Closing Schools - What about working parents !!!

skallywag · 12-03-2020 5:43pm

I think a large issue at play here is that the normal 'leave the kids with granny and grandad' option, which is open to a lot of folk, cannot be used this time.

Toastytoes · 12-03-2020 5:43pm

P2C wrote: »

You are not a charity. Just do not pay. How do you intend to pay for your essentials if you are not paid. They are a business and some are quite manipulative in trying to force parents hands. There is no chance schools will be back before the 29th of March. Maybe after Easter. The government will have to bail out business and not the individuals

Our crèche is quoting the force majeure, I’d assume they’re all going to do the same

skallywag · 12-03-2020 5:45pm

P2C wrote: »

There is no chance schools will be back before the 29th of March. Maybe after Easter. The government will have to bail out business and not the individuals

I know it is hard to estimate a timeline, but I see no way whatsoever that schools will be back so soon.

I think the best thing to do is take a look to Italy, we are just a few weeks behind them.

iamwhoiam · 12-03-2020 6:06pm

skallywag wrote: »

I think a large issue at play here is that the normal 'leave the kids with granny and grandad' option, which is open to a lot of folk, cannot be used this time.

We mind our grandchildren 3 days a week
They have been here all week . We will continue minding them as we all have no choice to be honest . I can’t think of any other solution and if they have it then its already too late . If they don’t have it already then I guess not being in school is at least a chance they won’t get it

12-03-2020 6:12pm

Noddy Nangle wrote: »

It’s all well and fine for teachers and the public sector but what about the Joe soaps with a regular job in the private sector. To say I’m worried is an understatement !!!

Not really. I still have to go to work but my kids are at home. I wont get paid if I take 2 months off either and I run the risk of taking 19 home with me as I stand a good chance of interacting with an infected person before you do.

So, how are we different? How is this any worse for you than I?

skallywag · 12-03-2020 6:13pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

We mind our grandchildren 3 days a week
They have been here all week . We will continue minding them as we all have no choice to be honest . I can’t think of any other solution and if they have it then its already too late . If they don’t have it already then I guess not being in school is at least a chance they won’t get it

Very valid point, and I am in a similar situation myself.

As much as it hurts I think I am going to take the hit and stay at home to look after my kids, rather than the usual sending them up the road to the grandparents. I know that is not feasible for all though.

12-03-2020 6:13pm

Toastytoes wrote: »

Our crèche is quoting the force majeure, I’d assume they’re all going to do the same

That's 3 days for family emergencies only.

You could take it, this would qualify but it's still only 3 days

12-03-2020 6:16pm

Jim Root wrote: »

you will still get paid. what about freelance workers? zero contract hour workers?

What about them? You want the terms and conditions of public sector employment, non the public sector!

The civil service, Dublin fire brigade and Gardai have all had recruitment drive within the past 2 years. Why didn't you apply?

As for freelance, they make direct profits from their work, not an annual salary. That's the path they chose.

Why is it people want their perks and conditions but begrudge mine?

TheBoyConor · 12-03-2020 6:18pm

cannotlogin wrote: »

All of the following are possible options:-

teachers,
older secondary school students,
third level students,
rota between parents - 3 families together so that each parent can work 4 out of 5 days
workers from the hospitality/retail sector who will have reduced hours
People who work freelance or self employed who have reduced bookings/hours

do you have any friends/family in those area?

It's far from ideal but it's a worldwide risk at the moment so it calls for finding creative solutions. Those who have to go to work do, those who don't should support others etc

Not possible. Anyone who would be minding the children would have to be garda vetted otherwise there could be doubt if there were to be suggestions of allegations by a child or a parent with a grudge.

The other problem is liability. If a child gets hurt somehow then whoever is supervising will be held liable. Again, could be a child or parent with a grudge or a score to settle.

12-03-2020 6:20pm

khaldrogo wrote: »

While getting paid and while looking after their own kids in their own house and not having to scramble to find alternate child care like the rest of us. My heart bleeds for them...

But yet they are expected to bleed for the private sector.

I don't know about all you, but when I was in school I knew teachers got paid during the summer, I knew they got paid during holidays. None of this was a secret. I could have studied harder and become a teacher but I CHOSE a different path. You chose your path and they chose theirs. Do you see teachers complaining about reduced mortgages for bank staff? Profit sharing and Christmas bonuses in corporate offices? No, because they are perks of that industry and that's that.

12-03-2020 6:22pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Not possible. Anyone who would be minding the children would have to be garda vetted otherwise there could be doubt if there were to be suggestions of allegations by a child or a parent with a grudge.

The other problem is liability. If a child gets hurt somehow then whoever is supervising will be held liable. Again, could be a child or parent with a grudge or a score to settle.

So if someone is vetted they are automatically believed in the event of a complaint? That's not true.

You also don't require vetting to mind your friends kids ffs!

TheBoyConor · 12-03-2020 6:26pm

If it is being done on some sort of organised co-ordinated basis, it would require Garda vetting.
It is not acceptable for unrelated people without vetting to have access to children.

And the liability issue is HUGE. You could end up sued if a child falls.

worker bee · 12-03-2020 6:26pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

School is not a babysitter!

... and no childcare.

We don't treat school as a 'babysitter'. We value our children's education very much but we also have arranged our working lives around their school hours as much as possible so we can be home when they are so we can see them etc.

no childcare? What's our childminder supposed to live on if we're not paying her?

GreeBo · 12-03-2020 6:27pm

killbillvol2 wrote: »

My problem is, and I'm out after this, that a group of health professionals allegedly sat in a room and stated that cases would double every two days without doing the maths past about day 3.

Why would the maths change after day 3?

They reckon an infected person typically infects >2 other people, why would this stop after the 3rd day? Even God kept going for 6 days.

TheBoyConor · 12-03-2020 6:29pm

because after the third day the numbers don;t bear thinking about. I can hear ambulances outside my window right now.

TheBoyConor · 12-03-2020 6:32pm

spurious wrote: »

The 'myth' being referred to was not whether teachers would still be paid (and why shouldn't they since they will be working?), but whether or not teachers can be sacked. There is a large number of people out there think teachers can't be sacked. They are wrong.

Please people, read the posts you are replying to.

Give me an example where a teacher was sacked for something that wasn't an extreme circumstance, like assault or sexual assault?
Come back to me when you find any example of any public servant who was ever sacked for anything bar that.

byhookorbycrook · 12-03-2020 6:46pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

My children in junior and senior infants are not very tech savvy.
How will their teachers follow the timetable and engage with students of this age?

They won’t follow a timetable . In our school we prepared work with the children , the children have a mixture of books , work sheets and some online bits ready to go .

12-03-2020 6:51pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

because after the third day the numbers don;t bear thinking about. I can hear ambulances outside my window right now.

Day 1 - two people
Day 2 - four people
Day 3 - eight people

"After the third day" = 16 people or so? Sure, we're already past that......what are you smoking?

TheBoyConor · 12-03-2020 6:52pm

Obviously schools are bound to follow instructions issued by the department of education, but as for private enterprises like creches, does there government have any legal basis to compel them to close their doors?
Like, unless there is some law which gives the government that power, then really it is just a request and a creche decides that they will stay open, can the government really do anythign about it?

I am thinking that if they are compelled to close by law, then could the creches come after the government afterwards with a claim for the enforced loss of revenue by being forced to close?

12-03-2020 7:03pm

Jim Root wrote: »

creches can't survive on air alone, it's not their fault they have to close, staff still need to be paid. there might not be a creche left by April if they don't get their fees.

As far as I was told, at least some of the staff didnt get paid where my child goes to afterschool care and as its at the school I will be questioning if they have to pay rental as thats what they told me the last time there was a closure. I wont be paying in April if I dont get some kind of a refund as they dont need the full fees for a complete non attendance. I was told its unexpected but it this is far from unexpected, had the Govt copped on and done this 2 weeks earlier I would not have paid for the coming month.
As far as I can tell, the business in question appears reluctant to have parents deal with each other. I was told no other parent complained, when I raised the query, suggesting I am an isolated nark, and everyone else is sympathetic and unconcerned.

khaldrogo wrote: »

I understand that but at the same time, if i'm not being paid if my job shuts down over this how can I afford to pay them???

I already pay them when they close at xmas etc......paying them for nothing is starting to grate on me.

I don't care what anyone says, the creches are rolling in it. They need to be made to cover their own costs when they are closed by choice around xmas etc.

Exactly, the Govt needs to step in and ensure that costs/fees are refunded for this, this has been coming down the line for sometime, cant just suck up the costs and move on. I would not be expected to pay any service if it cannot be provided, nor could I charge for something and do nothing for it in return. I understand there will be some costs, but I find it hard to belive that many in childcare are getting paid for when they are not there, Id be more inclined to be ok with some payments if I knew that for sure but I think its highly unlikely.

Toastytoes wrote: »

Our crèche is quoting the force majeure, I’d assume they’re all going to do the same

Force majuere is for employee circumstances, nothing to do with a creche taking payment for no service, its a bloody joke IMO,

Toastytoes · 12-03-2020 7:28pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

That's 3 days for family emergencies only.

You could take it, this would qualify but it's still only 3 days

The crèche are referring to contractual force majeure not the employee one. Means they can close but still charge fees.

kerryjack · 12-03-2020 7:30pm

A double child benefit payment next month would be a great help, I see the EU are pumping billions in to the banks and they are supposed to dish it out; what help is that for working families.

Toastytoes · 12-03-2020 7:31pm

Contractual force majuere is a completely different thing the the employee version.

1874 wrote: »

As far as I was told, at least some of the staff didnt get paid where my child goes to afterschool care and as its at the school I will be questioning if they have to pay rental as thats what they told me the last time there was a closure. I wont be paying in April if I dont get some kind of a refund as they dont need the full fees for a complete non attendance. I was told its unexpected but it this is far from unexpected, had the Govt copped on and done this 2 weeks earlier I would not have paid for the coming month.
As far as I can tell, the business in question appears reluctant to have parents deal with each other. I was told no other parent complained, when I raised the query, suggesting I am an isolated nark, and everyone else is sympathetic and unconcerned.

Exactly, the Govt needs to step in and ensure that costs/fees are refunded for this, this has been coming down the line for sometime, cant just suck up the costs and move on. I would not be expected to pay any service if it cannot be provided, nor could I charge for something and do nothing for it in return. I understand there will be some costs, but I find it hard to belive that many in childcare are getting paid for when they are not there, Id be more inclined to be ok with some payments if I knew that for sure but I think its highly unlikely.

Force majuere is for employee circumstances, nothing to do with a creche taking payment for no service, its a bloody joke IMO,

Antares35 · 12-03-2020 9:02pm

I dont have kids yet though there is one cooking. I get that creches need to stay afloat but how can they justify charging full fees when they wont need a full cohort of staff?

salmocab · 12-03-2020 9:04pm

Antares35 wrote: »

I dont have kids yet though there is one cooking. I get that creches need to stay afloat but hoe can they justify charging full fees when they wont need a full cohort of staff?

If the staff are being paid the only cost savings being shut are heating, lighting, food.

Antares35 · 12-03-2020 9:07pm

salmocab wrote: »

If the staff are being paid the only cost savings being shut are heating, lighting, food.

I guess. Seems odd that they are being paid when they wont be doing anything. Its not like they will be working from home. Also wouldnt be fair to stop paying staff either. Its a tough one but i dont think parents should have to foot the bill on this one.

salmocab · 12-03-2020 9:28pm

Antares35 wrote: »

I guess. Seems odd that they are being paid when they wont be doing anything. Its not like they will be working from home. Also wouldnt be fair to stop paying staff either. Its a tough one but i dont think parents should have to foot the bill on this one.

No but nor should the staff

Princess Calla · 12-03-2020 9:45pm

salmocab wrote: »

No but nor should the staff

The government should be reimbursing the creche, who should in turn reimburse the parents.

Though by the time that gets sorted the kids will be in college!

Treppen · 12-03-2020 10:08pm

Princess Calla wrote: »

The government should be reimbursing the creche, who should in turn reimburse the parents.

Though by the time that gets sorted the kids will be in college!

I'd go the opposite way.
Everyone get paid so everyone can get paid.
I'm happy to keep paying the childcare once i know the staff will be fully paid (as they are willing to work). Only fair if I keep getting paid too though!

Sleeper12 · 12-03-2020 10:15pm

TheBoyConor wrote:

Obviously schools are bound to follow instructions issued by the department of education, but as for private enterprises like creches, does there government have any legal basis to compel them to close their doors? Like, unless there is some law which gives the government that power, then really it is just a request and a creche decides that they will stay open, can the government really do anythign about it?

Every gig in the county has been cancelled on Leo's say so. From the Three arena holding 15000 to small venues.

Do you suppose these venues & likewise crÃ¨ches will have functioning insurance if they open against a government warning /order?

Toastytoes · 12-03-2020 10:24pm

salmocab wrote: »

If the staff are being paid the only cost savings being shut are heating, lighting, food.

This saving wouldn’t be negligible tho, our child gets breakfast, a hot lunch and snacks at crèche which they now won’t need to provide for the next two weeks. They are also saving in lighting and heating the building, on laundry as no babies napping and no cooking and the cost associated with that. They will actually see a reduction in their outgoings while us parents have paid for the full month are now having to take unpaid leave to mind their kids.

I don’t have a major issue with still having to pay fees but they could meet us some of the way and knock something off for the reductions they are going to see in their outgoing this month. There’s not much good will being shown by them knowing full well the situation the parents are in. Today is the first I ever heard of their force majeure policy, it’s not mentioned on their website and not displayed anywhere for parent’s information.

denis160 · 12-03-2020 10:30pm

Treppen wrote: »

Dunno why people are saying teachers are off.

For us to be paid we have to be online and follow the timetable and engage with the students (even with my own kids running around).

I'm not saying 'boo-hoo' poor-me I'm just saying to those teacher bashers that work still continues.

Sorry for not being your babysitter at this time.

In our house, kids in secondary will have online work, but primary won’t.

jaxxx · 12-03-2020 10:36pm

One would think children's health would come first where priorities are concerned.. .. ..

Weffer · 12-03-2020 10:39pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

It might not be a good idea to use grandparents in my opinion.

Never mentioned grandparents, figured that was common sense especially with the UK putting elderly on lock down, but families consist of many members, cousins, siblings, sisters in law, brothers in law, step brothers, step sisters etc etc

byhookorbycrook · 12-03-2020 11:14pm

Treppen wrote: »

I'd go the opposite way.
Everyone get paid so everyone can get paid.
I'm happy to keep paying the childcare once i know the staff will be fully paid (as they are willing to work). Only fair if I keep getting paid too though!

denis160 wrote: »

In our house, kids in secondary will have online work, but primary won’t.

So the primary children didn’t get any work to do at all? Most unusual, I’d say . We had less than 4 hours to sort some work today and all classes got a list to complete.

Princess Calla · 12-03-2020 11:19pm

Treppen wrote: »

I'd go the opposite way.
Everyone get paid so everyone can get paid.
I'm happy to keep paying the childcare once i know the staff will be fully paid (as they are willing to work). Only fair if I keep getting paid too though!

Yeah but will parents who have to stay at home get paid?

Will parents who have to pay someone else to mind their kids, have to pay double... Crèche and minder...

There's a whole lot of what ifs.

AulWan · 12-03-2020 11:20pm

The State is going to have to come up with some kind of emergency relief package, and will probably have to pass emergency legislation to deal with forcing business to close and paying workers, etc.

Right now, the first priority is the efforts to slow down the spread of the infection. The rest can all be dealt with later.

But I think any parent whose children are in creche should plan for the creches to be closed for longer then the initial 2 weeks announced. People who are in contact with an infected person today, will only start showing symptoms in two weeks, and if everything reopens, we'd be right back where we started.

This could put a lot of creches out of business. But I can't see an alternative to closure.

I do feel sorry for parent's stuck without childcare. Its a very worrying situation.

iamwhoiam · 12-03-2020 11:21pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So the primary children didn’t get any work to do at all? Most unusual, I’d say . We had less than 4 hours to sort some work today and all classes got a list to complete.

Well done . My daughter got an e mail from the childs teacher with a list of her planned work for next week and helpful websites etc
She will be e mailing work for the kids and parents can mail her during school hours
( senior infants )

shane. · 13-03-2020 12:10am

Jim Root wrote: »

creches can't survive on air alone, it's not their fault they have to close, staff still need to be paid. there might not be a creche left by April if they don't get their fees.

The government have forced these closures, there should be some sort of emergency package set up to compensate crèches, parents cannot be expected to continue paying whilst most likely having to take unpaid leave from work as well, if my business closes I won’t be paid.

TheBoyConor · 13-03-2020 12:20am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Every gig in the county has been cancelled on Leo's say so. From the Three arena holding 15000 to small venues.

Do you suppose these venues & likewise crÃ¨ches will have functioning insurance if they open against a government warning /order?

Yes I do, unless the policy contains a condition that states that insurance does not cover activities done in defiance of a government recommendation.

What I'm saying is that unless the government or their departments have explicit legal powers to prohibit events or activists or work, then it is just a request that carries no legal compulsion and cannot be enforced. A company or body could decide to give that advice the 2 fingers and go ahead and do their thing in defiance of the advice. And there would be nothing that anyone could do about it.

Any enforcement action needs to have a solid legal basis along with explicitly defined powers of enforcement.

STB. · 13-03-2020 12:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

Day 1 - two people
Day 2 - four people
Day 3 - eight people

"After the third day" = 16 people or so? Sure, we're already past that......what are you smoking?

Be prepared to become very depressed.

Italy over 4 weeks.

Feb 19 - 3 Cases
Feb 20 - 4 Cases
Feb 21 - 21 Cases (1 Dead)
Feb 22 - 79 Cases (2 Dead)
Feb 23 - 157 Cases (3 Dead)
Feb 24 - 229 Cases (7 dead)
Feb 25 - 323 Cases (11 Dead)
Feb 26 - 477 Cases (12 Dead)
Feb 27 - 655 Cases (17 Dead)
Feb 28 - 889 Cases (21 Dead)
Feb 29 - 1128 Cases (29 Dead)
Mar 1 - 1701 Cases (41 Dead)
Mar 2 - 2036 Cases (52 Dead)
Mar 3 - 2502 Cases (79 Dead)
Mar 4 - 3089 Cases (107 Dead)
Mar 5 - 3858 Cases (148 Dead)
Mar 6 - 4636 Cases (197 Dead)
Mar 7 - 5883 Cases (233 Dead)
Mar 8 - 7375 Cases (366 Dead)
Mar 9 - 9172 Cases (463 Dead)
Mar 10 -10149 Cases (631 Dead)
Mar 11 -12462 Cases (827 Dead)
Mar 12 - 15113 Cases (1016 Dead)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

AulWan · 13-03-2020 12:27am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Yes I do, unless the policy contains a condition that states that insurance does not cover activities done in defiance of a government recommendation.

What I'm saying is that unless the government or their departments have explicit legal powers to prohibit events or activists or work, then it is just a request that carries no legal compulsion and cannot be enforced. A company or body could decide to give that advice the 2 fingers and go ahead and do their thing in defiance of the advice. And there would be nothing that anyone could do about it.

Any enforcement action needs to have a solid legal basis along with explicitly defined powers of enforcement.

Oh, I think you'll find it could be enforced. Any threat to the greater public health in the midst of a pandemic, and I've no doubt they'd send the army in.

I wouldn't fancy sitting in a jail cell for sticking up my two fingers.

Edit: Government and Garda can use extreme powers to control Covid-19

TheBoyConor · 13-03-2020 12:36am

So there is tangible legal powers of enforcement.

Great. Thank you for that.

I'd like to see some of it being enforced.

Ireland is not used to our inclined to this type of authoritarian approach that is hinted at in the regulations though.
I'd say authorities would be terrified to actually try enforce any of the harsher measures for fear of being challenged, taken to court and being found to have been excessive or non reasonable and then sued for all sorts like illegal arrest, unlawful detention etc etc and being stung for millions in compo.
We must remember that these days everyone is woke and very easily triggered.

I'd say it'll be a very mild and measured enforcement of at all. They will depend mostly on voluntary compliance in all but the most extreme of cases.

AulWan · 13-03-2020 12:38am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

So there is tangible legal powers of enforcement.

Great. Thank you for that.

I'd like to see some of it being enforced.

Hopefully it won't come to that. But I've no doubt if they need to use these powers, they would.

AulWan · 13-03-2020 12:46am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Ireland is not used to our inclined to this type of authoritarian approach that is hinted at in the regulations though.
I'd say authorities would be terrified to actually try enforce any of the harsher measures for fear of being challenged, taken to court and being found to have been excessive or non reasonable and then sued for all sorts like illegal arrest, unlawful detention etc etc and being stung for millions in compo.
We must remember that these days everyone is woke and very easily triggered.

I'd say it'll be a very mild and measured enforcement of at all. They will depend mostly on voluntary compliance in all but the most extreme of cases.

You edited after I replied.

I think you're underestimating the authorities here.

Nobody thought they'd shut the schools down, either, but they did.

Covid-19 is not really something they can send someone around to have a chat about.

TheBoyConor · 13-03-2020 1:04am

I'd have my doubts about that. Irish authorities are very soft. Across the board from the courts, to the local authorities, to EPA enforcement. Our way of doing things is just softly softly and those chancer types who give the finger to the law tend to get away with it more often than not. Fly tippers, illegal waste, travelers, you name it.

Ireland just doesn't have the same appetite or tolerance for no nonsense enforcement like tougher EU states like Poland or France. Poland in particular is very much a no-bullshít society.

Bullocks · 13-03-2020 8:18am

Our 8 yr old was up at 6:30 with his 3 books open on the table. He intends to finish the lot of his homework today so he can chill for the rest of this pandemic without doing a page a day!
14 yr old is a whole other kettle of fish, still snoring and will be a job to get him doing much school work

Sleeper12 · 13-03-2020 8:38am

TheBoyConor wrote:

Yes I do, unless the policy contains a condition that states that insurance does not cover activities done in defiance of a government recommendation.

Don't you suppose that there is a clause about health and safety issues? Don't insurance policies have clauses about national emergencies?

I'm pretty certain HIQA have the right to order a creche to close.

Antares35 · 13-03-2020 12:50pm

salmocab wrote: »

No but nor should the staff

That's kind of what I said

Rufeo · 13-03-2020 4:25pm

Can he muscle in his parents to look after them for a few weeks?

Closing Schools - What about working parents !!!

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