DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

BERk8 · 27-03-2008 1:43am

sydthebeat wrote: »

No, its the same thing

it will be requested as part of the conveyancing procedure. There was an article about this in a recent law society journal.

ha, i read that article, it wasn't even written by a government official or SEI representative, it was by another fecking BER assessor!

sydthebeat · 27-03-2008 4:48pm

BERk8 wrote: »

The Government has copped out again on this one, just like the NCT! All they need to do is incorporate it into the planning process et voila, SI 666 EPBD is a useful piece of legislation.

they cannot incorporate it into the planning process. Planning legislation doesnt allow for the policing of construction methods and building regulations, building control section DOES!!!

Therefore the only way to truely police this is to have 100% building control inspections, which will never happen.

That is why the law society are taking it upon themselves (they are not required to legislatively!) to request BER certification as part of either the conveyancing process or the standard certification process.

I dont know what the point of your last post is. What point are you trying to make?

BERk8 · 27-03-2008 6:40pm

My point is that the Government & SEI are not seeing this one through, purely paying lip service to EU directive.

sydthebeat · 28-03-2008 5:45pm

just did a provisional BER on a dwelling.
Inputed basic values such as 2.0 windows, no draughstripping, no low energy bulbs, minimum reg elemental u values, 85% oil burner and rad system, passive vents, masonry......

The dwelling still achieved a B3 rating.

This proves to me that a well designed building making most of passive solar gains is probably THE most important factor in achieving a good rating. All others are secondary to this.

this particular dwelling has 40% glazing on southern walls and has a 12 sq m glazed section in the south roof plane.

It wont take much to get this up to at least an A2, and thankfully the clients are very interested in achieving this.

Chimpster · 28-03-2008 5:54pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

just did a provisional BER on a dwelling.
Inputed basic values such as 2.0 windows, no draughstripping, no low energy bulbs, minimum reg elemental u values, 85% oil burner and rad system, passive vents, masonry......

The dwelling still achieved a B3 rating.

This proves to me that a well designed building making most of passive solar gains is probably THE most important factor in achieving a good rating. All others are secondary to this.

this particular dwelling has 40% glazing on southern walls and has a 12 sq m glazed section in the south roof plane.

It wont take much to get this up to at least an A2, and thankfully the clients are very interested in achieving this.

A2 is a fair push Syd, Is it a masonary built house? I assume they are open to using MHRV and spending plenty on Insulation, high effeciency heating etc?

Villain · 28-03-2008 8:34pm

Quick question re BER, I have just started a self build, footings starting tomorrow, when should I engage a BER tester? Simply when I finish or should I get a provisional based on my plans now and get some advice?

PS.
My current plan is standard 100mm block cavity pumped with best bead available.
Dry line all external walls internally with 50mm warm board
Timber sub floor with insulation between joists, best available
Triple Glazed AluClad windows with U Value of .9 or 1.28 depending on which I go with
House will be as air tight as possible and a HRV system will be installed
Condensing Oil Burner will be the source of the heating

Anyone want to guess what rating I might get?

sinnerboy · 28-03-2008 9:48pm

best to get a prelim rating now . a BER assessment has to include suggested improvements . why wait untill it may too late to take these on board ?

sydthebeat · 28-03-2008 11:04pm

Chimpster wrote: »

A2 is a fair push Syd, Is it a masonary built house? I assume they are open to using MHRV and spending plenty on Insulation, high effeciency heating etc?

It is a masonry build.

The prelim BER will include HRV inputs, increased elemental u values throughout, wood burner, solar collectors, 100% low energy CFL, 100% draughstripping, better windows and doors etc, so i dont expect reaching an A2 to be too difficult.

Ill let you know how the prelim gets on....

smooth operater · 29-03-2008 11:37am

sydthebeat wrote: »

It is a masonry build.

The prelim BER will include HRV inputs, increased elemental u values throughout, wood burner, solar collectors, 100% low energy CFL, 100% draughstripping, better windows and doors etc, so i dont expect reaching an A2 to be too difficult.

Ill let you know how the prelim gets on....

Sounds like you'll defo hit the A3, from then on it get quite harder to get the A2 etc

showmedmoney · 29-03-2008 6:55pm

Hi Just though i would share with you,

Rang the SEI the other day to find out how many BER certs were issued since jan 07'

he siad that there has been a grand total of 365 certs issued to date (including prelims).

looks like nobody is making a killing out of this yet any way?

Villain · 29-03-2008 7:17pm

Are you serious only 365 certs in 15 months, thats only about 6 a week, wouldn't want to do the course thinking you will make money from it!!

smooth operater · 30-03-2008 4:28am

nope. its definetly not standalone....

sydthebeat · 03-04-2008 4:15pm

smooth operater wrote: »

Sounds like you'll defo hit the A3, from then on it get quite harder to get the A2 etc

phew, you were correct smooth operator......

it was no problem at all going from B3 to B1.... but to try to get to A3 was extremly difficult.

ended up with following *upgrades*

floor: 0.11
walls: 0.16
sloped ceiling: 0.11
flat ceiling: 0.09

windows: 1.2

70% efficient HRV with 0.5 ac/h

90% efficient wood gasification burner

100% low energy fixtures
100% draughtproofing

6 sq m of solar evacuated tube collectors.......

mine eyes have seen the light.....:)

smooth operater · 03-04-2008 4:25pm

HRV units can be up to 90% efficient- try vent axia, other than that good work. Outta curiousity, what kW.hr/m2 are you at with that? How bigs the house?

sydthebeat · 03-04-2008 4:42pm

thanks, good to know... what running (w/hr by the way??)

its 160 sq m GF, 130 FF so total 300 sq m....

currently at 74.69 kwhr/m2/y

Chimpster · 03-04-2008 4:45pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

phew, you were correct smooth operator......

it was no problem at all going from B3 to B1.... but to try to get to A3 was extremly difficult.

Its a bitch of a spine chiller alright when your trying to get something to a specific target.

Just out of interest, are you doing an air tightness test? If so what figure did you provisionally use for this?

smooth operater · 03-04-2008 4:51pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

thanks, good to know... what running (w/hr by the way??)

its 160 sq m GF, 130 FF so total 300 sq m....

currently at 74.69 kwhr/m2/y

0.92w/hr

well done, when the client hears its an A they'll be delighted

sydthebeat · 03-04-2008 5:01pm

hopefully they wont blow a fuse when they see the construction...

floor:
150 PU insulation 150 conc slab

walls:
330 cavity with 80 PU partial fill, drylined with 52.5 thermal lining

sloped ceiling:
200 PU between rafter, 50 PU over (warm roof) 52.5 thermal lining as ceiling

flat ceiling:
200 quilted over
150 Pu between joists
52.5 thermal lining as ceiling

I know its easy to pick holes in the construction details, but i have to taken into account the contract type (direct labour) and supervision standard (basic inspections)

smooth operater · 03-04-2008 5:12pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

hopefully they wont blow a fuse when they see the construction...

lol

If its an A rated house they want, thats one off the roads they'd have to go down. Its not your fault thats whats required.

sinnerboy · 03-04-2008 5:42pm

might find windows at 1.2 difficult source at right price - 1.4 opens up a reasonable choice

and will they ACTUALLY install low energy fitting everywhere ?

not picking holes here , good posting STB

sinnerboy · 03-04-2008 5:45pm

would you consider for ext walls

215 block on flat with rendered "outsulation" - would cut down on y factor

( if permitted design allows of course )

sydthebeat · 07-04-2008 11:06am

sinnerboy wrote: »

might find windows at 1.2 difficult source at right price - 1.4 opens up a reasonable choice

and will they ACTUALLY install low energy fitting everywhere ?

not picking holes here , good posting STB

1. good point about window selection, will know more after tender process.
2. they will at least have low energy bulbs, which is allowed in DEAP

sinnerboy · 07-04-2008 12:52pm

What I mean about low energy lighting ( fittings or simply bulbs ) is that they can be fairly awful , in terms of light quality Client may aspire to using but may not follow through .

( not a criticism of you STB )

07-04-2008 1:04pm

I thought that DEAP only counted low energy FITTINGS to cut out the option of replacing the expensive low energy light bulbs with standard ones.

Air tightness,
Anybody do an air tightness test on a house yet? I had a B1 and when I added the results of the airtightness test (3 ac per hour) it went down to a C. What I'm finding is that the less information you have the better your rating (standard values seem too high, 100% draft sealed? front elevation south facing? default 2 sheltered sides)

sydthebeat · 07-04-2008 1:17pm

did you divide the air tightness result by 20???

an air change rate of 3 (which is exceptionally good BTW!!) is actually inputted as 0.15 in DEAP

on the low energy outlets....

Allowing for fixed low-energy outlets

In Irish dwellings, the average annual energy consumption for lighting per unit floor area, EB, is taken to as follows if no low-energy lighting is used.

EB = 9.3 kWh/m2 year (L1)

The DEAP calculation takes account of fixed lighting outlets with low-energy lamps, by including a correction factor C1:

C1 = 1 – 0.5 ´ NLE/N (L2)

where NLE is the number of fixed low energy lighting outlets (including sockets or complete luminaires capable of taking only low-energy lamps, and also compact fluorescent lamps that fitted into ordinary lighting sockets) and N is the total number of fixed lighting outlets (only the ratio NLE/N is needed).

smooth operater · 07-04-2008 10:46pm

The result of your air tightness test is given in m3/m2/hr at + or - 50PA which is known as your- air pearmability

Its that result you divide by 20 to get the ac/h at atmospheric pressure

muffler · 10-04-2008 5:57pm

A question for all you BER assessors or those who aspire to be.

I had a talk with an auctioneer today and he informs me that there is nobody qualified to issue any details for a second hand house. He said that in order to do so another course had to be done and that the IAVA have been told that the course is not yet available.

So can someone selling a 2nd hand house next year get a cert for it?

Comments please.

sinnerboy · 10-04-2008 6:27pm

muffler wrote: »

A question for all you BER assessors or those who aspire to be.

I had a talk with an auctioneer today and he informs me that there is nobody qualified to issue any details for a second hand house. He said that in order to do so another course had to be done and that the IAVA have been told that the course is not yet available.

So can someone selling a 2nd hand house next year get a cert for it?

Comments please.

the auctioneer is correct - see post 109 of this thread

my prediction - the minister will have to push BER implementation dates back

muffler · 11-04-2008 12:16am

sinnerboy wrote: »

the auctioneer is correct - see post 109 of this thread

my prediction - the minister will have to push BER implementation dates back

Good man. Cheers

Villain · 11-04-2008 10:21am

Is that still due to the software not been ready for existing houses?

sydthebeat · 11-04-2008 10:27am

Villain wrote: »

Is that still due to the software not been ready for existing houses?

i would go a step futher and say its because the procedure isnt finalised yet. We have DEAP for new houses, which needs to be upgraded to incorporate 1st July 2008 changes.....

We have no idea whats up and coming for existing houses.

There is a BER workshop for SEI registered assessors as part of the energy show, so i should have more info for you after april 16th.

smooth operater · 11-04-2008 10:29am

sydthebeat wrote: »

We have DEAP for new houses, which needs to be upgraded to incorporate 1st July 2008 changes.....

Thats up on the SEI website already...

sydthebeat · 11-04-2008 12:33pm

thats the xls worksheet and not the 'stand alone' crystal (?) software.

smooth operater · 11-04-2008 12:57pm

True, but it tells you whether or not it complies with the July regulations.
Its a case of doing the deap on the xls sheet, then transferring it over.

-unlaoised- · 14-04-2008 10:55pm

Hello,
If a house has an internal garage how would you enter this into DEAP in the building elements section.
Also the first floor overhangs the ground floor by 1m, am i correct in saying that this will be another floor to be calculated. The build up of this floor is not given though.
I am doing an assignment and do not have a similar example. also it's a year since I did the BER course and I cannot remember exactly how to do it.

Thanks.

holdfast · 15-04-2008 1:08pm

I was at a lecture that said a passive house would get a B rating in the new energy rating system. Anyone any thoughts on it. the difference of delivered engery v primary energy does not help, dims are taken from different points.

smooth operater · 15-04-2008 4:43pm

holdfast wrote: »

I was at a lecture that said a passive house would get a B rating in the new energy rating system. Anyone any thoughts on it. the difference of delivered engery v primary energy does not help, dims are taken from different points.

Where/Who was this lecture?

holdfast · 15-04-2008 6:01pm

Before attending the passive house conference in Germany. It was given by an architect working for a company design passive houses and attended by SEI. It was interesting I did not get a chance to really ask question on it. I am going to run my own calcualtions on this one and see.

ardara1 · 15-04-2008 9:11pm

holdfast wrote: »

I was at a lecture that said a passive house would get a B rating in the new energy rating system. Anyone any thoughts on it. the difference of delivered engery v primary energy does not help, dims are taken from different points.

Nonsense Holdfast - new regs from July want 40% better (Carbon & Energy use) - the will typically be B1 (some B2's) - Green Party want Zero carbon (Passive) by 2012 - well into A's

Passive house goals/definition
the total energy demand for space heating and cooling is limited to 15 kWh/m² treated floor area;
the total primary energy use for all appliances, domestic hot water and space heating and cooling is limited to 120 kWh/m²

holdfast · 16-04-2008 9:00pm

]

DEAP measures primary energy where the space heating in the passive house is measured in delivered. Big difference. I know this is not a straight as that but they are differences in the way the rate houses also in terms of measurement. Passive house takes outside dims where inside dims are used in DEAP and you could go on. Don’t treat me like I am an a**. I am telling what the architect from the only register passive house told us in front of the DEAP guru`s before heading to the passive house conference. Do the calcs and see what you come up with. I have not ran the calcs but I hope to

sydthebeat · 16-04-2008 9:13pm

I attended the SEI seminar today at the energy show. Nothing much to state other than they still have a lot to do.

The software has yet to be completed for the revised part L

The survey methodology for existing houses is almost ready. They hope to have accrediated training courses up and going by august / sept.... This will be (AFAIK) a top up course about the survey methodology. This course will then have an end exam, but SEI themselves will have an 'on tour' exam akin to the driver theory test which u have to pass to register.
From what i can remember there will be a top up registration fee of €100.

Basically they still have loads to do.

The Q & A session was good for airing issues. The focus they are putting on BER is really at the sale / rent market which the see at the main instigator. They will be running advert campaign and will be meeting the law society conveyancing committee (why they havent done it by now is beyond me)....

probably more from me tomorrow when i review the hand outs.....

ardara1 · 16-04-2008 9:20pm

holdfast wrote: »

]

DEAP measures primary energy where the space heating in the passive house is measured in delivered. Big difference. I know this is not a straight as that but they are differences in the way the rate houses also in terms of measurement. Passive house takes outside dims where inside dims are used in DEAP and you could go on. Don’t treat me like I am an a**. I am telling what the architect from the only register passive house told us in front of the DEAP guru`s before heading to the passive house conference. Do the calcs and see what you come up with. I have not ran the calcs but I hope to

SORRY!! Holdfast - I did not mean to demean YOUR comment - was it not the architect that said it?

The only passive house in Ireland is in the process of going thru' a pretty rigorous monitoring regime for a while- lets wait 'till the results comer out to see how passive the building is.

As for the internal external dimensions thing- is this not more relevant to how the thermal bridging PSI values are measured? and if so - the fact hat DEAP or the authorities regulating measurement of same do not understand the principals involved make comparison with and BER rating nonsense? - again sorry fir using the word nonsense - but it's not addressed to you - you raise a VERY interesting point.

Chimpster · 16-04-2008 11:32pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

I attended the SEI seminar today at the energy show.

Yeah, I was in attendance. Loads to do is right...

One or two of the questions from the floor would you wondering at the knowledge of some of the trained assessors????

I wanted some clarification on the 'Independence' of the BER assessor. From what I gather they are publishing the assessors business interests beside their name on the register. I asked for the mic a few times but I was stuck in a corner.

So it looks like its up to the client to deem how independent an assessor actually is?

smooth operater · 17-04-2008 10:44am

holdfast wrote: »

Before attending the passive house conference in Germany. It was given by an architect working for a company design passive houses and attended by SEI. It was interesting I did not get a chance to really ask question on it. I am going to run my own calcualtions on this one and see.

This was an architect from a company MosArt

ardara1 wrote: »

Nonsense Holdfast - new regs from July want 40% better (Carbon & Energy use) - the will typically be B1 (some B2's) - Green Party want Zero carbon (Passive) by 2012 - well into A's

Passive house goals/definition
the total energy demand for space heating and cooling is limited to 15 kWh/m² treated floor area;
the total primary energy use for all appliances, domestic hot water and space heating and cooling is limited to 120 kWh/m²

As posted, there are so many variables with the Deap analysis and Passive analysis, main difference being the delivered vs primary, however its the secondary heating that screws the passive design afaik, I'd have to look into it

ardara1 wrote: »

SORRY!! Holdfast - I did not mean to demean YOUR comment - was it not the architect that said it?

The only passive house in Ireland is in the process of going thru' a pretty rigorous monitoring regime for a while- lets wait 'till the results comer out to see how passive the building is.

Which house is this your referring to? Afaik, the people at MosArt were the first people to design a passive house in Ireland? (Correct me if i'm wrong)

topcatcbr · 17-04-2008 11:07am

I was there yesterday also the 10am workshop. Someone made the point that as assessors we have invested heavily and put our faith in sei to promote this and have been let down. he got a round of applause.
Some quick facts from the sei handouts
455 BERS currently on public register
514 Registered BER Assessors

1639 Qualified BER Assessors
How many waiting on results?

Original target = 2000

the amount of assessments done thus far is less than the amount of assessors
Consider that of the assessments done many were in housing estates done by one assessor.

ircoha · 17-04-2008 4:38pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

I was there yesterday also the 10am workshop. Someone made the point that as assessors we have invested heavily and put our faith in sei to promote this and have been let down. he got a round of applause.
Some quick facts from the sei handouts
455 BERS currently on public register
514 Registered BER Assessors

1639 Qualified BER Assessors
How many waiting on results?

Origonal target = 2000

the amount of assessments done thus far is less than the amount of assessors
Consider that of the assments done many were in housing estates done by one assessor.

Whats the difference/relationship between

BERS currently on public register
Registered BER Assessors
Qualified BER Assessors

Thanks.
ps
re from ardara1

Passive house goals/definition
the total energy demand for space heating and cooling is limited to 15 kWh/m² treated floor area;
the total primary energy use for all appliances, domestic hot water and space heating and cooling is limited to 120 kWh/m²

Is that an eu definition or an sei one: thanks

topcatcbr · 17-04-2008 6:13pm

ircoha wrote: »

Whats the difference/relationship between

BERS currently on public register
Registered BER Assessors
Qualified BER Assessors

Thanks.
ps
re from ardara1

Is that an eu definition or an sei one: thanks

BERs = Building Energy Ratings (Certs) on public register= filled and registered with SEI ( Completed and approved assessments)
Registered BER Assessors = People who have passed the BER Exam and are registered with SEI
Qualified BER Assessors= People who have passed the BER Exam but are not necessessarily registered with SEI
SEI = Sustainable Energy Ireland

ircoha · 17-04-2008 6:43pm

Many thanks:
from sei.ie
<<A registration fee of €1,000 (plus VAT) is required to register with SEI as a BER Assessor. General registration will be on an annual basis and a fee of €500 (plus VAT) will be charged for annual renewal of registration. >> just wondering how long is the training valid for before u need to register: was at the ES today and a nice girl with plenty silicone implants offered me a BER training course at 1475, 300 less than normal price: a show special!

explains a lot:eek:
some bread being spent on this already
2100 training courses at 2k a pop = 4.2 mill
514 registrations 0.5 mill
455 assessments at 300 0.1 mill
so [4.2 + 0,5 + 0.1]/455 = 11k a cert:eek:

[I know the math is a bit selective but no harm to crunch the numbers]

holdfast · 18-04-2008 8:52am

its grand ardara1 and sorry for shooting my mouth off.

yes it was an architech from mosart and they were the first.

I also think the DEAP has a mandatory heating times and period which may not link up with php

Green_Man · 18-04-2008 10:24pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

I was there yesterday also the 10am workshop. Someone made the point that as assessors we have invested heavily and put our faith in sei to promote this and have been let down. he got a round of applause.
Some quick facts from the sei handouts
455 BERS currently on public register
514 Registered BER Assessors

1639 Qualified BER Assessors
How many waiting on results?

Original target = 2000

the amount of assessments done thus far is less than the amount of assessors
Consider that of the assessments done many were in housing estates done by one assessor.

I do agree, SEI seem to have let them down, they are not doing enough to promote and enforce the laws for BER certs on the existing new house builds. I was also at the show and did see a stand with guys promoting a ber directory site. I guess something like daft. might be good for public awarness?

G