GRA and mortgages

irish_bob · 25-03-2009 11:49am

by far the most dangerous occupation in this country is working on a farm , most gardai never come close to being seriously hurt

Barname · 25-03-2009 11:51am

SWL wrote: »

Is this the calibre of Guards we have in the country not man enough to honour their debts, or so financially naive that they purchased a property based on overtime earnings, anybody that dumb should get some tough love and let them come up a solution without having the tax payer many of whom are in a similar position pay their way.

fair enough Guards get injured during work, but you would want to be pretty naive to think that is not going to happen given the job they do, now the compensation they receive in lieu of an injury is not enough they want to play the victims putting posters up to so the public how bad they have.

The selection process is onerous to enter the guards, so it not like candidates can't change their mind nobody put a gun to their heads and said you MUST join AGS, they happy volunteered for selection, so stop looking for special privileges.

Hope all the construction professionals out there who could argue that because the building boom didn't continue and are now unemployed and may get injured on a building site can get their mortgages paid. The disadvantages of being an Engineer, bricklayer etc some years you’re up some you're down, and many of them are aware of this.

Having Guards in the family I can say the modern Guards are a bunch of mammies boys, they actively enter into a selection process to become Guards, nobody made them do it.
May be time AGS had a look at their selection process, it appears the wrong calibre of individual is getting it

There are disadvantages in every job so Man the Fcuk up, pay your Bills and your way yourself.

+1

excellent post.

Man the Fcuk up

Permabear · 25-03-2009 12:34pm

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Darragh29 · 25-03-2009 1:26pm

dodgyme wrote: »

"They bought these houses not for speculation but to put a roof over their heads and I am shocked by the number of them who are turning to us for help.

This is the bit I've the problem with. I know their own Credit Union was throwing money at Gardai who went to them for a deposit for an investment property and the banks saw them as a safe bet.

Darragh29 · 25-03-2009 1:39pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yeah but if you are living in Dublin, the average house price was at least 400K if it wasn't closer to 500K. I know people will say "ah sure that's what you get for wanting to live in Dublin, if you want to live there, expect to pay stupid money for property, you're living it up in the big smoke so good enough for you, etc, etc, etc." I was born in Dublin, all my family live in Dublin, this is where I was brought up and wasn't exactly open to me to migrate down the country somewhere and move my whole life away from family and friends, get a new job, etc. People in Dublin were treated like pompus pr*cks just for expecting to be able to afford a house in the town/city/suburb where they were brought up.

The pressure to get somewhere to live in Dublin was very real. I've argued this on before here, a house is for living in, it's a roof over your head, for shelter and heat. You can either live in a house or you are homeless, it's that simple. The banks and government (by way of policy decisions), encouraged investors to buy to let and drove up the price of property for every person who just wanted a house to live in.

And don't anyone come back here and say I should have rented, why the f*ck should I rent because I just happen to have been born in Dublin???

The mantra was "if you don't buy now, you'll be trapped in a situation where you will not be able to buy this time next year and you'll be trapped in a rental situation for the rest of your life"...

Who want's that??? Anyone who bought a house on the back of this message was not selfish or greedy, they just wanted a house to live in and NOBODY wants to be paying rent and paying into someone elses retirement fund.

Anyone who started hoovering up investment properties, has caused this problem.

oscarBravo · 25-03-2009 1:50pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

And don't anyone come back here and say I should have rented, why the f*ck should I rent because I just happen to have been born in Dublin???

Due to personal circumstances, I'm currently renting, having owned two houses (sequentially) in the past. Renting is what you do when you can't afford to buy, or are not in a position to do so. It's what I did before I bought my first house, and after I sold it.

The mantra was "if you don't buy now, you'll be trapped in a situation where you will not be able to buy this time next year and you'll be trapped in a rental situation for the rest of your life"...

I'm in my third period of renting. I plan to buy again at some point. Mantras are not always grounded in fact.

Anyone who bought a house on the back of this message was not selfish or greedy, they just wanted a house to live in and NOBODY wants to be paying rent and paying into someone elses retirement fund.

I'd rather own a house than rent one at the moment, but I'm not in a position to do so. When I am, I will.

Besides, renting is the norm for millions of people everywhere. What makes Irish people too good for it?

Darragh29 · 25-03-2009 2:03pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Due to personal circumstances, I'm currently renting, having owned two houses (sequentially) in the past. Renting is what you do when you can't afford to buy, or are not in a position to do so. It's what I did before I bought my first house, and after I sold it. I'm in my third period of renting. I plan to buy again at some point. Mantras are not always grounded in fact. I'd rather own a house than rent one at the moment, but I'm not in a position to do so. When I am, I will.

Besides, renting is the norm for millions of people everywhere. What makes Irish people too good for it?

It's inherent in human beings to want security of tenure and to own something as distinct from renting it. Call it human progress or the need for self or family betterment or the need for security, whatever it is, this is what human beings usually gravitate towards. I've rented in the past, but I wouldn't want to be renting in 20 years time. I'd like to have a nice house in the surberbs and maybe have it paid off early and live my life in peace with my family. That isn't a big ask, is it??? No it isn't, unless you live in this corrupt kip.

jimmmy · 25-03-2009 2:05pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

Anyone who started hoovering up investment properties, has caused this problem.

If investors did not buy or own properties there would be no properties for people to rent. The government encouraged people to be landlords through section 23 and section 27 tax laws. I know more than a few people who bought in to the government hype and borrowed money for property to rent out , and who regret it now.

Permabear · 25-03-2009 2:32pm

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Permabear · 25-03-2009 2:44pm

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thebman · 25-03-2009 2:47pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

People in Dublin were treated like pompus pr*cks just for expecting to be able to afford a house in the town/city/suburb where they were brought up.

Your not entitled to a house in the area you grew up. The prices were determined by the market, you can't complain about that. What did you want the government to do? Block the investor market entirely so you could afford a house?

The pressure to get somewhere to live in Dublin was very real. I've argued this on before here, a house is for living in, it's a roof over your head, for shelter and heat. You can either live in a house or you are homeless, it's that simple. The banks and government (by way of policy decisions), encouraged investors to buy to let and drove up the price of property for every person who just wanted a house to live in.

You can rent, you don't have to buy the house you live in.

And don't anyone come back here and say I should have rented, why the f*ck should I rent because I just happen to have been born in Dublin???

Its not because you were born in Dublin, plenty of people in the countryside have to rent as well because they can't afford a house. You do it because you can't afford the alternative.

The mantra was "if you don't buy now, you'll be trapped in a situation where you will not be able to buy this time next year and you'll be trapped in a rental situation for the rest of your life"...

Who want's that??? Anyone who bought a house on the back of this message was not selfish or greedy, they just wanted a house to live in and NOBODY wants to be paying rent and paying into someone elses retirement fund.

Ah come on, like people didn't know the arse end of property was going to fall out of it. All you have to do is read between the lines that the politicians were shouting and it would have been clear that the property market here wasn't going to last forever. I had pressure put on me to buy a house by family, I told them to fook off and mind their own business and that I couldn't afford a house and in my opinion they were going to end up in trouble for paying that much for their houses because they weren't worth that much which you can work out by looking at how people were affording these homes. People were getting deposits off parents to buy houses and that was obviously not sustainable as there are few people in that position.

I rent and I'm happy renting and the landlords aren't making that much money considering the upkeep on the houses they own. Report anything that needs to be replaced and threaten to move out if they refuse to do it and move out if they don't do it into a house with a decent landlord or ask if you can replace it yourself if you want something replaced that badly and the landlord won't pay for it.

Anyone who started hoovering up investment properties, has caused this problem.

They contributed, anyone that thought the prices were going to increase for the next 10 years after it had already been going on for about 10 years caused this problem TBH. Anyone that refused to rent and bought even though they couldn't afford it caused this problem.

jayteecork · 25-03-2009 2:53pm

How the hell did I get subscribed to this thread?

oscarBravo · 25-03-2009 2:54pm

By me screwing up a thread merge. Just unsubscribe using the "Thread tools" link near the top.

Dr Galen · 25-03-2009 3:04pm

Ah come on, like people didn't know the arse end of property was going to fall out of it. All you have to do is read between the lines that the politicians were shouting and it would have been clear that the property market here wasn't going to last forever.

the really scary thing is that this didn't hold true for many people. They actually thought that we'd have a nice soft landing, and that was only if things didn't keep rising.

The amount of my friends who in last 2 - 3 years who bought was frightening. 1 or 2 actually got pretty good deals and did it the right way, by saving for a deposit, with a bit of help from family and got a decent sized mortgage on the basis of their wages. they're sitting happy enough right now. But the vast majority went out and borrowed silly money on 100% deals to buy shoddy and small apartments and duplexes in all sorts of places, leaving them with long commutes to work and no social life.

Its now very sad hearing them talk about the depreciation in their properties value. None of this would be a problem really if these were places that they could have stayed in for a number of years and weathered the storm, but the reality is most of the properties they bought are totally unsuitable for their future needs i.e raising kids and their all stuck now.

all the recriminations won't do us any good now though. We need to pull together and get through this. people like the GRA are just going to have to deal with their mistakes in buying over-valued property (because like any investment, prices cal go down as well as up) and press on as best we can. There isn't going to be an easy way out for anyone, Public or Private sector

thebman · 25-03-2009 3:18pm

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

the really scary thing is that this didn't hold true for many people. They actually thought that we'd have a nice soft landing, and that was only if things didn't keep rising.

The amount of my friends who in last 2 - 3 years who bought was frightening. 1 or 2 actually got pretty good deals and did it the right way, by saving for a deposit, with a bit of help from family and got a decent sized mortgage on the basis of their wages. they're sitting happy enough right now. But the vast majority went out and borrowed silly money on 100% deals to buy shoddy and small apartments and duplexes in all sorts of places, leaving them with long commutes to work and no social life.

Its now very sad hearing them talk about the depreciation in their properties value. None of this would be a problem really if these were places that they could have stayed in for a number of years and weathered the storm, but the reality is most of the properties they bought are totally unsuitable for their future needs i.e raising kids and their all stuck now.

all the recriminations won't do us any good now though. We need to pull together and get through this. people like the GRA are just going to have to deal with their mistakes in buying over-valued property (because like any investment, prices cal go down as well as up) and press on as best we can. There isn't going to be an easy way out for anyone, Public or Private sector

If people didn't realise it, hard luck but what do they expect people like me that didn't fook up to do. Bail them out? I didn't wish for a crash but I knew it would come so I didn't buy into this nonsense even after I was offered a deposit from my mother. I said, this can't go on much longer because too many people are doing this to buy houses, the prices will fall in the next few years.

I basically hoped against hope we would get a soft landing but I knew it probably wouldn't happen.

I take no pleasure in seeing my friends and family up to their eye balls in debt on properties that are only worth half what they paid when the economy is in such a state that it would be hard to sell these houses even at market prices. I see no pleasure in the entire company going down with this market because of lack of investment to bring other industries to the front by our government not that it would have made much difference given its an international crisis and all purchasing is down so demand for almost all products is down.

There won't be an easy way out, the government can't afford to bail anyone out. The GRA are deluded about the governments current financial position if they are even asking for the government to do something about this. This is going to be a painful recession for our country as a lot of people I fear will end up defaulting on mortgages because there is no other choice. There is little the government can do. The banks can't lend because they need money and they can't get money from the International markets so they have to get at least some of it from the existing assets (mortgages) on their books as they are repaid. We can't afford to let people away with not paying and if you create exemption rules, people will exploit them that aren't in trouble.

Its just going to be a rough ride that isn't going to be pleasant for anyone.

Darragh29 · 25-03-2009 3:25pm

thebman wrote: »

Your not entitled to a house in the area you grew up. The prices were determined by the market, you can't complain about that. What did you want the government to do? Block the investor market entirely so you could afford a house?

I never said I was "entitled" to a house in the area I'm from. But there is something wrong I think when I cannot by virtue of the fact that vested interests are being catered for, work hard and buy a house in the city that I am from. The market was distorted, people were allowed into the market to invest, on the same terms as people who were in the market to buy a house to live in. This never should have been allowed to happen. The outcome now as we all know has been far flung housing estates miles away from where the residents of those houses are working. Who benefits there??? Nobody except the people who built the houses and the government who made a tax windfall from it.

There is such a thing as a "win-win" solution, where the solution can suit citizens, government and businesses, but in all this crap that was going on, nobody was advocating on behalf of the people of this country, funny that, when you think why we elect a government, to represent people, but we have a government that has said to itself, "f*ck the people who vote, we represent big builders/developers and businesses"...

Permabear · 25-03-2009 4:02pm

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Dr Galen · 25-03-2009 4:04pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

There is such a thing as a "win-win" solution, where the solution can suit citizens, government and businesses, but in all this crap that was going on, nobody was advocating on behalf of the people of this country, funny that, when you think why we elect a government, to represent people, but we have a government that has said to itself, "f*ck the people who vote, we represent big builders/developers and businesses"...

so why did they get voted back into power then?? Its already been said many times on this forum , but you do get the government you deserve

thebman · 25-03-2009 4:13pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

I never said I was "entitled" to a house in the area I'm from. But there is something wrong I think when I cannot by virtue of the fact that vested interests are being catered for, work hard and buy a house in the city that I am from. The market was distorted, people were allowed into the market to invest, on the same terms as people who were in the market to buy a house to live in. This never should have been allowed to happen. The outcome now as we all know has been far flung housing estates miles away from where the residents of those houses are working. Who benefits there??? Nobody except the people who built the houses and the government who made a tax windfall from it.

You can't determine properly who is an investor and who isn't. There are people who buy their first homes that are investors as they are planning to sell that home and move up the "property ladder".

People should be allowed invest in property, otherwise there wouldn't be a rental market.

The real problem in the country was extremely bad planning and corruption/lobbying played a large part of that.

There is such a thing as a "win-win" solution, where the solution can suit citizens, government and businesses, but in all this crap that was going on, nobody was advocating on behalf of the people of this country, funny that, when you think why we elect a government, to represent people, but we have a government that has said to itself, "f*ck the people who vote, we represent big builders/developers and businesses"...

Yes its not such much funny as tragic IMO but that is why political donations should be stopped and make taking donations/bribes a crime and a politician should be fined heavily for committing the offense or in extreme cases prison sentences.

segaBOY · 25-03-2009 6:27pm

thebman wrote: »

Your not entitled to a house in the area you grew up. The prices were determined by the market, you can't complain about that. What did you want the government to do? Block the investor market entirely so you could afford a house?

They should have blocked it somewhat, a lot of economists and ordinary men on the street were shouting that years ago...we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now if they acted the way they should have.

Agree with most of the rest of your post tho.

TomRooney · 26-03-2009 2:25am

irish_bob wrote: »

by far the most dangerous occupation in this country is working on a farm , most gardai never come close to being seriously hurt

actualy it is building sites, more people die on building sites than any other industry, maybe all the out of work construction people should get there rents and mortgages paid. closely followed by fisher men and farmers, gardai are nowhere on the list.

jimmmy · 26-03-2009 11:03am

Too true. Not only that, the Gardai are better paid by those very people you mention ( eg Construction workers, farmers, fishermen ) who pay the govt taxes to emply people like the Gardai, plus the Gardai have more secure employment, better sick day provisions, better pensions ( no small perk ), no downtime because of bad weather, no early retirement etc. As a policeman from abroad said, the Gardai pay needs to be cut 30% minimum.

ArphaRima · 26-03-2009 11:18am

Ah now, no frontline PAYE earner should have their pay cut 30%. I think what is reasonably being aimed for is between 10-15% across the board for all.

The likes of the CS know they have done well through public partnership and benchmarking. They will take hits on a few fronts for some of their more outlandish practices and perks, but the pay will remain relatively intact.
What is likely to happen is a pay freeze, no CPI increases(or decreases!), and gradual changes to pension entitlements etc.
Their salaries will stagnate for a few years to bring them in line with others. I think this is what will happen. As opposed to what many think should happen.

irish_bob · 26-03-2009 11:24am

TomRooney wrote: »

actualy it is building sites, more people die on building sites than any other industry, maybe all the out of work construction people should get there rents and mortgages paid. closely followed by fisher men and farmers, gardai are nowhere on the list.

im sorry but you are wrong on this one , farmers are a particulary complacent bunch when it comes to safety and thier is almost zero enforcement of safety regulations on farms compared to building sites , almost no such thing as a man with a file calling round to a farm to check what may be a hazzard

molloyjh · 26-03-2009 11:25am

jimmmy wrote: »

Too true. Not only that, the Gardai are better paid by those very people you mention ( eg Construction workers, farmers, fishermen ) who pay the govt taxes to emply people like the Gardai, plus the Gardai have more secure employment, better sick day provisions, better pensions ( no small perk ), no downtime because of bad weather, no early retirement etc. As a policeman from abroad said, the Gardai pay needs to be cut 30% minimum.

30%? That's ridiculous. Certainly the amount of overtime needs to be looked at as it is costing an incredible amount, and maybe pay cuts do need to be investigated too, but 30%? That means that a new on the beat Garda would be on minimum wage at best. What kind of lunacy is that!?

A new Garda starts on approx €25k a year if memory serves. 70% of that is €17.5k, which as far as I know is actually below the minimum wage. Given the way things are going with the budgets and the pension levy that's a net income of less that €1,400 a month. How do you suppose a Garda in Dublin is going to live on that!? Have a think about the cost of rent, bills, food and transport and see what you think all that would come to in a month in Dublin. Then maybe you could see the madness in that 30%. And you say 30% minimum!

I'm not even going to address the "downtime because of bad weather" point, that's just laughable.

irish_bob · 26-03-2009 11:27am

fluffer wrote: »

Ah now, no frontline PAYE earner should have their pay cut 30%. I think what is reasonably being aimed for is between 10-15% across the board for all.

The likes of the CS know they have done well through public partnership and benchmarking. They will take hits on a few fronts for some of their more outlandish practices and perks, but the pay will remain relatively intact.
What is likely to happen is a pay freeze, no CPI increases(or decreases!), and gradual changes to pension entitlements etc.
Their salaries will stagnate for a few years to bring them in line with others. I think this is what will happen. As opposed to what many think should happen.

whooah , this is news to me that the CS know they have done well , from reading boards and other sites this past few months , all evidence suggests civil servants believe they were martyrs for the country while those in the private sector earned a mint

ArphaRima · 26-03-2009 11:37am

whooah , this is news to me that the CS know they have done well , from reading boards and other sites this past few months , all evidence suggests civil servants believe they were martyrs for the country while those in the private sector earned a mint

Yes but they are the school leaver General Operatives and Personal Assistants who try to compare themselves to CEO's of multinational companies. They do it for less salary and glory out of goodwill towards the irish people.
The unions and anyone within who looks out over the parapet would know how well they've done.
They will also recognise how strong their position is, especially given how weak this government is. They will fight to hold the important stuff(pay/leave/pensions etc.), and feign resistance to what they know they can give up.

TomRooney · 26-03-2009 12:58pm

irish_bob wrote: »

im sorry but you are wrong on this one , farmers are a particulary complacent bunch when it comes to safety and thier is almost zero enforcement of safety regulations on farms compared to building sites , almost no such thing as a man with a file calling round to a farm to check what may be a hazzard

it is you who is wrong, lok at the statistics, construction workers and fisher men have a higher level of fatalitys in the workplace than farmers ever did.

TomRooney · 26-03-2009 1:01pm

irish_bob wrote: »

whooah , this is news to me that the CS know they have done well , from reading boards and other sites this past few months , all evidence suggests civil servants believe they were martyrs for the country while those in the private sector earned a mint

the CS will always do well regardless of what happens, they have job security which is the most important thing a person can have.

as for the private sector making a mint that is just another one of thoise urban myths, the only people who done well out of the "celtic tiger" where the big business people the people who already had money, for the ordinary joe little changed and very few ever seen this mythical celtic tiger.

Permabear · 26-03-2009 1:06pm

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jimmmy · 26-03-2009 1:41pm

TomRooney wrote: »

as for the private sector making a mint that is just another one of thoise urban myths, the only people who done well out of the "celtic tiger" where the big business people the people who already had money, for the ordinary joe little changed and very few ever seen this mythical celtic tiger.

Hear hear. The going rate, for example, for someone I know with a third level qualification, working hard ( plenty of pressure ) in an American multinational I know of in Ireland is in the low 30's, and she has ten years experience there. She is one of the educated, lucky ones in the private sector. Its possible in a year or 2 the company may be gone. Incidentally her management / bosses from the States are always amazed at the high public service sector costs in this country, and how inefficient it is.

molloyjh · 26-03-2009 2:28pm

TomRooney wrote: »

as for the private sector making a mint that is just another one of thoise urban myths, the only people who done well out of the "celtic tiger" where the big business people the people who already had money, for the ordinary joe little changed and very few ever seen this mythical celtic tiger.

I'm sorry, but that is total nonesense. I personally did very well out of the celtic tiger and I never even made it to middle management nevermind the top. I spent the entire Celtic Tiger in the private sector and am now in a position where I own a house, with a games room with multiple guitars, games consoles, kick ass tv, surround sound, PC etc. This all funded by the money I earned in the private sector during the boom years. I've been on foreign holidays every year and have almost always had a number of weekends away in places like New York or Copenhagen or wherever. And I don't even have any real debt to speak of (aside from the mortgage).

Compare this to the 80's and then come back and tell me that the boom did nothing for the ordinary joe. I see flat-screen, wide-screen LCD HD TVs in more houses than not now. Games stores are earning huge money selling consoles and related products. I am not an isolated case. Trips to New York for Christmas shopping was widespread over the last number of years, in fact everytime I went there the one thing I noticed was the number of Irish people with loads of shopping bags hanging out of their arms.

People seem to take so many of these things for granted now, but the average guy on the street did very bloody well out of the Celtic Tiger, which is why few people were really complaining about the country over the last few years and why we kept voting in a Government that were running the country into the ground, because we were all so focused on trying to maintain our newfound "status" to even consider the consequences.

jimmmy wrote: »

Hear hear. The going rate, for example, for someone I know with a third level qualification, working hard ( plenty of pressure ) in an American multinational I know of in Ireland is in the low 30's, and she has ten years experience there. She is one of the educated, lucky ones in the private sector. Its possible in a year or 2 the company may be gone. Incidentally her management / bosses from the States are always amazed at the high public service sector costs in this country, and how inefficient it is.

I have 10 years experience in my field and am on a good deal more. In fact I am on at best the same, if not a little lower, now than I was in the private sector a year ago. I'm not sure what your point is as most qualified people with similar experience I know are doing fairly well for themselves at the moment (my OH has 12-13 years experience, no 3rd level education and is not in a "specialised" field and she is on the same money as me). I reached that level of pay with 5-6 years, and I wasn't even in a "specialised" field like IT at the time. So I'm not sure what your example proves.

jimmmy · 26-03-2009 3:08pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I see flat-screen, wide-screen LCD HD TVs in more houses than not now. Games stores are earning huge money selling consoles and related products. I am not an isolated case. Trips to New York for Christmas shopping was widespread over the last number of years

Are most of your friends public servants / govt employees of some description ? Possibly there are some sectors / parts of the country that did see the Celtic Tiger. I know maybe 500 to 1000 people and never heard of anyone of them going to New York for Christmas shopping.

ArphaRima · 26-03-2009 3:21pm

Are most of your friends public servants / govt employees of some description ? Possibly there are some sectors / parts of the country that did see the Celtic Tiger. I know maybe 500 to 1000 people and never heard of anyone of them going to New York for Christmas shopping.

Ah now come on. I've been to New York a few times on holiday. Shopping there is FAR cheaper than here. It makes sense to go there on cheap tickets, and pay for a hotel approaching christmas. Its a really cheap holiday then.
You cant even aim that towards the PS/CS. You are just begrudging all who earn more than you, and assuming they are PS/CS.
Besides what this has to do with the GRA I dont know.

Newaglish · 26-03-2009 3:43pm

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I wouldn't class the Garda salary as good tbh; starts at €25k and takes 17 years to get to €47k. Not much better than entry-level CO in the civil service but with (I would have thought) less prospect for promotion.

A lot of Gardaí take the crappy salary because they love the job - I'd do the same tbh. Same goes for the army and a few other things like that.

That said, I wouldn't like to have to foot the bill if other PS workers didn't get a similar deal.

Absolute, complete nonsense. Yes, it starts in the mid 20k range but you can be on 50k within 5 years very easily.

I come from a family of Gardai and I know what I'm saying is correct.

molloyjh · 26-03-2009 4:06pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Are most of your friends public servants / govt employees of some description ? Possibly there are some sectors / parts of the country that did see the Celtic Tiger. I know maybe 500 to 1000 people and never heard of anyone of them going to New York for Christmas shopping.

You don't have a great memory do you!? If you did you would remember me saying previously that most people I know are private sector. You also didn't pay much attention to detail on my post, given that my point was that I did all that while I was working in the private sector.

Oh and it's been fairly common knowledge that lots of Irish people have been doing their Christmas shopping in New York, pay particular attention to the last link:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/christmas-shopping-in-new-york-you-monster-1231802.html
https://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/nov/09/we-philadelphia-and-boston-not-ny-for-shopping/
www.isme.ie/stg/public/download.php?site=site3008&file=08298foreignspend.doc
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/11/11/story28164.asp

If you know that many people and have never heard of any of them going to NY then either you know a very bizarre/limited cross-section of the population or they just went and never told you!!

thebman · 26-03-2009 4:08pm

I only know a few people online that went to NY for shopping trips. They only went to buy electronics which are so much cheaper in the states it isn't even funny. They just covert the dollar prices into euro and add a bit for Ireland on electronics so it definitely paid off if you were buying an iPhone or a laptop. Just take it out of the box and carry it onto the plane like you left with it.

Darragh29 · 26-03-2009 4:21pm

thebman wrote: »

You can't determine properly who is an investor and who isn't. There are people who buy their first homes that are investors as they are planning to sell that home and move up the "property ladder".

People should be allowed invest in property, otherwise there wouldn't be a rental market.

If I bought an apartment 5 years ago, and then got married and wanted to move up the property ladder, sell my 2 bed apartment and buy a 3 bed house with a garden because I wanted to start a family and wanted some more space, this isn't an investment decision as you suggest!!!

This is just me wanting to start a family and get on with my life! In doing so, I'm not distorting the property market or selfishly depriving another family of a house that they could buy. For every one of me in the past, there were many people running around in BMW's hoovering up property everywhere.

To suggest that the government cannot differentiate investors/speculators, from first time buyers or people selling one property to buy another larger one for family/personal reasons, is to fundamentally misunderstand the tax system. The government know exactly how many properties each person owns and whether they are a first time buyer or an investor. This is how they can give tax relief for owner occupiers. If we preserved the property market for people who wanted to buy houses to live in, while making it unattractive to selfishly hoover up houses left right and centre, we would simply not be in this mess.

This country is completely f*cked up when it comes to housing. If you are on social welfare, the government gives you a house or else gives you the money to rent a house, if you are wealthy, you could buy as many houses as you wanted, but if you were working and earning 40K a year, you had to borrow your boll*x to get a mortgage and put a roof over your head!!!

thebman · 26-03-2009 5:13pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

If I bought an apartment 5 years ago, and then got married and wanted to move up the property ladder, sell my 2 bed apartment and buy a 3 bed house with a garden because I wanted to start a family and wanted some more space, this isn't an investment decision as you suggest!!!

This is just me wanting to start a family and get on with my life! In doing so, I'm not distorting the property market or selfishly depriving another family of a house that they could buy. For every one of me in the past, there were many people running around in BMW's hoovering up property everywhere.

To suggest that the government cannot differentiate investors/speculators, from first time buyers or people selling one property to buy another larger one for family/personal reasons, is to fundamentally misunderstand the tax system. The government know exactly how many properties each person owns and whether they are a first time buyer or an investor. This is how they can give tax relief for owner occupiers. If we preserved the property market for people who wanted to buy houses to live in, while making it unattractive to selfishly hoover up houses left right and centre, we would simply not be in this mess.

So kill the rental market so you can afford a house in your area. Guess what happens to renting prices when you do that?

There is nothing wrong with buying to rent and you don't have to live in the house in this case. You want to distort the market. Housing is a market, again you don't have to buy a house, your choosing to because you don't want to rent. There are plenty of people that are happy to rent and you want them to pay more rent so you can get a cheaper house as when you reduce the investor market, you drive down supply which increases demand (artificially) and drives up rent prices.

Johnboy Mac · 26-03-2009 6:47pm

An Garda are 'Special' or did nobody know that?

nice_guy80 · 26-03-2009 7:29pm

i wonder if the guards who have 3/4 mortgages for property round Dublin are struggling?

the guards have their own bank/credit union that gives them unbelievably low rate mortgages and loans without much hassle

don't think they've much to complain about

segaBOY · 26-03-2009 9:24pm

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

An Garda are 'Special' or did nobody know that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmumHQM7vmA

News to most of us! :P joking.

Do most Gardai get their mortgages through the GRA? I remember about a year ago seeing a Garda payslip-it had the gross payment with various deductions, one was a loan repayment-I presumed it was a Garda Credit Union one, just wondering if anyone knows if they get their mortgage through GRA recommended channels is it the same deal? Means they wouldn't have much chance to default if it was.

irish_bob · 26-03-2009 9:42pm

just thought id throw this in

one of my uncles is ex gardai , he spent his entire career guarding the british embassy , worked all ther over time he possibly could , done a double tour as he called it every christmas day without fail ( money was his god ) and by the time he retired he lived in donnybrook , owned a house which he rents out in blackrock and owns 40 acres of farm land in meath , granted he married a woman with a bit of money , she more or less bought the house in donnybrook in the 70,s and he bought the farm in the mid 80,s when it cost him 40 thousand punts , still , its a hell of a portfolio for someone who never made it past rank and file

Merch · 26-03-2009 10:45pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is not Switerland by a longshot, I dont know where you live but if you have ever spent your hard earned money on the rented accomodation and dealt with some (not all) but most landlords I have or my friends have come across are arses with consideration for the state of the property they were letting, the tenants privacy or name anything usually **** treatment.
That guy Darragh is like everyone in this country has a reasonable entitlement to live near his family and work and not have to commute (as thousands from Dublin and other counties have been forced)
The family can be the cornerstone of support in most cultures throughout this world.
There are little or no regulations regarding renting and by this individuals/couples are entitled to have their own property (that is not some box apartment where the management company dont give a **** but you still pay.
Compare management companies to the UK or the continent there are rules I know people in Spain (not holiday apts, living ther) Spain, swimming pools, gym, properly maintained gardens, security, storage space in garage area.UK management companies that do their job, maintenance follow up with landlords.
As for cultural superiority about home ownership, it was part of this nations history! I dont see politicians renting
Any ordinary decent working person has the right to home ownership if they want. It shouldnt be such an unregulated market that it goes out of control and the reach of the average wage.
How do you control a free market, rent controls and standards double edged sword, increase standards for tenants and reduce the massive incentives that were created and pushed prices out of the ordinary peoples way.
No regulations screwed the banking and housing systems so no one can say you cant hold freemarket back unless they have a vested interets and dont want anyone interfering with their money printing machine.

I own my house (with mortgage) thankfully I bought years ago but Im not giving it the Im ok Im sorted, or it doesnt affect me it does in other ways.
Bigger boom bigger bust affects competiveness, jobs look where it all is now!
I am ranting and not just at the quote I read above,

What has this to do with the GRA well were all in this now, lots have mortgages that were forced onto them (fear of not getting on or even getting off the ladder) No one specific group deserves special treatment over others in this regard.
Long time getting to my point but just so mad!

nice_guy80 · 26-03-2009 11:32pm

nobody ever forced anyone to buy a house

i think i'll keep renting until i really have to buy - as in married and family arriving.

this idea that rent is wasted money is a joke! who perpetuates this myth? builders and developers and banks. who want to sell mortgages.

If buying a house substantially lowers your standard of living due to high cost of servicing the mortgage plus running the house then you should not go near buying a house.

And add in negative equity at the moment too

jimmmy · 27-03-2009 11:51am

irish_bob wrote: »

just thought id throw this in

one of my uncles is ex gardai , he spent his entire career guarding the british embassy , worked all ther over time he possibly could , done a double tour as he called it every christmas day without fail ( money was his god ) and by the time he retired he lived in donnybrook , owned a house which he rents out in blackrock and owns 40 acres of farm land in meath , granted he married a woman with a bit of money , she more or less bought the house in donnybrook in the 70,s and he bought the farm in the mid 80,s when it cost him 40 thousand punts , still , its a hell of a portfolio for someone who never made it past rank and file

We all know Gardai like that. I know another Guard, not too bright but a nice enough fella, and he has a holiday villa in Portugal and a house he lets out. When he was "working" he was often doing other little jobs for himself/ doing his errands. He took early retirement + gets a bigger pension for doing nothing than many a worker I know.

Dark_lord_ire · 27-03-2009 1:38pm

TomRooney wrote: »

to be quite honest.....SO WHAT!

what about all the plasterers, brickys,carpenters, and labourers with no job and no prospect of a job.

what about the soldiers in the army, who are taking pay cuts on duty money aswell as the pension levy.

the list is endless, the Gardai deserve no special treatment over any other worker in this country. besides the fact the Gardai already enjoy a good salary and job security they have nothing to complain about.

I've just come in on this

i am a garda and being honest im happy with what i earn. But i do have a few points to get across gardai if they went to the right banks would have money thrown at them, as the bank took overtime into account and also pay rises. I did not go in for this as i saw this mess comming i do own a house but i can afford it i know some lads who are in trouble now. Earning half what they did last year. now in fairness to anyone if you were earning 50K would you want to give it up? human nature to keep what you can and you live to your means. 50K is not much ok gets you the extra bedroom in the house really thats about it and you still spend very little as you pay off your home loan. I know guys coming away with under 90 euro a week to live on. Not their fault they were given money by the banks.

As for lads with a trade they earned over 100K a year if they were anyway good at all and that was driving up prices working on the sites so its a circle. The boom had to end instead of coming to a soft stop its been a car crash.

the army earn very little true enough but gardai are out on the streets stopping crime and if the gardai stayed in a barracks all day well they country would come apart in a day. The army do important work overseas and when they do UN duty they get well paid for it

Last point then i'll shut up i promise

gardai have a good pension but the general belief is that its just handed to us. i like all others i have paid into it from day one. I pay everyweek so i'm entitled to it, granted i started paying in at 20 but now i see it as wise. How many guys in the boom years thought of a pension?? I know someone will come along and say the pension market for public sector has been so devalued whats the pint of having one. but thats just now in a few years that will recover. Everyone expented house prices to rise forever but over a 35 year loan something like this had to happen.

We will all come out the other end of this, i will pay my way

Dark_lord_ire · 27-03-2009 1:47pm

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I wouldn't class the Garda salary as good tbh; starts at €25k and takes 17 years to get to €47k. Not much better than entry-level CO in the civil service but with (I would have thought) less prospect for promotion.

A lot of Gardaí take the crappy salary because they love the job - I'd do the same tbh. Same goes for the army and a few other things like that.

That said, I wouldn't like to have to foot the bill if other PS workers didn't get a similar deal.

snubbleste wrote: »

According to the CSO, the average weekly earnings for a Garda is €1,266 (€1,054 excl overtime) in March 2008. Yes, I know what the GRA site says..

Starting out gardai earn hardly anything. In fairness it does get good but not for many years that figure of 1054 euro im not earning that. Is that average of all gardai of all ranks because when you start adding the higer ranks in of course the average will go up.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I have never known a poor Garda in all my life, even when things were dire. No disrespect, but they will have to bear it like the rest of us and be glad that they have a permanent job. Too much spending money on other things? Interest rates at near zero.... no excuses. What are they going to do when the recovery starts and the rates rise very quickly?

i'm not complaining i think the GRA made a mess out of it. Alot of us see that we have to take this cut, the problem being is not everyone can afford to take it. If i was a teacher i would like to what i earn and the banks would lend me x amount knowing that i would not get overtime, in the gardai the banks asked for your overtime printouts in many cases so they could lend more and earn more. i do know gardai in dublin that were doing 40 hours up to 70 hours a month in overtime thats now gone to 0

jimmmy · 27-03-2009 2:06pm

Dark_lord_ire wrote: »

i will pay my way

You mean you are guaranteed to have a guaranteed job, because those who pay your wages earn less than yourself. Those on the average industrial wage do not have your salary, security or fat subsidised pension.

molloyjh · 27-03-2009 2:21pm

jimmmy wrote: »

We all know Gardai like that.

You mean Gardai who work their arses off? I hope your not suggesting that he shouldn't have been remunerated for that work!?

jimmmy wrote: »

I know another Guard, not too bright but a nice enough fella, and he has a holiday villa in Portugal and a house he lets out. When he was "working" he was often doing other little jobs for himself/ doing his errands. He took early retirement + gets a bigger pension for doing nothing than many a worker I know.

I know a lot of people in either sector and different industries who act the maggot but I don't hold them as being representative of all the people in that area.

jimmmy wrote: »

You mean you are guaranteed to have a guaranteed job, because those who pay your wages earn less than yourself. Those on the average industrial wage do not have your salary, security or fat subsidised pension.

Nice of you to put words in his mouth, but ultimately you're just forcing your view onto what other people are saying. It's all sounding very sad and bitter at this stage. As a result I think here endeth my involvement in this thread.

GRA and mortgages

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