GRA and mortgages

thebman

I'm not saying they are "better" per se, but there are higher paid and easier jobs out there. Yet these people make the choice to put themselves in harms way and we get the benefit. Surely we should appreciate that choice more than that of someone who decides to sit at a PC in an office all day contributing to some companies bottom line and nothing more (which is what I've been doing!).

In most cases they aren't in harms way and I imagine they don't put themselves in harms way if they can away with it. They'd call in back up if possible and leave the gang of criminals alone rather than get involved alone and get the crap kicked out of them and rightly so.

They are paid to protect but they aren't paid to put themselves in danger against the odds in most circumstances and they don't do this mostly. What makes up the majority of police calls? I doubt it is a violent crime being committed and get there in 30 seconds so you can catch the guy in the act and risk getting shot type scenario's. That is too much Hollywood TV I think.

dodgyme

thebman wrote: »

They are paid to protect but they aren't paid to put themselves in danger against the odds

perhaps the gra can look at this instead of preferential ....sorry special treatment in the area of mortgages for their members?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

djk1000

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that many gardai have mortgages with a partner, that partner may be in private employment/lost a job and is causing the arrears.

Don't agree that the gardai should get any special favours though, anyone that is suffering right now should be given a break, particularly where the banks are involved, they played their part in causing all this sillyness, they should be playing more of a part in helping the people they screwed.

dodgyme

djk1000 wrote: »

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that many gardai have mortgages with a partner, that partner may be in private employment/lost a job and is causing the arrears..

what kinda of argument is that. What about 2 private sector workers. ?

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

djk1000

dodgyme wrote: »

what kinda of argument is that. What about 2 private sector workers. ?

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

Not an argument per se, the jist of several posts was that Garda jobs and salaries are secure, interest rates are down, so what's the problem? I'm just pointing out that the other half of the capacity to pay the mortgage might be under strain.

As for 2 private sector workers under strain, they should be helped out as much as a public sector, or a public/private combo couple would be, no more no less, we're all citizens and none are more equal than others.

jonsnow

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

and nurses dont forget the nurses

thebman

djk1000 wrote: »

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that many gardai have mortgages with a partner, that partner may be in private employment/lost a job and is causing the arrears.

Don't agree that the gardai should get any special favours though, anyone that is suffering right now should be given a break, particularly where the banks are involved, they played their part in causing all this sillyness, they should be playing more of a part in helping the people they screwed.

How would you suggest everyone be given a break when we are running a 20 billion deficit on current expenditure?

Anyway people that made bad investments don't deserve to be bailed out and that realistically included the banks. Them given out mortgages was an asset on their books. It was an investment really on the basis that the person would be able to pay it back. A risk they took that hasn't paid off.

They were bailed out on the basis that they were too big to fail and that wasn't correct but maybe it needed to be done. I don't have all the figures for that. I don't see how everyone else can be expected to be bailed out though. People with mortgages aren't too big to fail. With the numbers involved, collectively maybe they are, again I don't know the figures. If it is the case then I guess we will but there should be heavy burdens placed on these people going forward for making their poor investment so they don't just do it again next time there is an upturn otherwise there is no lesson learned.

They should have to pay off these debts regardless and the banks should have to compensate the government for any money put into them by the government in the long run with interest (isn't there a clause like this in their recapitialisation?). there damn well should be if there isn't.

jonsnow

dodgyme wrote: »

what kinda of argument is that. What about 2 private sector workers. ?

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

and nurses dont forget the nurses

dodgyme

jonsnow wrote: »

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

and nurses dont forget the nurses

sorry forgot!- my sister is a nurse and her car broke down near kinnegad (I think she had the uniform on). Garda stops to help and low and behold they recognised each other from coppers the previous wednesday night!

Atleast I was able to turn back to dublin as I was onroute to help her before she rang me next from kilcock 20 mins later with car on the side of the road again!

RustySpoon

jimmmy wrote: »

I have sometimes seen them do their shopping / pricing around for personal stuff while in uniform / being paid.

I have also seen Chefs, prison officers and schoolkids in uniform shopping & pricing stuff. Gardai get breaks, they also eat while in uniform as bringing a change of clothes is a bit much. Everyone just thinks that they should be "on Duty" every second of every day.

molloyjh

jimmmy wrote: »

"all" walks of life ? I know many a person ( who are not in the public sector) who has not had a holiday in the past 2 years and may never again.

That's a bit of a shocker given that the recession isn't even 2 years old yet! I don't know anyone who wasn't on a holiday last year, and most of the people I know work in the private sector.

jimmmy wrote: »

Thats part of the scandal, the huge overtime rates.

Is it the rates or the amount they do? The Gardai are so fundamentally under-resourced that to maintain even a poor service requires overtime to be done.

jimmmy wrote: »

"They work - thats their job. There are harder jobs in the world. I have sometimes seen them do their shopping / pricing around for personal stuff while in uniform / being paid. As regards "the balls to do", speak for yourself, do not speak for others.

I said "probably". And who here hasn't booked a flight online while in work or something like that? We all do it, why shouldn't they?

jimmmy wrote: »

"lol lol Its among the best in the world.

And the cost of living in Ireland is among the highest in the world.

jimmmy wrote: »

"Nobody is snotty with the Gardai, just the audacity of the GRA if they are putting on the poor mouth in this time of deflation / world economic crises.

We've had people here talking about how they aren't getting injured the way they are claiming, you yourself were complaining about Gardai doing personal stuff on work time.

jimmmy wrote: »

Thats their job, to protect people.

So you feel they should get no extra thanks beyond their salary? Would you be as grateful to someone in McDonalds for serving you a Big Mac as you would be a Garda who prevented someone mugging you or a nurse/doctor that saved your life? I mean after all its equally part of the McDonalds employees job to serve you crap food as a Gardas job to protect you.

thebman wrote: »

In most cases they aren't in harms way and I imagine they don't put themselves in harms way if they can away with it. They'd call in back up if possible and leave the gang of criminals alone rather than get involved alone and get the crap kicked out of them and rightly so.

They are paid to protect but they aren't paid to put themselves in danger against the odds in most circumstances and they don't do this mostly. What makes up the majority of police calls? I doubt it is a violent crime being committed and get there in 30 seconds so you can catch the guy in the act and risk getting shot type scenario's. That is too much Hollywood TV I think.

I never said anything about against the odds. The last raid my father was a part of was one on a travellers camp. They went in in force, but that just limits the risk, it doesn't remove it altogether. My experiences of the Gardai are based on mainly my fathers own experiences over the last 30 years so there's no Hollywood BS here thanks.

dodgyme wrote: »

perhaps the gra can look at this instead of preferential ....sorry special treatment in the area of mortgages for their members?

As I mentioned above the GRA can only speak for their members and the proposals mentioned here are ones others have looked for elsewhere so its not just the GRA.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's getting into a whole other debate re the overall remuneration package, which I do have issues with parts of myself.

dodgyme

molloyjh wrote: »

As I mentioned above the GRA can only speak for their members and the proposals mentioned here are ones others have looked for elsewhere so its not just the GRA.

I am a member of the AA but I dont expect Conor Fauckner to ask the government or bank give me a break on my mortgage.
To me the analogy isnt too far off here. I can then say - 'oh I am a member of the AA and all conor is doing is representing me?":rolleyes:

jimmmy

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't know anyone who wasn't on a holiday last year, and most of the people I know work in the private sector.

Most of the people you know must be well off then. Not everyone is employed in the public service or so lucky. Many self employed people are not making any money now. Oh, and some saw the recession coming when property stopped selling back in Autumn 06.

Dr Galen

dodgyme wrote: »

I am a member of the AA but I dont expect Conor Fauckner to ask the government or bank give me a break on my mortgage.
To me the analogy isnt too far off here. I can then say - 'oh I am a member of the AA and all conor is doing is representing me?":rolleyes:

can you not see the huge difference between the AA and the GRA......:rolleyes:

whether you agree or disagree with them the GRA are a trade union, so it's their role to represent their members. Simplistic and childish comments like this don't move the discussion on in any way shape or form

Dr Galen

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the people you know must be well off then. Not everyone is employed in the public service or so lucky.

more of the generalisations about public service workers.

i know plenty of people in the private sector who had fabulous holidays last year, same as I know public sector workers who had the same. I also know private sector workers who had no holiday, and likewise public sector people.

circles.......circles.....circles....

Many self employed people are not making any money now.

indeed your right, but thats the fundamental risk of going into business on your own. You gotta take the rough with the smooth.

Do i have sympathy for them, of course. I try to shop locally, try and give people a break, esp the one man bands out there, even when they cost a little more. But the reality of business is that some survive and some fail. If you can't face that reality then you shouldn't have gone into it in the first place.

Oh, and some saw the recession coming when property stopped selling back in Autumn 06

Indeed we did. Some also knew and said that we couldn't build government taxation policy on the basis of what was a windfall tax from property. But no one listened and we were told we were being pessimistic and negative.

Hopefully people will learn a much needed lesson from all of this

ArphaRima

So you feel they should get no extra thanks beyond their salary? Would you be as grateful to someone in McDonalds for serving you a Big Mac as you would be a Garda who prevented someone mugging you or a nurse/doctor that saved your life? I mean after all its equally part of the McDonalds employees job to serve you crap food as a Gardas job to protect you.

The Garda is earning far more than the McDonalds person. Is better trained, and has better career prospects. Not comparable sorry.

And if the Mcdonalds employee went on to buy a house, fair play to him, but I still hope he can afford it later when things go wrong.

Back to the original question, rather than Garda bashing/praising etc. The Gardai deserve to have their financial affairs treated in the same way as any other member of the state. Whether they work for Mconalds or not.

A garda's responsible for his own finances. The people of Ireland do not owe them anything more. They already give them more than fair renumeration.
The GRA are trying to play a sympathy card. By doing so they are damaging their position imho.

molloyjh

dodgyme wrote: »

I am a member of the AA but I dont expect Conor Fauckner to ask the government or bank give me a break on my mortgage.
To me the analogy isnt too far off here. I can then say - 'oh I am a member of the AA and all conor is doing is representing me?":rolleyes:

Eh, right. I can't say much to a comment like that. If you think the AA and the GRA are comparable in any way then a bodily function and the wind spring to mind.

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the people you know must be well off then. Not everyone is employed in the public service or so lucky. Many self employed people are not making any money now. Oh, and some saw the recession coming when property stopped selling back in Autumn 06.

I never said everyone was anything and self-employed people always run the risk of not earning over and above others. To borrow one of your phrases "that's their job".

fluffer wrote: »

The Garda is earning far more than the McDonalds person. Is better trained, and has better career prospects. Not comparable sorry.

And if the Mcdonalds employee went on to buy a house, fair play to him, but I still hope he can afford it later when things go wrong.

Back to the original question, rather than Garda bashing/praising etc. The Gardai deserve to have their financial affairs treated in the same way as any other member of the state. Whether they work for Mconalds or not.

A garda's responsible for his own finances. The people of Ireland do not owe them anything more. They already give them more than fair renumeration.
The GRA are trying to play a sympathy card. By doing so they are damaging their position imho.

Sorry fluffer I'm not comparing McDonalds and the Gardai in those terms, just addressing jimmys point re they get paid for their jobs and thats enough. It's just not that simple. As I stated earlier though I don't exactly agree with what the GRA are proposing (i.e. allowing a move from fixed to variable), but they are not the only ones proposing it. I can't remember now where I first heard it, but I don't think it was from a union. And it annoys me that people are jumping on various groups and attacking them the way they are. It helps noone and contributes nothing. Fair enough disagree with the GRA, but the Gardai do a lot of good work and don't deserve some of the comments seen here.

SWL

molloyjh wrote: »

A lot of people are having issues with their mortgages and the idea of allowing people on fixed rates move to variable rates has been floated a few times, and not just by the GRA, so I don't see what the issue is here either.

As for the "sacred cow" comment, and again maybe I'm biased as I have a former Garda as a father and a nurse for a sister, but given the roles they play in our society I would place those kinds professions in a higher status than most others. Compare a Gardas impact on a persons life to a bank tellers for example. I can't figure out why people have such an issue with the thought of these people being looked after in some ways given the risk many put themselves at on a daily basis. It smacks to me of begrudgery.

Of course then there is the comment regarding Gardai not being injured. My father considers himself very lucky to only have suffered a broken nose in his 30 odd years, but maybe that's because he knew the guy who burned to death in Tallaght trying to prevent someone topping themselves.

The more comments I read on these boards and the more I hear people on the street or TV or face to face the more disgusted I'm becoming with the sheer amount of begrudgery, which is equally mixed often times with some wierd sense of personal entitlement, on display. I've never been a fan of unions and can understand a lot of the criticisms they are coming under, but it always seems to deteriorate into attacks on the members/professions they represent.

Is this the calibre of Guards we have in the country not man enough to honour their debts, or so financially naive that they purchased a property based on overtime earnings, anybody that dumb should get some tough love and let them come up a solution without having the tax payer many of whom are in a similar position pay their way.

fair enough Guards get injured during work, but you would want to be pretty naive to think that is not going to happen given the job they do, now the compensation they receive in lieu of an injury is not enough they want to play the victims putting posters up to so the public how bad they have.

The selection process is onerous to enter the guards, so it not like candidates can't change their mind nobody put a gun to their heads and said you MUST join AGS, they happy volunteered for selection, so stop looking for special privileges.

Hope all the construction professionals out there who could argue that because the building boom didn't continue and are now unemployed and may get injured on a building site can get their mortgages paid. The disadvantages of being an Engineer, bricklayer etc some years you’re up some you're down, and many of them are aware of this.

Having Guards in the family I can say the modern Guards are a bunch of mammies boys, they actively enter into a selection process to become Guards, nobody made them do it.
May be time AGS had a look at their selection process, it appears the wrong calibre of individual is getting it


There are disadvantages in every job so Man the Fcuk up, pay your Bills and your way yourself.

jimmmy

SWL wrote: »

Is this the calibre of Guards we have in the country not man enough to honour their debts, or so financially naive that they purchased a property based on overtime earnings, anybody that dumb should get some tough love and let them come up a solution without having the tax payer many of whom are in a similar position pay their way.

I agree.
As interest rates, oil, etc etc they are just trying to play the sympathy card. It does not wash with those who know their circumstances.

SWL wrote: »

Having Guards in the family I can say the modern Guards are a bunch of mammies boys, they actively enter into a selection process to become Guards, nobody made them do it.
May be time AGS had a look at their selection process, it appears the wrong calibre of individual is getting it
There are disadvantages in every job so Man the Fcuk up, pay your Bills and your way yourself.

I agree + well said.
Its not as if the Irish taxpayer does not pay them a much higher salary than virtually anywhere else in the world , they get sacked regularly or cannot retire early on a massive pension. One experienced cop I know abroad ( who would argue his job is more dangerous, in that he has to carry a gun etc etc, has a far bigger population to police etc ) would love to work a weeks work for the pay that early retired Gardai get here each week for doing nothing.

irish_bob

by far the most dangerous occupation in this country is working on a farm , most gardai never come close to being seriously hurt

Barname

SWL wrote: »

Is this the calibre of Guards we have in the country not man enough to honour their debts, or so financially naive that they purchased a property based on overtime earnings, anybody that dumb should get some tough love and let them come up a solution without having the tax payer many of whom are in a similar position pay their way.

fair enough Guards get injured during work, but you would want to be pretty naive to think that is not going to happen given the job they do, now the compensation they receive in lieu of an injury is not enough they want to play the victims putting posters up to so the public how bad they have.

The selection process is onerous to enter the guards, so it not like candidates can't change their mind nobody put a gun to their heads and said you MUST join AGS, they happy volunteered for selection, so stop looking for special privileges.

Hope all the construction professionals out there who could argue that because the building boom didn't continue and are now unemployed and may get injured on a building site can get their mortgages paid. The disadvantages of being an Engineer, bricklayer etc some years you’re up some you're down, and many of them are aware of this.

Having Guards in the family I can say the modern Guards are a bunch of mammies boys, they actively enter into a selection process to become Guards, nobody made them do it.
May be time AGS had a look at their selection process, it appears the wrong calibre of individual is getting it


There are disadvantages in every job so Man the Fcuk up, pay your Bills and your way yourself.

+1

excellent post.

Man the Fcuk up

Permabear

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Darragh29

dodgyme wrote: »

"They bought these houses not for speculation but to put a roof over their heads and I am shocked by the number of them who are turning to us for help.

This is the bit I've the problem with. I know their own Credit Union was throwing money at Gardai who went to them for a deposit for an investment property and the banks saw them as a safe bet.

Darragh29

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yeah but if you are living in Dublin, the average house price was at least 400K if it wasn't closer to 500K. I know people will say "ah sure that's what you get for wanting to live in Dublin, if you want to live there, expect to pay stupid money for property, you're living it up in the big smoke so good enough for you, etc, etc, etc." I was born in Dublin, all my family live in Dublin, this is where I was brought up and wasn't exactly open to me to migrate down the country somewhere and move my whole life away from family and friends, get a new job, etc. People in Dublin were treated like pompus pr*cks just for expecting to be able to afford a house in the town/city/suburb where they were brought up.

The pressure to get somewhere to live in Dublin was very real. I've argued this on before here, a house is for living in, it's a roof over your head, for shelter and heat. You can either live in a house or you are homeless, it's that simple. The banks and government (by way of policy decisions), encouraged investors to buy to let and drove up the price of property for every person who just wanted a house to live in.

And don't anyone come back here and say I should have rented, why the f*ck should I rent because I just happen to have been born in Dublin???

The mantra was "if you don't buy now, you'll be trapped in a situation where you will not be able to buy this time next year and you'll be trapped in a rental situation for the rest of your life"...

Who want's that??? Anyone who bought a house on the back of this message was not selfish or greedy, they just wanted a house to live in and NOBODY wants to be paying rent and paying into someone elses retirement fund.

Anyone who started hoovering up investment properties, has caused this problem.

oscarBravo

Darragh29 wrote: »

And don't anyone come back here and say I should have rented, why the f*ck should I rent because I just happen to have been born in Dublin???

Due to personal circumstances, I'm currently renting, having owned two houses (sequentially) in the past. Renting is what you do when you can't afford to buy, or are not in a position to do so. It's what I did before I bought my first house, and after I sold it.

The mantra was "if you don't buy now, you'll be trapped in a situation where you will not be able to buy this time next year and you'll be trapped in a rental situation for the rest of your life"...

I'm in my third period of renting. I plan to buy again at some point. Mantras are not always grounded in fact.

Anyone who bought a house on the back of this message was not selfish or greedy, they just wanted a house to live in and NOBODY wants to be paying rent and paying into someone elses retirement fund.

I'd rather own a house than rent one at the moment, but I'm not in a position to do so. When I am, I will.

Besides, renting is the norm for millions of people everywhere. What makes Irish people too good for it?

Darragh29

oscarBravo wrote: »

Due to personal circumstances, I'm currently renting, having owned two houses (sequentially) in the past. Renting is what you do when you can't afford to buy, or are not in a position to do so. It's what I did before I bought my first house, and after I sold it. I'm in my third period of renting. I plan to buy again at some point. Mantras are not always grounded in fact. I'd rather own a house than rent one at the moment, but I'm not in a position to do so. When I am, I will.

Besides, renting is the norm for millions of people everywhere. What makes Irish people too good for it?

It's inherent in human beings to want security of tenure and to own something as distinct from renting it. Call it human progress or the need for self or family betterment or the need for security, whatever it is, this is what human beings usually gravitate towards. I've rented in the past, but I wouldn't want to be renting in 20 years time. I'd like to have a nice house in the surberbs and maybe have it paid off early and live my life in peace with my family. That isn't a big ask, is it??? No it isn't, unless you live in this corrupt kip.

jimmmy

Darragh29 wrote: »

Anyone who started hoovering up investment properties, has caused this problem.

If investors did not buy or own properties there would be no properties for people to rent. The government encouraged people to be landlords through section 23 and section 27 tax laws. I know more than a few people who bought in to the government hype and borrowed money for property to rent out , and who regret it now.

Permabear

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Permabear

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