Water charges for excessive usage

28-11-2019 7:11pm

Benedict wrote: »

IW in their site (https://www.water.ie/conservation/household-conservation) have now said on a Q & A piece:

"Q. When did you start to measure customer usage?

A. We are continuously monitoring water usage to allow us identify leaks. Data is collected from metered households quarterly and district meters are used to identify excess usage in unmetered areas."

This is very strange. Why not put meters in "unmetered areas"? And what happens to unmetered homes in metered areas?
What percentage of homes need to be unmetered before it can be deemed and "unmetered area"?

And what use is it measuring usage in unmetered areas? Is this just for statistics?

Er, to ascertain leaks and/or excessive use.....The penny is finally dropping.

James Brown · 28-11-2019 7:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Er, to ascertain leaks and/or excessive use.....The penny is finally dropping.

How do they know who, in the unmetered properties is to blame? Now you get it?

charlie14 · 28-11-2019 7:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Er, to ascertain leaks and/or excessive use.....The penny is finally dropping.

Do you really not get what district metering is used for or are you just playing dumb ?
I`ll give you a hint as to what it is not use for.

Detecting relatively piddling amounts above allocation allowances.

McMurphy · 28-11-2019 8:05pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Do you really not get what district metering is used for or are you just playing dumb ?
I`ll give you a hint as to what it is not use for.

Detecting relatively piddling amounts above allocation allowances.

Water bot.

Benedict · 29-11-2019 8:51am

Rather than continuing to make silly comments, what would be really useful now would be if M84 were to focus on explaining exactly how she thinks IW can assess the usage of non-metered homes. She is the only person in Ireland (apart from her plumber) who knows how it can be done - it so cruel of her that she still refuses to share the secret with us.

29-11-2019 10:32am

Benedict wrote: »

Rather than continuing to make silly comments, what would be really useful now would be if M84 were to focus on explaining exactly how she thinks IW can assess the usage of non-metered homes. She is the only person in Ireland (apart from her plumber) who knows how it can be done - it so cruel of her that she still refuses to share the secret with us.

If you read all posts, then you’d find your answer. You’ll still not accept it.

In the meantime, Irish Water are working away upgrading the infrastructure, though I’m sure that you don’t believe this either.

K.Flyer · 29-11-2019 10:48am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...
In the meantime, Irish Water are working away upgrading the infrastructure, though I’m sure that you don’t believe this either.

Infrastructure repairs and upgrades were carried out long before Irish Water came along.
Just because I.W. came into being doesn't mean its happening any faster or slower than beforehand.
Irish Water are little more than a glorified call centre anyway, anytime I put a call into them it's usually a local council lad that comes out.

Benedict · 29-11-2019 11:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

If you read all posts, then you’d find your answer. You’ll still not accept it.

Ah go on, tell us how!

Have a heart!

Take us all out of our misery.

29-11-2019 11:48am

K.Flyer wrote: »

Infrastructure repairs and upgrades were carried out long before Irish Water came along.
Just because I.W. came into being doesn't mean its happening any faster or slower than beforehand.
Irish Water are little more than a glorified call centre anyway, anytime I put a call into them it's usually a local council lad that comes out.

And....who comes out when it wasn’t the council? The water fairy?

pablo128 · 29-11-2019 11:49am

Yous are being trolled now, and have been for years while all she does is bang exactly the same drum every time.

Seriously. Just ignore.

blanch152 · 29-11-2019 12:10pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Problem is, her party colleagues in her local area obviously don't see her as innocent, nor do the higher ups, hence her being dropped like a hot potato from the ticket.

Following her disastrous interview, the public obviously don't view her as innocent, and the report Leo sanctioned said she overstated her injuries, that's just carefully crafted double talk roughly translated means "she lied through her hoop".

Maria could have given a big eff you to all her doubters by going the full good with her claim, but she chose not to, and in fact apologised for chancing her arm - something I don't think Murphy did.

It is nice that you have finally found your voice to air your opinion, seeing as you had none about her on the actual thread about her, even if it's in a thread about water charges.

Good point, Maria did apologise and Murphy didn't. That certainly puts her above him in the ranks of decent people, though they are both probably in the last decile.

Last I checked she has the same status as Murphy - hasn't been convicted of a crime - but Murphy gets a free pass on these boards, while she doesn't. The same free pass is given to the likes of Gerry Adams if anyone dares suggest he was a member of the IRA.

That isn't an opinion defending Maria by the way, it is merely observational facts about the behaviour of posters on these threads. Different standards applied depending on their political perspective.

Despite some people having an ego so big that they think I follow them around on boards, I only point out the most hypocritical posts.

charlie14 · 29-11-2019 1:10pm

Benedict wrote: »

Rather than continuing to make silly comments, what would be really useful now would be if M84 were to focus on explaining exactly how she thinks IW can assess the usage of non-metered homes. She is the only person in Ireland (apart from her plumber) who knows how it can be done - it so cruel of her that she still refuses to share the secret with us.

Who I have a feeling may be her husband.

If so then it appears to be a family secret.

People can be very reluctant to share those because they feel in general that such secrets may shame them.

K.Flyer · 29-11-2019 1:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And....who comes out when it wasn’t the council? The water fairy?

Usually nobody until you hound them with phone calls, then you might get someone in a van with I.W. livery but they will usually look and then fook off and get the council lads out.
90% of site respondents to my calls are council operatives.
The other 10% may as well be "water fairies" for all the good they do.
And this is from my own personal interaction with I.W. on a regular enough basis, apart from my own connections within their organisation.

charlie14 · 29-11-2019 1:58pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Good point, Maria did apologise and Murphy didn't. That certainly puts her above him in the ranks of decent people, though they are both probably in the last decile.

Last I checked she has the same status as Murphy - hasn't been convicted of a crime - but Murphy gets a free pass on these boards, while she doesn't. The same free pass is given to the likes of Gerry Adams if anyone dares suggest he was a member of the IRA.

That isn't an opinion defending Maria by the way, it is merely observational facts about the behaviour of posters on these threads. Different standards applied depending on their political perspective.

Despite some people having an ego so big that they think I follow them around on boards, I only point out the most hypocritical posts.

I know when asked before about your credibility in the eyes of other posters you more or less said you didn`t care, but surely even you must realise that this running to the defense of anything questionable relating to Fine Gael is becoming more ridiculous.

Bailey withdrew her claim after she was caught out making a fraudulent claim for compensation, so really had no option other than apologise if she hoped to remain a T.D.

Murphy on the other hand was found not guilty by a jury where is anyone should have apologised it was the state for over reaching on a charge that stank off political interference, and where they were extremely fortunate Murphy did not refer the case to GSOC.

With your earlier post on Fine Gael`s "arguing tenuously" on the Water Framework Directive with the E.U. being the reason we do not have those millions of euros daily fines you so trenchantly informed us all in the past were imminent if we didn`t comply with the original Fine Gael quota regime, the irony of hypocritical posts is obviously lost on you.

blanch152 · 29-11-2019 3:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And....who comes out when it wasn’t the council? The water fairy?

It is like people don't read implementation plans or annual reports and base their views on what they read on Facebook and the like.

The migration of staff from the local authorities to Irish Water was always going to take years, it has also run into industrial relations difficulties which have delayed it further.

Benedict · 29-11-2019 4:02pm

Again from IW official site:

"Q, When did you start to measure customer usage?

A. We are continuously monitoring water usage to allow us identify leaks. Data is collected from metered households quarterly and district meters are used to identify excess usage in unmetered areas."

This still doesn't get us any closer to discovering precisely how they are going to determine exactly how much water Mr & Mrs Blogs in No 158 have used?

It sounds good - but it means nothing!

Plumbthedepths · 29-11-2019 4:21pm

Benedict wrote: »

Again from IW official site:

"Q, When did you start to measure customer usage?

A. We are continuously monitoring water usage to allow us identify leaks. Data is collected from metered households quarterly and district meters are used to identify excess usage in unmetered areas."

This still doesn't get us any closer to discovering precisely how they are going to determine exactly how much water Mr & Mrs Blogs in No 158 have used?

It sounds good - but it means nothing!

Simply put IW cannot measure the individual usage of a household without the aid of a meter. Any claim to the contrary by posters here and IW is bullsh*t.

blanch152 · 29-11-2019 4:34pm

charlie14 wrote: »

I know when asked before about your credibility in the eyes of other posters you more or less said you didn`t care, but surely even you must realise that this running to the defense of anything questionable relating to Fine Gael is becoming more ridiculous.

Bailey withdrew her claim after she was caught out making a fraudulent claim for compensation, so really had no option other than apologise if she hoped to remain a T.D.

Murphy on the other hand was found not guilty by a jury where is anyone should have apologised it was the state for over reaching on a charge that stank off political interference, and where they were extremely fortunate Murphy did not refer the case to GSOC.

With your earlier post on Fine Gael`s "arguing tenuously" on the Water Framework Directive with the E.U. being the reason we do not have those millions of euros daily fines you so trenchantly informed us all in the past were imminent if we didn`t comply with the original Fine Gael quota regime, the irony of hypocritical posts is obviously lost on you.

I really don't think putting Maria Bailey more or less alongside Paul Murphy in the bottom decile of decent people can be construed as defending FG. It tells you everything I think of both of them.

However, as I have explained multiple times, politics isn't about personality, it is about policy.

McMurphy · 29-11-2019 5:01pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Good point, Maria did apologise and Murphy didn't. That certainly puts her above him in the ranks of decent people, though they are both probably in the last decile.

Last I checked she has the same status as Murphy - hasn't been convicted of a crime - but Murphy gets a free pass on these boards, while she doesn't. The same free pass is given to the likes of Gerry Adams if anyone dares suggest he was a member of the IRA.

That isn't an opinion defending Maria by the way, it is merely observational facts about the behaviour of posters on these threads. Different standards applied depending on their political perspective.

Despite some people having an ego so big that they think I follow them around on boards, I only point out the most hypocritical posts.

You're just being a little rascal now, trying to stir the **** you wee rascal lol.

Bailey got caught out trying to pull a fast one, she apologised.

The guards got caught out trying to frame Murphy for a crime he didn't commit, and Murphy didn't apologise .

Bit of a difference.

As for putting Murphy with the lower classes of society, just FYI, that's a label I apply to compo chasers and fraudsters.

Gerry Adams and the RA got a mention too I see, full house blanch, whatabout bingo.

blanch152 · 29-11-2019 5:19pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You're just being a little rascal now, trying to stir the **** you wee rascal lol.

Bailey got caught out trying to pull a fast one, she apologised.

The guards got caught out trying to frame Murphy for a crime he didn't commit, and Murphy didn't apologise.

As for putting Murphy with the lower classes of society, just FYI, that's a label I apply to compo chasers.

Bit of a difference.

Gerry Adams and the RA got a mention too I see, full house blanch, whatabout bingo.

I think foghorn protestors and terrorist leaders probably deserve to be down in that bottom decile of decent people as well, but each to their own opinion I suppose.

charlie14 · 29-11-2019 6:00pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I really don't think putting Maria Bailey more or less alongside Paul Murphy in the bottom decile of decent people can be construed as defending FG. It tells you everything I think of both of them.

However, as I have explained multiple times, politics isn't about personality, it is about policy.

No point in me repeating Johnny Dogs post as it covers my own thoughts on your post. Simply disingenuous.

If you are adhering to politics is about policy then it is getting increasingly difficult to see any difference between your politics and Fine Gael policy.

In fact I felt the mask slipped somewhat in your post on who did and did not apologies where Maria Bailey was referred to as Maria, whereas Paul Murphy was just Murphy.

blanch152 · 29-11-2019 6:03pm

charlie14 wrote: »

No point in me repeating Johnny Dogs post as it covers my own thoughts on your post. Simply disingenuous.

If you are adhering to politics is about policy then it is getting increasingly difficult to see any difference between your politics and Fine Gael policy.

In fact I felt the mask slipped somewhat in your post on who did and did not apologies where Maria Bailey was referred to as Maria, whereas Paul Murphy was just Murphy.

Well, thank you, normally people analyse which posts I thank, analysing my grammatical use takes us to a new level.

charlie14 · 29-11-2019 7:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, thank you, normally people analyse which posts I thank, analysing my grammatical use takes us to a new level.

You contradict yourself so often, at times even in the same post, that even if I could be bothered, any analysis would be a waste of time.

Neither was I commenting on your grammar.
I just found it amusing with your interested in politics being policy rather than personalities, how the mask slipped with Maria Bailey being Maria whereas Paul Murphy was just Murphy.

Benedict · 30-11-2019 10:38am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Simply put IW cannot measure the individual usage of a household without the aid of a meter. Any claim to the contrary by posters here and IW is bullsh*t.

Absolutely correct.

This thread has clearly demonstrated that the current IW plan is fatally flawed - and if IW is following (and if they're not, then they should be) they should be grateful because there's a saying in business which is "best to fail quickly". Best not to waste any more time/money, shred it now and move to a new plan.

No matter how much woffle they chuck at us, we know full well that the quota & penalties will never ever apply to the unmetered half of the country and this means that the plan can never work.

So shred it now and move on.

Shamboo1801 · 30-11-2019 1:04pm

Benedict wrote:

This thread has clearly demonstrated that the current IW plan is fatally flawed - and if IW is following (and if they're not, then they should be) they should be grateful because there's a saying in business which is "best to fail quickly". Best not to waste any more time/money, shred it now and move to a new plan.

Problem is, I don't think the egos of these people will allow them to scrap it and start again. Like the children's hospital and NBP, they convince themselves of superior intelligence, even on the advice of others, and just continue with their failed ventures. Sure it's our money they're wasting, why would it bother them.

Benedict · 30-11-2019 2:41pm

Shamboo1801 wrote: »

Problem is, I don't think the egos of these people will allow them to scrap it and start again. Like the children's hospital and NBP, they convince themselves of superior intelligence, even on the advice of others, and just continue with their failed ventures. Sure it's our money they're wasting, why would it bother them.

That could be why they have said they won't send out bills until Jan 2021 at the earliest - because if they sent them out now, the reaction would cause a crisis.

charlie14 · 30-11-2019 7:46pm

Benedict wrote: »

That could be why they have said they won't send out bills until Jan 2021 at the earliest - because if they sent them out now, the reaction would cause a crisis.

Even if they had the means to do it, they have no interest in collecting small pennies from households using over their allocation. Oct 2020 or Jan 2021 are significant in that prior to both dates we will have a General Election.

The market ideology behind this water charges fiasco is from the conservative right wing playbook which is part and parcel of Fine Gael DNA. Regardless of how it has failed in other countries we have only to look closer to home at not just this fiasco but the National Children Hospital and the National Broadband Plan to see how it has worked here.

So do not be fooled that this is just about exceeding water allocations. This has been a constant drip drip of headlines going from not enough water too to much water too now the latest on allocations.
The aim is should Fine Gael get a majority in the General Election household metering (minus apartments even if they make noise on it) will be back on the agenda based on "expert reports" that the taxpayer will pay more untold millions on to state whatever Fine Gael want them to state, giving them a shield to hide behind even when it makes no financial sense.

If anybody doubt this, then they have, just on it`s own, only to look at the shenanigans of the Public Broadband plan where Fine Gael totally ignored the advice of their own Departments in favour of "expert reports" . Especially the KPMG report costing 11M.

blanch152 · 30-11-2019 11:30pm

charlie14 wrote: »

You contradict yourself so often, at times even in the same post, that even if I could be bothered, any analysis would be a waste of time.

Neither was I commenting on your grammar.
I just found it amusing with your interested in politics being policy rather than personalities, how the mask slipped with Maria Bailey being Maria whereas Paul Murphy was just Murphy.

I call Gerry Adams, Gerry, so does that mean I like him as much as Maria. I call Leo, Varadkar, so does that mean I rate him as highly as Murphy.

Benedict · 01-12-2019 9:33am

charlie14 wrote: »

Even if they had the means to do it, they have no interest in collecting small pennies from households using over their allocation. Oct 2020 or Jan 2021 are significant in that prior to both dates we will have a General Election.

The market ideology behind this water charges fiasco is from the conservative right wing playbook which is part and parcel of Fine Gael DNA. Regardless of how it has failed in other countries we have only to look closer to home at not just this fiasco but the National Children Hospital and the National Broadband Plan to see how it has worked here.

So do not be fooled that this is just about exceeding water allocations. This has been a constant drip drip of headlines going from not enough water too to much water too now the latest on allocations.
The aim is should Fine Gael get a majority in the General Election household metering (minus apartments even if they make noise on it) will be back on the agenda based on "expert reports" that the taxpayer will pay more untold millions on to state whatever Fine Gael want them to state, giving them a shield to hide behind even when it makes no financial sense.

If anybody doubt this, then they have, just on it`s own, only to look at the shenanigans of the Public Broadband plan where Fine Gael totally ignored the advice of their own Departments in favour of "expert reports" . Especially the KPMG report costing 11M.

Yes, it's true that governments can get away with crazy things - for example, if there were 2 beds side by side in a hospital ward, the patient with VHI would have to pay 10 time more than the public patient for the same treatment. What could be more farcical than that - but they did it!

The history of public unrest about IW charges would make this one difficult to push through. But beware you metered homes out there, weird things do happen.

Brendan Bendar · 01-12-2019 11:09am

Benedict wrote: »

Yes, it's true that governments can get away with crazy things - for example, if there were 2 beds side by side in a hospital ward, the patient with VHI would have to pay 10 time more than the public patient for the same treatment. What could be more farcical than that - but they did it!

The history of public unrest about IW charges would make this one difficult to push through. But beware you metered homes out there, weird things do happen.

Why should metered homes have any concerns as a matter of interest?

Middle Ireland will not be hoodwinked by any flim flam from any Govt.

A fair legal system for all or no system, it’s that simple.

There is No Way any metered home can legally be charged for water usage while others can use what ever amount they like.

It will be challenged ab initio and rejected.

Just won’t happen, make no mistake about that.

Even a Govt as inept and accident prone as this one, understands that, and if they don’t they soon will.

Water charges for excessive usage

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