GRA and mortgages

dodgyme · 23-03-2009 3:21pm #1

From todays indo->

AN alarming number of younger gardai are falling behind in their mortgage payments and are close to the breadline, it was claimed last night.

The GRA has now stepped in to negotiate directly with lending institutions in a bid to alleviate the hardship being felt by its members.

"They bought these houses not for speculation but to put a roof over their heads and I am shocked by the number of them who are turning to us for help.

Correct me if I am wrong but when a garda gets a mortgage they know how much to a large degree they will earn??

ixoy · 23-03-2009 3:41pm

dodgyme wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but when a garda gets a mortgage they know how much to a large degree they will earn??

I imagine we'll hear about the old pension levy (even if it's a relatively small deduction in net pay) being trotted out, with a bit about overtime for good measure...

TomRooney · 23-03-2009 4:00pm

to be quite honest.....SO WHAT!

what about all the plasterers, brickys,carpenters, and labourers with no job and no prospect of a job.

what about the soldiers in the army, who are taking pay cuts on duty money aswell as the pension levy.

the list is endless, the Gardai deserve no special treatment over any other worker in this country. besides the fact the Gardai already enjoy a good salary and job security they have nothing to complain about.

gurramok · 23-03-2009 4:05pm

Mortgages probably given out on the basis of huge overtime payments in the boom.

GRA don't tell you the full story.
http://www.gra.cc/mortgages06.shtml

GRA--Mortgages

Simply an €asier Way to Buy Property

You have two choices when purchasing your property – take the hard option which involves dealing with all the effort, frustration, endless phone calls, missed appointments, time off work and high costs traditionally associated with purchasing a home OR you can take the easy option through Penpro.

We search the market for the best mortgage for you, advise you throughout the process and manage the process on your behalf each step of the way from start to finish. We negotiate with the Lender, deal with the Valuers and Solicitors and can give you lots of tips along the way. In fact, we do all the work so you don’t have to.

Our complete home buying service is available to members and their families who are first-time buyers, trader uppers, investors or refinancing their existing mortgage

Another case of bailing out bad decisions by mortgage holders.

Victor_M · 23-03-2009 4:09pm

It's fairly comical all right, the GRA are putting on the best 'poor us' show of all the public service workers. At least they still have a job to pay the mortgage with. I can't believe they are even being entertained coming out with that sort of clap trap!

If any guard (or anyone for that matter) was within 6-9% of not being able to pay their mortgage they were irresponsible borrowing so much in the first place.

dodgyme · 23-03-2009 4:21pm

well apparently

"He said it was a great source of anger to the GRA that the Government has not called on lending institutions to "give people a break, either by allowing them a way out of fixed rate payments or by writing off 20pc of the mortgages"."

:rolleyes:

now I dont mind a policy of giving people breaks - but not because they are gardai?

Also I know personally atleast 5 gardai and I have never seen them ever with any injuries from the line of duty, a bit different to the ads recently displayed by the GRA across dublin?

Sleipnir · 23-03-2009 4:23pm

I'm going to ring my bank now and ask them to write off 20% of my mortgage. I could do with a 'break'.

sdanseo · 23-03-2009 4:26pm

I wouldn't class the Garda salary as good tbh; starts at €25k and takes 17 years to get to €47k. Not much better than entry-level CO in the civil service but with (I would have thought) less prospect for promotion.

A lot of Gardaí take the crappy salary because they love the job - I'd do the same tbh. Same goes for the army and a few other things like that.

That said, I wouldn't like to have to foot the bill if other PS workers didn't get a similar deal.

Permabear · 23-03-2009 4:27pm

This post has been deleted.

is_that_so · 23-03-2009 4:29pm

So what indeed. George Lee mentioned the other "Gardai" in his programme last night, with their multiple houses. Why don't the GRA ask them to help out with poor strapped Gardai? That aside this is yet another piece of sloppy tabloid journalism from our friends at the Indo.

snubbleste · 23-03-2009 4:54pm

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I wouldn't class the Garda salary as good tbh; starts at €25k and takes 17 years to get to €47k. Not much better than entry-level CO in the civil service but with (I would have thought) less prospect for promotion.

According to the CSO, the average weekly earnings for a Garda is €1,266 (€1,054 excl overtime) in March 2008. Yes, I know what the GRA site says..

Mr.Micro · 23-03-2009 5:00pm

I have never known a poor Garda in all my life, even when things were dire. No disrespect, but they will have to bear it like the rest of us and be glad that they have a permanent job. Too much spending money on other things? Interest rates at near zero.... no excuses. What are they going to do when the recovery starts and the rates rise very quickly?

thebman · 23-03-2009 5:28pm

20%! :eek: Where the hell does that figure come from?

Their salaries can't possibly have dropped by 20% so they are asking for more than they could get in the hope to get something.

Where exactly is this money going to come from? Just because you work in the police, does not mean you are entitled to keep your current standard of living.

Why the hell did they buy in the first place if they couldn't afford it. They knew they couldn't depend on overtime same as sales people should know they can't depend on commission.

TomRooney · 23-03-2009 10:19pm

my personel belief is this a classic example of the corruption that is endemic in this state.

such as the government being in bed with the elite classes and bankers.

which resulted in such actions as Gardai never being refused a mortage or at least it would be very rare.

i Know young Gardai who have 2 and 3 mortages all because the bank wouldnt refuse a Garda a mortage or so they have told me.

irish_bob · 23-03-2009 10:46pm

the list of sacred cows in this country grows

nurses
garda
????

silverharp · 23-03-2009 10:48pm

christ , my 4 year old is more stoic then these half wits. has anyone pointed out to them that on average their mortage rates will have being dropping since last year.

Mr.Micro · 23-03-2009 11:32pm

silverharp wrote: »

christ , my 4 year old is more stoic then these half wits. has anyone pointed out to them that on average their mortage rates will have being dropping since last year.

I did in post 12.:D

Godge · 24-03-2009 12:30am

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I wouldn't class the Garda salary as good tbh; starts at €25k and takes 17 years to get to €47k. Not much better than entry-level CO in the civil service but with (I would have thought) less prospect for promotion.

A lot of Gardaí take the crappy salary because they love the job - I'd do the same tbh. Same goes for the army and a few other things like that.

That said, I wouldn't like to have to foot the bill if other PS workers didn't get a similar deal.

I am fed up doing this. Look at this website.

http://www.gra.ie

Go to salary scales and you get the figures you mention. But then look at allowances and you will soon see how an average Garda makes it up to an average salary of 50k. Gardai are not badly paid, that is a myth (alongside the myth that teachers and nurses are badly paid). There is some mad belief that out there are thousands of administrative civil servants paid salaries of 90k upwards who should be targeted. In reality they make up less than 1% of the total. It is ordinary front-line staff like the three I mention who are going to have to bear the brunt of it if savings are to be made on public service pay.

Now, there are a few coining it - university professors with four day weeks and 15 weeks holidays earning in excess of 150k, judges who sit for about four months and who don't pay the pension levy, county councillors who get 50k for a part-time job. These should all suffer but there are not enough of them to make a difference to the big numbers.

K-9 · 24-03-2009 1:49am

dodgyme wrote: »

From todays indo->

AN alarming number of younger gardai are falling behind in their mortgage payments and are close to the breadline, it was claimed last night.

The GRA has now stepped in to negotiate directly with lending institutions in a bid to alleviate the hardship being felt by its members.

"They bought these houses not for speculation but to put a roof over their heads and I am shocked by the number of them who are turning to us for help.

Correct me if I am wrong but when a garda gets a mortgage they know how much to a large degree they will earn??

Guards are different to the rest of us.

Unfortunately my Dad would wonder why he was treated the same as everybody else in the 80/early 90's.

Useless GRA.

TheNog · 24-03-2009 3:22am

TomRooney wrote: »

to be quite honest.....SO WHAT!

what about all the plasterers, brickys,carpenters, and labourers with no job and no prospect of a job.

what about the soldiers in the army, who are taking pay cuts on duty money aswell as the pension levy.

the list is endless, the Gardai deserve no special treatment over any other worker in this country. besides the fact the Gardai already enjoy a good salary and job security they have nothing to complain about.

Actually there is one reason and it is one reason you will not find in any other job contract in the public or private sector. There is a clause in all Garda contracts that if we default on a loan, any loan be it credit union or mortgage, means instant dismissal from the force.
It is an old regulation that I believe the GRA is working on to have annulled. If its not successful not only will a family lose the roof over its head but the garda also loses his job and joins the dole queue.
TBH I cant see how this rule cannot be assigned to the bin.

dodgyme wrote: »

Also I know personally atleast 5 gardai and I have never seen them ever with any injuries from the line of duty, a bit different to the ads recently displayed by the GRA across dublin?

Just because you know 5 out of 14,000 doesnt really mean it never happens. Anyway an assault doesnt always cause injury either.

snubbleste wrote: »

According to the CSO, the average weekly earnings for a Garda is €1,266 (€1,054 excl overtime) in March 2008. Yes, I know what the GRA site says..

Got to love these statistics. The above one is an average over all the Force from regular uniformed right up to Commissioner. The commissioner himself think he earns about 190k. The problem is not with the high earners but the lower earners in AGS.

ArphaRima · 24-03-2009 3:32am

Just had a look at their salary scales. I certainly dont think that they are under-paid.
If gardai are falling behind on their mortgages, it's their fault. All investment carries risk.
Their salary remains unchanged. The pension levy is really feck-all, and nobody should ever buy anything on credit using their overtime/bonuses as a guide.

thebman · 24-03-2009 5:13am

TheNog wrote: »

Actually there is one reason and it is one reason you will not find in any other job contract in the public or private sector. There is a clause in all Garda contracts that if we default on a loan, any loan be it credit union or mortgage, means instant dismissal from the force.
It is an old regulation that I believe the GRA is working on to have annulled. If its not successful not only will a family lose the roof over its head but the garda also loses his job and joins the dole queue.
TBH I cant see how this rule cannot be assigned to the bin.

TBH I can't believe a Garda would be that reckless with his livelihood that he'd take a mortgage he couldn't afford if he didn't get overtime/bonuses/other or if he's basic salary reduced by 10%.

Bit of a massive risk to take do you no think? I'm not saying I wouldn't revoke the clause (although I'd like to know why it ever existed) but it was reckless to get involved to that extent based on overtime since it was most likely not going to last the length of time of the mortgage repayments.

gurramok · 24-03-2009 9:41am

TheNog wrote: »

Actually there is one reason and it is one reason you will not find in any other job contract in the public or private sector. There is a clause in all Garda contracts that if we default on a loan, any loan be it credit union or mortgage, means instant dismissal from the force.
It is an old regulation that I believe the GRA is working on to have annulled. If its not successful not only will a family lose the roof over its head but the garda also loses his job and joins the dole queue.
TBH I cant see how this rule cannot be assigned to the bin.

Uh oh, mass dismiissal of defaulters as the GRA themselves say half the gardai are up to their eyes in mortgage payments. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/young-gardai--struggling-to--pay-mortgages-1682427.html

gra wrote:

"They bought into the myth that was perpetuated and fed by government and bought at the peak of the boom,'' he said.

"This Government refused to pull the brakes on the greed of property developers and they are now left with huge mortgages.'

So are tens of thousands more in the same boat GRA.

TheNog, do you have an issue to what the GRA have done pimping huge mortgages to their members in the bubble?

molloyjh · 24-03-2009 2:52pm

Ok now maybe people need to explain a few things to me here that I'm just not getting. Do you all have a problem with the GRA representing their members in some way or that they are not representing anyone else? The GRA will speak for the Gardai, but that doesn't mean they are looking for special treatment for the Gardai alone, just that they can't speak for anyone else.

A lot of people are having issues with their mortgages and the idea of allowing people on fixed rates move to variable rates has been floated a few times, and not just by the GRA, so I don't see what the issue is here either.

As for the "sacred cow" comment, and again maybe I'm biased as I have a former Garda as a father and a nurse for a sister, but given the roles they play in our society I would place those kinds professions in a higher status than most others. Compare a Gardas impact on a persons life to a bank tellers for example. I can't figure out why people have such an issue with the thought of these people being looked after in some ways given the risk many put themselves at on a daily basis. It smacks to me of begrudgery.

Of course then there is the comment regarding Gardai not being injured. My father considers himself very lucky to only have suffered a broken nose in his 30 odd years, but maybe that's because he knew the guy who burned to death in Tallaght trying to prevent someone topping themselves.

The more comments I read on these boards and the more I hear people on the street or TV or face to face the more disgusted I'm becoming with the sheer amount of begrudgery, which is equally mixed often times with some wierd sense of personal entitlement, on display. I've never been a fan of unions and can understand a lot of the criticisms they are coming under, but it always seems to deteriorate into attacks on the members/professions they represent.

is_that_so · 24-03-2009 3:17pm

I think you'll find you've answered some of your questions in that last paragraph. We are all blinkered to others' problems to a greater or lesser degree and we all have our own sense of entitlement. As far as I am concerned Gardai, nurses or whoever were in their right mind when getting mortgages and have to pay them back in their entirety. TBH I can't see how criticising the GRA for trying to get 20% off mortgages is begrudgery. More like a stroke in my view. If you signed for it, you pay it back which goes for every last one of us who took out a mortgage. As regards the GRA, I can't say I'd be too impressed if they were representing me.

ArphaRima · 24-03-2009 3:21pm

Do the GRA and their members deserve special entitlement over other members of society? No.

jimmmy · 24-03-2009 3:25pm

fluffer wrote: »

Just had a look at their salary scales. I certainly dont think that they are under-paid.
If gardai are falling behind on their mortgages, it's their fault.

Well said. Our Gardai are actually overpaid compared to their counterparts abroad, and those in private industry at home. Plus interest rates have fallen big time. The GRA trying to make soup of the poor underpaid Gardai is something to be noted by the ordinary taxpayer and voter. I know some Gardai who went on fancy holidays recently , without the cares or worries that the rest of us have, struggling to survive and pay their wages . Shame on the GRA.

thebman · 24-03-2009 3:29pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Ok now maybe people need to explain a few things to me here that I'm just not getting. Do you all have a problem with the GRA representing their members in some way or that they are not representing anyone else? The GRA will speak for the Gardai, but that doesn't mean they are looking for special treatment for the Gardai alone, just that they can't speak for anyone else.

A lot of people are having issues with their mortgages and the idea of allowing people on fixed rates move to variable rates has been floated a few times, and not just by the GRA, so I don't see what the issue is here either.

Nobody deserves help with their mortgage. You signed for it, you pay for it that is how the system works. The taxpayers that didn't fook up their lives shouldn't pay for the homes of the ones that did.

Moving to Variable rate is up to the banks and government. Not saying I'm against it, I don't care either way.

As for the "sacred cow" comment, and again maybe I'm biased as I have a former Garda as a father and a nurse for a sister, but given the roles they play in our society I would place those kinds professions in a higher status than most others. Compare a Gardas impact on a persons life to a bank tellers for example. I can't figure out why people have such an issue with the thought of these people being looked after in some ways given the risk many put themselves at on a daily basis. It smacks to me of begrudgery.

Well though sh** they aren't at a higher status. I can't understand why they (or you) consider themselves better than everyone else when they are doing a job they offered to do, same as everyone else (well not the people who were unfortunate enough to lose theirs). Your suggestion is insulting at best. Nobody forced anyone to join the police force and there are plenty of other people willing to join.

Its a job, they aren't doing it for free!

molloyjh · 24-03-2009 3:39pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Well said. Our Gardai are actually overpaid compared to their counterparts abroad, and those in private industry at home. Plus interest rates have fallen big time. The GRA trying to make soup of the poor underpaid Gardai is something to be noted by the ordinary taxpayer and voter. I know some Gardai who went on fancy holidays recently , without the cares or worries that the rest of us have, struggling to survive and pay their wages . Shame on the GRA.

I know people from all walks of life that went on "fancy holidays" recently too. So what!? The Gardai get a good chunk of their money from overtime, and most of them work hard enough for it doing a job that you and I probably wouldn't have the balls to do. A Garda's basic isn't all that great at all and while the GRA (like other unions) are playing that up more than they should be that's no reason for the rest of us to get snotty with the Gardai in general.

And heaven forbid you pay their wages when they protect you and yours. Do you take that attitude with bankers or shop assistants given that your custom pays their wages?

molloyjh · 24-03-2009 3:46pm

thebman wrote: »

Nobody deserves help with their mortgage. You signed for it, you pay for it that is how the system works. The taxpayers that didn't fook up their lives shouldn't pay for the homes of the ones that did.

Moving to Variable rate is up to the banks and government. Not saying I'm against it, I don't care either way.

For the record I wasn't expressing a personal opinion really. I'm not too far from yours truth be told. I have a hard time straying from the "you made your bed" position.

thebman wrote: »

Well though sh** they aren't at a higher status. I can't understand why they (or you) consider themselves better than everyone else when they are doing a job they offered to do, same as everyone else (well not the people who were unfortunate enough to lose theirs). Your suggestion is insulting at best. Nobody forced anyone to join the police force and there are plenty of other people willing to join.

Its a job, they aren't doing it for free!

I'm not saying they are "better" per se, but there are higher paid and easier jobs out there. Yet these people make the choice to put themselves in harms way and we get the benefit. Surely we should appreciate that choice more than that of someone who decides to sit at a PC in an office all day contributing to some companies bottom line and nothing more (which is what I've been doing!).

jimmmy · 24-03-2009 3:53pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I know people from all walks of life that went on "fancy holidays" recently too.

"all" walks of life ? I know many a person ( who are not in the public sector) who has not had a holiday in the past 2 years and may never again.

molloyjh wrote: »

The Gardai get a good chunk of their money from overtime,

Thats part of the scandal, the huge overtime rates.

molloyjh wrote: »

and most of them work hard enough for it doing a job that you and I probably wouldn't have the balls to do.

They work - thats their job. There are harder jobs in the world. I have sometimes seen them do their shopping / pricing around for personal stuff while in uniform / being paid. As regards "the balls to do", speak for yourself, do not speak for others.

molloyjh wrote: »

A Garda's basic isn't all that great at all

lol lol Its among the best in the world.

molloyjh wrote: »

and while the GRA (like other unions) are playing that up more than they should be that's no reason for the rest of us to get snotty with the Gardai in general.

Nobody is snotty with the Gardai, just the audacity of the GRA if they are putting on the poor mouth in this time of deflation / world economic crises.

molloyjh wrote: »

And heaven forbid you pay their wages when they protect you and yours.

Thats their job, to protect people.

molloyjh wrote: »

Do you take that attitude with bankers or shop assistants given that your custom pays their wages?

Do you know how much Guards get when they take early retirement in guaranteed pay ?

thebman · 24-03-2009 4:15pm

I'm not saying they are "better" per se, but there are higher paid and easier jobs out there. Yet these people make the choice to put themselves in harms way and we get the benefit. Surely we should appreciate that choice more than that of someone who decides to sit at a PC in an office all day contributing to some companies bottom line and nothing more (which is what I've been doing!).

In most cases they aren't in harms way and I imagine they don't put themselves in harms way if they can away with it. They'd call in back up if possible and leave the gang of criminals alone rather than get involved alone and get the crap kicked out of them and rightly so.

They are paid to protect but they aren't paid to put themselves in danger against the odds in most circumstances and they don't do this mostly. What makes up the majority of police calls? I doubt it is a violent crime being committed and get there in 30 seconds so you can catch the guy in the act and risk getting shot type scenario's. That is too much Hollywood TV I think.

dodgyme · 24-03-2009 4:30pm

thebman wrote: »

They are paid to protect but they aren't paid to put themselves in danger against the odds

perhaps the gra can look at this instead of preferential ....sorry special treatment in the area of mortgages for their members?

Permabear · 24-03-2009 4:32pm

This post has been deleted.

djk1000 · 24-03-2009 4:46pm

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that many gardai have mortgages with a partner, that partner may be in private employment/lost a job and is causing the arrears.

Don't agree that the gardai should get any special favours though, anyone that is suffering right now should be given a break, particularly where the banks are involved, they played their part in causing all this sillyness, they should be playing more of a part in helping the people they screwed.

dodgyme · 24-03-2009 5:05pm

djk1000 wrote: »

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that many gardai have mortgages with a partner, that partner may be in private employment/lost a job and is causing the arrears..

what kinda of argument is that. What about 2 private sector workers. ?

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

djk1000 · 24-03-2009 5:32pm

dodgyme wrote: »

what kinda of argument is that. What about 2 private sector workers. ?

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

Not an argument per se, the jist of several posts was that Garda jobs and salaries are secure, interest rates are down, so what's the problem? I'm just pointing out that the other half of the capacity to pay the mortgage might be under strain.

As for 2 private sector workers under strain, they should be helped out as much as a public sector, or a public/private combo couple would be, no more no less, we're all citizens and none are more equal than others.

jonsnow · 24-03-2009 5:40pm

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

and nurses dont forget the nurses

thebman · 24-03-2009 5:40pm

djk1000 wrote: »

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that many gardai have mortgages with a partner, that partner may be in private employment/lost a job and is causing the arrears.

Don't agree that the gardai should get any special favours though, anyone that is suffering right now should be given a break, particularly where the banks are involved, they played their part in causing all this sillyness, they should be playing more of a part in helping the people they screwed.

How would you suggest everyone be given a break when we are running a 20 billion deficit on current expenditure?

Anyway people that made bad investments don't deserve to be bailed out and that realistically included the banks. Them given out mortgages was an asset on their books. It was an investment really on the basis that the person would be able to pay it back. A risk they took that hasn't paid off.

They were bailed out on the basis that they were too big to fail and that wasn't correct but maybe it needed to be done. I don't have all the figures for that. I don't see how everyone else can be expected to be bailed out though. People with mortgages aren't too big to fail. With the numbers involved, collectively maybe they are, again I don't know the figures. If it is the case then I guess we will but there should be heavy burdens placed on these people going forward for making their poor investment so they don't just do it again next time there is an upturn otherwise there is no lesson learned.

They should have to pay off these debts regardless and the banks should have to compensate the government for any money put into them by the government in the long run with interest (isn't there a clause like this in their recapitialisation?). there damn well should be if there isn't.

jonsnow · 24-03-2009 5:41pm

dodgyme wrote: »

what kinda of argument is that. What about 2 private sector workers. ?

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

and nurses dont forget the nurses

dodgyme · 24-03-2009 5:47pm

jonsnow wrote: »

Anyhow everyone knows gardai only marry teachers and other gardai. I think the GRA has to pick the ring out for the happy couple - part of the rules.

and nurses dont forget the nurses

sorry forgot!- my sister is a nurse and her car broke down near kinnegad (I think she had the uniform on). Garda stops to help and low and behold they recognised each other from coppers the previous wednesday night!

Atleast I was able to turn back to dublin as I was onroute to help her before she rang me next from kilcock 20 mins later with car on the side of the road again!

RustySpoon · 24-03-2009 5:57pm

jimmmy wrote: »

I have sometimes seen them do their shopping / pricing around for personal stuff while in uniform / being paid.

I have also seen Chefs, prison officers and schoolkids in uniform shopping & pricing stuff. Gardai get breaks, they also eat while in uniform as bringing a change of clothes is a bit much. Everyone just thinks that they should be "on Duty" every second of every day.

molloyjh · 24-03-2009 6:02pm

jimmmy wrote: »

"all" walks of life ? I know many a person ( who are not in the public sector) who has not had a holiday in the past 2 years and may never again.

That's a bit of a shocker given that the recession isn't even 2 years old yet! I don't know anyone who wasn't on a holiday last year, and most of the people I know work in the private sector.

jimmmy wrote: »

Thats part of the scandal, the huge overtime rates.

Is it the rates or the amount they do? The Gardai are so fundamentally under-resourced that to maintain even a poor service requires overtime to be done.

jimmmy wrote: »

"They work - thats their job. There are harder jobs in the world. I have sometimes seen them do their shopping / pricing around for personal stuff while in uniform / being paid. As regards "the balls to do", speak for yourself, do not speak for others.

I said "probably". And who here hasn't booked a flight online while in work or something like that? We all do it, why shouldn't they?

jimmmy wrote: »

"lol lol Its among the best in the world.

And the cost of living in Ireland is among the highest in the world.

jimmmy wrote: »

"Nobody is snotty with the Gardai, just the audacity of the GRA if they are putting on the poor mouth in this time of deflation / world economic crises.

We've had people here talking about how they aren't getting injured the way they are claiming, you yourself were complaining about Gardai doing personal stuff on work time.

jimmmy wrote: »

Thats their job, to protect people.

So you feel they should get no extra thanks beyond their salary? Would you be as grateful to someone in McDonalds for serving you a Big Mac as you would be a Garda who prevented someone mugging you or a nurse/doctor that saved your life? I mean after all its equally part of the McDonalds employees job to serve you crap food as a Gardas job to protect you.

thebman wrote: »

In most cases they aren't in harms way and I imagine they don't put themselves in harms way if they can away with it. They'd call in back up if possible and leave the gang of criminals alone rather than get involved alone and get the crap kicked out of them and rightly so.

They are paid to protect but they aren't paid to put themselves in danger against the odds in most circumstances and they don't do this mostly. What makes up the majority of police calls? I doubt it is a violent crime being committed and get there in 30 seconds so you can catch the guy in the act and risk getting shot type scenario's. That is too much Hollywood TV I think.

I never said anything about against the odds. The last raid my father was a part of was one on a travellers camp. They went in in force, but that just limits the risk, it doesn't remove it altogether. My experiences of the Gardai are based on mainly my fathers own experiences over the last 30 years so there's no Hollywood BS here thanks.

dodgyme wrote: »

perhaps the gra can look at this instead of preferential ....sorry special treatment in the area of mortgages for their members?

As I mentioned above the GRA can only speak for their members and the proposals mentioned here are ones others have looked for elsewhere so its not just the GRA.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's getting into a whole other debate re the overall remuneration package, which I do have issues with parts of myself.

dodgyme · 24-03-2009 6:16pm

molloyjh wrote: »

As I mentioned above the GRA can only speak for their members and the proposals mentioned here are ones others have looked for elsewhere so its not just the GRA.

I am a member of the AA but I dont expect Conor Fauckner to ask the government or bank give me a break on my mortgage.
To me the analogy isnt too far off here. I can then say - 'oh I am a member of the AA and all conor is doing is representing me?":rolleyes:

jimmmy · 24-03-2009 7:00pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't know anyone who wasn't on a holiday last year, and most of the people I know work in the private sector.

Most of the people you know must be well off then. Not everyone is employed in the public service or so lucky. Many self employed people are not making any money now. Oh, and some saw the recession coming when property stopped selling back in Autumn 06.

Dr Galen · 24-03-2009 7:31pm

dodgyme wrote: »

I am a member of the AA but I dont expect Conor Fauckner to ask the government or bank give me a break on my mortgage.
To me the analogy isnt too far off here. I can then say - 'oh I am a member of the AA and all conor is doing is representing me?":rolleyes:

can you not see the huge difference between the AA and the GRA......:rolleyes:

whether you agree or disagree with them the GRA are a trade union, so it's their role to represent their members. Simplistic and childish comments like this don't move the discussion on in any way shape or form

Dr Galen · 24-03-2009 7:38pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the people you know must be well off then. Not everyone is employed in the public service or so lucky.

more of the generalisations about public service workers.

i know plenty of people in the private sector who had fabulous holidays last year, same as I know public sector workers who had the same. I also know private sector workers who had no holiday, and likewise public sector people.

circles.......circles.....circles....

Many self employed people are not making any money now.

indeed your right, but thats the fundamental risk of going into business on your own. You gotta take the rough with the smooth.

Do i have sympathy for them, of course. I try to shop locally, try and give people a break, esp the one man bands out there, even when they cost a little more. But the reality of business is that some survive and some fail. If you can't face that reality then you shouldn't have gone into it in the first place.

Oh, and some saw the recession coming when property stopped selling back in Autumn 06

Indeed we did. Some also knew and said that we couldn't build government taxation policy on the basis of what was a windfall tax from property. But no one listened and we were told we were being pessimistic and negative.

Hopefully people will learn a much needed lesson from all of this

ArphaRima · 24-03-2009 7:40pm

So you feel they should get no extra thanks beyond their salary? Would you be as grateful to someone in McDonalds for serving you a Big Mac as you would be a Garda who prevented someone mugging you or a nurse/doctor that saved your life? I mean after all its equally part of the McDonalds employees job to serve you crap food as a Gardas job to protect you.

The Garda is earning far more than the McDonalds person. Is better trained, and has better career prospects. Not comparable sorry.

And if the Mcdonalds employee went on to buy a house, fair play to him, but I still hope he can afford it later when things go wrong.

Back to the original question, rather than Garda bashing/praising etc. The Gardai deserve to have their financial affairs treated in the same way as any other member of the state. Whether they work for Mconalds or not.

A garda's responsible for his own finances. The people of Ireland do not owe them anything more. They already give them more than fair renumeration.
The GRA are trying to play a sympathy card. By doing so they are damaging their position imho.

molloyjh · 24-03-2009 8:45pm

dodgyme wrote: »

I am a member of the AA but I dont expect Conor Fauckner to ask the government or bank give me a break on my mortgage.
To me the analogy isnt too far off here. I can then say - 'oh I am a member of the AA and all conor is doing is representing me?":rolleyes:

Eh, right. I can't say much to a comment like that. If you think the AA and the GRA are comparable in any way then a bodily function and the wind spring to mind.

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the people you know must be well off then. Not everyone is employed in the public service or so lucky. Many self employed people are not making any money now. Oh, and some saw the recession coming when property stopped selling back in Autumn 06.

I never said everyone was anything and self-employed people always run the risk of not earning over and above others. To borrow one of your phrases "that's their job".

fluffer wrote: »

The Garda is earning far more than the McDonalds person. Is better trained, and has better career prospects. Not comparable sorry.

And if the Mcdonalds employee went on to buy a house, fair play to him, but I still hope he can afford it later when things go wrong.

Back to the original question, rather than Garda bashing/praising etc. The Gardai deserve to have their financial affairs treated in the same way as any other member of the state. Whether they work for Mconalds or not.

A garda's responsible for his own finances. The people of Ireland do not owe them anything more. They already give them more than fair renumeration.
The GRA are trying to play a sympathy card. By doing so they are damaging their position imho.

Sorry fluffer I'm not comparing McDonalds and the Gardai in those terms, just addressing jimmys point re they get paid for their jobs and thats enough. It's just not that simple. As I stated earlier though I don't exactly agree with what the GRA are proposing (i.e. allowing a move from fixed to variable), but they are not the only ones proposing it. I can't remember now where I first heard it, but I don't think it was from a union. And it annoys me that people are jumping on various groups and attacking them the way they are. It helps noone and contributes nothing. Fair enough disagree with the GRA, but the Gardai do a lot of good work and don't deserve some of the comments seen here.

SWL · 25-03-2009 10:21am

molloyjh wrote: »

A lot of people are having issues with their mortgages and the idea of allowing people on fixed rates move to variable rates has been floated a few times, and not just by the GRA, so I don't see what the issue is here either.

As for the "sacred cow" comment, and again maybe I'm biased as I have a former Garda as a father and a nurse for a sister, but given the roles they play in our society I would place those kinds professions in a higher status than most others. Compare a Gardas impact on a persons life to a bank tellers for example. I can't figure out why people have such an issue with the thought of these people being looked after in some ways given the risk many put themselves at on a daily basis. It smacks to me of begrudgery.

Of course then there is the comment regarding Gardai not being injured. My father considers himself very lucky to only have suffered a broken nose in his 30 odd years, but maybe that's because he knew the guy who burned to death in Tallaght trying to prevent someone topping themselves.

The more comments I read on these boards and the more I hear people on the street or TV or face to face the more disgusted I'm becoming with the sheer amount of begrudgery, which is equally mixed often times with some wierd sense of personal entitlement, on display. I've never been a fan of unions and can understand a lot of the criticisms they are coming under, but it always seems to deteriorate into attacks on the members/professions they represent.

Is this the calibre of Guards we have in the country not man enough to honour their debts, or so financially naive that they purchased a property based on overtime earnings, anybody that dumb should get some tough love and let them come up a solution without having the tax payer many of whom are in a similar position pay their way.

fair enough Guards get injured during work, but you would want to be pretty naive to think that is not going to happen given the job they do, now the compensation they receive in lieu of an injury is not enough they want to play the victims putting posters up to so the public how bad they have.

The selection process is onerous to enter the guards, so it not like candidates can't change their mind nobody put a gun to their heads and said you MUST join AGS, they happy volunteered for selection, so stop looking for special privileges.

Hope all the construction professionals out there who could argue that because the building boom didn't continue and are now unemployed and may get injured on a building site can get their mortgages paid. The disadvantages of being an Engineer, bricklayer etc some years you’re up some you're down, and many of them are aware of this.

Having Guards in the family I can say the modern Guards are a bunch of mammies boys, they actively enter into a selection process to become Guards, nobody made them do it.
May be time AGS had a look at their selection process, it appears the wrong calibre of individual is getting it

There are disadvantages in every job so Man the Fcuk up, pay your Bills and your way yourself.

jimmmy · 25-03-2009 11:44am

SWL wrote: »

Is this the calibre of Guards we have in the country not man enough to honour their debts, or so financially naive that they purchased a property based on overtime earnings, anybody that dumb should get some tough love and let them come up a solution without having the tax payer many of whom are in a similar position pay their way.

I agree.
As interest rates, oil, etc etc they are just trying to play the sympathy card. It does not wash with those who know their circumstances.

SWL wrote: »

Having Guards in the family I can say the modern Guards are a bunch of mammies boys, they actively enter into a selection process to become Guards, nobody made them do it.
May be time AGS had a look at their selection process, it appears the wrong calibre of individual is getting it
There are disadvantages in every job so Man the Fcuk up, pay your Bills and your way yourself.

I agree + well said.
Its not as if the Irish taxpayer does not pay them a much higher salary than virtually anywhere else in the world , they get sacked regularly or cannot retire early on a massive pension. One experienced cop I know abroad ( who would argue his job is more dangerous, in that he has to carry a gun etc etc, has a far bigger population to police etc ) would love to work a weeks work for the pay that early retired Gardai get here each week for doing nothing.

GRA and mortgages

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