more nimbyism in Chapelizod Read Mod Note in OP

AulWan · 16-02-2020 4:43pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

This County is mad. Go to a shopping center when the kids are off school and see the amount of non working parents with their kids wasting the day.

How do you know those parents haven't taken a day annual leave from work because the kids are off school?!?!

Maybe they look at you and think why aren't you at work?!?!?

Mad stuff, Ted!

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 4:51pm

AulWan wrote: »

How do you know those parents haven't taken a day annual leave from work because the kids are off school?!?!

Maybe they look at you and think why aren't you at work?!?!?

Mad stuff, Ted!

Obviously this is just a specific example.
But the point is between free housing in nice areas, handouts and high childcare costs, this Country encourages welfare living.
Obviously some people are in desperate need of help but there are many who could work but choose not to. There are generations of scroungers out there.

Also, the type of people who are been given houses bring a much greater risk of antisocial behavior for a variety of reasons. They dont own the house, havent worked for it and often are less educated.

AulWan · 16-02-2020 5:13pm

Buy into stereotypes much? I hope life always keeps fine for you, and you never find yourself in need of assistance.

As for the selling up to avoid social housing part, well, you just never know.

You could go to all the trouble of selling and moving and then the council could buy the house next door to you in your nice new sanitised social housing free area, and put in a council tenant.

I had no say when the council bought houses in my nice private mature housing estate, including the one directly next door. But you know what? It's worked out fine.

riclad · 16-02-2020 5:18pm

Most council estate,s in dublin are in dublin west,tallaght, ballymun, finglas etc
i can understand if someone pays 400k for a house in a private estate ,
and then after a few years the council decide to build 5 storey apartment block close to the village .
Listen to any talk show, read the forum,s ,we need more house,s in dublin and more apartments .
There is a system to submit an objection if the new building is too large or not suitable the area.
Most anti social behavior is carried out by young people .
if suddenly theres 200 more young people in an area than the chances of crime or anti social behavior increase,s .
In terms of traffic and infrastructure its more effecient to build a 5 storey
block than build house,s .
we need more high density housing in dublin,
phoenix park is quite large,
its ridiculous to say we cannot build any high building near it because it ruins the view .
Anyone in social housing has to pay rent.its not free .
The rent is based on the house hold income .
go to a council estate, you,ll see a car outside most house,s .
i don,t think people on the dole drive cars,s i presume those people are working .

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 5:22pm

AulWan wrote: »

Buy into stereotypes much? I hope life always keeps fine for you, and you never find yourself in need of assistance.

As for the selling up to avoid social housing part, well, you just never know.

You could go to all the trouble of selling and moving and then the council could buy the house next door to you in your nice new sanitised social housing free area, and put in a council tenant.

I had no say when the council bought houses in my nice private mature housing estate, including the one directly next door. But you know what? It's worked out fine.

I dont know if you are disagreeing with me or not.

I said council houses increase the risk of anti-social behavior when compared to your average home buyer. Are you disagreeing?
I did not claim all social houses bring trouble, obviously there are many that are fine.

I also agreed that there are people legitimately in need of help. The problem is the scrounger mentality effects these people negatively.

AulWan · 16-02-2020 5:30pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

I dont know if you are disagreeing with me or not.

I said council houses increase the risk of anti-social behavior when compared to your average home buyer. Are you disagreeing?
I did not claim all social houses bring trouble, obviously there are many that are fine.

I also agreed that there are people legitimately in need of help. The problem is the scrounger mentality effects these people negatively.

I think the risk is being vastly exaggerated and it gets inflamed on sites like these.

I grew up in what was considered a rough council estate, I worked as an employee of the Department of Social Welfare for many years on a hatch and processing claims, and the vast, vast majority of people on social welfare are decent people. They come from all walks of life, as I have found bad luck can hit people at any time of their life.

As for those in social housing, the bad element is a tiny minority. But again, all are tarred with the same brush by "average people" like you. I bought in a private estate myself, and have experienced far more difficult to live with neighbours with anti-social behaviours then I did in the council estate I grew up in.

So lets just say, I don't buy into the stereotypes, and I won't be rushing to put the for sale sign out because of social housing in my estate. Live and let live.

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 6:24pm

AulWan wrote: »

I think the risk is being vastly exaggerated and it gets inflamed on sites like these.

Maybe it is exaggerated but at least you have agreed it is an issue.
The fact that it increases risk at all should give you an indication as to why residents are annoyed.
The rate at which it increases risk is all subjective. Maybe in your personal experience its not that high but you do come from a council estate so consider that your opinion may be biased.

In my experience the vast majority of people are not happy when their neighboring house becomes a council house, this is reality. You may put it down to snobbiness but I can tell you in my case its because I would know there is an increased risk of said people causing problems. Also, without a doubt council houses negatively effect the properties price.

Not even mentioning how unfair it is in some cases. There are people out there who can work but choose not to. I have a fried who bought a house for 400k and there are council houses down the road for free with people who just dont want to work. ( again not all cases but this absolutely exists).

AulWan · 16-02-2020 6:40pm

Don't put words in my mouth. I never agreed there was an extra risk, I said there are good and bad people everywhere. .

And yes, I do come from a council estate and I have no reason to be ashamed of it. What it has given me, is a lack of tolerance for snobbery. I don't suffer from postcode envy, or worry about the fact that I paid for my house and will hopefully have twenty years of living rent/mortage free after its paid off.

Council houses are not free. Maybe you can console your friend by telling him that one day his mortgage will be paid off, while his neighbours will be paying rent to the Local Authority until the day they die. At the end of it all, there won't be as much in the difference between they paid, as you might think.

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 6:59pm

AulWan wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth. I never agreed there was an extra risk, I said there are good and bad people everywhere. .

The very reason council houses were integrated with normal housing and not thrown into council housing estates as they were in the past, is because these estates became dens of antisocial behavior. The idea was that by integrating these people in society you give them a better chance and prevent black zones.

Given this knowledge, to then deny council residence bring more risk is biased denial, not based on facts.

Also you did say extra risk is exaggerated, which acknowledges risk, sorry if I cant read your mind.

AulWan · 16-02-2020 7:10pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

The very reason council houses were integrated with normal housing and not thrown into council housing estates as they were in the past, is because these estates became dens of antisocial behavior. The idea was that by integrating these people in society you give them a better chance and prevent black zones.

Given this knowledge, to then deny council residence bring more risk is biased denial, not based on facts.

Also you did say extra risk is exaggerated, which acknowledges risk, sorry if I cant read your mind.

Let me clarify it for you then. From the benefit of my experience of having lived in both council housing and a private estate, and now a private estate with some social housing, there is as much chance of you ending up with ****ty neighbours in a private estate, as there is in a social housing estate.

As I posted earlier, in my experience some of the worst behaved people I've ever met, are those who grew up with the most privilege.

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 7:17pm

AulWan wrote: »

Let me clarify it for you then. From the benefit of my experience of having lived in both council housing and a private estate, and now a private estate with some social housing, there is as much chance of you ending up with ****ty neighbours in a private estate, as there is in a social housing estate.

As I posted earlier, in my experience some of the worst behaved people I've ever met, are those who grew up with the most privilege.

Of course this is possible, Im not saying there is no risk of anti social behavior from non council neighbors or that all council residents are bad( majority are fine).
Im saying the risk is higher from council houses, if you deny this you are only lying to yourself. How much your risk increases is arguable.

16-02-2020 7:17pm

This country is gas
No-one wants any council houses built near anything at all, but then they go out & vote for sinn fein who will build thousands of social houses!

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 7:19pm

bubblypop wrote: »

This country is gas
No-one wants any council houses built near anything at all, but then they go out & vote for sinn fein who will build thousands of social houses!

Sinn Fein need to focus on why they need to build social houses.

Why are some people choosing not to work?, why are rents so high?, why are house prices so high?

AulWan · 16-02-2020 7:21pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

Of course this is possible, Im not saying there is no risk of anti social behavior from non council neighbors or that all council residents are bad( majority are fine).
Im saying the risk is higher from council houses, if you deny this you are only lying to yourself. How much your risk increases is arguable.

I've clarified my position for you. I'm not going to keep repeating myself again and again.

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 7:22pm

AulWan wrote: »

I've clarified my position for you. I'm not going to keep repeating myself again and again.

Yes based on your limited experience you have decided to deny facts. Clarified.

16-02-2020 7:22pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

Im saying the risk is higher from council houses, if you deny this you are only lying to yourself..

You are claiming that people who live in council houses are more likely to engage in anti social behavior then people who live in private houses. Do you know how that sounds.
It is discrimination & snobbiness & if you deny this you are lying to yourself.

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 7:26pm

bubblypop wrote: »

You are claiming that people who live in council houses are more likely to engage in anti social behavior then people who live in private houses. Do you know how that sounds.
It is discrimination & snobbiness & if you deny this you are lying to yourself.

Its a fact. Its the very reason they decided to integrate social housing.

Its the very reason people dont want council housing in there area. I will give you that for some people snobbiness come to play, but its also based on reality.

The background of some people who end up in social housing makes them and there children more risky to cause trouble in an area. Srry if I hurt anyones feelings.

jimmycrackcorm · 16-02-2020 7:32pm

AulWan wrote: »

Which is exactly WHY social housing should never be built in that way again, and should always be mixed in with private, affordable, and privately rented estates.

Social housing is not always a disaster and doesn't always mean anti-social tenants.

I am a private owner who lives in a mature private estate with all of the above, and there are have been no increases in anti-social behaviour that I have seen, from the houses within the estate that have been purchased by the Council.

It can and does work.

It's too expensive to try to buy private houses for social purposes. Let alone the fact that for integration you'd need to build multiples of private homes.

The real problem is that were unwilling to do anything about anti social behaviour in social housing areas. Evict the perpetrators and you'd soon see it disappear. There should be a social contract that if you're getting a free house then you have to behave otherwise you're out.

AulWan · 16-02-2020 7:32pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

Yes based on your limited experience you have decided to deny facts. Clarified.

Facts you came up with to fit your own bias. I think the one with the limited experience is you, Empty_Space.

I, at least, have lived in a council estate, bought in a private one, and now live in a private estate with some social housing mixed in.

ARe you still rushing to get your for sale sign up, just at the thought of it?

AulWan · 16-02-2020 7:41pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's too expensive to try to buy private houses for social purposes. .

I agree. But it is the solution the Council seems to be defaulting too at the moment, until more houses are built.

Every house in my estate that has come up for sale in the last two years or so has been bought either by the council or by private buyers who then rent them out, rather then live in them.

I don't know if those renting are in receipt of HAP, or paying the full rent themselves. I do see the occupants coming and going morning and evening, so I presume are working.

I haven't seen any increase in anti-social behaviour.

16-02-2020 7:48pm

bubblypop wrote: »

You are claiming that people who live in council houses are more likely to engage in anti social behavior then people who live in private houses. Do you know how that sounds.
It is discrimination & snobbiness & if you deny this you are lying to yourself.

It is proven fact that’s what it is. Just look at council estates and that’s all tbe proof you need.

I don’t see any reason a person can’t express they desire to not want council housing in their estate it’s perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of people that I can guarantee you.

16-02-2020 7:55pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

Its a fact. Its the very reason they decided to integrate social housing.

Its the very reason people dont want council housing in there area. I will give you that for some people snobbiness come to play, but its also based on reality.

The background of some people who end up in social housing makes them and there children more risky to cause trouble in an area. Srry if I hurt anyones feelings.

No that's not fact. That's bias & discrimination in your head.
The reason some old council estates had a bad name, was because of a few problem families.
There are problem families in all estates, I hate to burst your snobby bubble, but that's a fact.

16-02-2020 7:59pm

Kairi Witty Hitter wrote: »

It is proven fact that’s what it is. Just look at council estates and that’s all tbe proof you need.

I don’t see any reason a person can’t express they desire to not want council housing in their estate it’s perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of people that I can guarantee you.

Do you mind putting in a link to where this proof is?
I don't believe you can, it is not a proven fact.
Yea, peoole can say they don't want council housing near them, but they must also realise that others can call them out for exactly what they are. Snobs & discriminating against people less off than themselves.

AulWan · 16-02-2020 8:00pm

Kairi Witty Hitter wrote: »

I don’t see any reason a person can’t express they desire to not want council housing in their estate it’s perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of people that I can guarantee you.

No, it's fine, you can express whatever you want, as long as you're also fine with other people knowing you're a complete snob (and that's the politest term for it.)

/snɒb/
noun
noun: snob; plural noun: snobs

a person with an exaggerated respect for high social position or wealth who seeks to associate with social superiors and looks down on those regarded as socially inferior.

Empty_Space · 16-02-2020 8:06pm

bubblypop wrote: »

No that's not fact. That's bias & discrimination in your head.
The reason some old council estates had a bad name, was because of a few problem families.
There are problem families in all estates, I hate to burst your snobby bubble, but that's a fact.

Finally you just proved me right.

A few problem families. As I have said numerous times I dont think all social houses are bad but you have a much greater chance of getting these problem families in a social house.

Did a fancy non council estate on the southside get a bad name due to a few problem families?, I rest my case.

Cyrus · 16-02-2020 8:10pm

bubblypop wrote: »

No that's not fact. That's bias & discrimination in your head.
The reason some old council estates had a bad name, was because of a few problem families.
There are problem families in all estates, I hate to burst your snobby bubble, but that's a fact.

If you want facts the facts are is that there is far more crime in clondalkin compared to Blackrock

The chances of having anti social behaviour in clondalkin is higher

The amount of council houses in clondalkin is higher

Estates with council houses are more likely to have ‘problem’ families

16-02-2020 8:50pm

Empty_Space wrote: »

Finally you just proved me right.

A few problem families. As I have said numerous times I dont think all social houses are bad but you have a much greater chance of getting these problem families in a social house.

Did a fancy non council estate on the southside get a bad name due to a few problem families?, I rest my case.

What are you talking about? There are a few problem families in a lot of estates, private or council.

You are a snob , & cannot see it.
You are basically saying people with less money than you are more anti social, can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?

Cyrus · 16-02-2020 9:14pm

bubblypop wrote: »

What are you talking about? There are a few problem families in a lot of estates, private or council.

You are a snob , & cannot see it.
You are basically saying people with less money than you are more anti social, can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?

Would you argue against the assertion the more affluent an area the less crime there is ?

16-02-2020 9:18pm

Cyrus wrote: »

Would you argue against the assertion the more affluent an area the less crime there is ?

Not necessarily.
Completely depends on what type of crimes.

woohoo!!! · 16-02-2020 9:27pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Not necessarily.
Completely depends on what type of crimes.

Yep, the guys in suits and driving fancy cars bankrupted this country, 100s of thousands forced to emigrate but yes it's those nasty social housing folk that we have to keep an eye on.

My own estate is a mix of private, affordable and social. There's been a mix of private and social purchases in recent times. No big anti social issues.

anewme · 16-02-2020 9:32pm

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Yep, the guys in suits and driving fancy cars bankrupted this country, 100s of thousands forced to emigrate but yes it's those nasty social housing folk that we have to keep an eye on.

My own estate is a mix of private, affordable and social. There's been a mix of private and social purchases in recent times. No big anti social issues.

I drive a fancy car and work in a corporate office.

I pay huge taxes as do many others like me.

It's not a crime to live in or want to live in a nice area.

Your post smacks of reverse snobbery.

woohoo!!! · 16-02-2020 9:36pm

anewme wrote: »

I drive a fancy car and work in a corporate office.

I pay huge taxes as do many others like me.

It's not a crime to live in or want to live in a nice area.

Your post smacks of reverse snobbery.

No, I'm pointing out that white collar crime had a huge impact but gets nowhere near the same stigma as people in social housing. FWIW I did drive a BMW but it had to go as the children came along, I still miss her

anewme · 16-02-2020 9:42pm

woohoo!!! wrote: »

No, I'm pointing out that white collar crime had a huge impact but gets nowhere near the same stigma as people in social housing. FWIW I did drive a BMW but it had to go as the children came along, I still miss her

The difference is, harsh as it may seem, white collar crime does not impact you directly.

Having to live with scramblers, horses, quad bikes does, skangers hanging round does.

I have friends living in Adamstown who have terrible problems with anti social gangs.

Colking · 16-02-2020 9:46pm

AulWan wrote: »

Which is exactly WHY social housing should never be built in that way again, and should always be mixed in with private, affordable, and privately rented estates.

Social housing is not always a disaster and doesn't always mean anti-social tenants.

I am a private owner who lives in a mature private estate with all of the above, and there are have been no increases in anti-social behaviour that I have seen, from the houses within the estate that have been purchased by the Council.

It can and does work.

You haven't actually taken the time to understand the complaints have you ? I'd advise you to look into the matter a little further, rather than rushing to paint everyone with the nimbyism paintbrush.

Varta wrote: »

As I understand it the residents were promised a mix of social and affordable. Now it's 100% social. Lots of people renting apartments there would like to buy affordable. Doesn't seem fair to only build social.

Spanish Eyes · 16-02-2020 9:46pm

bubblypop wrote: »

No that's not fact. That's bias & discrimination in your head.
The reason some old council estates had a bad name, was because of a few problem families.
There are problem families in all estates, I hate to burst your snobby bubble, but that's a fact.

I don't think you understand that those of us who scrimped and scraped to buy a house under our own steam do not relish the idea of others living next door who didn't have to do that at all, just have a few kids and you're grand, here's the key.

It is normal to resent an immediate occupation of a house with no deposit, no mortgage etc. compared to those who have to pay through the nose.

Perfectly normal IMV.
,

woohoo!!! · 16-02-2020 9:50pm

anewme wrote: »

The difference is, harsh as it may seem, white collar crime does not impact you directly.

Having to live with scramblers, horses, quad bikes does, skangers hanging round does.

I have friends living in Adamstown who have terrible problems with anti social gangs.

Of course, and the state agencies need to step up, deal with those issues and intervene to stop younger kids to follow in their footsteps. A complicated issue that the state has largely failed on.

Eric Cartman · 16-02-2020 9:51pm

woohoo!!! wrote: »

No, I'm pointing out that white collar crime had a huge impact but gets nowhere near the same stigma as people in social housing. FWIW I did drive a BMW but it had to go as the children came along, I still miss her

insurance / claim fraud is technically white collar and we've been clamping down on it pretty heavily, turns out most of it is being done by the same social groups, who would have known.

woohoo!!! · 16-02-2020 9:58pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

insurance / claim fraud is technically white collar and we've been clamping down on it pretty heavily, turns out most of it is being done by the same social groups, who would have known.

Which is good. Have you a link re certain social groups?

woohoo!!! · 16-02-2020 10:01pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't think you understand that those of us who scrimped and scraped to buy a house under our own steam do not relish the idea of others living next door who didn't have to do that at all, just have a few kids and you're grand, here's the key.

It is normal to resent an immediate occupation of a house with no deposit, no mortgage etc. compared to those who have to pay through the nose.

Perfectly normal IMV.
,

I don't resent those on our estate, some of whom I know, whether their house was affordable or social and no I'm not some morally superior person, it just doesn't cross my mind to bother me.

Spanish Eyes · 16-02-2020 10:05pm

woohoo!!! wrote: »

I don't resent those on our estate, some of whom I know, whether their house was affordable or social and no I'm not some morally superior person, it just doesn't cross my mind to bother me.

Fine, and that's a good thing from you. I would totally resent a neighbour who had the same house as me and didn't have to pinch and scrape to get it.

I think that would be the view of most people who have to mortgage to buy really.

I think people are afraid to say it. So I just did. Kill me now!

AulWan · 16-02-2020 10:06pm

There is plenty of anti-social behaviour in all areas of Dublin.

I don't particular care to slap a label on any particular area over the other, especially areas I have never personally lived in, but no area is untouched.

If you want to talk about the wealthier suburbs, have you read about the behaviour of the rugger buggers from the fee paying schools lately? Little ****s.

I've often heard it said, the junkies and the small time dealers live in the council estates, while the money behind it, the big boys, the importers and the distributors all live in much more salubrious surroundings.

So, pick your class of criminal.

woohoo!!! · 16-02-2020 10:09pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Fine, and that's a good thing from you. I would totally resent a neighbour who had the same house as me and didn't have to pinch and scrape to get it.

I think that would be the view of most people who have to mortgage to buy really.

I think people are afraid to say it. So I just did. Kill me now!

I was actually more resentful of the family that bought a few doors down around 2014 for a good bit less than I. But that's just dumb luck re timing.

woohoo!!! · 16-02-2020 10:09pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Fine, and that's a good thing from you. I would totally resent a neighbour who had the same house as me and didn't have to pinch and scrape to get it.

I think that would be the view of most people who have to mortgage to buy really.

I think people are afraid to say it. So I just did. Kill me now!

Double post.

anewme · 16-02-2020 10:14pm

AulWan wrote: »

I've often heard it said, the junkies and the small time dealers live in the council estates, while the money behind it, the big boys, the importers and the distributors all live in much more salubrious surroundings.

So, pick your class of criminal.

Now you know right well that's not true. The big Drug Lords wear Rolexes, drive Porsches and live in corpo/ council houses or a step above.

Clondalkin / Lucan typical example.

Spanish Eyes · 16-02-2020 10:14pm

The D4 or SCD types do not need help. They are and always will be ok.

The rest of us are cannon fodder really. I do realise that there are apartments in Dundrum by the shopping centre, paid for by us. Who are they assigned to I wonder.

Honestly it is like the Chapelizod thread. If you are low paid worker fine. If you are a dolie, with six kids, not so fine.

Prime areas are for purchasers. IMV.

AulWan · 16-02-2020 10:15pm

woohoo!!! wrote: »

I don't resent those on our estate, some of whom I know, whether their house was affordable or social and no I'm not some morally superior person, it just doesn't cross my mind to bother me.

Same.

AulWan · 16-02-2020 10:19pm

anewme wrote: »

Now you know right well that's not true. The big Drug Lords wear Rolexes, drive Porsches and live in corpo/ council houses or a step above.

Clondalkin / Lucan typical example.

Don't presume to tell me what I know or don't know.

Spanish Eyes · 16-02-2020 10:23pm

Can people be honest here.

Those who work hard and build up a deposit, sweat for a mortgage approval and all that, then next door get a key with nothing to do really.

Treppen · 16-02-2020 10:25pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

There is no way the drop is that high.

So where do you build them then? Under the sea? On the moon?

Ronan Lyons says empty Army Barracks, Bus Depots, Industrial Estates...

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2017/02/06/how-to-build-enough-homes/

anewme · 16-02-2020 10:28pm

AulWan wrote: »

Don't presume to tell me what I know or don't know.

Youd think you are the only one who grew up in a Council Estate.

Anyone with 50k cash to spend on a car/ watch is not just a junkie.

more nimbyism in Chapelizod ***Read Mod Note in OP***

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more nimbyism in Chapelizod Read Mod Note in OP