Transport Aircraft

Leonidas BL

https://flyinginireland.com/2020/05/new-transport-aircraft-for-the-irish-air-corps/

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/varadkar-eyes-purchase-of-10m-military-transport-plane-834ebc96

Thought I'd start a thread for this new transport aircraft we're getting
I was kinda thinking the C27J be the most suitable because it seem to have a good mix of Troop Capacity, cargo capacity and running costs compared to the likes of a C130J or A400M

Another good buy might be a third C295 kitted out for cargo use only, but it does not carry as much troops or cargo and hasn't the same kinda range as the C27J.

Lets see what else people can come up with(im betting Jonny will want a fleet of An-225's, or a space shuttle).

sparky42

I think the CASA option are the most likely, but a) it's not going to be for the reported price and b) there's none available unless we could convince one of the nations ahead of us to let us jump the line.

The other option and from his comments I guess what Varadkar might have been suggesting is the commercial airliner route, there's going to a firesale of them between the low return to travel and the airlines that aren't going to survive, that could be within the 10 million or there about.

There's feck all chance of getting anything "military" either for the stated price or within any reasonable period. I mean take the Bangladeshi buy, apart from the support package from memory they needed investment first due to the wear the RAF had put on them.

Also as I said in the other thread the fecking stupidity of a "Defence Expert" or the former Ranger saying we could buy a C130 for 10 million...

roadmaster

Would there be many aircraft on the market where the side of the aircraft opens to get pallets in and can be used for both cargo and passengers or would they be in high demand at the moment?

banie01

As I posted over on the fighters thread, I honestly think a civil twinjet with a combi interior is what we need to be looking towards.

Can be utilised across a broad range of missions, with far greater speed and less need for refuelling.

1) Troop transport for UN missions
2) equipment and support of same.
3) Ministerial/Trade/Summit conferencing transport
4) transport of palletised cargo in cargo mode
5) Medevac
6) Disaster response
7) repatriation and support of overseas citizens

A deal for a late model 757 or Airbus with a combi interior will offer far more flexibility and immediate response capabilities than a turboprop of any type.
We have a wide range of world class service and support options for Civil jets in Ireland and add in the option of being able to lease it to private operators when not in state use.
This will allow a portion of the operating costs can be offset to a far greater degree than a turboprop could offer.

Larbre34

Agree with Banie and Sparky.

Its a medium range airliner with modular interior fittings we need, to be on-call to the State 24/7, not a tactical airlifter. Whether that be achieved through purchase of an airframe or a lease of one sort or another is the only question.

sparky42

An timely article on the demand for converted 737's and the sector:
https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/mro/p2f-conversions-boeing-airbus/

Peregrine

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Another good buy might be a third C295 kitted out for cargo use only, but it does not carry as much troops or cargo and hasn't the same kinda range as the C27J.

Does it not carry more troops?

Are there any spare mil transport aircraft lying around? I doubt we'll be buying anything that can only be delivered in 2-3 years. If they're spending money on additional aircraft now that wasn't in the white paper, I think it'll be something that can be put to use right away.

They can't justify buying something that will be delivered in 2-3 years without public procurement.

punchdrunk

Peregrine wrote: »

Does it not carry more troops?

Are there any spare mil transport aircraft lying around? I doubt we'll be buying anything that can only be delivered in 2-3 years. If they're spending money on additional aircraft now that wasn't in the white paper, I think it'll be something that can be put to use right away.

They can't justify buying something that will be delivered in 2-3 years without public procurement.

An old Airbus A320 makes the most sense, they can get Exers flying with Aer Lingus to come back part time and not have to rate anyone on a new type

Larbre34

Peregrine wrote: »

Does it not carry more troops?

Are there any spare mil transport aircraft lying around? I doubt we'll be buying anything that can only be delivered in 2-3 years. If they're spending money on additional aircraft now that wasn't in the white paper, I think it'll be something that can be put to use right away.

They can't justify buying something that will be delivered in 2-3 years without public procurement.

Indeed they can't. Both the emergency nature currently and the ready availability of good quality aircraft for a song at the moment, means this is something they should move on quickly.

I know lightly loaded 737s, 757s etc have landed at the Don, but do the runway lengths cause a problem for heavy loads or would heavy logistics have to operate out of Dublin or Shannon?

Peregrine

Larbre34 wrote: »

Indeed they can't. Both the emergency nature currently and the ready availability of good quality aircraft for a song at the moment, means this is something they should move on quickly.

I know lightly loaded 737s, 757s etc have landed at the Don, but do the runway lengths cause a problem for heavy loads or would heavy logistics have to operate out of Dublin or Shannon?

757s and 767s have taken off from Baldonnell to Lebanon with troops and no stops before. So the runway is probably okay for most things the DF would use it for. You won't get anything close to MTOW though so definitely an issue for heavy cargo.

I don't know about regular ops though. It's not unusual to see the UN charters parked on the runway as opposed to the ramp so I'd imagine there's restrictions with the taxiways or ramp. Sure, where would you even store it?

And I think we can place the probability of Baldonnell getting an upgrade somewhere between slim and none.

So many questions.

roadmaster

737/a320 for troop transport and big cargo and repaint the 235s and keep them for donkey work or areas a passenger jet cant land

Gatling

This article really shows why the aircorp need a dedicated transport aircraft

Two officers caught in a near warzone and the government has no real way of bringing them home or elsewhere safely



https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/former-senior-officer-claims-army-pair-have-been-abandoned-in-drc-1000916.html

pidgeoneyes

Out of curiosity, how big are the hangars at Baldonnel. An A320/737 size machine won't fit.
It would probably have to stored/serviced elsewhere.

Although €10million won't get an aircraft of that size anyway.

L1011

pidgeoneyes wrote: »

Although €10million won't get an aircraft of that size anyway.

In the current situation, there are going to be piles of early 00s A320s that leasing firms have zero chance of placing and the choice is sale or scrap.

Its going to take years and years for civil aviation to return to its 2019 levels, during which time thousands of newer airframes will be made so that era of airframe has no future civil life.

10m should do the job at this stage. Also plenty of A320 engineering experience available at DUB - not much point doing anything beyond line checks at Baldonnel.

Leonidas BL

roadmaster wrote: »

737/a320 for troop transport and big cargo and repaint the 235s and keep them for donkey work or areas a passenger jet cant land

I like this idea. Apparently the 235 can carry 50 troops.
How much life is left in them though??

roadmaster

I seen on the sligo coastguard Facebook page they had to transfer hse staff from tallaght to ballyshannon due to fire. Why was the air corps not asked?

Larbre34

roadmaster wrote: »

I seen on the sligo coastguard Facebook page they had to transfer hse staff from tallaght to ballyshannon due to fire. Why was the air corps not asked?

I imagine because you can fit many more bodies with kit on an S-90 than a '139, especially given the less than glorious service record of the latter this past 7 days.

roadmaster

It's two bad the finner runway is not still operational they could of run the pc12 up

punchdrunk

roadmaster wrote: »

It's two bad the finner runway is not still operational they could of run the pc12 up

Is the runway long enough?

punchdrunk

Leonidas BL wrote: »

I like this idea. Apparently the 235 can carry 50 troops.
How much life is left in them though??

The French are still flying transalls from the 60’s! How many wars and conflicts have they been involved in since then?

We’ve no excuse for not being able to keep aircraft built in the mid 90’s useable, especially as they’ve never seen combat usage levels or any rough service at all really.
we really need to embrace the concept of mid life upgrade like practically every other Airforce in the world!

the 235’s would make great GP transports I’d stripped out of electronics and given a minor refurb even if that costs a couple of million

sparky42

punchdrunk wrote: »

The French are still flying transalls from the 60’s! How many wars and conflicts have they been involved in since then?

We’ve no excuse for not being able to keep aircraft built in the mid 90’s useable, especially as they’ve never seen combat usage levels or any rough service at all really.
we really need to embrace the concept of mid life upgrade like practically every other Airforce in the world!

the 235’s would make great GP transports I’d stripped out of electronics and given a minor refurb even if that costs a couple of million

The 235’s have already had their MLU, they are also I think one of the highest hours of that airframe in usage with service rates that have been falling for years, hence why the 295 order finally got done. Think the papers had some articles around the time of the R116 loss that CASA have been trying to get us to stop using them due to wear, think their wing boxes have already needed replacement.

France and others can keep legacy planes going because they have the budget, even then they can have periods of significant down time depending on the airframe, not convinced that the 235s won’t be a resource sink, if that’s the limit of what we want, just amend the order to add a third GP 295.

roadmaster

punchdrunk wrote: »

Is the runway long enough?

Actually probably not I think its only around 500 meters long

sparky42

Interesting lineup for the NSSI webinar on air mobility tomorrow:
https://twitter.com/RACO_DF/status/1264931989100138499

Negative_G

roadmaster wrote: »

I seen on the sligo coastguard Facebook page they had to transfer hse staff from tallaght to ballyshannon due to fire. Why was the air corps not asked?

Does this answer your question?

https://www.facebook.com/148942718466693/posts/3729598953734367/

0lddog

Where are the 747SP combis that Qantas used to fly

sparky42

0lddog wrote: »

Where are the 747SP combis that Qantas used to fly

There's always that A380 that flew into Knock to be dismantled before the lockdown...

jonnybigwallet

That would be a hell of an asset to have!

roadmaster

Negative_G wrote: »

Does this answer your question?

https://www.facebook.com/148942718466693/posts/3729598953734367/

It does, the coastguard where just of the mark quicker with there social media. It s even more reason why the air corps need more helicopters to deal with emergency situations like this

Larbre34

Did that webinar have any sort of audience that might make it of use.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Did that webinar have any sort of audience that might make it of use.

Doubt it, but if anyone wants to watch:
https://youtu.be/F7BZFXeND7A

banie01

Just as an illustration of the volume of aircraft that will be hitting the 2nd hand and scrappage(unfortunately) markets in the coming months.

EasyJet alone will be disposing of 41 twinjets as part of their restructuring.
Lufthansa, Brussels Air, Air France all taking similar action.
The Air Corps will never be able to buy a suitable twinjet this cheaply again IMO, and the choice is available for whatever they'd like from late model Boeing and Airbus.

jonnybigwallet

Hope they don't buy a 737 max. Kiss of death that one.!

roundymac

banie01 wrote: »

Just as an illustration of the volume of aircraft that will be hitting the 2nd hand and scrappage(unfortunately) markets in the coming months.

EasyJet alone will be disposing of 41 twinjets as part of their restructuring.
Lufthansa, Brussels Air, Air France all taking similar action.
The Air Corps will never be able to buy a suitable twinjet this cheaply again IMO, and the choice is available for whatever they'd like from late model Boeing and Airbus.

The state this country will be in after this I don't we wii even be able to opperate a twin never mind buy one and if the "Greens" have their way it will be a glider or hot air balloon the Air Corps will be getting.:mad:

Larbre34

The Country will be fine. Or at least a lot finer than many others and it'll be a buyers market for many things.

If this new Govt is serious about solidifying counter-cyclical economics then they should spend the next two years using our excellent borrowing power and that of the EU Commission and EIB and stimulate, stimulate, stimulate.

jonnybigwallet

They could start by creating some employment by building up the DF and getting the Air Corps a decent amount of fast jets as well as this mooted transport aircraft.

Larbre34

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

They could start by creating some employment by building up the DF and getting the Air Corps a decent amount of fast jets as well as this mooted transport aircraft.

No. As usual, no.

Heraldoffreeent

Larbre34 wrote: »

No. As usual, no.

With Covid 19, you wouldn't feel the month ban go by.

Larbre34

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

With Covid 19, you wouldn't feel the month ban go by.

Was thinking that alright. A month short but sweet.

jonnybigwallet

No need to gloat lads. There is such a thing as free speech and my motives are extremely progressive and patriotic. God bless and keep well!

Larbre34

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

No need to gloat lads. There is such a thing as free speech and my motives are extremely progressive and patriotic. God bless and keep well!

Free speech and shyte talk are very different animals. Your motives are to talk shyte.

God bless.

Leonidas BL

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/royal-new-zealand-air-force-to-buy-five-lockheed-martin-c-130j-super-hercules/138715.article

So New Zealand are getting some C130J's

punchdrunk

Leonidas BL wrote: »

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/royal-new-zealand-air-force-to-buy-five-lockheed-martin-c-130j-super-hercules/138715.article

So New Zealand are getting some C130J's

Almost our entire defence budget for the year

Leonidas BL

punchdrunk wrote: »

Almost our entire defence budget for the year

Unreal isn't it!!

jonnybigwallet

Interesting post Leo. Thanks

Savage93

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Interesting post Leo. Thanks

that was quick!!!!!

Larbre34

NZs annual defence budget equates to about €2.6 billion. The 5 Herc Js deal is about €860 million.

I don't imagine for a second that as a 'Five Eyes' nation and an active ally of NATO that this purchase isn't being subsidised or offset in some way. They're responsible for a rather large corner of world real estate, if you include their oceanic region and Antarctic presence.

I guess if Ireland were militarily aligned then we'd have a bigger defence budget in the first place, so its apples and oranges.

I still think we're better off strategically with an airliner conversion with modular fit-out, but wouldn't a second hand C-130 or even a used 235 tactical lifter, as well, be a complete solution...

NewSigGuy

Larbre34 wrote: »

NZs annual defence budget equates to about €2.6 billion. The 5 Herc Js deal is about €860 million.I don't imagine for a second that as a 'Five Eyes' nation and an active ally of NATO that this purchase isn't being subsidised or offset in some way. They're responsible for a rather large corner of world real estate, if you include their oceanic region and Antarctic presence.
I guess if Ireland were militarily aligned then we'd have a bigger defence budget in the first place, so its apples and oranges.
I still think we're better off strategically with an airliner conversion with modular fit-out, but wouldn't a second hand C-130 or even a used 235 tactical lifter, as well, be a complete solution...

C-130 and CN-235 are in completely different class's, one gets us Embryonic capability the other gives a real world capability.

We can have an Airliner or a freighter conversion but there is currently no modern QC type aircraft available on the commercial market.

donvito99

NewSigGuy wrote: »

C-130 and CN-235 are in completely different class's, one gets us Embryonic capability the other gives a real world capability.

We can have an Airliner or a freighter conversion but there is currently no modern QC type aircraft available on the commercial market.

There are companies who modify 737s/767s certified for carrying passengers or cargo. Not sure if they are certified for dual (combi) flying.

Larbre34

The following is a quote from a 2008 article covering the conversion of the 757-200s for the RNZAF by MAE of Singapore.


"To meet the RNZAF requirement, MAE has reconfigured the cabin and installed a cargo door, crew access ladder as well as a military avionics suite.

MAE president Joseph Ng says the RNZAF will be able to operate the aircraft in an all-passenger configuration with 142 economy and 18 business class seats or in an all-cargo configuration with 11 pallet positions. The interior picture here shows the business class seats.

Ng says the 757 can also now be operated in a variety of mixed configurations, including a 138 seat and 2 pallet combination. The aircraft is also now equipped to handle aeromedical evacuations."

NewSigGuy

donvito99 wrote: »

There are companies who modify 737s/767s certified for carrying passengers or cargo. Not sure if they are certified for dual (combi) flying.

Any chance you can let us know the companys, the NZ 757's are old machines now and are due for replacement.

A similar version of the 737NG os A321 would be ideal, but as it is they do not currently exist and AFAIK there is little or no desire in the commercial market for such an aircraft.

donvito99

NewSigGuy wrote: »

Any chance you can let us know the companys, the NZ 757's are old machines now and are due for replacement.

A similar version of the 737NG os A321 would be ideal, but as it is they do not currently exist and AFAIK there is little or no desire in the commercial market for such an aircraft.

PEMCO is a US firm and IAI is an Israeli firm:

https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipment/aircraft/pemco-shows-off-new-737-flexcombi/

https://www.flightglobal.com/iai-details-767-tanker-conversion-plans/116670.article