School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

History Queen · 01-07-2020 10:34pm

PixiePop wrote: »

Schools aren't just workplaces. They're also centres of education. Teachers should not be the only consideration. The lives and futures of hundreds of thousands of children also needs to be factored in. What kind of outcome do they have in life with half an education? Will we have to extend the number of years they spend in school? Hospitals are workplaces too but the nurses and doctors didn't refuse to do their jobs unless 2m social distancing was put in place. And I see lots of other workplaces where 2m distancing just isn't practical. Why do teachers get to refuse? I know nurses/doctors are in life and death situations but I would also regard education as being pretty paramount, like health.

Teachers are not refusing, we're highlighting issues that need addressing..doctors and nurses were providedwith ppe and strict health and safety protocols in the absense of being able to socially distance. We want to return as safely as possible given the current circumstances. We're not expecting perfection. We're discussing proposals and hoping that a workable solution will be found.

khalessi · 01-07-2020 10:39pm

PixiePop wrote: »

Schools aren't just workplaces. They're also centres of education. Teachers should not be the only consideration. The lives and futures of hundreds of thousands of children also needs to be factored in. What kind of outcome do they have in life with half an education? Will we have to extend the number of years they spend in school? Hospitals are workplaces too but the nurses and doctors didn't refuse to do their jobs unless 2m social distancing was put in place. And I see lots of other workplaces where 2m distancing just isn't practical. Why do teachers get to refuse? I know nurses/doctors are in life and death situations but I would also regard education as being pretty paramount, like health.

EH I havent seen any teachers refuse.

Similar to health really!? That is excellent. You wont mind then if teachers instigate similar ppe safety that will beneifit the staff and students so?

mirrorwall14 · 01-07-2020 10:59pm

Millem wrote: »

If the younger classes are in pods. Will they be back as normal in September?

I’m crossing my fingers and toes for this. Because otherwise I’m going to have childcare issues

PixiePop · 01-07-2020 11:08pm

History Queen wrote: »

Teachers are not refusing, we're highlighting issues that need addressing..doctors and nurses were providedwith ppe and strict health and safety protocols in the absense of being able to socially distance. We want to return as safely as possible given the current circumstances. We're not expecting perfection. We're discussing proposals and hoping that a workable solution will be found.

Creche workers are wearing PPE, would teachers be happy with that, if they were provided with PPE gear daily and obviously an increase in cleaning of all surfaces, child made to hand sanitise, stay at home if they have a temp etc. etc.

PixiePop · 01-07-2020 11:10pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I’m crossing my fingers and toes for this. Because otherwise I’m going to have childcare issues

Yes employers will only be sympathetic for some long. You'd wonder if lots of people will be pushed out of the workforce due to childcare issues if this continues

khalessi · 01-07-2020 11:11pm

PixiePop wrote: »

Creche workers are wearing PPE, would teachers be happy with that, if they were provided with PPE gear daily and obviously an increase in cleaning of all surfaces, child made to hand sanitise, stay at home if they have a temp etc. etc.

If you read posts here teachers would be happy with ppe and extra cleaning as has been said many times before. Teachers want the same protections given to other professions and that could mean daily deep cleaning of classrooms.

PixiePop · 01-07-2020 11:12pm

khalessi wrote: »

EH I havent seen any teachers refuse.

Similar to health really!? That is excellent. You wont mind then if teachers instigate similar ppe safety that will beneifit the staff and students so?

well they're wearing the PPE in creches with much younger children that don't understand the need for it. i'd rather teachers teaching with PPE than no teaching at all

PixiePop · 01-07-2020 11:16pm

khalessi wrote: »

I wouldnt want the stress of this, as we know the public will blame the teachers when it goes tits up

No it's the Govt and teaching unions, I would imagine most teachers would like to revert to a level of normal as much as possible and would like to provide the best level of education that they possibly can to their pupils

Bobtheman · 01-07-2020 11:24pm

PixiePop wrote: »

No it's the Govt and teaching unions, I would imagine most teachers would like to revert to a level of normal as much as possible and would like to provide the best level of education that they possibly can to their pupils

The plan as it stands needs adjustment. It does seem one law for schools another for outside schools . You will need extra staff for allowing 1m between pupils. Classrooms are not big rooms. Thus pupil teacher ratio will be lowered.
Who will pay for the extra cleaning? Schools already underfunded.
If teachers are expected to be front line workers will we be provided with regular tests like nurses ? We will like...
A lot of detail to be sorted. I do hope the unions kick up some dust and I really don't care if that means people moan and groan about unions
Part of the reason for 0 hour contracts is because the bosses got rid of bloody unions .

Bobtheman · 01-07-2020 11:25pm

PixiePop wrote: »

No it's the Govt and teaching unions, I would imagine most teachers would like to revert to a level of normal as much as possible and would like to provide the best level of education that they possibly can to their pupils

The plan as it stands needs adjustment. It does seem one law for schools another for outside schools . You will need extra staff for allowing 1m between pupils. Classrooms are not big rooms. Thus pupil teacher ratio should be lowered.
Who will pay for the extra cleaning? Schools already underfunded.
If teachers are expected to be front line workers will we be provided with regular tests like nurses ? We will like...
A lot of detail to be sorted. I do hope the unions kick up some dust and I really don't care if that means people moan and groan about unions
Part of the reason for 0 hour contracts is because the bosses got rid of bloody unions .

History Queen · 01-07-2020 11:26pm

PixiePop wrote: »

Creche workers are wearing PPE, would teachers be happy with that, if they were provided with PPE gear daily and obviously an increase in cleaning of all surfaces, child made to hand sanitise, stay at home if they have a temp etc. etc.

I can only speak for myself. But I'd be happy enough with that.

Local issue to be addressed would be what to to when the class clown/smart alec decides to cough on /at other students and teachers. (This would be a code of behaviour issue and be down to individual schools and also buy in from parents) not a huge issue in the scheme of things but would need addressing on a school by school basis. Not related to the reopening of schools just thinking it will be another thing we would want to be clear on as teachers/school staff.

Bobtheman · 01-07-2020 11:28pm

You have 25 kids in an avg classroom. Im apart won't work. End of story

amacca · 02-07-2020 1:21pm

History Queen wrote: »

I can only speak for myself. But I'd be happy enough with that.

Local issue to be addressed would be what to to when the class clown/smart alec decides to cough on /at other students and teachers. (This would be a code of behaviour issue and be down to individual schools and also buy in from parents) not a huge issue in the scheme of things but would need addressing on a school by school basis. Not related to the reopening of schools just thinking it will be another thing we would want to be clear on as teachers/school staff.

Theres the thing will kids be made obey the rules via consequences or will it be brushed under the carpet.......

will there be any backup for teachers/management that insist on rules being obeyed or will they be hung out to dry.

solerina · 02-07-2020 1:56pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

You have 25 kids in an avg classroom. Im apart won't work. End of story

This.....We have between 22 and 29 students per class (up to 20 for HEc and 24 for Sci) and not one room in the entire school will fit classes of this size with 1m social distancing...the canteen would but it’s freezing the majority of the time and it’s only one room. My lab would fit 12 at most with 1m social distancing, my smallest class last year was 18.

Mardy Bum · 02-07-2020 2:05pm

solerina wrote: »

This.....We have between 22 and 29 students per class (up to 20 for HEc and 24 for Sci) and not one room in the entire school will fit classes of this size with 1m social distancing...the canteen would but it’s freezing the majority of the time and it’s only one room. My lab would fit 12 at most with 1m social distancing, my smallest class last year was 18.

The government were forced to release this guidance but it will change by September to practically no social distancing.

byhookorbycrook · 02-07-2020 2:29pm

I was watching the Dáil special committee broadcast . Some of the participants were shocked to hear that classrooms don’t have hot water and that many schools don’t have good broadband . There was a vague mention of a “ summer works “ type scheme to “ adapt schools ,” but no mention as to funding or what “ adaptations are needed .

Bobtheman · 02-07-2020 3:46pm

To be honest-we all know Social distancing won't occur in schools. Its not occurring in many workplaces now, There isn't heavy inspection. Im sure its being ignored in bars as we speak. We are great at making laws but men will do as they do-to paraphrase Rousseau.

Im going back with or without social distancing so long as I get proper medical cover in that if I have symptoms I don't have to fork out 60 euro to get a cert. They can improve on that. But I probably wont be asked so I will just be ordered. I probably wont make a fuss unless Im meant to stomach some bull**** like the kids being left in classes while my aging body lumbers around all my books-meanwhile kids destroy the room and each other!!

r93kaey5p2izun · 02-07-2020 4:03pm

I spoke to my consultant today about doing any teaching in September. He advised no unless masks are mandatory. He said that would be the deciding factor in his eyes.

khalessi · 02-07-2020 4:06pm

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

I spoke to my consultant today about doing any teaching in September. He advised no unless masks are mandatory. He said that would be the deciding factor in his eyes.

I have some and I will wear them. I think we have to do what makes us feel safe.

r93kaey5p2izun · 02-07-2020 4:20pm

khalessi wrote: »

I have some and I will wear them. I think we have to do what makes us feel safe.

No his opinion was the mask is to reduce the risk from the wearer not to the wearer, and that if it's not mandatory for other staff and students then I should not do any work in schools. I would only be subbing anyway, and teaching a QQI module once a week, and doing tutoring through a programme for disadvantaged students, as I work elsewhere now. But he felt the risk would be too high for me without that in place.

Rosita · 02-07-2020 11:20pm

PixiePop wrote: »

Schools aren't just workplaces. They're also centres of education. Teachers should not be the only consideration. The lives and futures of hundreds of thousands of children also needs to be factored in. What kind of outcome do they have in life with half an education? Will we have to extend the number of years they spend in school.

You are assuming that there's a specific amount of material that must be covered. And that this must be done at all costs. Not so I'm afraid. The DES may have to revise many of the old assumptions about examinations and syllabi.

We could be in a scenario where there's not a vaccine for a few years if at all. Maybe school as we know it is finished for the foreseeable future. So I would be wary of talking about "half an education" as if that's a definable amount and the only possible "education" is the one that is regarded as that at the moment.

Let's get real. Kids send half their time in school bored senseless learning stuff they don't need to know and struggling with basics at the end of it, while teachers pile on homework because it's expected, and the DES devises mindless classroom strategies which inappropriately conflate activity and productivity. There might be worse things than a total recalibration of how education is delivered.

Rosita · 02-07-2020 11:25pm

khalessi wrote: »

I think we have to do what makes us feel safe.

This isn't really an acceptable alternative to a proper plan though is it? Feeling safe in a work environment is really entry-level stuff. We shouldn't really have to "do" stuff to make us feel safe. An employer has legal obligations to ensure workplace safety.

byhookorbycrook · 02-07-2020 11:28pm

The “ back to work “ declaration is a “ get out of jail free” card for BOMS. As an immuno-suppressed teacher , it’s going to be mask, visor and hand sanitizer to the max . Some vulnerable teachers have been asked to submit a letter to the BOM saying they are ok to work .

joeharte123 · 02-07-2020 11:50pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The “ back to work “ declaration is a “ get out of jail free” card for BOMS. As an immuno-suppressed teacher , it’s going to be mask, visor and hand sanitizer to the max . Some vulnerable teachers have been asked to submit a letter to the BOM saying they are ok to work .

I believe this would be welcomed in schools across the county. Students wear masks, also. Make it part of the uniform.

I understand it’s not a nice look seeing children walking around masks on but hopefully not forever.

Notorious · 03-07-2020 12:05am

One of my worries is what I consider a simple one - cleaning. Our premises is quite large and we have two cleaners who are extremely overstretched. Pre-COVID my classroom would get a quick once over every week. This would involve picking up larger pieces of litter and emptying a bin. Our ETB wouldn't let us replace retired staff (in five years we lost about 6 cleaning staff to retirements). How adequate sanitisation will occur is beyond me.

The ETBs are going to have to start budgeting for more cleaning crew, but we know that it won't happen - it'll be left to the principal who in our case is stretched as it is.

maynooth_rules · 03-07-2020 7:45am

PixiePop wrote: »

Creche workers are wearing PPE, would teachers be happy with that, if they were provided with PPE gear daily and obviously an increase in cleaning of all surfaces, child made to hand sanitise, stay at home if they have a temp etc. etc.

I think the very big issue here is kids with temp being kept at home. Lot of parents just simply won't follow that. We had a bad dose running through the school in November. 1/4 of the school home sick. But there were still 20 or so kids who were as sick as dogs, coughing, splurting and with temps, yet their parents felt it best to send them to school to spread to us and other students

History Queen · 03-07-2020 8:06am

maynooth_rules wrote: »

I think the very big issue here is kids with temp being kept at home. Lot of parents just simply won't follow that. We had a bad dose running through the school in November. 1/4 of the school home sick. But there were still 20 or so kids who were as sick as dogs, coughing, splurting and with temps, yet their parents felt it best to send them to school to spread to us and other students

Employer flexibility will be key here. I wonder would there be an argument for the government to pay parents some sort of covid leave for sick kids so the employer isn't paying for parents to stay home but parents don't feel so under pressure to go to work that they send sick children to school?

km79 · 03-07-2020 8:33am

History Queen wrote: »

Employer flexibility will be key here. I wonder would there be an argument for the government to pay parents some sort of covid leave for sick kids so the employer isn't paying for parents to stay home but parents don't feel so under pressure to go to work that they send sick children to school?

That is a very sensible suggestion
So it will absolutely not happen

mirrorwall14 · 03-07-2020 8:56am

I’m considering emailing my TDs to ask that parental leave be loosened up this winter so that individual days can be taken as needed for childcare. Or some other form of leave that won’t result in disciplinary action From employers. Even if it’s unpaid I’d take it over the stress of trying to manage kids when they are sick

History Queen · 03-07-2020 9:00am

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I’m considering emailing my TDs to ask that parental leave be loosened up this winter so that individual days can be taken as needed for childcare. Or some other form of leave that won’t result in disciplinary action From employers. Even if it’s unpaid I’d take it over the stress of trying to manage kids when they are sick

I didn't think of that. That's a very good idea. I'll email TDs asking for same.

Millem · 03-07-2020 9:03am

PixiePop wrote: »

Creche workers are wearing PPE, would teachers be happy with that, if they were provided with PPE gear daily and obviously an increase in cleaning of all surfaces, child made to hand sanitise, stay at home if they have a temp etc. etc.

I would be happy with that. I teach a practical subject and am always conscious of head lice anyway!!
So my students are used to me saying things like “you hop up there and I will have a look”. I would always wear a hair net and white coat for every cookery class anyway so I doubt my students would even bat an eyelid at me wearing at visor!

Even if teachers wore the ppe gear the students would still need to social distance between themselves. So it wouldn’t solve the problem.

I was listening to Ciara Kelly yesterday and she seemed to think up to third class are back as normal. Does anyone know how many students are in a pod? She didn’t mention though that pods need to be 1m apart?

Treppen · 03-07-2020 9:07am

Millem wrote: »

I would be happy with that. I teach a practical subject and am always conscious of head lice anyway!!
So my students are used to me saying things like “you hop up there and I will have a look”. I would always wear a hair net and white coat for every cookery class anyway so I doubt my students would even bat an eyelid at me wearing at visor!

Even if teachers wore the ppe gear the students would still need to social distance between themselves. So it wouldn’t solve the problem.

I was listening to Ciara Kelly yesterday and she seemed to think up to third class are back as normal. Does anyone know how many students are in a pod? She didn’t mention though that pods need to be 1m apart?

No

Random sample · 03-07-2020 10:05am

They’ve said pods will depend on the numbers and space available in the classroom.

Millem · 03-07-2020 10:09am

Random sample wrote: »

They’ve said pods will depend on the numbers and space available in the classroom.

Ok thanks! There are 25 in my son’s class. I think usually sit at round tables of 5. Doubt there would be 1m between tables tbh!
I know the situation is changing every day but I still think the 1m rule will be in place.
Parents need to know to make plans like hire a minder now instead of after school or apply for parental leave etc

The Wordress · 03-07-2020 10:47am

Yes, I am a bit confused about the first 4 years of education and no social distancing. My child is going into 1st class. I would much prefer if she will be doing a full week at school, for her own educational benefit and because there is no way I will get childcare if she is only in for 2.5 days a week or whatever.

alroley · 03-07-2020 1:15pm

I feel like the government don't know how small a lot of classrooms are. I have to squeeze through tables to just get around the room.
There is no chance six students at one table are socially distanced from those at another table.

Mardy Bum · 03-07-2020 2:25pm

alroley wrote: »

I feel like the government don't know how small a lot of classrooms are. I have to squeeze through tables to just get around the room.
There is no chance six students at one table are socially distanced from those at another table.

Going by Norma Foley's first act as minister, Kerry classrooms will be viewed differently to the rest of Ireland.

thefasteriwalk · 03-07-2020 5:40pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Going by Norma Foley's first act as minister, Kerry classrooms will be viewed differently to the rest of Ireland.

What did she do?

r93kaey5p2izun · 03-07-2020 5:58pm

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

What did she do?

Her first announcement was works for a school in Listowel. (Long overdue and urgently needed, no doubt, but as a choice of first announcement it appears either tone deaf or borderline trolling)

am_zarathustra · 03-07-2020 6:03pm

I thought the same! Stange to be so public about it, even if it happened to be the only school approved today for finding independently of it being in her back garden.........

It does lend credence to the West's annoyance at the lack of ministers....it shouldn't matter, minister should not engage in parish pump politics but tweets like this certainly don't bolster that idea

Bobtheman · 03-07-2020 6:36pm

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

What did she do?

The first rule of politics is get re elected

Bobtheman · 03-07-2020 6:41pm

I would not get bogged down in the current " plan" which is unrealistic in many respects. Dreamt up by officials who rarely visit schools. Kids stay in rooms ! Secondary. That will lead to more hassle than it's worth .
There will be negotiation. There are a lot of teachers with underlying symptoms who would not feel safe returning with the plan as is.
A bigger budget for cleaning and more money for lowering class sizes on a temp basis is to my mind minimum requirements.
Plus teachers need more flexible sick leave. If I'm feeling like I have covid should I have to pay 60 euro to see a doctor because of limits on uncertified days!
That could delay a lot of teachers staying away

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 6:58pm

The aggression in these posts is unbelievable. Actually sad how much disrespect people have for the people they send their children into everyday.

Bobtheman · 03-07-2020 7:10pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I thought the same! Stange to be so public about it, even if it happened to be the only school approved today for finding independently of it being in her back garden.........

It does lend credence to the West's annoyance at the lack of ministers....it shouldn't matter, minister should not engage in parish pump politics but tweets like this certainly don't bolster that idea

One thing that Quinn did right was to remove political interference from school building projects. It probably left office with him.This improvement was obviously in the pipes before she took office. But it didn't help the larger picture.
Outside of Dublin this nonsense seems to get press. In the end funding should permentally be removed from politicians. School building. And a ban on photo ops.

r93kaey5p2izun · 03-07-2020 7:12pm

noddy69 wrote: »

My concern is education of children not "childcare".

But then you're well aware of the shortage of teachers and crisis in teacher recruitment and retention, particularly in Leinster. Where will these people who can teach come from? I assumed you were most concerned with childcare when you were happy to furlough teachers and replace them with non teachers (since replacement teachers are not available in most cases), rather than see the government engage with teacher representatives to ensure funding for safe reopening.

spurious · 03-07-2020 7:12pm

Troll posts against the forum charter will be deleted along with responses to them.

Go elsewhere to whinge about teachers. Not here.

Bobtheman · 03-07-2020 7:15pm

A lot of parents spent time with their darlings and though they be loath to see them go -are anxious for their education to resume. Nothing to do with how difficult their kids can be or high childcare costs. Perish the thought.

Bobtheman · 03-07-2020 7:17pm

No strings attached? What work place is now no strings attached??

spurious · 03-07-2020 7:18pm

Thanks to those who reported the posts against the charter.
Trolls, jog on, or be given a holiday from the forum.

shesty · 04-07-2020 8:53am

maynooth_rules wrote: »

I think the very big issue here is kids with temp being kept at home. Lot of parents just simply won't follow that. We had a bad dose running through the school in November. 1/4 of the school home sick. But there were still 20 or so kids who were as sick as dogs, coughing, splurting and with temps, yet their parents felt it best to send them to school to spread to us and other students

I am at the parental end of that issue actually - work were discussing how to get us back in and possibility of temperature taking (ruled out).But I did point out to my manager that if the kids are sick, previously my minder had taken them assuming they weren't very sick obviously), and I would have gone to work myself anyway.But really if we were doing it properly, a child with a temperature means I should really be staying out of the workplace too, doesn't it??Working from home or whatever.

The whole thing is a minefield.

School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

Comments