Hungus · 26-06-2005 4:06am

Wibbs wrote:

I do hope that we can grow enough to leave all that crap behind, but the experience of other multicultural societies leaves me a bit pessimistic.

One of the problems of multiculturalism is political correctness, and specifically here in Ireland, while those at Residents Against Racism are screaming racist at the top of their lungs and calling Ireland and it's people racist, nobody stops to consider that immigrants/asylum seekers might not be all that tolerant either. It's entirely one-sided.

therecklessone · 26-06-2005 11:18am

KnowFeckAll wrote:

And thats the difference between you and me. You look at the negative side of things while I tend to look at the positive. I know there is a major drink problem etc but there is a positive side to Irish culture also.

Ahahahahahahahaha...

You? Positive? How? I've asked you numerous times to outline you're idea of what our culture means and you've continually refused. So how positive can you be? Come on laughing boy, show me how wrong I am.

KnowFeckAll wrote:

If you are so negative about the country why don't you leave?

Wow, there's a surprise. All you're missing is "being negative about Irieland is unpatriotic".

I've had my fill of you. I'd like you to answer the one question you've avoided to date. Please.

Wibbs · 26-06-2005 2:11pm

Karl Hungus wrote:

One of the problems of multiculturalism is political correctness, and specifically here in Ireland, while those at Residents Against Racism are screaming racist at the top of their lungs and calling Ireland and it's people racist, nobody stops to consider that immigrants/asylum seekers might not be all that tolerant either. It's entirely one-sided.

How very right you are. The idea that we've got a monopoly on intolerance while the very countries that most of the people coming here are from, are amongst the most intolerant places on earth. Religious, political and racial intolerance are the everyday reality in many of these countries. I for one don't want to import these problems.

As an example, in Saudi Arabia it is illegal to wear a religious item(non Islamic) such as a cross in public. Other examples of intolerance are many, but hey that's their "culture"
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35507.htm (I picked a US Gov site as an example as they have a somewhat "friendly" relationship with SA)

Their record in the treatment of non Islamic peoples in Saudi is pretty bad as well, but hey, under Islamic Sharia law that's considered fine. :rolleyes: Now why should I or anyone else in the "west" have to tolerate those same backward views on our own doorstep. Much in the same way I would respect the law in such countries, I feel people coming here should respect our cultural norms as well.

The sight of women dressed from head to foot in burqhas following their man at a respectful distance is frankly an outmoded barabaric practice that should not be encouraged, much less feted by some twisted sense of cutural equality. I am not however advocating the French model of banning headscarves entirely. That's a step too far, but you see many Malaysian(among others) Muslim women about town dressed normally and modestly in every way but still wearing headscarves. They are hanging on to their culture while still being fully formed members of a modern society. So it can be done(as an aside they look v stylish too).

This is not restricted to the Islamic cultures either. Others have less overt practices that we may and should find uncomfortable. Certain African fundamentalist Christian/animist sects spring to mind as well. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4098172.stm

As Karl Hungus has pointed out it is entirely one sided and it will continue to be until we say enough is enough. If we don't fight for a balanced modern liberal society this argument will be a moot one very soon as many things we value can and will be lost under the twin boots of political correctness and intolerance of our culture by the very people who seek to live in it. We have much to lose if we're not careful. If we don't stand up against such things we may find ourselves climbing into cultural coffins of our own making while admiring the quality of our workmanship. I hope it doesn't go that far.

Karl Hungus · 26-06-2005 8:21pm

Wibbs wrote:

The sight of women dressed from head to foot in burqhas following their man at a respectful distance is frankly an outmoded barabaric practice that should not be encouraged, much less feted by some twisted sense of cutural equality. I am not however advocating the French model of banning headscarves entirely. That's a step too far, but you see many Malaysian(among others) Muslim women about town dressed normally and modestly in every way but still wearing headscarves. They are hanging on to their culture while still being fully formed members of a modern society. So it can be done(as an aside they look v stylish too).

I disagree about France banning headscarfs being a step too far. In fact, I'd say it's a case of too little too late.

I'm sure your aware of the troubles with Muslims in France, and I remember reading an article where in some suburban comminities, ALL women had to wear burqhas reguarldless of whether they were Muslim or not, because the belief that if they weren't covered they were "For everybody" resulted in many young women being beaten, raped and murdered.

Now, we in Ireland have pretty much just climbed up from being a pretty backwards country, under the heel of the Catholic Church and subject to its beliefs, but now we're facing a whole new religion with a whole new set of barbaric beliefs and disgusting practices, only now, we can't call them on it for fear of being labelled Racist.

Now whether we as a country are going to put the beliefs of some in higher reguard than the human rights and dignity of others is the question. Can we overcome political correctness?

PHB · 27-06-2005 2:08am

Don't you think it's hypocritcal from a nation which systematically oppressed women for centuries, including governmental support for this system, to lecture the muslim world on women's rights?
Religious extremism will change over time

Karl Hungus · 27-06-2005 2:45am

PHB wrote:

Don't you think it's hypocritcal from a nation which systematically oppressed women for centuries, including governmental support for this system, to lecture the muslim world on women's rights?
Religious extremism will change over time

That opens up a whole new can of worms there PHB, but I don't believe for one second that figuratively speaking, the sins of the father should be visited on the son. I doubt that myself, or anyone else on this thread, or even most young people alive in Ireland today, have engaged in "Systematically oppressing women for centuries", so no, I do not think that it's hipocritical. I'd take exception if some wifebeater, or rapist were to criticize, but this isn't the case here.

I firmly believe that Ireland has evolved in leaps and bounds, and it's a place I'm proud to call home, simply because of how far we've come. I also think that you're right, religious extremism will change, but I don't see how letting certain beliefs drag Ireland kicking and screaming back in time 60+ years, just because it's not 'Politically correct' to question those beliefs.

I think it's a question of whether or not we're going to be tolerant of people's intolerances. Are human rights going to be ignored over being PC?

Wibbs · 27-06-2005 9:35am

PHB wrote:

Don't you think it's hypocritcal from a nation which systematically oppressed women for centuries, including governmental support for this system, to lecture the muslim world on women's rights?
Religious extremism will change over time

The religious extremism of Islam hasn't changed in over a 1000 yrs. Why do reckon it's likely to change anytime soon? One of the problems with this question is that people assume that this is extremism or local custom not the true Islam. Certainly Christianity has been hijacked over the years for different peoples and causes, but it would be a mistake IMHO to think of Islam in the same way. Much of what many would describe as extremism are basic tenets of the faith. While there are many laudable passages concerning peace and love(to other muslims mainly), Slavery, subjugation of women(a man is even told how to beat his wife FFS) and war against unbelievers are all written very clearly in the Quran. there's not a lot of leeway for interpretation.

Now many in the Muslim world are trying to concentrate on the good aspects of the religion, but that proves difficult in the face of an original text that holds many things dear that we would find uncomfortable.

PHB · 27-06-2005 1:13pm

Its not 60 years, its about 20 years. And the majority of our parents would have lived during that time.
I don't think the sins of the father should be handed down, but lets not forget the society we were, and lets not look down on other societies only 20 years behind us!
Moderisation will lead to less extreme religion, and its just that simple

The extremism of Christianity hadn't changed over 1000 years, and until about 1920's they didn't change, then they changed rapidly. If Chrisianity and Ireland could do it, why can't Muslim countries?

Certainly Christianity has been hijacked over the years for different peoples and causes, but it would be a mistake IMHO to think of Islam in the same way. Much of what many would describe as extremism are basic tenets of the faith

That's just flatly competely untrue.
Yes they are in the scriptures, but they are also directly written in the bible, yet they aren't central tenants of Christianity

Wibbs · 27-06-2005 2:53pm

PHB wrote:

Its not 60 years, its about 20 years. And the majority of our parents would have lived during that time.

I was around 20 yrs ago and I don't seem to remember women without the vote, shuttered up in their houses, only to be let out veiled from head to foot. Yes I am being facetious there and apologies if that's a stretch, but we must at least compare like with like. I would like someone to find any reference in the scriptures of Christianity(or any other faith) where the injustices in this country you speak of would be suggested or condoned.

lets not look down on other societies only 20 years behind us! Moderisation will lead to less extreme religion, and its just that simple

I also think "only 20yrs behind us" is being optimistic to say the least and if modernisation will lead to less extreme religion, how does one explain Saudi Arabia and other oil rich countries, most of which have a higher standard of living than ourselves, yet over time have become even more radicalised.

That's just flatly competely untrue.
Yes they are in the scriptures, but they are also directly written in the bible, yet they aren't central tenants of Christianity

Just where are they written in the bible or indeed any other religious texts? When did Jesus/Buddha/Krishna suggest a man should beat his wife, cover her completely in public or regard her as lesser than a man(a 1/4 or 1/2 lesser depending on situation)? When did Jesus/Buddha/Krishna suggest a man fight a holy war against unbelievers and kill or enslave them if they don't convert, or kill their own kind if they turn away from the faith? When did Jesus/Buddha/Krishna personally wage a holy war that led to the deaths of thousands to ensure their faith prospered?

One of the diferences in Islam is that it is both a religious book and a book on how to order a society, both practically and politically. Church and state are one in the same. It would be very difficult to seperate the two. Unlike here where we have come on in leaps and bounds in that regard. It was tradition(among many other things) that bound the two together here. The marriage of church and state was not enshrined in the teachings of Christianity to nearly the same extent as it is in Islam.

Of course one can point to many instances in the past where "christians" and others rode into dubious battles holding their religious banners high(with the exception of Buddism), but none of the originators of these faiths personally ordered such acts and would doubtless been horrified at such acts carried out in their name.

I would suggest a cursory read of the Quran and other relevant Islamic texts to see what I mean. Sure there is peace, charity and good advice in there, yet there are ugly passages that are xenophobic, sexist and extreme and as such have no place in a modern society.

Karl Hungus · 02-07-2005 10:07pm

PHB wrote:

Its not 60 years, its about 20 years. And the majority of our parents would have lived during that time.
I don't think the sins of the father should be handed down, but lets not forget the society we were, and lets not look down on other societies only 20 years behind us!
Moderisation will lead to less extreme religion, and its just that simple

The extremism of Christianity hadn't changed over 1000 years, and until about 1920's they didn't change, then they changed rapidly. If Chrisianity and Ireland could do it, why can't Muslim countries?

I'd gladly jump headfirst into the debate of how far we've come compared to societies that are largely Muslim, and as someone who was alive more than 20 years ago, would nearly call you for the flat-out bovine manure that comment is, but that's all getting away from the point at hand.

We're not talking about Muslim countries, we are talking about our country and whether or not extremists should be tolerated in the intrests of political correctness. Even your comments, PHB, reek of that kind of attitude. Sure, even if they were only 20 years behind us, we shouldn't ignore the basic human rights of women, while we wait for modernization.

I found the article I was refering to previously, so click here to read it.

Most importantly, this section here:

The anti-Semitism has created a threat to the physical safety for French Jews. Almost every week, some Jews get mugged, simply for being Jews. Almost nobody pays attention to it. When an anti-Semitic act is so disgusting it is impossible to hide it, journalists will speak of "confrontation between communities." When confronted with the reality that these "confrontations" are always Muslims attacking Jews, the editorial response: "Just because there has yet to be a single documented case of a Jew attacking a Muslim yet doesn't mean it will never happen. . . ."

And Jews are not the only victims of France's new identification with radical Islam. In many French cities with a growing radical Islamist population, no teenage girl can go out in the evening, at least not without a full burqa. If she does, it will mean that "she is for everybody": in short, a whore. In the same cities, every teenage girl - regardless of religion - has to wear the Muslim veil if she does not want to be harassed or killed. Almost every month, a young woman is mugged and raped in a suburb of a big city. Gang rape has become so frequent that a new word, used by the rapists themselves to define their hideous actions, is used by everybody: tournantes (revolving). To the rapists, the woman is nothing, a mere object to be thrown away after use. The people who speak about "revolving" seem to forget a human being is involved as the victim. Policemen do nothing. Every decent person knows the problem is Islam, but no one dares to say it. It could be dangerous. The streets are not safe.

Dare I suggest that recent desecration and vandalization of Jewish property in Dublin is of any corelation?
I think I do dare!

Anti-Semetic Graffiti Painted On Jewish Buildings In Dublin

Also:

In the Irish Independent, 12.11.2004, news of vandalism of Irish Jewish sites after the death of Yassir Arafat appeared. On the front wall of the Irish Jewish Museum on Dublin's South Circular Road, a black swastika was daubed. At the National War Memorial at Islandbridge, yellow paint was sprayed on the cross, altar, and memorials. Slogans urging 'Free Iraq', ''Traitors' and ''Burn in Hell' were written.

And while I'm sure we all agree that it's a fairly disgusting display, there seems to be a large consensus believing that's its really all the fault of those damned racists that are oh-so prevalent here in Ireland. :rolleyes:
When all else fails, blame stormfront.

Now, we all seem to be opposed to KnowItAll's harking back to the days of our Catholic country, and in my eyes, we're quite right. The flipside to this is that we're not excusing him because he's a bit behind the rest of us, just like all the radical followers of Islam that PHB seems to excuse with his comments.

My point here being that a bigot is a bigot is a bigot and should never be excused regluardless of faith, race or social background.

Yes, Muslim societies can (I saw can, because there's no definite course the future will take) advance, change, and of course, modernization can lead to less extremity in religion, but that doesn't make the segregation, humiliation, and downright sickening treatment of women that is happening in the here and now ok. If we hold human rights in any estimation whatsoever, we shouldn't excuse it, ignore it, or pretend it will just go away.

Multiculturalism will not work if we don't accept that people of other cultures can be racists and bigots too. If we keep saying "Racism is evil" only to ourselfs, it's all going to explode in our faces like a petrol bomb (Birmingham Race Riots anyone?).

Edit:

Sorry, I left that on a bit of a downer there. I'd like to say that I do believe Multiculturalism can work, and the very fact that I have had a Korean girlfriend would back this up, so I'm more than optimistic that we can all get along, but I don't think we should rely on hoping that everyone who comes into our society are going to be 100% good honest people.

KnowItAll · 03-07-2005 12:49am

therecklessone wrote:

You? Positive? How? I've asked you numerous times to outline you're idea of what our culture means and you've continually refused.

OK... I'll give you an example of Irish culture.

Last sunday I went to the munster final between Cork and Tipperary. Hung around Cork before the match and went for a couple of drinks after the match. The Tipp and Cork fans were mingling throughout the day and there wasn't a bit of bother.

After the match both sets of fans mingled in the pubs and still even with drink taken there was no bother. The Tipp fans were gracious in defeat and not a bit sour.

It's just an example of Irish culture. What other culture would you see this happening?

KnowItAll · 03-07-2005 12:56am

Karl Hungus wrote:

Now, we all seem to be opposed to KnowItAll's harking back to the days of our Catholic country, and in my eyes, we're quite right. The flipside to this is that we're not excusing him because he's a bit behind the rest of us,

I think I'm ahead of most of you actually! Could you explain how you think I'm behind. I cannot wait to hear it!

Karl Hungus wrote:

My point here being that a bigot is a bigot is a bigot and should never be excused regluardless of faith, race or social background.

Are you saying I'm a bigot?

gandalf · 03-07-2005 10:03pm

KnowItAll wrote:

OK... I'll give you an example of Irish culture.

Last sunday I went to the munster final between Cork and Tipperary. Hung around Cork before the match and went for a couple of drinks after the match. The Tipp and Cork fans were mingling throughout the day and there wasn't a bit of bother.

After the match both sets of fans mingled in the pubs and still even with drink taken there was no bother. The Tipp fans were gracious in defeat and not a bit sour.

It's just an example of Irish culture. What other culture would you see this happening?

Ok let me get this right, this is your example of Irish Culture.

People going to a sporting occasion, mixing beforehand without any trouble and mixing afterwards without any trouble. Congrats you have just described the majority of sporting occasions around the globe.

Try harder please.

bus77 · 03-07-2005 10:47pm

We'll have to try and get the Muslems on to the drink.

therecklessone · 03-07-2005 11:59pm

gandalf wrote:

Ok let me get this right, this is your example of Irish Culture.

People going to a sporting occasion, mixing beforehand without any trouble and mixing afterwards without any trouble. Congrats you have just described the majority of sporting occasions around the globe.

Try harder please.

Perfect summary of my own reaction on reading his post.

KnowItAll · 04-07-2005 1:07am

gandalf wrote:

Ok let me get this right, this is your example of Irish Culture.

People going to a sporting occasion, mixing beforehand without any trouble and mixing afterwards without any trouble. Congrats you have just described the majority of sporting occasions around the globe.

Try harder please.

Over 40,000 people in a stadium, highly charged atmosphere, in a final! Come on!

Were the fans segregrated, no.

So where else does it take place? and where would you find the craic or the atmosphere of a munster hurling final?

therecklessone · 04-07-2005 9:48am

KnowItAll wrote:

Over 40,000 people in a stadium, highly charged atmosphere, in a final! Come on!

Were the fans segregrated, no.

So where else does it take place?

Ever been to a rugby match?

Basketball?

Tennis?

Numerous Irish soccer internationals?

Athletics?

Formula 1?

Golf?

therecklessone · 04-07-2005 9:50am

KnowItAll wrote:

and where would you find the craic or the atmosphere of a munster hurling final?

The Millenium Stadium for a Welsh rugby match.

Any American Football match (AND they're allowed beer in the stadium...)

Swedish bandy matches.

Wibbs · 04-07-2005 10:42am

Karl Hungus wrote:

We're not talking about Muslim countries, we are talking about our country and whether or not extremists should be tolerated in the intrests of political correctness. Even your comments, PHB, reek of that kind of attitude. Sure, even if they were only 20 years behind us, we shouldn't ignore the basic human rights of women, while we wait for modernization.

Poiltical correctness may very well be our downfall. Speaking of modernization, we may be in for a long wait. The laws in Islam concerning hijab(burqhas) as an example are pretty much set in stone. That's the problem they can't be changed, even if many moderate Muslims would welcome such change.

I found the article I was refering to previously, so click here to read it. /Dare I suggest that recent desecration and vandalization of Jewish property in Dublin is of any corelation?
I think I do dare!

Dead right you should dare. The article had some good points to make and what is happening in France also has mirrors in Holland and certain parts of Britain. I don't want it happening here, that's for damn sure. We as a state have to nip this kind of theological fascism in the bud before it gets a foothold.

BTW, did you note the part about the promotion of Mecca-cola and Muslim-up? http://www.mecca-cola.com/en/index.php
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-03/12/article05.shtml Now I'm all for freedom of choice and resistance to global branding, but it's a bit sinister. ""They also launched a website to promote their drink, describing it as a “drink for all who boycott the Zionist products and U.S. trademarks.”" That'll be the Jews then. It would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous. The pictures on the cola site with smiling girls covered from head to foot holding cans is a little dubious to say the least. The fact that they have a page of fatwas supporting the venture is even more so.

If a Munster hurling final(while doubtless laudable) is the only example KnowItall can find of Irish culture, we're up sh*t creek in a chicken wire canoe in the face of those with more definite cultural aims.

Frank Grimes · 04-07-2005 12:39pm

Wibbs wrote:

The laws in Islam concerning hijab(burqhas) as an example are pretty much set in stone.

There's nothing about burqhas in Islamic law, they're a cultural thing in certain countries. The statement in the Quran is regarding modesty for women is generally interpreted as headscarf, clothes that aren't tight etc. Why do you associate what someone wears with "modernisation" anyway, do you not think that maybe a lot of Muslim women want to dress that way?

We as a state have to nip this kind of theological fascism in the bud before it gets a foothold.

What makes either of you think it was Muslims that did that, besides references to something that happened in France?

The pictures on the cola site with smiling girls covered from head to foot holding cans is a little dubious to say the least

What's dubious about that exactly?

Wibbs · 04-07-2005 2:31pm

Frank Grimes wrote:

There's nothing about burqhas in Islamic law, they're a cultural thing in certain countries. The statement in the Quran is regarding modesty for women is generally interpreted as headscarf, clothes that aren't tight etc.

Really? Actually there are more than one statements about what we would refer to as burqhas in Islamic law, both in the Quran and the haddith. It's certainly present in sharia law. Here's just one passage that refutes your theory. May I suggest some further reading on this, rather than trot out the same PC line that PHB was trotting out.

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

Here's a fuller explanation;
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&QR=21134

http://www.jamiat.org.za/women/concept_of_hijab.htm
http://www.islam101.com/women/hijabfaq.html (apparently men can't wear gold either)

Here's a more moderate view. Strange thing is there's little quoting of scripture here to back up the moderate case. I wonder why? Is it the fact that there is little backing up his laudable statements in the Quran and other Islamic texts?
http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed06.htm

Why do you associate what someone wears with "modernisation" anyway, do you not think that maybe a lot of Muslim women want to dress that way?

When the garment in question has implications politically, socially and theologically. Garments that imply notions and mores, we in a liberal democracy would find questionable at best. I'm sure many slaves wanted to remain slaves in the southern US before the civil war. It was safer and the hardships of working for a wage may have seemed daunting to someone brought up as a slave(do not get me started on Islam's slaving record). Better the devil you know and all that. I can also see why many Muslim women would want to dress like that. Fair enough. I'm more concerned about the women who don't want to, but have no choice. Liberalism is supposed to be all about choice, so it's funny that many "liberals" take issue with criticism about other cultures where such choices are limited. FFS, Even mixing of genders in school is out;
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=8827&dgn=4

What makes either of you think it was Muslims that did that, besides references to something that happened in France?

Islamic hate groups are springing up all over Europe. As the guy in the article pointed out. their language is that of the far right. They have more in common than is immediately obvious. Look at the Madrid bombings, look at French situation, look at Holland, the Van Gogh murder, the fatwas calling for death on Government ministers. Our neighbour, Britain has it's own issues. I simply don't want it starting here. We must build safeguards against any form of fascism, Muslim, far right or whoever.

What's dubious about that exactly?

It's dubious when smiling children are used to propagate further division in society. It's dubious coming from a site that rattles on about boycotting "Zionist" products.

Frank Grimes · 04-07-2005 3:47pm

Wibbs wrote:

Really? Actually there are more than one statements about what we would refer to as burqhas in Islamic law, both in the Quran and the haddith. It's certainly present in sharia law. Here's just one passage that refutes your theory. May I suggest some further reading on this, rather than trot out the same PC line that PHB was trotting out.

I have done "further reading", just because it doesn't confirm your own stereotypical view of Muslims doesn't mean it's not valid. Did you ever ask a (practising) Muslim woman what she thinks of this btw?
It's interesting that you're taking a very narrow view of something and rebuking anyone that questions it with accusations of liberalism/being PC or lack of understanding. It's not much better than the "fundamentalists" you are condemning, is it?
Regarding this part in your quote: "(i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way).", that would look to be the translators interpretation, so they're using an interpretation in the translation which suits their position, to back their own position. Hardly an impartial point of view is it?
This and verse 24:31 are the only mentions (afaik) of what women's dress, and neither mention covering the face. (I seem to remember reading something saying 33.59 was directed more at Muhammad's family but I could be mistaken)
It's not just "my theory" btw, the majority of Muslim women appear to believe that wearing a full burqa isn't a religious obligation. A great amount of Muslim scholars will also say the same thing. I've seen you use that site before as "evidence" for certain things. Remember, that's only an interpretation from a particular scholar(s) from a particular school of thought regarding this. It is not a definite ruling on Islamic law just because this guy says so.

Garments that imply notions and mores, we in a liberal democracy would find questionable at best.

Liberalism is supposed to be all about choice

So living in a "liberal" democracy implies that you do not have freedom to chose what you wear, interesting.

Islamic hate groups are springing up all over Europe.

You are implying that Muslims were responsible for the anti Semitic vandalism here, what proof do you have?

It's dubious coming from a site that rattles on about boycotting "Zionist" products.

You seemed more interested in their clothes in the last post.

KnowItAll · 05-07-2005 12:17am

If muslims want to live in Ireland they should obey irish laws. In my opinion islam is nothing more than a repressive cult that brainwashes people.

KnowItAll · 05-07-2005 12:26am

therecklessone wrote:

Ever been to a rugby match?

Basketball?

Tennis?

Numerous Irish soccer internationals?

Athletics?

Formula 1?

Golf?

HaHa. Are you serious? Your comparing this crap to a munster hurling final! Ha... I turned on wimbledon the other day for a minute and all I could hear was grunting.. As for soccer, boring. I've never been to a soccer match and will hardly ever go to a sport that has about 2 scores over 90 minutes.

I don't think fans mingle in soccer matches btw.

At least rugby has decent fans and is good to watch but it still isn't hurling.

Btw, are those sports unique to a single country?

gandalf · 05-07-2005 12:39am

KnowItAll wrote:

HaHa. Are you serious? Your comparing this crap to a munster hurling final! Ha... I turned on wimbledon the other day for a minute and all I could hear was grunting.. As for soccer, boring. I've never been to a soccer match and will hardly ever go to a sport that has about 2 scores over 90 minutes.

I don't think fans mingle in soccer matches btw.

At least rugby has decent fans and is good to watch but it still isn't hurling.

Btw, are those sports unique to a single country?

Ah yes but you weren't talking about the Sport in your original post now were you, you were talking about the fans how they mingled etc so now you are talking about the sport well please make your mind up will you.

What this guy and the others have done is show your rather lame and crude effort at showing what irish culture is to be common across a wide variety of countries and cultures.

Please try again................

KnowItAll · 05-07-2005 1:17am

gandalf wrote:

Ah yes but you weren't talking about the Sport in your original post now were you, you were talking about the fans how they mingled etc so now you are talking about the sport well please make your mind up will you.

What this guy and the others have done is show your rather lame and crude effort at showing what irish culture is to be common across a wide variety of countries and cultures.

Please try again................

Actually Gandalf I'm talking about irish culture... Crowd mingling and Hurling itself are all part of irish culture, no?

I didn't mention Hurling itself because I thought I didn't have to as it was so obvious!

Lame and crude eh... Instead of throwing insults, could you explain how my example of irish culture is lame and crude?

Looking forward to hearing your answer!

Frank Grimes · 05-07-2005 6:34am

KnowItAll wrote:

If muslims want to live in Ireland they should obey irish laws. In my opinion islam is nothing more than a repressive cult that brainwashes people.

What makes you think they don't obey Irish laws?

Wibbs · 05-07-2005 10:36am

Frank Grimes wrote:

I have done "further reading", just because it doesn't confirm your own stereotypical view of Muslims doesn't mean it's not valid. Did you ever ask a (practising) Muslim woman what she thinks of this btw?

Actually I have and the vast majority take the less conservative approach, but they have the same concerns that the more "correct" older form of Islam is increasingly taking hold. In any event trying to get a more conservative Muslim woman's opinion is difficult as it's haraam(forbidden) to even talk to a non family member. In any event I'm not stereotyping Muslims, it's certain core values in Islam itself that I take issue with. I have mentioned in other posts that there are many aspects of Islam that we would do well to emulate. The problem is that these laudable aspects are counter balanced by regressive, violent and politically dangerous aspects that would not fit well with our current notion of multiculturism.

At least you have done some further reading. Most have not and their opinions are based on hearsay from both sides of the argument For those wishing to read further.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/reference.html

It's interesting that you're taking a very narrow view of something and rebuking anyone that questions it with accusations of liberalism/being PC or lack of understanding. It's not much better than the "fundamentalists" you are condemning, is it?

Not quite, at least that wasn't my intention. I'm simply suggesting that the prevailing view of Islam as a religion of peace among people who consider themselves liberal I feel is unwarranted in many ways. The vast majority of believers would be on the non radical side but the danger is a growing civil war between the quiet and the radical. The problem with that is that Islam has more dangerous/violent elements than almost any other religion built in from the start.

Regarding this part in your quote: "(i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way).", that would look to be the translators interpretation, so they're using an interpretation in the translation which suits their position, to back their own position. Hardly an impartial point of view is it? And from what I've read, that verse is directed to Muhammad, verse 24:31 is the more general instruction.

The translations and intention are pretty consistent on this verse. Your point that it is directed at Muhammad hardly holds water given that it's Allah who is making the point. 24:31 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.031)is indeed the more easy going verse. (Many consider it to have been written in the earlier part of his life, before he took Mecca. Interestingly this early part of his life has the more relaxed attitude(even concerning alcohol). After Mecca he becomes significantly more militant and indeed intolerant.) Other links on veiling for further reading. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/whatishijab.html. http://www.islamworld.net/hijabvirtue.html http://www.jannah.org/sisters/hijab.html http://www.islamworld.net/hijabconds.html

It's not just "my theory" btw, the majority of Muslim women appear to believe that wearing a full burqa isn't a religious obligation. A great amount of Muslim scholars will also say the same thing.

True many will, but just as many don't agree. As you pointed out 24:31 is the more general instruction its just that there are more oppressive instructions that back it up. As a correction I'll use the term hijab, as it's a better one. The burqa being the most extreme form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_Hijab

I've seen you use that site before as "evidence" for certain things. Remember, that's only an interpretation from a particular scholar(s) from a particular school of thought regarding this. It is not a definite ruling on Islamic law just because this guy says so.

Okay, fair enough, but this is part of the problem with Islam. No central body making decisions that might drag some of the more dubious parts back to the middle ages where they belong.

So living in a "liberal" democracy implies that you do not have freedom to chose what you wear, interesting.

Well actually many would contend that you don't have the right in a liberal society to just wear what you like. At least not if offends or oppresses one particular group in society. Wear a T shirt berating gays blacks or women and see the reaction. A woman dressed head to foot in black walking behind her man represents to many an ideology that is inconsistent with western values.

You seemed more interested in their clothes in the last post.

Well the sight of young girls wrapped up so as not to offend or otherwise incense male desires is a bit rich in this day and age(That said, while some of the intention behind it could be seen as dubious, the concept of Mecca cola thumbing it's nose at a huge global brand appeals to me, on soooo many levels. Maybe KnowItAll could do the same for the Irish "culture" he/she's so proud of. Culchie cola has a nice ring to it. Sorry couldn't resist

)

There are Muslims that are trying to put the moderate parts of Islam to the fore.

http://www.understanding-islam.com

http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm

This site in particular sums up the modernisation of Islam well with some good articles.
http://www.ntpi.org/html/modernity.html
http://www.ntpi.org/html/islamophobia.html
http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html

Wibbs · 05-07-2005 10:49am

KnowItAll wrote:

If muslims want to live in Ireland they should obey irish laws. In my opinion islam is nothing more than a repressive cult that brainwashes people.

Ehhh, they're probably more likely to obey Irish law than the locals. Not many Islamic burglars I'd imagine. Certainly not among the religious.

As for Islam being a repressive cult; well all religions could be seen as cults that brainwash people. The only difference between Islam and others would be that it's a more political theology that has been very slow to change. It's difficulty lies with integration and the acceptance of other cultures/religions. That's the challenge when it comes to multiculturism.

Multiculturism?

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