Transport Aircraft

jonnybigwallet · 12-08-2022 9:56pm

That was a pretty cool operation,

Good Shout by the AC!

Larbre34 · 13-08-2022 9:10am

But at the same time, nonsensical.

I mean I applaud the logistics and the airmanship that made it happen, but by my calculation it would have taken them 4 legs and 17 hours of flight time to get to Kinshasa and that's just one way!

And by the sound of it, 3 pax plus mission gear, was there even room for a relief flight crew??

Any real air force, like the Luftwaffe, would send an A400 or an A319 on two sector trip - one out, one back - pick up the lads, relief flight crew in back, catering on board, comfort for everyone, the safety of multi-engines, maybe a few special forces operators on the manifest to secure the aircraft perimeter and what not. Essentially all precautions available.

The PC12 is a superb aircraft, but this isn't what it is for. Flying the Sahara in a single engine plane? Somebody had some balls. They should have called it Operation Black Buck!

jonnybigwallet · 13-08-2022 1:41pm

Maybe something along the lines of a DeHavilland Twin Otter would be ideal for this and similar ops. Wouldn't surprise me if the crew consisted of pilot and copilot plus 3 heavily armed ARW. Just in case the **** hit the fan....

roadmaster · 13-08-2022 3:59pm

According to Indo the two soliders where dropped off in Uganda were they will get home by commercial carriers.

It also mentions Air Corps assests where used. Did more the one aircraft go over?

https://m.independent.ie/news/two-irish-army-officers-evacuated-from-dr-congo-due-security-concerns-41909581.html

Markcheese · 13-08-2022 8:05pm

Still think a c295 would be the best current fit .. I know there'd be a long lead in , bit whatever would be ordered would have a long wait .. and at least crews maintenance,servicing facilities and spares will already exist by the time 1 would arrive .

jonnybigwallet · 14-08-2022 7:06am

Yeah..I'm ok Doh. Just dropped out of the chat a bit lately as I don't have much interest in Heli Ops ( as currently practiced) so left it to the experts. Good idea about more C295'S. I wonder would it be an idea to get one that can be fitted out for fire fighting, now that we have all this global warming come home to roost. Could probably use it on a 32 County basis and charge the NI government any time it goes north.

Larbre34 · 14-08-2022 12:39pm

I think the ship has sailed on those surplus 295s. Probably best not to be acquiring airframes with a lot of wear and lying up time

roadmaster · 14-08-2022 7:49pm

If the state put in an order for two new Casa 295s transport versions with Airbus what is the wait time ? I presume it would be quicker than the MPAs due to no fit out

sparky42 · 14-08-2022 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473127#Comment_119473127

I think the production line is pretty full with current orders isn’t it? Just a quick look on Airbus suggests there’s somewhere around 85 on the order books not yet delivered:

https://airbus.web.factory.eu.airbus.com/sites/g/files/jlcbta136/files/2022-07/2022-06_MRS_GEN_Ord-Deliv%20by%20country.pdf

roadmaster · 15-08-2022 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473859#Comment_119473859

The Casas must be doing something right

jonnybigwallet · 15-08-2022 5:06pm

Lovely piece of kit. Could do with one or two more of them in my opinion.

Larbre34 · 15-08-2022 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119477001#Comment_119477001

If only the rest of us had thought of that.....

jonnybigwallet · 15-08-2022 6:50pm

Well there we are then. Sure the wind of the word was enough for the scholar !

Sierra Oscar · 18-08-2022 11:30am

It would appear the PC-12 is currently stranded in Africa and unable to return to Ireland.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/air-corps-jet-stranded-africa-27768083?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

roadmaster · 18-08-2022 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488562#Comment_119488562

Not to worry they have 3 more.

If only there was some sort of aircraft that could be bought that could get there in less than 5 stops or could fly non stop!

roadmaster · 18-08-2022 12:33pm

The poor PC12 fleet will be run to the ground shortly the way they used them

Markcheese · 18-08-2022 1:19pm

Not if they're sitting on the tarmac in Africa 😎

What's the range of the new casa's ?

scotchy · 18-08-2022 1:22pm

In the air now.

Phew😓

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0818/1316468-air-corps-congo/

.

Strumms · 18-08-2022 1:40pm

Going back to collect gear…..What equipment needed to be repatriated I wonder.

From my rough maths…

the aircraft can carry approximately 2,700 lbs of fuel. A 10 leg return trip if what I’m interpreting is correct ?

so roughly 27,000 lbs of fuel say… you are paying for fuel plus it’s uplift each time.

would it not be cheaper and safer to buy the gear again ?

roadmaster · 18-08-2022 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119489110#Comment_119489110

I would imagine weapons and Amo falling to the wrong hands is the main issue if they left them behind

sparky42 · 18-08-2022 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119489110#Comment_119489110

As mentioned its their weapons, ammo, comms gear and such, remember last time we had this situation we left the equipment with a "friendly" nation to hold onto/whatever with them, guess this time that was deemed the wrong approach but someone forgot to ensure clearances for the return leg with weapons onboard.

In terms of usage, between the flights for Covid and everything else we are certainly putting hours on the fleet, which again makes you wonder why the fifth one was turned down? And of course highlights the gap of anything with "strategic" reach.

Larbre34 · 18-08-2022 4:35pm

Sending a single-engined, unstrengthened, light transport into a conflict zone of deteriorating and uncertain security, borders on an act of criminal negligence, in my view.

A) the lack of a tactical airlifter is again highlighted and B) given that, the Government should have paid for a friendly Government to evacuate our men and equipment safely.

roadmaster · 18-08-2022 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119489697#Comment_119489697

Ah sparky do you not remember they had no where to park the 5th PC12!!

Grassy Knoll · 18-08-2022 9:12pm

while the PC 12 had some clear limitations in terms of this particular mission, I think it clearly proves a) the need for an aircraft with more suitable legs, b) the capabilities of the Aer Corps to plan and execute such a task and c) the value already being derived from the PC12 craft.

The laying up of the plane is more a function of diplomatic/ bureaucratic wrangling, but should not take from what is a pointer of the more punchy roles Aer Corps should be undertaking … I would be more than surprised if more suitable aircraft is not acquired in due course.

jonnybigwallet · 19-08-2022 1:01pm

So we had to leave this beautiful piece of kit in the capable hands of the Ugandan Air Force!

sparky42 · 19-08-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493447#Comment_119493447

Her aircrew and the extras they took with them were with the plane, I doubt they just left random people mess with it.

Larbre34 · 20-08-2022 12:52pm

"In due course"

This 'due course' has been identified for decades, ever since the Government began committing the DF to ever more dangerous peace enforcement and training missions in conflict zones, where being dropped off and picked up by an Aer Lingus 757 every six months, simply does not cover the logistical and military needs of such missions, specifically unforeseen emergency departures from unsecured locations and / or with live fire in the area.

The utter failure by the civil and military authorities to address this glaring need, amounts to negligence in my opinion.

There should be a tactical military transport on-stand in Baldonnell, today, and every day there is not one, is one more indictment.

roadmaster · 20-08-2022 2:31pm

At this stage they may strip and hold on to the 235s when the 295s arrive for transport duties untill a suitable aircraft can be bought

Larbre34 · 20-08-2022 3:32pm

That wouldn't really solve the problem, even on an interim basis.

Both examples are very old, not strengthened and protected for tactical operations and have only 75% the range of a modern twin lifter like the C-27J or 60% the range of the C295 successor.

sparky42 · 20-08-2022 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119497703#Comment_119497703

Would there be space to park them though? I mean that's seems to be a critical issue.

Without the sarcasm though, given the issues with the service rates that they have had over the last few years in the MPA role, how much money would need to go into them now to get them up to a rate that would support any on call airlift? Given the lead time on any new transports or even just getting them second hand how long might they hang around in such a case and would there be a risk that certain parties would use them as an excuse not to buy something proper for the job?

Larbre34 · 20-08-2022 5:44pm

Too much money, for too little utility.

In fact, if I were the Air Corps seniors, I wouldn't give the DoD monkeys the satisfaction of suggesting it as a stop gap, they'd surely seize on it and consider it solved.

Grassy Knoll · 23-08-2022 8:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119497339#Comment_119497339

Put it this way, Coveney is likely to be moving on at year end, if for no other reason than ‘legacy’ I’d be surprised if there wasn’t an announcement. The business case so to speak is irrefutable at this point. Also we know discussions have been ongoing behind the scenes with aircraft agents so there is tyre kicking of some form going on in the second hand market. Finally an ac CoS is likely to count for something, particularly in the year 100 etc ?? … I could be very wrong but let’s see what the autumn brings …

roadmaster · 23-08-2022 1:22pm

Are the pair of former Jordian 295s still sitting in seville?

Larbre34 · 23-08-2022 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508999#Comment_119508999

I agree with all of that. The Navy secured more new hulls under Vice Admiral Mellett than they had in the previous 40 odd years. Lets see if Sean Clancy is just as influential.

Also, the vital operations of the Air Corps have been highlighted in the last 30 months like never before.

Budget 2023 is presented in about 4 weeks time, I guess we'll just have to be optimistic.

sparky42 · 23-08-2022 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511740#Comment_119511740

Not sure you can compare the situations, I mean the P60 class procurement started well before he was CoS from memory and P64 had mixed reasons for procurement. While as you say the AC limitations have been exposed, is it enough to nudge the politicians? Given some of the mixed comments in some of the reporting so far I’m going to wait and not get any hopes up.

Grassy Knoll · 23-08-2022 10:28pm

Money has been found for additional or unprogrammed purchases of equipment as the need has arisen in the last few years, so conceivably this could be met in 2022.

Larbre34 · 23-08-2022 11:04pm

I imagine the first thing Sean Clancy wants out of the Commission report, is the position of Chief of Defence.

Something that a) I wouldn't hold against him in the slightest and b) the Government should not kick down the road as has been indicated.

Larbre34 · 24-08-2022 1:55am

They'd be crazy to. By the time CHOD is enacted under legislation, Clancy will likely be finished his term and Adrian Ó Murchú and Rossa Mulcahy will be fighting it out for the gig.

roadmaster · 26-08-2022 4:43pm

Interesting day out for the air corps piliots

https://www.afgsc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3139404/irish-air-corps-visits-20th-air-force/

sparky42 · 26-08-2022 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525884#Comment_119525884

Interesting bit of news, though not what you’d expect to see.

roadmaster · 26-08-2022 8:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526620#Comment_119526620

Reci Mission for future irish AW139 Crew to be trained by the USAF since we will be getting more 139s probably?

sparky42 · 26-08-2022 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526874#Comment_119526874

Given the tasking for their 139s I’d have thought they wouldn’t be too eager for others to be involved?

Larbre34 · 26-08-2022 11:04pm

Ah yes, the 90th Missile Wing, custodians and operators of 150 No. Minuteman III Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, carrying 1,500 475 kiloton W87 thermonuclear warheads between them - or 47,500 Hiroshimas, if you prefer.

I'm sure the Air Corps found plenty in common there!

I do like the name Grey Wolf however, cooler even than Airwolf. I wonder will all our future Wolves be Grey....

roadmaster · 27-08-2022 8:33am

Ours will be renamed the Green Wolfhounds

roadmaster · 28-08-2022 11:57am

A more detailed article below on the trip. The USAF will be making a visit here this year. One was the funnyist comments in the journal comment section is "The Air Corps are a rogue Organisation" sound like a hollywood film plot!!

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-air-corps-us-air-force-visit-grey-wolf-5850550-Aug2022/

Larbre34 · 28-08-2022 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119532458#Comment_119532458

That particular fella is a crank with a huge vendetta.

Heraldoffreeent · 29-08-2022 2:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119532458#Comment_119532458

Surprised he spelt Rogue correctly, usually with the cranks its "Rouge", makes me think of the Follies Bergére for some reason.

roadmaster · 29-08-2022 8:45am

Could we see USAF Greywolf crews being sent to the air corps for a period of time to get operational experience on the AW139. It would be a win win for the state. We get extra crew for the AW139 fleet tempoarily and build up a good work link with the USAF

roadmaster · 23-09-2022 7:45am

Oh Dear somebody wants really rid of the learjet "its being held together with bandages"

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/micheal-martin-says-ireland-need-28059270

A tender only went out last week for the learjet

donvito99 · 23-09-2022 11:29am

The AC should not be doing any routine air ambulance work. That is for the HSE.

Transport Aircraft

Comments