Liffey quays cycle route: Detailed drawings online

monument · 19-03-2015 8:42am #1

Here: http://www.dublincitycycling.ie/blog/?p=1479

monument · 19-03-2015 9:06am

This will be of interest to anybody involved in the last thread discussing the option of putting buses into Smithfield. Detail of Smithfield stop:

And route onto Church Street and back to the quays:

L1011 · 19-03-2015 10:30am

Without a severe crackdown on anti-social behaviour and then frequent policing afterwards, I'd not be happy to cycle along the edge of an extended Croppies Acre, unless its fenced in which case I'd not be too happy to cycle along what would be a tiny slice between a fence and the river... Catch 22 there.

However, Option 3 for A looks a lot less disruptive than I was expecting although I'd be concerned a little about the turning circle required Church Street back to the Quays with the volume of buses that'll be using it.

Option 1 would also require the same anti-social behaviour enforcement if they want pedestrians to use the boardwalk in preference - also, as the boardwalk is closed off with flood gates during exceptional tides this really can't be a runner.

hmmm · 19-03-2015 10:45am

It'll only take a few cars to not pay any attention to the yellow box on Church Street, and we'll end up with 40 buses queuing to try and get onto Church street. If your public transport system is dependent on compliance at a yellow box junction, it won't work.

How many buses will be able to get onto Church street at a time? The present bus lane can be nose to tail of buses.

The turning circle is a concern too as mentioned. One bus gets stuck and the whole line stops.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 10:57am

L1011 wrote: »

Option 1 would also require the same anti-social behaviour enforcement if they want pedestrians to use the boardwalk in preference - also, as the boardwalk is closed off with flood gates during exceptional tides this really can't be a runner.

If the boardwalk had to be closed off (and how often does this happen?) then surely pedestrians can simply walk along the north side of the Quays as they do now - hardly a reason to dismiss the proposal surely?

It's not that hard to cross over the road.

beauf · 19-03-2015 11:09am

From casual observation cycle traffic turning right off the quays, is a lot less than that going straight ahead or left. So most of it, will be crossing back to the left side of the street at some point. Crossing the traffic and bus lanes.

L1011 · 19-03-2015 11:17am

lxflyer wrote: »

If the boardwalk had to be closed off (and how often does this happen?) then surely pedestrians can simply walk along the north side of the Quays as they do now - hardly a reason to dismiss the proposal surely?

It's not that hard to cross over the road.

If the existing building-side footpath is deemed sufficient why are they proposing to extend the boardwalk to compensate for losing the river-side footpath?

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 11:22am

L1011 wrote: »

If the existing building-side footpath is deemed sufficient why are they proposing to extend the boardwalk to compensate for losing the river-side footpath?

No - I said if the boardwalk was closed off they could move to the other side of the road. That is an extremely rare occurrence.

Do you make plans on the basis of extremely rare events or the normal prevailing conditions?

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 11:30am

hmmm wrote: »

It'll only take a few cars to not pay any attention to the yellow box on Church Street, and we'll end up with 40 buses queuing to try and get onto Church street. If your public transport system is dependent on compliance at a yellow box junction, it won't work.

How many buses will be able to get onto Church street at a time? The present bus lane can be nose to tail of buses.

The turning circle is a concern too as mentioned. One bus gets stuck and the whole line stops.

I have to agree with this view.

In assessing Options 2 and 3, you do need to have some analysis of the numbers of buses that come down the North Quays during the morning rush hour:

For Dublin Bus alone there would be in the region of 90 buses coming down the Quays and another 5 coming down Church Street. Add to that Bus Eireann, Express Bus, Citylink, GoBus, JJ Kavanagh and all the other private operators.

When faced with that number of buses I really cannot believe that anyone can take seriously a proposal that suggests buses being diverted from a straight line route with sequenced traffic lights all along the route, to one that will require them to make a right turn across a yellow box junction to a short bus lane with traffic lights and make a left turn back onto the Quays at a signal controlled junction.

I just cannot see any sense in making what is the primary public transport route from west Dublin slower than it is at the moment, which is what Options 2 and 3 would do. There does need to be an improved environment for cyclists, but re-routing one of the busiest public transport corridors and making it slower is not the solution.

L1011 · 19-03-2015 11:32am

lxflyer wrote: »

Do you make plans on the basis of extremely rare events or the normal prevailing conditions?

In my industry, if I don't make plans for the rare events I lose my job.

AngryLips · 19-03-2015 11:34am

L1011 wrote: »

Without a severe crackdown on anti-social behaviour and then frequent policing afterwards, I'd not be happy to cycle along the edge of an extended Croppies Acre, unless its fenced in which case I'd not be too happy to cycle along what would be a tiny slice between a fence and the river... Catch 22 there.

Seriously?

bk · 19-03-2015 11:38am

hmmm wrote: »

It'll only take a few cars to not pay any attention to the yellow box on Church Street, and we'll end up with 40 buses queuing to try and get onto Church street. If your public transport system is dependent on compliance at a yellow box junction, it won't work.

We really need to start introducing automatic red light cameras, that issue fines and penalty points automatically throughout the city.

Start with this junction and a few other high visibility locations like the bus gate and I think you will very quickly see the required change in behaviour.

The same cameras should also be extended throughout the Luas junctions.

Also I wouldn't make this a yellow box, instead paint the whole area in very high visibility red, with bus only signs, to make it clear it isn't a yellow box situation.

Obviously the traffic light sequence needs to also be programmed to give buses priority and as much time as they need and sequenced so that they can naturally flow onto Church street and then onto the quays without actually needing to stop on Church St.

It can certainly be done well with the correct design.

L1011 · 19-03-2015 11:41am

AngryLips wrote: »

Seriously?

Have you see what [little] activity goes on in that park?

It has been a no-go area for everything other than injectable drug users for a decade at this stage.

desertcircus · 19-03-2015 11:42am

All cyclists on this route will need to join the route and turn off it. In both cases, a cycle lane on the river side is the inferior option; it's awkward to reach, and turning off will require crossing back across traffic in every case.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 11:50am

L1011 wrote: »

In my industry, if I don't make plans for the rare events I lose my job.

Which is when people would cross the road and use the alternative footpath as they do at present if the river floods.

cgcsb · 19-03-2015 11:52am

On my walk to work this morning (I walk because it's faster than taking a bus) there was a near solid queue of double decker buses on the quays from the Church Street junction right up to the Capel Street junction, this is a regular feature of the quays at rush hour. Introducing a fairly complicated right and then left turning for a double decker bus will see that queue grow exponentially. How will this problem be addressed?

Surely it would be better to have buses only on the quays between Heuston and Church street with cars diverted through smithfield.

hmmm · 19-03-2015 11:59am

bk wrote: »

It can certainly be done well with the correct design.

I imagine it would work in Munich, but I've no confidence in anything in this country that depends on compliance from road users. This is what a bus will be faced with
https://goo.gl/maps/kw3zO

They're also proposing to keep the 2 lanes either way, so a bus and a cycle route has to be fitted down the narrow left hand side here
https://goo.gl/maps/Uopq5

cgcsb · 19-03-2015 12:15pm

Can I draw people's attention to section A Option 2, liffey street west. Buses have to take a sharp left off the quays where they will meet cars going around the Dublin Bike station head on. Is this a mistake?

MrMorooka · 19-03-2015 12:17pm

That yellow box will simply not work, not without massive enforcement. As a result you will have buses unable to make the turn. Even without that, you will have buses queuing up for that stop at Smithfield. Not convinced there is enough room before the lights for the right turn to the quays to accommodate the number of buses, so you will have some buses queuing from the Smithfield side causing further aggro with the stop there. It's overall a pathetically low capacity solution, better suited for somewhere out in a suburb then on a bus trunk route.

You know what it looks like to me? They are just creating another Suffolk St.

bk · 19-03-2015 12:19pm

hmmm wrote: »

I imagine it would work in Munich, but I've no confidence in anything in this country that depends on compliance from road users. This is what a bus will be faced with
https://goo.gl/maps/kw3zO

You are correct, Irish people have little respect for laws.

That is why we need automatic cameras and fines, because what Irish people do respect is lost money out of their pocket and potentially losing their driving license.

One €80 fine and 3 penalty points and the person will probably never do it again and you can bet they will moan about it to every person they know. Word of mouth passes fast amongst the Irish.

hmmm · 19-03-2015 12:23pm

bk wrote: »

That is why we need automatic cameras and fines, because what Irish people do respect is lost money out of their pocket and potentially losing their driving license.

I pass the Bus Gate every morning, and despite an almost permanent police presence these days there are still people driving through it and getting fined - many if not most are tourists and people who are simply lost. You'll have people driving into that yellow box by accident or because of lack of attention, even with fines being handed out.

pclive · 19-03-2015 12:49pm

I think the best option is a mixture of two of the options: Section A option 1 and Section A option 3

Have all traffic going around Croppy acre but reducing the general traffic lane to one lane after the LUAS at Heuston Station. This would also allow a bus lane to be installed from Heuston Station across The Frank Sherwin Bridge linking up with the bus lane coming in from Parkgate Street.

Keeping the traffic reduced one lane after Heuston would allow the bus lane to rejoin the north Quays at Ellis Quay

A board walk would be needed as shown in Seaction A option 1 to allow the bus lane continue along the north Quays

Diverting the bus lane along Benburb Street would have a very negative impact on bus journey times as buses would be delayed getting back onto the Quays at Church Street.

bk · 19-03-2015 1:01pm

hmmm wrote: »

I pass the Bus Gate every morning, and despite an almost permanent police presence these days there are still people driving through it and getting fined - many if not most are tourists and people who are simply lost. You'll have people driving into that yellow box by accident or because of lack of attention, even with fines being handed out.

Sure, but the bus gate still largely works and has been highly successful and proves that it can be done.

The problem though with using a Garda, is that people will chance their arm and say "ah, I'm lost" if stopped and the Garda might well let them off. No such luck running a very obvious automated red light camera, you'll just get the fine full stop.

Tourists make the mistake at the bus gate because it isn't completely clear that it is bus only (I know lots of signs, but if you are a non native speaker it isn't as obvious), but almost every tourist knows what a red traffic light means, so I'd be less worried about them running red lights at this or any of the Luas junctions.

It is the Irish who seem to be uniquely colour blind, but automated fines should clear up that colour blindness fairly quickly!

beauf · 19-03-2015 1:11pm

desertcircus wrote: »

All cyclists on this route will need to join the route and turn off it. In both cases, a cycle lane on the river side is the inferior option; it's awkward to reach, and turning off will require crossing back across traffic in every case.

+1

It causes less conflict for bus stops and taxis making emergency stops and pulling to the kerb with no warning. Thats the flip side.

monument · 19-03-2015 3:49pm

Red light camera already in place at nearby junction, once can be put in place at Church St.

Transport and tourism benefits outweigh a very small, if any peak time delay to buses.

desertcircus wrote: »

All cyclists on this route will need to join the route and turn off it. In both cases, a cycle lane on the river side is the inferior option; it's awkward to reach, and turning off will require crossing back across traffic in every case.

Much of the cycling traffic is crossing the river so the delay is minimal to none.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 4:01pm

monument wrote: »

Red light camera already in place at nearby junction, once can be put in place at Church St.

Transport and tourism benefits outweigh a very small, if any peak time delay to buses.

I'm not sure that the over 6,500 plus Dublin Bus peak hour commuters (that's in one hour) on that corridor whose journey times are going to be extended would in any way agree with that view.

There seems to be a view amongst a group of people that extending bus commuters' journey times is acceptable - we've already seen it with the Leeson Street routes diverted via Westland Row and now this.

Adding to peak hour journey times on a key public transport corridor is something we should be striving to avoid.

cgcsb · 19-03-2015 4:28pm

monument wrote: »

Red light camera already in place at nearby junction, once can be put in place at Church St.

Transport and tourism benefits outweigh a very small, if any peak time delay to buses.

What?

monument · 19-03-2015 4:40pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure that the over 6,500 plus Dublin Bus peak hour commuters (that's in one hour) on that corridor whose journey times are going to be extended would in any way agree with that view.

Should what may only amount to seconds of a delay come before extra added route capacity, high tourism benefits, health benefits, safety benefits, and sustainably benefits?

lxflyer wrote: »

Adding to peak hour journey times on a key public transport corridor is something we should be striving to avoid.

Indeed, but it can't be ruled out.

pclive · 19-03-2015 4:42pm

The buses must not be forced off the Quays onto Benburb Street this would greatly reduce commute times

Everyone should remember to submit their comments through the official channel http://www.dublincitycycling.ie/blog/?p=1479

Posting them here is NOT making a submission

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 4:51pm

monument wrote: »

Should what may only amount to seconds of a delay come before extra added route capacity, high tourism benefits, health benefits, safety benefits, and sustainably benefits?

Indeed, but it can't be ruled out.

Look I appreciate that you have a particular interest from the cycling perspective, but please stop trying to belittle the impact on public transport. At peak times this is not going to add "only seconds" to bus journeys and trying to suggest otherwise is just not realistic. At least 95 Dublin Bus vehicles in one hour plus everything else thrown in are going to experience longer journeys.

This is the principal public transport corridor for most of west Dublin and funnelling every bus/coach from that direction down a road that will lead to two T Junctions is not a viable prospect.

I'm absolutely in favour of developing improved cycling facilities in this city, but they should be in tandem with improved public transport - not at it's expense. That's a nonsense.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 19-03-2015 5:17pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Look I appreciate that you have a particular interest from the cycling perspective, but please stop trying to belittle the impact on public transport. At peak times this is not going to add "only seconds" to bus journeys and trying to suggest otherwise is just not realistic. At least 95 Dublin Bus vehicles in one hour plus everything else thrown in are going to experience longer journeys.

This is the principal public transport corridor for most of west Dublin and funnelling every bus/coach from that direction down a road that will lead to two T Junctions is not a viable prospect.

I'm absolutely in favour of developing improved cycling facilities in this city, but they should be in tandem with improved public transport - not at it's expense. That's a nonsense.

Just looking through the comments there the cyclists all want option 3 or 2 without consideration for anyone else.

I agree with journey times for commuters on buses from all over the country and putting them all into that Junction will take a horrid long time to get around as well as a bus stop there.

Problem i can see here is it'll be mostly cyclists filling out that poll so the word needs to be spread to the commuters to show them what's planned and how it'll effect everyone and not just cyclists.

There'll also always be drunks and junkies on the quays. From the merchant house quay to the early house near the museum. Giving them space to hang around in wont help.

monument · 19-03-2015 5:26pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Look I appreciate that you have a particular interest from the cycling perspective, but please stop trying to belittle the impact on public transport. At peak times this is not going to add "only seconds" to bus journeys and trying to suggest otherwise is just not realistic. At least 95 Dublin Bus vehicles in one hour plus everything else thrown in are going to experience longer journeys.

This is the principal public transport corridor for most of west Dublin and funnelling every bus/coach from that direction down a road that will lead to two T Junctions is not a viable prospect.

I'm absolutely in favour of developing improved cycling facilities in this city, but they should be in tandem with improved public transport - not at it's expense. That's a nonsense.

Focus on what I'm saying rather than what you think I'm saying, please and thank you.

Can you accept the benefits around capacity, tourism, health, sustainable? Or not? If not why not?

Where are the two T-junctions?

Where am I'm belittling the delay? What delay would you put on it? It will be quicker for buses coming from Blackhall Place, it will avoid the current mess of a bus stop before the Four Courts.

beauf · 19-03-2015 5:37pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

... the cyclists all want option 3 or 2 without consideration for anyone else.....

In fairness a couple of us have mentioned option 4 as worthy of consideration.

monument · 19-03-2015 5:55pm

Option 3 is the only one I'd concider because it's the most balanced for all users. Option 2 would be worse for buses and option 1 would have too many walking/cycling conflicts.

Option 4 is in ways worse than what's there now because it's narrow segregation where it's least needed and exposed at junctions. It has low benefits because it won't be attractive to many more people than are already willing to cycle in current conditions.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 5:56pm

monument wrote: »

Focus on what I'm saying rather than what you think I'm saying, please and thank you.

Can you accept the benefits around capacity, tourism, health, sustainable? Or not? If not why not?

Where are the two T-junctions?

Where am I'm belittling the delay? What delay would you put on it? It will be quicker for buses coming from Blackhall Place, it will avoid the current mess of a bus stop before the Four Courts.

I am focussing on what you are saying - your posts have continually expressed a view that changes that have negative impacts on public transport, specifically buses and coaches, are not necessarily a bad thing, be it in this case or in the re-routing of buses via Westland Row and Pearse Street due to LUAS BXD.

I find that view really infuriating - we should be trying to encourage cycling and public transport and making using the car a less attractive option.

This is the biggest public transport corridor from West Dublin into the city and while there are benefits for cyclists (and rightly so), the public transport users (who any plans ought to be trying to encourage) are discommoded, while car users seem to be virtually untouched.

There are 2 T Junctions:
1 - Turning from Hammond Lane into Church Street
2 - Turning from Church Street back onto the North Quays

I cannot take your suggestion that funnelling 90 buses and probably another 20 coaches during one hour down that route and through a signal controlled junction with a yellow box onto a short stretch of road leading to another signal controlled T-junction (T from buses perspective) is going to add "seconds" to a journey that is currently a straight line route at peak times. I just can't.

cgcsb · 19-03-2015 6:05pm

Option 3 seems to be coming out on top with slightly less disruption for buses. Why is diverting cars, instead of buses off the quays not an option?

desertcircus · 19-03-2015 6:36pm

monument wrote: »

Red light camera already in place at nearby junction, once can be put in place at Church St.

Transport and tourism benefits outweigh a very small, if any peak time delay to buses.

Much of the cycling traffic is crossing the river so the delay is minimal to none.

A cycle path on the right-hand side of traffic, if it's used, will require cyclists to cross lanes when entering and exiting, whether on the quays or on the bridges. And a lot of cyclists simply won't bother using such a system; they'll simply stay on the road instead.

monument · 19-03-2015 7:52pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Option 3 seems to be coming out on top with slightly less disruption for buses. Why is diverting cars, instead of buses off the quays not an option?

Diverting cars would mean cars crossing bus lanes twice and would mean a larger impact on buses.

desertcircus wrote: »

A cycle path on the right-hand side of traffic, if it's used, will require cyclists to cross lanes when entering and exiting, whether on the quays or on the bridges. And a lot of cyclists simply won't bother using such a system; they'll simply stay on the road instead.

People said the same about the canal route yet it carries far more that the parallel cycle lanes. Also, there won't be room in many places to stay on the road, unless you want to go slowly along slow moving traffic (ie Option 2/3 from Blackhall Place to Church Street at rush hour).

Re crossing lanes -- in most cases, it will be at signalised junctions so it won't be "crossing" lanes of traffic in the normal since -- it will be more like going straight on and then turning:

My big question is how are they planning to do right turns for bicycles on bridges northbound and turning right to go eastbound -- that'll require good design and signalising.

A lot will depend on signalising. That's a bit of a worry of mine.

lxflyer wrote: »

I am focussing on what you are saying - your posts have continually expressed a view that changes that have negative impacts on public transport, specifically buses and coaches, are not necessarily a bad thing, be it in this case or in the re-routing of buses via Westland Row and Pearse Street due to LUAS BXD.

My stance on diverting buses is a pragmatic one due to everything not fitting into College Green and it being better for all modes not to try to do such -- if you look back to older BXD threads, you'll find my posts were saying that Luas should go around.

lxflyer wrote: »

I find that view really infuriating - we should be trying to encourage cycling and public transport and making using the car a less attractive option.

I agree, but sometimes the best solution is to move buses, as in this case because moving cars to the building side would create two major crossovers which would impact on buses more so than the Option 3.

lxflyer wrote: »

This is the biggest public transport corridor from West Dublin into the city and while there are benefits for cyclists (and rightly so), the public transport users (who any plans ought to be trying to encourage) are discommoded,.....

I'm not talking about "benefits for cyclists" -- the capacity benefits are benefits for the city and employment; the tourism benefits are benefits for the city and employment, the health benefits are benefits for the health service and the taxpayer as well as individuals, and the sustainability benefits is a benefit for the city and its people, not just those who cycle.

The phrase "for cyclists" also edges towards the misleading because most will read it as for current bicycle users when cycling is going to account for a far larger modal share than it does now.

lxflyer wrote: »

.....while car users seem to be virtually untouched.

Most options include omitting parking along the quays and the removal of a general traffic lane from Capel Street to O'Connell Bridge, etc

lxflyer wrote: »

There are 2 T Junctions:
1 - Turning from Hammond Lane into Church Street
2 - Turning from Church Street back onto the North Quays

Fair enough, but the Church St and the north quays isn't a T-junction -- it's a slip junction at one side of a four-way junction.

I've said before that there's no real reason why they don't make that a fully protected turn for buses that can be green all the time bar when pedestrians are crossing.

lxflyer wrote: »

I cannot take your suggestion that funnelling 90 buses and probably another 20 coaches during one hour down that route and through a signal controlled junction with a yellow box onto a short stretch of road leading to another signal controlled T-junction (T from buses perspective) is going to add "seconds" to a journey that is currently a straight line route at peak times. I just can't.

As I've said: It will be faster for some buses such as the ones coming from Blackhall Place; other benefits include the removal of the vast bulk of bicycles from the bus lane and it will avoid the poor junction before the Four Courts.

The design could do with some tweaking and red light enforcement cameras should be put on all bus/Luas junctions.

My main issue with the way buses are treated is in the Docklands -- parking being kept with no justification such as local shops, rather than retaining bus lanes etc.

Greenmachine · 19-03-2015 8:17pm

Option 3 seems the most bizarre. Are they planning on giving that section of the north quay to grass and two cycle lanes. If they can reroute buses along benburb street why not send the cyclists that way.

monument · 19-03-2015 8:40pm

Greenmachine wrote: »

Option 3 seems the most bizarre. Are they planning on giving that section of the north quay to grass and two cycle lanes. If they can reroute buses along benburb street why not send the cyclists that way.

A quay-side park with grass footpaths and a cycle path. What's so bizarre? This is a city, not just a network of roads for commuters or anybody else. The population density along the quays is a massive 10,000 people per square KM. This is about more than just transport.

Why not reroute bicycles?

1. Because the cycle route is along the river-side and rerouting it would require people cycling to cross three lanes of traffic at both ends of the detour. OR if the traffic light times were bearable for cycling, it would have a far larger impact on all modes of transport as they have to wait longer.

2. Both options could have such a massive impact on cycling that people may not use the route.

3. For people using the cycle route westbound and back onto the south side, that detour would not be the first but second detour -- making the route very unattractive to them. And coming up with an alternative to a the madness that is cycling on the south quays is a big part of this project.

4. Even if there were not the above reason, accomadation local access and a two-way cycle route would be a lot harder than putting in a bus lane.

hmmm · 19-03-2015 9:52pm

monument wrote: »

I'm not talking about "benefits for cyclists" -- the capacity benefits are benefits for the city and employment; the tourism benefits are benefits for the city and employment, the health benefits are benefits for the health service and the taxpayer as well as individuals, and the sustainability benefits is a benefit for the city and its people, not just those who cycle.

No-ones arguing about the benefits of a cycle lane along the quays. What is the question is whether sacrificing the bus commuters who travel via that route is the correct answer to the question.

The travel time at rush hour for commuters from Lucan is currently about an hour, with those coming from places like Leixlip, Celbridge & Maynooth even longer. You could say "move closer to the city then", but it has been the (stupid) planning policy to build what are effectively massive suburbs in West Dublin which have a large commuter population.

Giving Helga and Helmut a more pleasant cycle route down the quays on the way to the zoo is hardly a good argument for creating what looks like a massive bottleneck for bus commuters along that route. The above poster who describes it as a new Suffolk street is exactly right, that junction looks like an absolute nightmare, and we'll be lucky to get 3 or 4 buses through it at every light change - can you give any example of an existing similar junction that is coping with the level of bus traffic which currently uses the North Quays?

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 10:00pm

monument wrote: »

My stance on diverting buses is a pragmatic one due to everything not fitting into College Green and it being better for all modes not to try to do such -- if you look back to older BXD threads, you'll find my posts were saying that Luas should go around.

I agree, but sometimes the best solution is to move buses, as in this case because moving cars to the building side would create two major crossovers which would impact on buses more so than the Option 3.

Well you will forgive me, if I fundamentally disagree with your view on diverting the principal bus corridor from west Dublin from a direct route into one that leads into what are effectively for those buses two signalised T junctions.

And I have to say that at times I do find the tone of many of your posts (rightly or wrongly) as somewhat belittling the bus service in this city and the needs of its passengers. Suggesting that this diversion is going to just "add seconds" to people's journey times, particularly at peak times when journey times are critical, is just not a credible statement and comes across as that the buses don't really matter.

monument wrote: »

Fair enough, but the Church St and the north quays isn't a T-junction -- it's a slip junction at one side of a four-way junction.

I've said before that there's no real reason why they don't make that a fully protected turn for buses that can be green all the time bar when pedestrians are crossing.

I did qualify my comment about the Church Street/North Quays junction in the next paragraph as being a T Junction from the buses perspective.

It is effectively a T junction for buses as they will be turning left into what is a general traffic lane, from which the general traffic then merges into the lane outside before the bus lane starts. There is a strong risk that their path may be blocked at peak times by cars backed up to the junction.

monument wrote: »

As I've said: It will be faster for some buses such as the ones coming from Blackhall Place; other benefits include the removal of the vast bulk of bicycles from the bus lane and it will avoid the poor junction before the Four Courts.

The design could do with some tweaking and red light enforcement cameras should be put on all bus/Luas junctions.

I don't agree with this statement either - the 37, 39, 39a and 70 will just see the junction onto the Quays move from Blackhall Place to Church Street. They're still going to have to wait for the lights to change to get onto the Quays, and now all the other buses will have to as well, and the 83 and 83a may have to queue longer in Church Street.

The existing stop on the Quays before Church Street could be improved by redesigning it in a much safer manner in the existing location. No need to divert buses to do that.

monument · 19-03-2015 10:33pm

hmmm wrote: »

No-ones arguing about the benefits of a cycle lane along the quays. What is the question is whether sacrificing the bus commuters who travel via that route is the correct answer to the question.

The travel time at rush hour for commuters from Lucan is currently about an hour, with those coming from places like Leixlip, Celbridge & Maynooth even longer. You could say "move closer to the city then", but it has been the (stupid) planning policy to build what are effectively massive suburbs in West Dublin which have a large commuter population.

Giving Helga and Helmut a more pleasant cycle route down the quays on the way to the zoo is hardly a good argument for creating what looks like a massive bottleneck for bus commuters along that route. The above poster who describes it as a new Suffolk street is exactly right, that junction looks like an absolute nightmare, and we'll be lucky to get 3 or 4 buses through it at every light change - can you give any example of an existing similar junction that is coping with the level of bus traffic which currently uses the North Quays?

See the two lines which I've put in bold -- you clearly are arguing about the benefits of a cycle path along the quays. Here's 12 reasons why the Liffey Cycle Route should be supported -- I'd post it here but it'd make for quite a long post and over the image limit count.

The phrase "sacrificing the bus commuters" is hyperbold to the extreme.

hmmm · 19-03-2015 10:37pm

monument wrote: »

See the two lines which I've put in bold -- you clearly are arguing about the benefits of a cycle path along the quays.

No I am not. Perhaps you might stop picking out small pieces of posts out of context.

I am arguing the choice of route and the choice to discommode bus passengers.

Greenmachine · 19-03-2015 11:02pm

We seem to be giving more and more road space to cyclist without them contributing to the costs. We can provide all these cycle lanes and the cyclist won't even have to use them. Can't we come up with some kind of grading systems for cycle lanes and declare that cyclist are obliged to use higher category lane where they are provided. And cycle slower where hazards exist.

ezra_pound · 19-03-2015 11:27pm

Greenmachine wrote: »

We seem to be giving more and more road space to cyclist without them contributing to the costs. We can provide all these cycle lanes and the cyclist won't even have to use them. Can't we come up with some kind of grading systems for cycle lanes and declare that cyclist are obliged to use higher category lane where they are provided. And cycle slower where hazards exist.

We've only begun giving space over to cyclists. We've got a long way to go. We need to greatly increase the incentives and facilities for cycling. And all traffic should show down where hazards exist.

monument · 20-03-2015 12:17am

lxflyer wrote: »

Well you will forgive me, if I fundamentally disagree with your view on diverting the principal bus corridor from west Dublin from a direct route into one that leads into what are effectively for those buses two signalised T junctions.

And I have to say that at times I do find the tone of many of your posts (rightly or wrongly) as somewhat belittling the bus service in this city and the needs of its passengers. Suggesting that this diversion is going to just "add seconds" to people's journey times, particularly at peak times when journey times are critical, is just not a credible statement and comes across as that the buses don't really matter.

The full quote: "Should what may only amount to seconds of a delay come before extra added route capacity, high tourism benefits, health benefits, safety benefits, and sustainably benefits?"

You have yet to answer it or offer how long you think the delay will be. I think the main affect will be on off-peak buses, peek buses just need a small bit of priority to be kept moving but they are not usually bombing it down the quays.

And the junctions are not even close to T-junctions -- and this really does matter here...

lxflyer wrote: »

I did qualify my comment about the Church Street/North Quays junction in the next paragraph as being a T Junction from the buses perspective.

It is effectively a T junction for buses as they will be turning left into what is a general traffic lane, from which the general traffic then merges into the lane outside before the bus lane starts. There is a strong risk that their path may be blocked at peak times by cars backed up to the junction.

The traffic light sequence even on the current filter / slip turn onto the quays is nothing like a T-junction. Traffic turning left off the single leg of a T-junction has a longer and more independent cycle than traffic turning left onto the quays (which happens when northbound and southbound traffic also have green). By switching where buses are will also have to mean quicker cycles which give the quays less priority.

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't agree with this statement either - the 37, 39, 39a and 70 will just see the junction onto the Quays move from Blackhall Place to Church Street. They're still going to have to wait for the lights to change to get onto the Quays, and now all the other buses will have to as well, and the 83 and 83a may have to queue longer in Church Street.

(A) Being left to their own devices and joining the quays as they currently do.
(B) Joining the quays with a whole load of other buses

Under which option are the Blackhall Place buses more likely to get greater priority?

lxflyer wrote: »

The existing stop on the Quays before Church Street could be improved by redesigning it in a much safer manner in the existing location. No need to divert buses to do that.

Keeping left turns, keeping right turns, keeping bicycles on the building side, and redesigning the bus stop in any meaningful way... good luck with that!

LXFlyer · 20-03-2015 12:31am

Monument - I'm just not going to bother arguing this with you anymore - it's pointless, as it always just descends into an intense point by point analysis to the point of minutiae, and I have better things to do than to be getting into that.

I fundamentally disagree with your views and your analysis - let's leave it at that.

I will happily submit to the consultation process, which is where it counts, and will make sure that as many bus users do so as possible.

Aard · 20-03-2015 2:34am

Having reviewed the drawings I am shocked and appalled.

I won't go on at length, much as I'd like to critique every inch of the proposals. My main objections are as follows:

1. Shared space. Disaster for pedestrians and cyclists alike. Impossible for the visually impaired, or those with assistance dogs. Shared space seems to be used as an "ah sure I couldn't be bothered" when figuring out many of the junctions.

2. Junctions in general. No thought has been given to most junctions for cyclists. What this will result in is cyclists trying to figure out how to navigate junctions on the fly. They will likely have a stream of other people on bikes right behind them, so will be forced to make quick decisions that will likely endanger themselves and other road users. Absolutely unacceptable.

3. Frank Sherwin Bridge. This is just a massive "fcuk you" to cyclists. Despite what the drawings indicate, there is a Dublin Bikes station immediately north of Heuston Luas stop. Most people access this station from the quays. Likewise, most people depart from this station and go down the quays towards town. These movements have not been catered for. Expect to see a lot of confused cyclists on Heuston Bridge luas tracks. It is unacceptable that such hazardous conditions are being engineered into street design in 2015.

There is a lot more where that came from, but my blood pressure is too high right now!

Utterly disgusted with Dublin City Council and AECOM. What a joke.

paddyland · 20-03-2015 11:19am

There are a lot of things wrong with these DCC proposals. And there are a lot of things wrong with this Commuting & Transport forum. But I will say just one thing.

I am warning you folks, if this diversion proposal goes ahead, you have seen NOTHING like the mayhem that will ensue for buses. This double T-junction, zig-zag for buses at Church Street, WILL NOT WORK. It will be a DISASTER. I am seventeen years driving buses in Dublin city. I know what causes conflict and mayhem, believe me, I have sat in enough traffic jams over all those years, not moving, to observe and understand forensically what causes them.

It will also cause an enormous backlog into Church Street and Constitution Hill for general traffic, and Bridge Street and High Street in the other direction too, something that has not been considered or even mentioned here. Because either the buses from the tram lane get priority at the bridge, or the traffic from Church Street and the bridge. It cannot be both.

The overall effect is to reduce the capacity of the junction at the bridge by a third. To everyone. It'll take too long to describe. I understand traffic flow and traffic light sequences. I have studied enough of them. You just add up in your mind what the effect of cutting a third from the green sequence to each traffic flow here in the morning peak will do. Including the buses. And that is without the possibility of the box junction being blocked even just some of the time. Ponder that for a moment.

Do you think, for a moment, that anyone in DCC has yet considered the traffic light sequence timing intervals? No? Yes?

I christen them the Zig and Zag proposals, for obvious reasons.

cgcsb · 20-03-2015 12:18pm

Another point that has yet to be raised is the introduction of BRT bendi buses.

Can bendi buses do the double T junction?? surely their tail end would cause blockages if they were caught by a red light?

Liffey quays cycle route: Detailed drawings online

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