EU Lead Ammunition Ban
Comments
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Grizzly 45 wrote: ».
So which metal on the periodic table has the same characteristics as lead without its toxicity. Only one science has found so far is Au..aka Gold. We've heard of "the man with the golden gun",but the man with the golden bullets...?:D
True machining would be more accurate,but is it cost-effective? And if so why isn't it being done already. Ditto pressure forming?
Also,is it a good idea to be firing mass amounts of copper into the environment?Remember the EU can come back on this legislation once they have "scientific evidence" that any alternative is damaging the environment and ban that too?
Other likkle problem is this; Your reloading tools and set-up is going to be JUNK,as it cant reload lead alternative bullets.
That is still a classified process by the ammo makers, and they aren't going to be releasing the tools and dies to the market for a good while yet.So you are going to be stuck with factory loads, or nothing...Something the F class boys might take aboard here too perhaps?
And I believe nobody was talking about what you refer to. But good points.0 -
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Bog Trotter99 wrote: »And I believe nobody was talking about what you refer to. But good points.
You were in your original post...and I addressed them.Bar the reloading."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »You were in your original post...and I addressed them.
No Grizzly my point or points was/were.
The nearest to lead in weight and softness is gold.
And no metal in the shape of a bullet is going to be more inaccurate than another taking out wind and gravity etc.
In fact the worse one was lead because at times through centrifugal forces and velocity it could disintegrate (Cast). One reason for copper jackets.0 -
Bog Trotter99 wrote: »No Grizzly my point or points was/were.The nearest to lead in weight and softness is gold.
Which I said in my post...i cant find where you first stated such?And no metal in the shape of a bullet is going to be more inaccurate than another taking out wind and gravity etc.
Well,unless you are intending to go shooting on the moon with no wind and gravity. Those two factors will and are kinda a factor on Earth. So they have to be considered in working with any other type of ammo material to replace lead.In fact the worse one was lead because at times through centrifugal forces and velocity it could disintegrate (Cast). One reason for copper jackets
One of the reasons,but not all of the reasons. Things like ethics,sportsmanship,politics had an influence on how bullets got developed post the BP cartridge era"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Bog Trotter99 wrote: »Oh come on. It's not rocket science. There must have been thousands of tests with different metals by arms companies in the past 150 years.
I doubt it. Why would they ? They had the ideal metal to hand, lead.0 -
Bog Trotter99 wrote: »Oh come on. It's not rocket science. There must have been thousands of tests with different metals by arms companies in the past 150 years.
You can ask all you want, but as I said twice before I do not know.0 -
I doubt it. Why would they ? They had the ideal metal to hand, lead.
Of course they have. Actually it was Eley long ago who told me why they have copper jackets. Because you may not know that long ago the .303 shooters at Bisley I think it was were looking for a better way to shoot their cast lead.0 -
The orginal 303 ammo always came with a full metal jacket projectile, the bullet- projectile under went various design changes but the initial concept and production was FMJ.
The main reason copper jacket bullets were developed was in response to the phenomenon of high velocity lead bullets fouling up the rifling in barrels. As bullet velocites increased through better propellants and barrel manufacturing the surface of the unprotected lead bullets can infact melt. The copper jacket, having a higher melting point helps to prevent lead fouling. With further innovations across many areas the FMJ was further developed into the familiar spitzer bullet we know today. The overall design helped with aerodynamics and fi an function in a range of military weapons particularly semi auto and automatic designs.
The outer jacket doesn't nessacerraly protect the bullet from disintegration because if you spin the bullet fast enough you can cause it to break up outside of the barrel - plenty of Utube videos on this.2 -
cookimonster wrote: »The orginal 303 ammo always came with a full metal jacket projectile, the bullet- projectile under went various design changes but the initial concept and production was FMJ.
The main reason copper jacket bullets were developed was in response to the phenomenon of high velocity lead bullets fouling up the rifling in barrels. As bullet velocites increased through better propellants and barrel manufacturing the surface of the unprotected lead bullets can infact melt. The copper jacket, having a higher melting point helps to prevent lead fouling. With further innovations across many areas the FMJ was further developed into the familiar spitzer bullet we know today. The overall design helped with aerodynamics and fi an function in a range of military weapons particularly semi auto and automatic designs.
The outer jacket doesn't nessacerraly protect the bullet from disintegration because if you spin the bullet fast enough you can cause it to break up outside of the barrel - plenty of Utube videos on this.
Sorry Cooki.....cast lead which was the way at the beginning before pressing cold lead will break up or deform long before harder metals such as copper.0 -
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After all this and not to turn political. How strongly do you feel about the EU wrongly outlawing your sport underhandedly?
Would you vote to leave the EU over this or just take it on the chin and vote to stay with your glorious masters?
Just to send a message to those who think they are above us.1 -
Bog Trotter99 wrote: »Sorry Cooki.....cast lead which was the way at the beginning before pressing cold lead will break up or deform long before harder metals such as copper.
I haven't a clue what you mean by the above, please explain.
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My point in my post explains the function of a copper jacket, it wasn't developed to stop lead bullets breaking up. It's main function was to stop lead fouling and the subsequent problems that arise from it.
Cast bullets (not ball) are made of an lead alloy while previously it was pure lead. The composition will determine the hardness of the alloy, get that wrong and you can problems. Until the proper development of smokeless powder there wasn't an issue with cast bullets, but as I said when the bullet velocites begain to increase lead fouling became an issue.
Those who cast bullets for use in modern firearms with modern propellants use a lube or powder coat to allow them to drive the bullet faster without fouling.0 -
cookimonster wrote: »I haven't a clue what you mean by the above, please explain.
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My point in my post explains the function of a copper jacket, it wasn't developed to stop lead bullets breaking up. It's main function was to stop lead fouling and the subsequent problems that arise from it.
Cast bullets (not ball) are made of an lead alloy while previously it was pure lead. The composition will determine the hardness of the alloy, get that wrong and you can problems. Until the proper development of smokeless powder there wasn't an issue with cast bullets, but as I said when the bullet velocites begain to increase lead fouling became an issue.
Those who cast bullets for use in modern firearms with modern propellants use a lube or powder coat to allow them to drive the bullet faster without fouling.
Originally melting lead and pouring into molds was the way to make bullets. Shotgun shot was dropped from a tower with a minimum height I think 30ft into water to make round shot. So it had cooled enough before it this the water and didnt deform.
Then cold pressing of metals was invented. This is a powerful press which presses cold unmoulten metal into molds. Fast and cheaply and automatically.
The trouble with lead being soft is that it could deform or break up cause by the spin on high velocity ammunition.
In the .303 you refer too. In WW1 when the .303 came into its own. Those cartridges didnt have smokeless, they used cordite in wire strips cut and inserted into the cartridge.0 -
You really need to fact check some of your info-Bog Trotter99 wrote: »Originally melting lead and pouring into molds was the way to make bullets.......
Then cold pressing of metals was invented. This is a powerful press which presses cold unmoulten metal into molds. Fast and cheaply and automatically.
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See the link below to review manufacturing processes involved in making jacketed bullets, this includes cast and cold press, plus various other assembly methods.
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Bullet.htmlBog Trotter99 wrote: »
In the .303 you refer too. In WW1 when the .303 came into its own. Those cartridges didnt have smokeless, they used cordite in wire strips cut and inserted into the cartridge.
Cordite is a smokeless propellant-Cordite is a family of smokeless propellants developed and produced in the United Kingdom since 1889 to replace gunpowder as a military propellant.0 -
Cooki I have no no need to check my info. I used to work in places that did same process for different applications and once a similar discussion came about which resulted in an email to Eley which I knew because its near to where I lived.
For your info...........Swaging...........is a process of making something bigger go smaller..........a easy description would be the necking of a cartridge, a shape you will also see in tent frames. In these examples, where something has to fit in something smaller with non critical tolerances (loosely). ....... With bullets the metal would be pushed or squashed into a 'die' (kind of precision mold). In this case for more exact or critical tolerances...........This type example can be done by extreme pressure pushing or pulling and in others by sets of rollers depending on what is being formed..........If you ever see anything called 'cold drawn' (pipe). Then this would have been made in these processes. Copper pipe is a perfect example. It is seamless (no weld) and what ever size you have, you can believe it started off 'much' bigger.
When sorting these industrial processes, the amount of work being undertaken is a large consideration in how something is to be made. This is because these machines are very expensive and costly to set up and run and also would need considerable production runs. Therefore on smaller batches, other processes would be used like casting and hand/auto making by turning. Each of these processes has and needs other work applied to produce the finished product. Casting needs dressing which is cleaning off excess and polishing to the desired finish. Turning would also need a little dressing work to finished product.
It can get very complicated to explain and boringly long drawn out and I type but with one finger......so thats enough.:eek:
Regards bullet propellant you said............ "Until the proper development of smokeless powder ..." The cordite in WW1 .303 bullets was not a powder. A powder will burn differently than a solid or something bound together or something in strips placed loosely in a cartridge. As far as I know there is one cordite. Smokeless powder comes in many different variants for different processes. Fast, slow, medium burning etc etc etc etc etc.
If I too was to go fact checking cooking recipes and processes on Google. Then no doubt I too would get similar misunderstandings of how things are done other than working in the actual industries which use those processes and even using those processes in my work.
I am out of this now because it has become nauseating. If you want carry on, I admit I am wrong on everything. As Manuel in Fawlty Towers said........"I know nothing".;)0 -
Bog Trotter99 wrote: »Can I ask why a solid copper or thicker copper coated steel or tin bullets couldnt replace lead bullets.
Myliple reasons, some already stated. But in summary. Copper will have very ballistics to lead.Bismuth shot is excellent, maybe better than lead, but the price of it is eyewatering.Grizzly 45 wrote: ».
So which metal on the periodic table has the same characteristics as lead without its toxicity. Only one science has found so far is Au..aka Gold. We've heard of "the man with the golden gun",but the man with the golden bullets...?:DBog Trotter99 wrote: »No Grizzly my point or points was/were.
The nearest to lead in weight and softness is gold.
And no metal in the shape of a bullet is going to be more inaccurate than another taking out wind and gravity etc.
There are others close still, like Technetium and Thorium. Which are radioactive. Or Thallium - the heavy metal of choice for the Teacup poisoner (Young Poisoners Handbook).
That's the issue with heavy metals, they are either radioactive, poisoners, of inert in which case that are shiny and valuable.
Lead is the least dangerous heavy metal that is inexpensive.
Discounting the wind, I can kinda get. But not discounting gravity, it's a constant.
A solid copper bullet from the same mold (figuratively). Will have lower mass.
So it has a lower ballistic co-effecient. And slows sooner (initial speed will be higher). And is greater affected by other forces (like wind).
To match the mass, it needs to be longer; which means it needs more spin to stabilise (many rifle barrels are now not suited to their callibre).
To negate that, the bullet needs to be longer (about 20% longer at a guess). Which means a longer profile to catch the wind.
Lead and copper also deform differently in the barrel.
High powered rifles can better overcome these issues. Lower powered rimfire rifles have less wiggle room.
It is possible to make a copper bullet that's just a good as a lead one. Sure.
But it would have a calibre, chamber, a barrel and a twist specific to that bullet. It's not a case of just swapping the material. Especially for rimfire and the like.0 -
It's been a busy week on the EU FUN front. So here are the updates,from over the last week.
**LEADBAN - BREAKING NEWS***
Dear All,
As you know within the legal framework of the lawsuit we filed against the EC, the Commission has a right to respond to our claim. And it is obvious that the EC will state that our lawsuit is baseless and should be rejected without being processed by ETOJ.
We received the said response. I am awaiting a response from our legal team if it can be published in full (I need to have their opinion as I do not want to break any legal rules, which would make our case harder). And in the response I’ve found the following statement. Mind you, this is an official letter from the European Commission to the European Tribunal of Justice:
“The entire argumentation of the applicants appears to be relying not on the contested regulation, which restricts buckshot ammunition on wetlands only, but ON NEWLY PREPARED DOCUMENT WHICH WILL PROHIBIT LEAD BUCKSHOT ON AREAS OTHER THAN WETLANDS, AND ANY LEAD AMMUNITION ON WETLANDS AND OTHER AREAS (see also point 41 below).”
So, the phase two, published on REACH webpage is not a theoretical exercise. For the EC this is already done deal, waiting for implementation.
Let me repeat one more time. There are hunters vs sport shooters. No sport shooters vs collectors. NO MORE. We either stand together and defend our rights, or they will be taken away from us, one by one by one.
You, and only YOU, can make a difference. Join the lawsuit. Ask your friends and colleagues to do the same. Ask your club to do so. STAND UNITED.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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July 8th***LEADBAN - IMPORTANT INFO***
For those who sent letter to ETOJ. We are aware that number of people received letters from ETOJ that their letters has been rejected due to lack of a lawyer (which is NOT required). This interpretation is WRONG and aimed at scaring you away from participation.
Latest tomorrow we will publish a letter on how to get around this issue AND allow our lawyer to file a protest against it.
Stay tuned
July8th ***LEADBAN - the EC POSITION***
Ladies and Gentlemen,
After we filed a lawsuit against the European Commission to the ETOJ, the EC sent its position to the ETOJ (in line with the procedure). As it was known in advance, the European Commission demands that our claim be rejected in its entirety without considering it by the ETOJ. Interesting behaviour, since they claim that our lawsuit is unfounded.
The European Commission bases its position on two main theses:
1. None of us is harmed in connection with the Regulation , so we have no basis to file a lawsuit
2. Our lawsuit is based on biased documents.
Allow me a short answer, along with some juicy quotes from the EC document (unfortunately I can't publish the whole thing):
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The EC is going to far-reaching manipulations. The letter states, for example, that in my case, I have firearms other than shotguns, and the Regulation only affects shotguns. According to the European Commission, is it possible to violate some of my rights, and I have no right to protest, because not all of them were violated. But at the same time, the European Commission made such a statement:
"The entire argument of the applicants' position appears to be based on an act other than the contested regulation, namely a restriction under preparation on lead shot ammunition in non-wetland areas and non-shot lead ammunition in wetlands and other areas (see also point 41 below). "
The EC is not concealing that it wants to introduce extended bans on lead ammunition as a whole and in all areas in a short while. So much for the supporters of the approach - it's not my business, because it only applies to hunters. No. THIS. APPLIES. TO. ALL. OF. US.
The EC claims that the cost of adapting a smoothbore shotgun to shooting steel buckshot is in the range of EUR 70, so it does not constitute an economic barrier. I'd like to see what this adjustment is all about, especially at this cost level.
At the same time, to our argument of infringement of property rights, the European Commission responds as follows:
“According to settled case law, the right to property, although constituting a fundamental principle of EU law, is NOT AN ABSOLUTE PREROGATIVE BUT SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION IN CONNECTION WITH ITS FUNCTION IN SOCIETY. It is possible to introduce RESTRICTIONS ON THE EXERCISE OF THE OWNERSHIP RIGHT ON THE CONDITION THAT THOSE RESTRICTIONS ACTUALLY RESPOND THE COMMON INTEREST AT WHICH THE UNION PURSES AND do not constitute a disproportionate and inherently unacceptable intervention by virtue of the intended purpose. guaranteed rights. "
Dear comra…. come back! officials. Eastern Europe remembers !!!
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The EC repeatedly claims that the documents we have submitted, such as the legal analysis by LEX, cannot be taken into account because LEX is an organization that defends the rights of firearms owners and is therefore biased. They are not saying that LEX is wrong. Only it is supposedly biased. To clarify, the situation is analogous to the one in which my car was stolen, and the defendant demands that the Court reject my testimony because I have an interest in recovering it.
Finally, for those who still have doubts about the EC's way of thinking:
“… It should be recalled that in a Union based on the rule of law, acts of the Union’s institutions enjoy a presumption of lawfulness. It is on the applicant to prove that the contested regulation is unlawful. "
And I repeat, since we have not shown that the Regulation is unlawful (allow me for this joke), why this fear of trial?
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Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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"Grizzl 45 - Sorry about that mess of data there.But it seems the Geeks have decided not to include any proper POST EDITING TOOLS in this revamp,or have hidden them so well I cant find them!"
Three dots in the top right of each post, click on it and you get options which should include edit.
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Tried it...All I get is a box that opens with EDIT.Click on it,nowt happens, and have to page refresh and repeat. Highlighting With Right key and backspace doesn't remove it either...
Just tried it now on this post.The tools work fine for stuff we are writing on boards, but doesn't seem to allow editing of imported text?
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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"not to turn political......vote to stay with your glorious masters?"
🤥
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Well in that case................................
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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Yes, lead shot can and at least was available copper plated. Was the only load I ever used for turkey over 20 years ago, in the US, (3" mag #3's, if remember right), only because that's what a friend I hunted with recommended the first time I went out. Stayed with them cause they worked.
Handload'd a lot back then, agree with tudderstone's mate, monolithic copper bullets were one of my preferred rifle hunting load, Barnes-X's (before kids, more money than sense then), don't remember any issues with loading, very accurate and absolutely deadly. Few lead cored hunting bullets perform even close unless going for the very top end $$$ premiums.
That said, don't agree with this EU stunt. Think seen Grizzly 45 encouraging joining a lawsuit. Where?
“Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”
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That said, don't agree with this EU stunt. Think seen Grizzly 45 encouraging joining a lawsuit. Where
Firearms United Network.Poland chapter is the main plaintiff in the EU court on this. So go to the mainwebpage.www.firearmsunited.com and that should give you some better details.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Another interesting article from the same website as above focusing ISSF .22 and air rifle lead Vs lead-free ammunition.
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This is from the latest ECHA email newsletter:
More time for evaluating proposed restriction of lead in outdoor shooting and fishing
We have received 319 comments to the proposal to restrict lead in hunting, other outdoor shooting and fishing. Thank you to all who have taken part in the consultation. The comments are now published on our website.
Given the vast amount of complex information received, we have extended the standard 12 months reserved for forming committees’ opinion by three months. This is to ensure that the input received during the consultation can be properly scientifically analysed in both of our scientific committees. As such, the opinion of the Committee for Risk Assessment (RAC) is expected in March 2022 and of the Committee for Socio-Economic Analysis (SEAC) in June 2022.
The SEAC opinion finalises the combined opinion of ECHA’s committees.
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I'm not following this topic as closely as I probably should be, but those submissions/comments are they from individuals, groups, countries or some combination of all three? IOW how effective might their input be. I know this ban won't be overturned, but perhaps common sense would be applied and the broad sweeping definition of a wetland and other problem issues might be "lessened"?
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Here's a link to where the submissions are:
Scroll down to where it says "Comments on annex XV report", you'll see "RCOM" parts 1 to 6 - these are fairly large MS Word documents for download containing submissions to a series of questions ECHA asked for opinions on. They're fairly long documents that I haven read fully through. The submissions are from individuals, environmental groups, national governing bodies, and governments. eg FACE Ireland & UK, IPSC, NARGC, Finnish Shooting Sports Federation, Norwegian Civilian Marksmanship Association, Lapua, Muzzle loading associations, Danish Government, etc. Most of what I've read so far is against the ban but it's open to all so there are submissions totally endorsing the ban also.
eg 1: Part of what one individual from France wrote - "The removal of lead from the environment is URGENT!!! It would be expected that the ECHA retricts the use and production of lead immediately and that the production, sales and use of lead will be forbidden immediately without transitional period."
eg 2: From a Swedish Individual - "General comments. I don't want to believe conspiracy theories BUT I can't help but wonder. As stated below; environmental issues are in most (all) cases non-existant. However the drive to limit _legal_ firearms access seems to influence the general discourse - even though legal firearms pose (almost) no threat to public safety. Almost all gun violence - over 99% actually - can be traced to illegal guns. Legal gun owners are generally no problem. In Sweden, we are constantly monitored by _daily_ cross referencing of criminal records and gun license records. If I committ a crime worse than speeding, the police will most likely send a SWAT team to my home to confiscate my firearms. During investigations!
So - in my opinion this is just a way to disarm European law-abiding citizens, using environmental protection as an excuse. And that is not just wrong, it is, frankly, dishonest."
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