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Transport Aircraft

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭ sparky42


    I think the CASA option are the most likely, but a) it's not going to be for the reported price and b) there's none available unless we could convince one of the nations ahead of us to let us jump the line.

    The other option and from his comments I guess what Varadkar might have been suggesting is the commercial airliner route, there's going to a firesale of them between the low return to travel and the airlines that aren't going to survive, that could be within the 10 million or there about.

    There's feck all chance of getting anything "military" either for the stated price or within any reasonable period. I mean take the Bangladeshi buy, apart from the support package from memory they needed investment first due to the wear the RAF had put on them.

    Also as I said in the other thread the fecking stupidity of a "Defence Expert" or the former Ranger saying we could buy a C130 for 10 million...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    Would there be many aircraft on the market where the side of the aircraft opens to get pallets in and can be used for both cargo and passengers or would they be in high demand at the moment?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,055 ✭✭✭✭ banie01


    As I posted over on the fighters thread, I honestly think a civil twinjet with a combi interior is what we need to be looking towards.

    Can be utilised across a broad range of missions, with far greater speed and less need for refuelling.

    1) Troop transport for UN missions
    2) equipment and support of same.
    3) Ministerial/Trade/Summit conferencing transport
    4) transport of palletised cargo in cargo mode
    5) Medevac
    6) Disaster response
    7) repatriation and support of overseas citizens

    A deal for a late model 757 or Airbus with a combi interior will offer far more flexibility and immediate response capabilities than a turboprop of any type.
    We have a wide range of world class service and support options for Civil jets in Ireland and add in the option of being able to lease it to private operators when not in state use.
    This will allow a portion of the operating costs can be offset to a far greater degree than a turboprop could offer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,422 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    Agree with Banie and Sparky.

    Its a medium range airliner with modular interior fittings we need, to be on-call to the State 24/7, not a tactical airlifter. Whether that be achieved through purchase of an airframe or a lease of one sort or another is the only question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭ sparky42


    An timely article on the demand for converted 737's and the sector:
    https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/mro/p2f-conversions-boeing-airbus/


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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    Another good buy might be a third C295 kitted out for cargo use only, but it does not carry as much troops or cargo and hasn't the same kinda range as the C27J.

    Does it not carry more troops?

    Are there any spare mil transport aircraft lying around? I doubt we'll be buying anything that can only be delivered in 2-3 years. If they're spending money on additional aircraft now that wasn't in the white paper, I think it'll be something that can be put to use right away.

    They can't justify buying something that will be delivered in 2-3 years without public procurement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭ punchdrunk


    Peregrine wrote: »
    Does it not carry more troops?

    Are there any spare mil transport aircraft lying around? I doubt we'll be buying anything that can only be delivered in 2-3 years. If they're spending money on additional aircraft now that wasn't in the white paper, I think it'll be something that can be put to use right away.

    They can't justify buying something that will be delivered in 2-3 years without public procurement.

    An old Airbus A320 makes the most sense, they can get Exers flying with Aer Lingus to come back part time and not have to rate anyone on a new type


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,422 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    Peregrine wrote: »
    Does it not carry more troops?

    Are there any spare mil transport aircraft lying around? I doubt we'll be buying anything that can only be delivered in 2-3 years. If they're spending money on additional aircraft now that wasn't in the white paper, I think it'll be something that can be put to use right away.

    They can't justify buying something that will be delivered in 2-3 years without public procurement.

    Indeed they can't. Both the emergency nature currently and the ready availability of good quality aircraft for a song at the moment, means this is something they should move on quickly.

    I know lightly loaded 737s, 757s etc have landed at the Don, but do the runway lengths cause a problem for heavy loads or would heavy logistics have to operate out of Dublin or Shannon?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Indeed they can't. Both the emergency nature currently and the ready availability of good quality aircraft for a song at the moment, means this is something they should move on quickly.

    I know lightly loaded 737s, 757s etc have landed at the Don, but do the runway lengths cause a problem for heavy loads or would heavy logistics have to operate out of Dublin or Shannon?

    757s and 767s have taken off from Baldonnell to Lebanon with troops and no stops before. So the runway is probably okay for most things the DF would use it for. You won't get anything close to MTOW though so definitely an issue for heavy cargo.

    I don't know about regular ops though. It's not unusual to see the UN charters parked on the runway as opposed to the ramp so I'd imagine there's restrictions with the taxiways or ramp. Sure, where would you even store it?

    And I think we can place the probability of Baldonnell getting an upgrade somewhere between slim and none.

    So many questions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    737/a320 for troop transport and big cargo and repaint the 235s and keep them for donkey work or areas a passenger jet cant land


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,300 ✭✭✭✭ Gatling


    This article really shows why the aircorp need a dedicated transport aircraft

    Two officers caught in a near warzone and the government has no real way of bringing them home or elsewhere safely



    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/former-senior-officer-claims-army-pair-have-been-abandoned-in-drc-1000916.html

    Langley, Virginia



  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭ pidgeoneyes


    Out of curiosity, how big are the hangars at Baldonnel. An A320/737 size machine won't fit.
    It would probably have to stored/serviced elsewhere.

    Although €10million won't get an aircraft of that size anyway.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 62,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Although €10million won't get an aircraft of that size anyway.

    In the current situation, there are going to be piles of early 00s A320s that leasing firms have zero chance of placing and the choice is sale or scrap.

    Its going to take years and years for civil aviation to return to its 2019 levels, during which time thousands of newer airframes will be made so that era of airframe has no future civil life.

    10m should do the job at this stage. Also plenty of A320 engineering experience available at DUB - not much point doing anything beyond line checks at Baldonnel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭ Leonidas BL


    roadmaster wrote: »
    737/a320 for troop transport and big cargo and repaint the 235s and keep them for donkey work or areas a passenger jet cant land

    I like this idea. Apparently the 235 can carry 50 troops.
    How much life is left in them though??


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    I seen on the sligo coastguard Facebook page they had to transfer hse staff from tallaght to ballyshannon due to fire. Why was the air corps not asked?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,422 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I seen on the sligo coastguard Facebook page they had to transfer hse staff from tallaght to ballyshannon due to fire. Why was the air corps not asked?

    I imagine because you can fit many more bodies with kit on an S-90 than a '139, especially given the less than glorious service record of the latter this past 7 days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    It's two bad the finner runway is not still operational they could of run the pc12 up


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭ punchdrunk


    roadmaster wrote: »
    It's two bad the finner runway is not still operational they could of run the pc12 up

    Is the runway long enough?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭ punchdrunk


    I like this idea. Apparently the 235 can carry 50 troops.
    How much life is left in them though??

    The French are still flying transalls from the 60’s! How many wars and conflicts have they been involved in since then?

    We’ve no excuse for not being able to keep aircraft built in the mid 90’s useable, especially as they’ve never seen combat usage levels or any rough service at all really.
    we really need to embrace the concept of mid life upgrade like practically every other Airforce in the world!

    the 235’s would make great GP transports I’d stripped out of electronics and given a minor refurb even if that costs a couple of million


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭ sparky42


    punchdrunk wrote: »
    The French are still flying transalls from the 60’s! How many wars and conflicts have they been involved in since then?

    We’ve no excuse for not being able to keep aircraft built in the mid 90’s useable, especially as they’ve never seen combat usage levels or any rough service at all really.
    we really need to embrace the concept of mid life upgrade like practically every other Airforce in the world!

    the 235’s would make great GP transports I’d stripped out of electronics and given a minor refurb even if that costs a couple of million

    The 235’s have already had their MLU, they are also I think one of the highest hours of that airframe in usage with service rates that have been falling for years, hence why the 295 order finally got done. Think the papers had some articles around the time of the R116 loss that CASA have been trying to get us to stop using them due to wear, think their wing boxes have already needed replacement.

    France and others can keep legacy planes going because they have the budget, even then they can have periods of significant down time depending on the airframe, not convinced that the 235s won’t be a resource sink, if that’s the limit of what we want, just amend the order to add a third GP 295.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    punchdrunk wrote: »
    Is the runway long enough?

    Actually probably not I think its only around 500 meters long


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭ sparky42


    Interesting lineup for the NSSI webinar on air mobility tomorrow:
    https://twitter.com/RACO_DF/status/1264931989100138499


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭ Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I seen on the sligo coastguard Facebook page they had to transfer hse staff from tallaght to ballyshannon due to fire. Why was the air corps not asked?

    Does this answer your question?

    https://www.facebook.com/148942718466693/posts/3729598953734367/


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭ 0lddog


    Where are the 747SP combis that Qantas used to fly :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭ sparky42


    0lddog wrote: »
    Where are the 747SP combis that Qantas used to fly :D
    There's always that A380 that flew into Knock to be dismantled before the lockdown...


  • Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭ jonnybigwallet


    That would be a hell of an asset to have!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »

    It does, the coastguard where just of the mark quicker with there social media. It s even more reason why the air corps need more helicopters to deal with emergency situations like this


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,422 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    Did that webinar have any sort of audience that might make it of use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,121 ✭✭✭ sparky42


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Did that webinar have any sort of audience that might make it of use.
    Doubt it, but if anyone wants to watch:
    https://youtu.be/F7BZFXeND7A


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,055 ✭✭✭✭ banie01


    Just as an illustration of the volume of aircraft that will be hitting the 2nd hand and scrappage(unfortunately) markets in the coming months.

    EasyJet alone will be disposing of 41 twinjets as part of their restructuring.
    Lufthansa, Brussels Air, Air France all taking similar action.
    The Air Corps will never be able to buy a suitable twinjet this cheaply again IMO, and the choice is available for whatever they'd like from late model Boeing and Airbus.


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