DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

topcatcbr · 15-02-2008 12:16pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

NO. NO. NO...... please be careful what information is supplied.

Bakerboy, you require a BER before you occupy the dwelling if, and only if, you APPLIED for planning permission after 1st January 2007.

Sorry I was being a little too general. however i was right in what i said. If someone gets planning before 1st of jan 07 i think it is safe to assume they did not apply for planning permission after the 1st of jan 07. for the same project anyway. I have no interest in getting into a pissing contest but was concerned with the severety of the rebuke on such a minor matter.
please do not take this reply as a personal attack as it is not meant as such. I was just trying to answer a genuine query without trying to get too specific and quoting paragraphs of text from regulations and EU Directives. This has been done before.

sydthebeat · 15-02-2008 5:02pm

sorry, it wasn't mean as neither a rebuke nor a personal attack. It was just a correction.

All this BER stuff is still in its infancy and all i was trying to do was to keep things as clear and simple as possible..... without having to quote SI's.

although what youve said is technically correct by default, it doesnt cover those who applied before 1st jan 2007 and were granted permission after.. those persons are do not need a BER legally.

bakerbhoys query is a common question among self builders and its in everyones interest to get the information and knowledge correct at this this point.

Irishsnake · 15-02-2008 11:24pm

Hi All
Im a QS working for a construction company and thinking of doing the course and was wondering if i can give a ber cert for houses the company i work for are building?

Also is it difficult to get the 70% pass rate wouldnt like to get company to pay for it and time off and end up failing

cheers lads in advance for any replys

sinnerboy · 15-02-2008 11:46pm

Irishsnake wrote: »

Hi All
Im a QS working for a construction company and thinking of doing the course and was wondering if i can give a ber cert for houses the company i work for are building?

Also is it difficult to get the 70% pass rate wouldnt like to get company to pay for it and time off and end up failing

cheers lads in advance for any replys

no , you have to independent to issue certs . but you could crunch numbers / calcs and predict ratings at early design stage .....

course is tough going . but so is QS work .. .. be prepared to put the head down you will be fine . i think QS is amongst the ideal set of candidates for the course actually . with your handle on costings together with the BER training it would place you in a uniquely good position to make intelligent informed assements of insulation/services permutations for your company . GO FOR IT

Irishsnake · 16-02-2008 3:54pm

Thanks for that sinnerboy, so i take it then that estate agents cant have their own employees training and issue certs for houses their are selling for their clients either

sinnerboy · 16-02-2008 4:11pm

Irishsnake wrote: »

Thanks for that sinnerboy, so i take it then that estate agents cant have their own employees training and issue certs for houses their are selling for their clients either

can't see how they can irishsnake. i imagine they will have to set up arrangements with agents "in the next town" and do each other properties

BERk8 · 18-02-2008 5:59pm

Hi there, I'm an administrator for a BER assessor in Munster, while calling estate agents in our area I came across one estate agent who told me that he was an assessor. I don't think that it can be an independent assessment if the assessor has a vested interest in achieving a good rating.

smashey · 18-02-2008 6:08pm

He'll still have to stand over the rating.

sinnerboy · 18-02-2008 6:09pm

snap

ardara1 · 18-02-2008 6:25pm

I've been told by an ait pressure tester that an insulation company is offering FREE BER certs AND air pressure testing with their material - can THAT be independent? - Can any one verify it?

sinnerboy · 18-02-2008 6:45pm

Don't think so . An m+e installer did the BER course with me . He was thinking of "throwing cert in" with his installations ........

A debate arose between me and the 3 other archies on the course as to whether we would be independent enough to cert our own ( or our employers ) designs for our clients . Our course tutor joined discussion . Consensus was that , yes we could .

SEI will be lucky to have enough assessors come new year anyway . Postie will probably do them on his rounds ( sorry that is TOO cynical - even for me )

sydthebeat · 22-02-2008 11:04am

Quick question.....

Im doing a BER on an 180sq m single storey dwelling.

The installation of a HRV system appears to actually increase the energy value by about 15kwh/m2/yr........ is this usual?? the assumption is that HRV systems dramatically increase the energy efficiency of a dwelling....
could there be some input im not including or have inputted incorrectly??

Mellor · 22-02-2008 11:06am

Are there varibles in volved with the HRV, or air tightness

sydthebeat · 22-02-2008 11:14am

No...

Ive inputted that no pressurisation test was carried out and im using default fan values....

I suspect its a result of the design and size of the dwelling.

sinnerboy · 22-02-2008 12:01pm

no of chimneys , flues etc ?

Or rule of thumb - air tightness factor of 5 a/c min for HRV - enter this as test result and see

sydthebeat · 22-02-2008 12:23pm

1 chimney, 1 open flue....
i have even tried it with no chimney and no open flues and only reduces the energy vlaue by 5 ... so still 10 kwhr/m2/yr over natural ventilation.

a figure of 5 air changes per hour is more than doubling the energy value.

DEAP recommends an input of 0.5 when no air test carried out... add this to infiltration due to openings, the defualt air change is 0.75 ac/hr

ardara1 · 22-02-2008 11:20pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Quick question.....

Im doing a BER on an 180sq m single storey dwelling.

The installation of a HRV system appears to actually increase the energy value by about 15kwh/m2/yr........ is this usual?? the assumption is that HRV systems dramatically increase the energy efficiency of a dwelling....
could there be some input im not including or have inputted incorrectly??

The energy used by the fan of the MVHR system uses more energy (Electric) than it recovers in your instance, it depends on volume, air tightness etc. - it doesn't always work that they are efficient - I had the same case on a BIG self build - just wouldn't work - remember you're only transfering already created heat into another area - depend n source and other area. MVHR does not generate heat.

sinnerboy · 23-02-2008 12:07am

its function is not simply to recover heat but also to reduce heat losses through ventilation i.e. to "protect" the internal heated climate from the external cold climate .

interesting that DEAP seems throw up scenarios to demonstrate that it's not worth installing.....

my instinct tells my something is not right with DEAP here

sydthebeat · 23-02-2008 11:08am

Thats exactly the situation....
The electrical loading turns out to be over 1kwh/yr.

My biggest dissapointment is the very small differences thrown up by air pressure test results.
No air tightness test input compared to 0.1 ac/h was practically negilable.

Its common sense to say that If a room has 1 ac/h, then no HRV has to heat that whole room once evey hour, whereas a HRV systems (at 66% efficiency) means the heating system has to heat the room every 3 hours.

If a boiler is outputting say, 20kw/hr to heat this room, doesnt it make that the 1kw/hr of electrical loading is hugely more energy efficient???
or am i missing somethign realy obvious?

ardara1 · 23-02-2008 1:53pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Thats exactly the situation....
The electrical loading turns out to be over 1kwh/yr.

My biggest dissapointment is the very small differences thrown up by air pressure test results.
No air tightness test input compared to 0.1 ac/h was practically negilable.

Its common sense to say that If a room has 1 ac/h, then no HRV has to heat that whole room once evey hour, whereas a HRV systems (at 66% efficiency) means the heating system has to heat the room every 3 hours.

If a boiler is outputting say, 20kw/hr to heat this room, doesnt it make that the 1kw/hr of electrical loading is hugely more energy efficient???
or am i missing somethign realy obvious?

Hi Syd - you mentioned the HRV system efficiency is 66%? - but the best performing MVHR product has an SFP of 0.94 and a heat exchanger efficiency of 77% - it should improve things.

Can you throw up yous list of outputs from the result table to let us see it?

sydthebeat · 23-02-2008 2:05pm

im altering inputs in order to improve efficiency.. so theres no particular manufacturers spec available, im using the default values.

i wont have the actual inputs till monday.

Mellor · 23-02-2008 4:30pm

I think the way you are looking at the heating and effiency is flawed.

Say two rooms, one with HRV and the other with natural wall vents.

Say each room is built to the same standard, and the natural vents result in the samr air changes per hour as the HRV (probably unlikely).

For the HRV to be worthwile, it has to recover more heat than it costs to run. This recovery is mechanical, so it doesn't affect the effiency of the HRV (which is the imput elec vrs the work done to pump the air)
As long as the HRV is recovering more heat per hour than it costs to run then it is a positive, are there vales in the DEAP for passive stack with heat recovery.

sinnerboy · 23-02-2008 4:58pm

disagree Mellor . I believe HRV also prevents heat loss by creating indirect contact between internal and external . It 's not only about recovering heat

sydthebeat · 23-02-2008 5:12pm

Mellor wrote: »

I think the way you are looking at the heating and effiency is flawed.

Say two rooms, one with HRV and the other with natural wall vents.

Say each room is built to the same standard, and the natural vents result in the samr air changes per hour as the HRV (probably unlikely).

For the HRV to be worthwile, it has to recover more heat than it costs to run. This recovery is mechanical, so it doesn't affect the effiency of the HRV (which is the imput elec vrs the work done to pump the air)
As long as the HRV is recovering more heat per hour than it costs to run then it is a positive, are there vales in the DEAP for passive stack with heat recovery.

To take your example, and again assume a 1 ac/hr.
hour 1: room 1 takes 100% to heat, room 2 take 100% to heat
hour 2: room 1 takes 100% to heat, room two takes 33% to heat plus running energy of 1 hr.
hour 3: room 1 take 100% to heat, room 2 take 33% to heat plus running energy of 1 hr

and so on, and so on..... (pro rata to the whole dwelling)
therefore if running energy of HRV is less than 66% running energy of heating system, its efficient... i would argue that a HRV system is less than 5% running energy of a heating system (possible a lot better as well.. )

but DEAP doesnt reflect these efficiencies for some reason.

plus you have to remember that in these examples we've assumed a similar air infiltration rate, whereas in reality there should be a huge difference if you are installing a HRV system. The air change rate is the same, remember.

smashey · 23-02-2008 5:16pm

Hey Syd,

It's Saturday.

Take the day off and relax.

sydthebeat · 23-02-2008 5:28pm

smashey wrote: »

Hey Syd,

It's Saturday.

Take the day off and relax.

the wales Italy game is boring the pants off me....

you wont hear from me from 5.00 onwards

Mellor · 23-02-2008 5:48pm

I have a few quid on to keep it interesting, if ireland win both halves i'm laughing.

As for the HRV above, thats good way to describe it,
I was trying to point out that electrical effiency of the unit doesn't actually matter as its indirect.

muffler · 24-02-2008 9:18pm

Mellor wrote: »

I have a few quid on to keep it interesting, if ireland win both halves i'm laughing.

You read the small print on the contract when you became a mod didnt you. Just in case you missed it said that all winnings must be shared equally between the forum mods

gsxr1 · 27-02-2008 11:01pm

I have been thinking of studying for this exam.

I like my job but don't intend to be swinging a hammer till im sixty.

Would becoming a BER assessor be a worth while career change financial.

Or would it really be a nixer

I have a feeling there will be a lot more tradesmen trying for this now as the work situation has tightened up lately.

The home bond seminar is what caught my interest in it, While my work mates where falling asleep listening I was wide awake and very interested in the subject.

sydthebeat · 27-02-2008 11:53pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

I have been thinking of studying for this exam.

I like my job but don't intend to be swinging a hammer till im sixty.

Would becoming a BER assessor be a worth while career change financial.

Or would it really be a nixer

I have a feeling there will be a lot more tradesmen trying for this now as the work situation has tightened up lately.

The home bond seminar is what caught my interest in it, While my work mates where falling asleep listening I was wide awake and very interested in the subject.

it wouldnt be a nixer as you would/should have to have PI insurance behind you.

BER assessments will mostly be done by the inspecting / certifying engineer / architect on new houses from July onwards.
The market you could possibly aim at would be the 'existing housing stock' market at point of sale or rent.

the costs you are talking about covering are €2000 plus for the course, €1000 registering fee, €25 for each BER applied....

DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

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