General Rugby Discussion II

07-11-2017 2:16pm

awec wrote: »

So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

Good one lads.

No there will be endless debate and disagreement like there was when Ferg got picked ahead of Gilroy.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 2:17pm

awec wrote: »

So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

Good one lads.

Completely in favour of it. I think 3 years was probably too quick, but he's in now and that's that. You can't just pick him and then shut him back out when Ringrose comes back because he was born somewhere else.

Now that I know WR have addressed the broken system to a level I'm happy with, I'm completely behind anyone else who qualifies. If its Aki at 12 and Ludik at 13 who are our best partnership then pick them.

Buer · 07-11-2017 2:23pm

awec wrote: »

So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

Good one lads.

We actually almost had that precise situation this year with a project player and a young Irish player competing for the 13 jersey (but injury kept them apart). I'll quote .ak in the week of the England test this year:

Ringrose hasn't done anything to show he's a better option at 13 than Payne

Most sensible people realised what Payne can bring to the 13 jersey and were accepting of him slotting back in before RK was injured.

Former Former · 07-11-2017 2:37pm

awec wrote: »

So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

Good one lads.

Aki is good, but I don't think he's world-class.

If Ringrose can't get ahead of him, then we have to re-assess our opinions of Ringrose.

If Aki turns out to be world-class, then we'll get over our disappointment for Ringrose pretty quick.

prawnsambo · 07-11-2017 2:38pm

awec wrote: »

Yea? And?

As I said earlier, it was much easier to accept back then when it was a one-off. The floodgates have opened, it has become ridiculous.

I would be happy enough if Payne never got capped for Ireland again.

You're completely ignoring the reality that the prospect of becoming a capped international is how we bridge the financial gap between what we can realistically offer players and what the competition can. For the provinces.

So far, only three project players have had any meaningful caps for Ireland. There are six of these in Ulster of which only one has been cappped to any great extent. Ah You, Diack and Ludik are all eligible as well.

awec · 07-11-2017 2:42pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Completely in favour of it. I think 3 years was probably too quick, but he's in now and that's that. You can't just pick him and then shut him back out when Ringrose comes back because he was born somewhere else.

Now that I know WR have addressed the broken system to a level I'm happy with, I'm completely behind anyone else who qualifies. If its Aki at 12 and Ludik at 13 who are our best partnership then pick them.

Well then we'll agree to disagree on this. Personally I cannot just accept watering down irish rugby for the sake of a few decent players.

We expect young players to remain loyal to irish rugby but don't show the same in return.

"Play really well, if you're lucky enough that the IRFU don't import someone else to play your position you could be an important Ireland player some day."

If Ringrose loses out on caps because of Aki it's a real shame. It's not Ringrose's fault that the IRFU imported Aki, it wasn't even his province that needed the import, but he's the one who will potentially get fewer caps than he should have. Or Henshaw, it could be him missing out. Or Scannell. Or McCloskey. Pick your Irish centre, it holds true for them all. It's a shame Stander gets picked ahead of Irish players too. It's all grand though, cause we're a decent enough team and who gives a stuff so long as we're winning matches.

There is no excuse for any project player to be an Irish 23 these days. There is no excuse for Ireland to sign any more projects.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 2:47pm

awec wrote: »

Well then we'll agree to disagree on this. Personally I cannot just accept watering down irish rugby for the sake of a few decent players.

We expect young players to remain loyal to irish rugby but don't show the same in return.

"Play really well, if you're lucky enough that the IRFU don't import someone else to play your position you could be an important Ireland player some day."

If Ringrose loses out on caps because of Aki it's a real shame. It's not Ringrose's fault that the IRFU imported Aki, it wasn't even his province that needed the import, but he's the one who will potentially get fewer caps than he should have. Or Henshaw, it could be him missing out. Or Scannell. Or McCloskey. Pick your Irish centre, it holds true for them all. It's a shame Stander gets picked ahead of Irish players too. It's all grand though, cause we're a decent enough team and who gives a stuff so long as we're winning matches.

There is no excuse for any project player to be an Irish 23 these days. There is no excuse for Ireland to sign any more projects.

1) We're not watering down Irish rugby.

2) It's not Ringrose's fault that Aki is at Connacht. It's not Darren Cave's fault that Ringrose emerged at Leinster, does that mean Darren Cave should start as well? It's never anyone's fault that someone better than them is available.

All of this "watering down Irish rugby" ****e is particularly hilarious given how you were arguing endlessly for Pienaar to be kept at Ulster.

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 2:49pm

awec wrote: »

So why are we continuing to sign more project players?

How many of those are being looked at as project players and how many fall into the definition of project player regardless of what the IRFU view them as? A project player is technically just a foreign player who is uncapped at international level. Given the fact that the big 3 rarely cap players playing abroad then a sizeable proportion of foreign players are "project players" by definition but will never be considered for Ireland unless absolutely necessary.

JGP for example is technically a project player. But he's behind Murray, McGrath, Marmion and Cooney for Ireland at the very least. He's never likely to get capped unless there's some bizarre set of injuries/illnesses.

stephen_n · 07-11-2017 2:56pm

Jesus if Payne and Aki ever get picked together Awec's head will explode.

awec · 07-11-2017 2:57pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

1) We're not watering down Irish rugby.

2) It's not Ringrose's fault that Aki is at Connacht. It's not Darren Cave's fault that Ringrose emerged at Leinster, does that mean Darren Cave should start as well? It's never anyone's fault that someone better than them is available.

All of this "watering down Irish rugby" ****e is particularly hilarious given how you were arguing endlessly for Pienaar to be kept at Ulster.

Well now you're just being silly. Is Garry Ringrose a project player?

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 2:59pm

connemara man wrote: »

I'd say if you went as far as 4 deep the numbers wouldn't jump dramatically

Next level down would be something like:

Cronin Cronin Bealham
??? Holland
Reidy JOD Henry

Cooney Byrne
Reid Marshall
Wootton Hanrahan McFadden

So that's just 1 extra project, maybe 2 depending on who the other lock is. But as a small country with just 4 professional teams that's still pretty good going that we can look at having 90+% representation with 4 full XVs.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 3:01pm

awec wrote: »

Well now you're just being silly. Is Garry Ringrose a project player?

No. I'm pointing out that it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else being a project player. Just because a player is born here doesn't give them a right to play for Ireland, they have to be good enough.

awec · 07-11-2017 3:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No. I'm pointing out that it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else being a project player. Just because a player is born here doesn't give them a right to play for Ireland, they have to be good enough.

It has everything to do with it. The whole point of contention is project players.

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 3:04pm

awec wrote: »

Personally I cannot just accept watering down irish rugby for the sake of a few decent players.

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 3:04pm

awec wrote: »

It has everything to do with it. The whole point of contention is project players.

The rest of IBFs post is relevant, not just the bit you highlighted.

07-11-2017 3:05pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Jesus if Payne and Aki ever get picked together Awec's head will explode.

Funnily enough if It's Aki with McCloskey and Payne at FB instead of Kearney it might not be that big of a problem....

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 3:06pm

awec wrote: »

It has everything to do with it. The whole point of contention is project players.

No. You're saying that its not Garry Ringrose's fault that he can't play for Ireland because someone else is available. I'm saying, "duh". It has nothing to do with the validity of project players.

awec · 07-11-2017 3:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Funnily enough if It's Aki with McCloskey and Payne at FB instead of Kearney it might not be that big of a problem....

I resent that to be honest. It would still be a problem.

connemara man · 07-11-2017 3:06pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Next level down would be something like:

Cronin Cronin Bealham
??? Holland
Reidy JOD Henry

Cooney Byrne
Reid Marshall
Wootton Hanrahan McFadden

So that's just 1 extra project, maybe 2 depending on who the other lock is. But as a small country with just 4 professional teams that's still pretty good going that we can look at having 90+% representation with 4 full XVs.

Well I'd say Buckley Heff Bealham but I won't split hairs

but the fact I can shows the depth there. I'd also add Niyi and Leader into the back three conversation 4th &5th choice like it's a stupid conversation ( in so much as that of your not in the squad does it really matter) but it shows the depth

Cannon is having a very good season in Connacht. Instrumental in the lineout I wouldn't say he's ready for international play by any means but he always seems to up his game as required.

But I agree the project player taking spots myth can be done away with very quickly with a position by position breakdown like this

awec · 07-11-2017 3:08pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No. You're saying that its not Garry Ringrose's fault that he can't play for Ireland because someone else is available. I'm saying, "duh". It has nothing to do with the validity of project players.

It has everything to do with it.

You are removing the entire point of contention to try and make your argument, it's ridiculous.

Of course the argument is "duh" if you strip out the fact that he's a project player. The fact remains he is a project player and the fact that he is a project player is the whole point. You can't just ignore it for convenience.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 3:11pm

awec wrote: »

It has everything to do with it.

You are removing the entire point of contention to try and make your argument, it's ridiculous.

Of course the argument is "duh" if you strip out the fact that he's a project player. The fact remains he is a project player and the fact that he is a project player is the whole point. You can't just ignore it for convenience.

I've yet to see why it's more unfair. You haven't argued that at all, you're just saying its a fact.

awec · 07-11-2017 3:13pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've yet to see why it's more unfair. You haven't argued that at all, you're just saying its a fact.

Aki is not Irish, you know, the thing that's been contentious with these project players for years now?

Non-Irish players trumping Irish players for Irish national team. What's confusing about the issue?

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 3:17pm

awec wrote: »

Aki is not Irish, you know, the thing that's been contentious with these project players for years now?

Non-Irish players trumping Irish players for Irish national team. What's confusing about the issue?

He's qualified for Ireland! And it's "not his fault" he's IQ. So from now on he should be picked if he's committed himself. Ringrose doesn't deserve a single cap if he isn't better than the guy in front of him.

He's not "watering down" Irish rugby. He's adding to it. You just don't want him to for personal reasons and you're angry that everyone else won't subscribe to those reasons.

07-11-2017 3:20pm

The fact that we've virtually no Irish head coaches at provincial or national level bar Leo is of greater concern to me than Aki getting his game with Ireland.

07-11-2017 3:21pm

awec wrote: »

I resent that to be honest. It would still be a problem.

You resent it and yet have repeated examples of advocating for it in your posting history.

At this stage you are disagreeing with yourself more than the rest of us are so will leave it there.

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 3:25pm

awec wrote: »

Aki is not Irish, you know, the thing that's been contentious with these project players for years now?

Non-Irish players trumping Irish players for Irish national team. What's confusing about the issue?

While I totally understand the sentiment and probably would feel a bit aggrieved for Ringrose if Aki ended up taking his place it hasn't become a real issue for me yet at all. If we have 1 or 2 foreign players in our 23 then I can handle it. Other countries who are far bigger than us and have far larger playing populations have that, and sometimes more, playing for them. That tells me that relative to other countries we're actually doing a good job developing local talent. And that job is getting better and better with guys like James Ryan pushing guys like Roux down the depth chart.

It's clear to me that the IRFU want us to become as self sufficient as possible. That's exactly why they have limits on foreigners that the provinces bring in and why they are pushing guys to move around the provinces more. Both of which we have seen clear evidence of in Ulster at scrum half. The policies the IRFU have in place are there to do the thing you want them to do. Reduce the need for project players in Ireland. Yet when the situation suits you're happy to cry foul about those policies on the one hand while saying they aren't doing enough on the other. It's quite hypocritical tbh.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 07-11-2017 3:49pm

if the irfu tried to live without projects I would imagine they would have to ban niqs in all provinces to give the extra irish born lads a chance.

prawnsambo · 07-11-2017 3:54pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

if the irfu tried to live without projects I would imagine they would have to ban niqs in all provinces to give the extra irish born lads a chance.

It's not as though the Irish squad is stuck for players, it's the provinces that have the problem and the projects are the answer.

You look at where they are filling in at provinical level and it's obvious why they are there. The quid pro quo is that they can become eligible, but there's no guarantee that they'll ever be selected.

thomond2006 · 07-11-2017 4:14pm

Ah jaysus are we talking about project players in multiple threads now.

07-11-2017 4:50pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ah jaysus are we talking about project players in multiple threads now.

Did you know that Clint Newland having only played for the Maoiri all blacks was technically a project player.

General Rugby Discussion II

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