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Liffey quays cycle route: Detailed drawings online

monument

Here: http://www.dublincitycycling.ie/blog/?p=1479

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monument

This will be of interest to anybody involved in the last thread discussing the option of putting buses into Smithfield. Detail of Smithfield stop:

And route onto Church Street and back to the quays:

L1011

Without a severe crackdown on anti-social behaviour and then frequent policing afterwards, I'd not be happy to cycle along the edge of an extended Croppies Acre, unless its fenced in which case I'd not be too happy to cycle along what would be a tiny slice between a fence and the river... Catch 22 there.

However, Option 3 for A looks a lot less disruptive than I was expecting although I'd be concerned a little about the turning circle required Church Street back to the Quays with the volume of buses that'll be using it.

Option 1 would also require the same anti-social behaviour enforcement if they want pedestrians to use the boardwalk in preference - also, as the boardwalk is closed off with flood gates during exceptional tides this really can't be a runner.

hmmm

It'll only take a few cars to not pay any attention to the yellow box on Church Street, and we'll end up with 40 buses queuing to try and get onto Church street. If your public transport system is dependent on compliance at a yellow box junction, it won't work.

How many buses will be able to get onto Church street at a time? The present bus lane can be nose to tail of buses.

The turning circle is a concern too as mentioned. One bus gets stuck and the whole line stops.

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

Option 1 would also require the same anti-social behaviour enforcement if they want pedestrians to use the boardwalk in preference - also, as the boardwalk is closed off with flood gates during exceptional tides this really can't be a runner.

If the boardwalk had to be closed off (and how often does this happen?) then surely pedestrians can simply walk along the north side of the Quays as they do now - hardly a reason to dismiss the proposal surely?

It's not that hard to cross over the road.

beauf

From casual observation cycle traffic turning right off the quays, is a lot less than that going straight ahead or left. So most of it, will be crossing back to the left side of the street at some point. Crossing the traffic and bus lanes.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

If the boardwalk had to be closed off (and how often does this happen?) then surely pedestrians can simply walk along the north side of the Quays as they do now - hardly a reason to dismiss the proposal surely?

It's not that hard to cross over the road.

If the existing building-side footpath is deemed sufficient why are they proposing to extend the boardwalk to compensate for losing the river-side footpath?

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

If the existing building-side footpath is deemed sufficient why are they proposing to extend the boardwalk to compensate for losing the river-side footpath?

No - I said if the boardwalk was closed off they could move to the other side of the road. That is an extremely rare occurrence.

Do you make plans on the basis of extremely rare events or the normal prevailing conditions?

LXFlyer

hmmm wrote: »

It'll only take a few cars to not pay any attention to the yellow box on Church Street, and we'll end up with 40 buses queuing to try and get onto Church street. If your public transport system is dependent on compliance at a yellow box junction, it won't work.

How many buses will be able to get onto Church street at a time? The present bus lane can be nose to tail of buses.

The turning circle is a concern too as mentioned. One bus gets stuck and the whole line stops.

I have to agree with this view.

In assessing Options 2 and 3, you do need to have some analysis of the numbers of buses that come down the North Quays during the morning rush hour:

For Dublin Bus alone there would be in the region of 90 buses coming down the Quays and another 5 coming down Church Street. Add to that Bus Eireann, Express Bus, Citylink, GoBus, JJ Kavanagh and all the other private operators.

When faced with that number of buses I really cannot believe that anyone can take seriously a proposal that suggests buses being diverted from a straight line route with sequenced traffic lights all along the route, to one that will require them to make a right turn across a yellow box junction to a short bus lane with traffic lights and make a left turn back onto the Quays at a signal controlled junction.

I just cannot see any sense in making what is the primary public transport route from west Dublin slower than it is at the moment, which is what Options 2 and 3 would do. There does need to be an improved environment for cyclists, but re-routing one of the busiest public transport corridors and making it slower is not the solution.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Do you make plans on the basis of extremely rare events or the normal prevailing conditions?

In my industry, if I don't make plans for the rare events I lose my job.

AngryLips

L1011 wrote: »

Without a severe crackdown on anti-social behaviour and then frequent policing afterwards, I'd not be happy to cycle along the edge of an extended Croppies Acre, unless its fenced in which case I'd not be too happy to cycle along what would be a tiny slice between a fence and the river... Catch 22 there.

Seriously?

hmmm wrote: »

It'll only take a few cars to not pay any attention to the yellow box on Church Street, and we'll end up with 40 buses queuing to try and get onto Church street. If your public transport system is dependent on compliance at a yellow box junction, it won't work.

We really need to start introducing automatic red light cameras, that issue fines and penalty points automatically throughout the city.

Start with this junction and a few other high visibility locations like the bus gate and I think you will very quickly see the required change in behaviour.

The same cameras should also be extended throughout the Luas junctions.

Also I wouldn't make this a yellow box, instead paint the whole area in very high visibility red, with bus only signs, to make it clear it isn't a yellow box situation.

Obviously the traffic light sequence needs to also be programmed to give buses priority and as much time as they need and sequenced so that they can naturally flow onto Church street and then onto the quays without actually needing to stop on Church St.

It can certainly be done well with the correct design.

L1011

AngryLips wrote: »

Seriously?

Have you see what [little] activity goes on in that park?

It has been a no-go area for everything other than injectable drug users for a decade at this stage.

desertcircus

All cyclists on this route will need to join the route and turn off it. In both cases, a cycle lane on the river side is the inferior option; it's awkward to reach, and turning off will require crossing back across traffic in every case.

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

In my industry, if I don't make plans for the rare events I lose my job.

Which is when people would cross the road and use the alternative footpath as they do at present if the river floods.

cgcsb

On my walk to work this morning (I walk because it's faster than taking a bus) there was a near solid queue of double decker buses on the quays from the Church Street junction right up to the Capel Street junction, this is a regular feature of the quays at rush hour. Introducing a fairly complicated right and then left turning for a double decker bus will see that queue grow exponentially. How will this problem be addressed?

Surely it would be better to have buses only on the quays between Heuston and Church street with cars diverted through smithfield.

hmmm

bk wrote: »

It can certainly be done well with the correct design.

I imagine it would work in Munich, but I've no confidence in anything in this country that depends on compliance from road users. This is what a bus will be faced with
https://goo.gl/maps/kw3zO

They're also proposing to keep the 2 lanes either way, so a bus and a cycle route has to be fitted down the narrow left hand side here
https://goo.gl/maps/Uopq5

cgcsb

Can I draw people's attention to section A Option 2, liffey street west. Buses have to take a sharp left off the quays where they will meet cars going around the Dublin Bike station head on. Is this a mistake?

MrMorooka

That yellow box will simply not work, not without massive enforcement. As a result you will have buses unable to make the turn. Even without that, you will have buses queuing up for that stop at Smithfield. Not convinced there is enough room before the lights for the right turn to the quays to accommodate the number of buses, so you will have some buses queuing from the Smithfield side causing further aggro with the stop there. It's overall a pathetically low capacity solution, better suited for somewhere out in a suburb then on a bus trunk route.

You know what it looks like to me? They are just creating another Suffolk St.

hmmm wrote: »

I imagine it would work in Munich, but I've no confidence in anything in this country that depends on compliance from road users. This is what a bus will be faced with
https://goo.gl/maps/kw3zO

You are correct, Irish people have little respect for laws.

That is why we need automatic cameras and fines, because what Irish people do respect is lost money out of their pocket and potentially losing their driving license.

One €80 fine and 3 penalty points and the person will probably never do it again and you can bet they will moan about it to every person they know. Word of mouth passes fast amongst the Irish.

hmmm

bk wrote: »

That is why we need automatic cameras and fines, because what Irish people do respect is lost money out of their pocket and potentially losing their driving license.

I pass the Bus Gate every morning, and despite an almost permanent police presence these days there are still people driving through it and getting fined - many if not most are tourists and people who are simply lost. You'll have people driving into that yellow box by accident or because of lack of attention, even with fines being handed out.

pclive

I think the best option is a mixture of two of the options: Section A option 1 and Section A option 3

Have all traffic going around Croppy acre but reducing the general traffic lane to one lane after the LUAS at Heuston Station. This would also allow a bus lane to be installed from Heuston Station across The Frank Sherwin Bridge linking up with the bus lane coming in from Parkgate Street.

Keeping the traffic reduced one lane after Heuston would allow the bus lane to rejoin the north Quays at Ellis Quay

A board walk would be needed as shown in Seaction A option 1 to allow the bus lane continue along the north Quays

Diverting the bus lane along Benburb Street would have a very negative impact on bus journey times as buses would be delayed getting back onto the Quays at Church Street.

hmmm wrote: »

I pass the Bus Gate every morning, and despite an almost permanent police presence these days there are still people driving through it and getting fined - many if not most are tourists and people who are simply lost. You'll have people driving into that yellow box by accident or because of lack of attention, even with fines being handed out.

Sure, but the bus gate still largely works and has been highly successful and proves that it can be done.

The problem though with using a Garda, is that people will chance their arm and say "ah, I'm lost" if stopped and the Garda might well let them off. No such luck running a very obvious automated red light camera, you'll just get the fine full stop.

Tourists make the mistake at the bus gate because it isn't completely clear that it is bus only (I know lots of signs, but if you are a non native speaker it isn't as obvious), but almost every tourist knows what a red traffic light means, so I'd be less worried about them running red lights at this or any of the Luas junctions.

It is the Irish who seem to be uniquely colour blind, but automated fines should clear up that colour blindness fairly quickly!

beauf

desertcircus wrote: »

All cyclists on this route will need to join the route and turn off it. In both cases, a cycle lane on the river side is the inferior option; it's awkward to reach, and turning off will require crossing back across traffic in every case.

+1

It causes less conflict for bus stops and taxis making emergency stops and pulling to the kerb with no warning. Thats the flip side.

monument

Red light camera already in place at nearby junction, once can be put in place at Church St.

Transport and tourism benefits outweigh a very small, if any peak time delay to buses.

desertcircus wrote: »

All cyclists on this route will need to join the route and turn off it. In both cases, a cycle lane on the river side is the inferior option; it's awkward to reach, and turning off will require crossing back across traffic in every case.

Much of the cycling traffic is crossing the river so the delay is minimal to none.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Red light camera already in place at nearby junction, once can be put in place at Church St.

Transport and tourism benefits outweigh a very small, if any peak time delay to buses.

I'm not sure that the over 6,500 plus Dublin Bus peak hour commuters (that's in one hour) on that corridor whose journey times are going to be extended would in any way agree with that view.

There seems to be a view amongst a group of people that extending bus commuters' journey times is acceptable - we've already seen it with the Leeson Street routes diverted via Westland Row and now this.

Adding to peak hour journey times on a key public transport corridor is something we should be striving to avoid.

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

Red light camera already in place at nearby junction, once can be put in place at Church St.

Transport and tourism benefits outweigh a very small, if any peak time delay to buses.

What?

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure that the over 6,500 plus Dublin Bus peak hour commuters (that's in one hour) on that corridor whose journey times are going to be extended would in any way agree with that view.

Should what may only amount to seconds of a delay come before extra added route capacity, high tourism benefits, health benefits, safety benefits, and sustainably benefits?

lxflyer wrote: »

Adding to peak hour journey times on a key public transport corridor is something we should be striving to avoid.

Indeed, but it can't be ruled out.

pclive

The buses must not be forced off the Quays onto Benburb Street this would greatly reduce commute times

Everyone should remember to submit their comments through the official channel http://www.dublincitycycling.ie/blog/?p=1479

Posting them here is NOT making a submission

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Should what may only amount to seconds of a delay come before extra added route capacity, high tourism benefits, health benefits, safety benefits, and sustainably benefits?

Indeed, but it can't be ruled out.

Look I appreciate that you have a particular interest from the cycling perspective, but please stop trying to belittle the impact on public transport. At peak times this is not going to add "only seconds" to bus journeys and trying to suggest otherwise is just not realistic. At least 95 Dublin Bus vehicles in one hour plus everything else thrown in are going to experience longer journeys.

This is the principal public transport corridor for most of west Dublin and funnelling every bus/coach from that direction down a road that will lead to two T Junctions is not a viable prospect.

I'm absolutely in favour of developing improved cycling facilities in this city, but they should be in tandem with improved public transport - not at it's expense. That's a nonsense.

[Deleted User]

lxflyer wrote: »

Look I appreciate that you have a particular interest from the cycling perspective, but please stop trying to belittle the impact on public transport. At peak times this is not going to add "only seconds" to bus journeys and trying to suggest otherwise is just not realistic. At least 95 Dublin Bus vehicles in one hour plus everything else thrown in are going to experience longer journeys.

This is the principal public transport corridor for most of west Dublin and funnelling every bus/coach from that direction down a road that will lead to two T Junctions is not a viable prospect.

I'm absolutely in favour of developing improved cycling facilities in this city, but they should be in tandem with improved public transport - not at it's expense. That's a nonsense.

Just looking through the comments there the cyclists all want option 3 or 2 without consideration for anyone else.

I agree with journey times for commuters on buses from all over the country and putting them all into that Junction will take a horrid long time to get around as well as a bus stop there.

Problem i can see here is it'll be mostly cyclists filling out that poll so the word needs to be spread to the commuters to show them what's planned and how it'll effect everyone and not just cyclists.

There'll also always be drunks and junkies on the quays. From the merchant house quay to the early house near the museum. Giving them space to hang around in wont help.