Opt-Out Organ Donation

Sound Bite · 04-01-2017 2:00am

I always try to see things from the opposite side of my own view point but this is one where I absolutely struggle.

I have not heard any logical rationale reason not to donate your organs when you are dead. It's not like you are going to need them and it gives someone else the opportunity to have a better quality of life than they would have otherwise.

I would also consider it highly selfish and hypocritical to think that I could receive an organ,if I was ever in the position to need one, unless I was prepared to donate mine when the times comes.

It also irks me that despite the fact I have an organ donor card and it marked on my drivers license for several years, the decision still rests with my next of kin. Something seriously wrong with that. I've told family I will haunt them to their dying days (not sure it's possible!) if they don't respect my wishes.

ohnonotgmail · 04-01-2017 10:10am

Just continuing on from the post above do they still include it with the drivers licence? I dont remember being asked about it when i renewed last year and i dont see anything for it on the new plastic licences.

jacksie66 · 04-01-2017 10:14am

This post has been deleted.

the groutch · 04-01-2017 10:23am

mickstupp wrote: »

I find it kinda disgusting that my family would have any say to go against my wishes regarding donation of my organs. My donor card basically means nothing if one of them decides otherwise.

I hate the idea that their wishes might supercede mine when it comes to my organs getting donated. I don't agree that they should have any say in the matter. I don't agree that their feelings should be taken into consideration, as they already know my wishes, whether or not they agree. My body, my organs, not theirs.

I am fully, 100% in favour of opt-out only.

And to be honest, I can't understand how anyone would be fine with the remote possibility for their family to override their wishes.

Is that not somewhat contradictory, that you want the decision to lie fully in your hands, but at the same time support the introduction of a system that will try to make the decision for an individual?

seamus · 04-01-2017 11:22am

bnt wrote: »

I'm a bit confused by the above post, which says that opt-out doesn't drastically improve organ donation rates, then goes on to say that there would need to be significant improvements in organ donation infrastructure to cope with the ... drastic increase in organ donations?

The drastic increase in availability of organs.

Even if every person on the verge of death is ripe for donation, it's fairly meaningless if you don't have the procedures, equipment and transport fully nailed down and ready to go.

Rather than hearing about how we need more donors, we'd be hearing about how many perfectly good donors are being buried without donating anything.

Alun · 04-01-2017 11:27am

Sound Bite wrote: »

It also irks me that despite the fact I have an organ donor card and it marked on my drivers license for several years, the decision still rests with my next of kin. Something seriously wrong with that. I've told family I will haunt them to their dying days (not sure it's possible!) if they don't respect my wishes.

Me too, I've made it very, very clear to all my relatives what my wishes are, not that their opinions were any different to mine as it happens. In fact, thinking about it, I've never actually met anyone in real-life who objects to donating their organs, only on forums like these.

mickstupp · 04-01-2017 11:44am

the groutch wrote: »

Is that not somewhat contradictory, that you want the decision to lie fully in your hands, but at the same time support the introduction of a system that will try to make the decision for an individual?

No, not even a little bit. Because you can decide to opt-out. No-one's removing that decision from you, or even trying to. Whereas at the moment someone *can* take the decision away from me after I die.

If a person doesn't want to donate, fine, say so, opt-out. But if they do want to donate, how can it be a good thing that someone can override those wishes? It makes having a donor card pointless.

I guess my problem isn't with donating or not donating, it's with how currently your decision to donate can be thrown out the window without your permission. In a proper opt-out system, your decision stands either way.

andekwarhola · 04-01-2017 1:31pm

Each to their own but I find it utterly bizarre that people would feel so strongly about their organs being used to save other lives when, with or without the organs, you're going to be decomposing in the ground or a pile of ashes anyway.

Sound Bite · 04-01-2017 1:40pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Just continuing on from the post above do they still include it with the drivers licence? I dont remember being asked about it when i renewed last year and i dont see anything for it on the new plastic licences.

It's on page 2 of the application form - organ donation section - it is listed on your license as code 115.

ohnonotgmail · 04-01-2017 1:46pm

Sound Bite wrote: »

It's on page 2 of the application form - organ donation section - it is listed on your license as code 115.

I dont remember filling that in but i must have because i have that code on my licence. cheers.

jackofalltrades · 04-01-2017 4:19pm

Completely against an opt-out system.
It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me.
Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.

DrPhilG · 04-01-2017 4:40pm

I can see a lot of issues with an opt out system.

Family will still object and I can't see a situation happening where a medical team wheel a patient off to take their organs if the family are kicking up a fuss.

DrPhilG · 04-01-2017 4:42pm

Ps I totally disagree that family should have a say that over rules the wishes of the patient.

Currently even if I'm on the register, the wishes of the next of kin will take priority.

Glenster · 04-01-2017 4:43pm

Just make it illegal for a private citizen to own a corpse.

Problem solved.

Podge_irl · 04-01-2017 5:39pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Completely against an opt-out system.
It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me.
Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.

It's not making a decision for you. It's changing the view on what your default position should be assumed to be in absence of any definitive statement by you. It's no more making the decision for you then the current set up.

weldoninhio · 04-01-2017 5:44pm

How about not playing god? If it's someone's time to die so be it.

Vic_08 · 04-01-2017 5:47pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

How about not playing god? If it's someone's time to die so be it.

:rolleyes:

I take it that you won't go to a doctor or hospital when you are unwell and will not under any circumstance agree to be a transplant recipient if it is the only way to save your life?

Calhoun · 04-01-2017 5:47pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's not making a decision for you. It's changing the view on what your default position should be assumed to be in absence of any definitive statement by you. It's no more making the decision for you then the current set up.

Seems like its making default ownership for your body parts, I would also think that it could also change how folk are treated medically if not careful and legislated for properly.

KERSPLAT! · 04-01-2017 5:51pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

How about not playing god? If it's someone's time to die so be it.

Ah, would you stop ffs. If you break your arm do you get it sorted or leave it broken and think "well it was meant to be! Best leave it alone." :rolleyes:

Podge_irl · 04-01-2017 5:57pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Seems like its making default ownership for your body parts, I would also think that it could also change how folk are treated medically if not careful and legislated for properly.

No, its assuming by default that you would want to donate your organs if possible to enable someone else to live. If you do not then you simply tell them so. At no point do they "own" your organs.

Why do you think the treatment of people by medical professionals would change? You think those who currently verbalise their desire for organ donation are treated less carefully or with more reckless abandon?

If not an opt-out system I would also be fine with a system where everyone is at least asked the question and has to provide an answer that is recorded. Too often it is simply not thought about/discussed by the deceased person, their family doesn't know what to do and defaults to saying no as they're upset.

jackofalltrades · 04-01-2017 6:29pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's not making a decision for you.
It's changing the view on what your default position should be assumed to be in absence of any definitive statement by you.
It's no more making the decision for you then the current set up.

It is though, the state in this case is making the decision for me that I wish to donate my organs.
As it is with the current system it's up to me to make that decision.

kylith · 04-01-2017 6:36pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'm not anti-donation, I just don't want to give up mine. I'd rather stay while when I'm dead that be harvested. I'm not religious or anything like that, it's just a personal feeling.

Why not? After all, you'll no longer be using them.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Completely against an opt-out system.
It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me.
Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.

It's not making any decisions for you, it's acting on the assumption that unless you say otherwise you'd like to help save other people's lives and if that's the "right result" then I don't see a problem with that.

Personally I am in favour of organ donation. I carry a donor card and have it marked on my driving licence. When I die they can take anything they want and give it to whoever needs it, and good luck to them.

maudgonner · 04-01-2017 6:46pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

It is though, the state in this case is making the decision for me that I wish to donate my organs.
As it is with the current system it's up to me to make that decision.

Well, no actually. Under the current system it's up to your next of kin (and possibly the coroner) to make that decision. You have no binding authority on it at all.

With the soft opt-out system the only thing that would change is the default position would be that you are willing to have your organs donated, rather than that you are not. It is still your 'decision', if you care enough to voice an opinion on the matter.
Under a hard opt-out system it would remove your next of kin from the equation. It would actually give you more control over the situation, not less.

04-01-2017 7:49pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Completely against an opt-out system.
It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me.
Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.

I agree with the part about the "expense of personal freedoms" but then it's not really personal freedom if your next of kin is the ultimate decision maker anyway, so either way it's out of your hands.

I'm in favour of OPT OUT, they can take anything that's left of me when I die!

weldoninhio · 04-01-2017 8:02pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I take it that you won't go to a doctor or hospital when you are unwell and will not under any circumstance agree to be a transplant recipient if it is the only way to save your life?

I'm playing devils advocate with the ones saying you should have no choice what happens your body once you die.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-01-2017 8:02pm

freedominacup wrote:

The process to opt out should require a serious amount of hassle and expense.

I'd favour hard opt out but opting out should be easy. It's your body after all.

We just need to get the conversation started so publicise the hell out of it and make it completely normal to talk about. If you can't articulate your reasons for not donating, then you should think longer.

weldoninhio · 04-01-2017 8:05pm

kylith wrote: »

Why not? After all, you'll no longer be using them.

It's not making any decisions for you, it's acting on the assumption that unless you say otherwise you'd like to help save other people's lives and if that's the "right result" then I don't see a problem with that.

Personally I am in favour of organ donation. I carry a donor card and have it marked on my driving licence. When I die they can take anything they want and give it to whoever needs it, and good luck to them.

That's your choice, mine is the opposite. Why should I have to opt-out of my body being harvested after death?? They should maybe have a register where people can opt in? That way there is no ambiguity about it.

weldoninhio · 04-01-2017 8:06pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd favour hard opt out but opting out should be easy. It's your body after all.

We just need to get the conversation started so publicise the hell out of it and make it completely normal to talk about. If you can't articulate your reasons for not donating, then you should think longer.

If you don't agree with me you have to think about it more. Jesus!!

El_Duderino 09 · 04-01-2017 8:18pm

jackofalltrades wrote:

Completely against an opt-out system. It's my body, the state can fÃºck off making decisions for me. Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.

It's still your body. It would take about as much time and effort to opt out as to write that post about op

It would take a fraction of the interest you showed in that post to make sure you exercise your personal freedom and get the right result. Chronic laziness could get in the way of you getting the right result, but that's about all.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-01-2017 8:20pm

weldoninhio wrote:

If you don't agree with me you have to think about it more. Jesus!!

Calm down. Thinking isn't compulsory

ShaShaBear · 04-01-2017 8:26pm

I'm glad to see some people have sympathy and understanding for next of kin and families that have made the excruciating decision not to donate a loved one's organs after death. My father died 6 years ago after several brain hemorrhages and we were veritably harassed by the spokespeople there to donate anything and everything we were willing to. My sister, only 14 at the time, begged that they would not take his eyes or his heart - that she wanted him to "go to heaven" with the memory of his love for us and what we looked like. It was a huge shock, and he was kept on life support for far longer than necessary while we came to a decision. Eventually, being told that he would be transported elsewhere for the surgery and that we could be waiting up to a week before we were issued with the emptied corpse was what made the decision for us. That and a concerned nurse coming to us on the QT to tell us that, if we consented, they would and have taken everything that was useful, despite our wishes.

I've told my husband that if my death is natural or expected, that I wish to have all useful bits and bobs donated. If it is a shock death, especially if the kids are young, that he is to make the best call he can on how to minimise the trauma and suffering for my immediate family. There's not a lot I can give my husband and children when I die, so the decision on how to dispose of me can lie with them. If I were forced to "opt-in" or "opt-out" exclusively with no in-between, I'd be forced to opt-out to protect my loved ones.

04-01-2017 8:33pm

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I'm glad to see some people have sympathy and understanding for next of kin and families that have made the excruciating decision not to donate a loved one's organs after death. My father died 6 years ago after several brain hemorrhages and we were veritably harassed by the spokespeople there to donate anything and everything we were willing to. My sister, only 14 at the time, begged that they would not take his eyes or his heart - that she wanted him to "go to heaven" with the memory of his love for us and what we looked like. It was a huge shock, and he was kept on life support for far longer than necessary while we came to a decision. Eventually, being told that he would be transported elsewhere for the surgery and that we could be waiting up to a week before we were issued with the emptied corpse was what made the decision for us. That and a concerned nurse coming to us on the QT to tell us that, if we consented, they would and have taken everything that was useful, despite our wishes.

I've told my husband that if my death is natural or expected, that I wish to have all useful bits and bobs donated. If it is a shock death, especially if the kids are young, that he is to make the best call he can on how to minimise the trauma and suffering for my immediate family. There's not a lot I can give my husband and children when I die, so the decision on how to dispose of me can lie with them. If I were forced to "opt-in" or "opt-out" exclusively with no in-between, I'd be forced to opt-out to protect my loved ones.

I don't think people lack sympathy, I think people are viewing it from the viewpoint of the many people who will die on waiting lists. I'm sorry to hear about your situation by the way, truly. Everyone's experience is different of organ donation but ultimately the opt out system puts the decision into the hands of the deceased before they die. I can understand that at the time it wasn't the right choice for your family, i can certainly understand that if someone told me it would take up to a week to have the body returned I too would be very hesitant. Other families like my own have had very positive experiences, it is very circumstantial but after a shock death is certainly not the time to have to think about things like organ donation, which is where the opt out system could play such a vital role in removing the need to make that decision from the family.

An opt out system would however still allow the person to opt out completely of organ donation, so it wouldn't be compulsory.

Podge_irl · 04-01-2017 8:33pm

ShaShaBear wrote: »

That and a concerned nurse coming to us on the QT to tell us that, if we consented, they would and have taken everything that was useful, despite our wishes.

Well then she lied to you.

I may be wrong on this, but my understanding is that unfortunately organ donation is not generally possible in scenarios where the death is natural or expected. It is precisely the shock deaths that result in the possibility. The next of kin having to make a decision on whether or not to donate organs in this scenario is precisely the grim situation that this is trying to avoid. Instead it is about honouring the wishes of the deceased.

kylith · 04-01-2017 8:51pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

That's your choice, mine is the opposite. Why should I have to opt-out of my body being harvested after death?? They should maybe have a register where people can opt in? That way there is no ambiguity about it.

There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky :rolleyes:) or incinerated.

But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?

El_Duderino 09 · 04-01-2017 8:55pm

kylith wrote:

But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?

'I just don't want to' is an answer. It's just a really poorly thought out one.

If someone couldn't be bothered to put the thought into why they would or wouldn't want to donate organs, they probably couldn't be bothered to opt in or out either.

Podge_irl · 04-01-2017 9:24pm

kylith wrote: »

There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky :rolleyes:) or incinerated.

An opt-in register wouldn't have any legal standing in Ireland at present as far as I understand. It is entirely up to your next of kin even if they carve you up or donate your body to science against your expressly conveyed wishes.

jackofalltrades · 04-01-2017 9:24pm

kylith wrote: »

It's not making any decisions for you, it's acting on the assumption that unless you say otherwise you'd like to help save other people's lives and if that's the "right result" then I don't see a problem with that.

But why is there the need for assumptions?
If people have made the decision to donate their organs, then all they have to do is to tick the box on their drivers licence or get a donor card.
That's a fairly easy thing to do.
If they haven't done that then it's probably fair to say that they're either against it or haven't thought it through.
All the opt-out system seems to do is to cynically take advantage of people's being busy/uninformed/having other things to do to get the kind of result that it wants.

Would it not be better instead of relaying on this kind of ethically questionable practice to actually ask people what their intentions are?
Have it as a Yes/No question on the application for a Drivers Licence/PPS number/Passport.
Even go door to door and ask people face-to-face.

Calhoun · 04-01-2017 9:25pm

kylith wrote: »

There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky :rolleyes:) or incinerated.

But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?

The big issue folk have here is not that the don't want to donate but that people are advocating that the default assumption is that they will sign over their organs as if the state owns your body.

What kind of regulation do we have in place to make sure everything is being done for those who are in a position to donate that all measures are exhausted to bring them back ect? This is Ireland after all where the medical system time and time again has shown itself to be not always so morale.

When people don't even want to entertain that there is another viewpoint other than people are dying and we need to harvest right now then what do they expect. If you want to educate and get more people on board then so be it but as usual we get condescension and looking down on people.

04-01-2017 9:29pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

All the opt-out system seems to do is to cynically take advantage of people's being busy/uninformed/having other things to do to get the kind of result that it wants.

At the end of the day the decision should rest with the organ donor, it is not always necessarily the case that the next of kin would know someone's wishes which is how it currently works.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Would it not be better instead of relaying on this kind of ethically questionable practice to actually ask people what their intentions are?
Have it as a Yes/No question on the application for a Drivers Licence/PPS number/Passport.
Even go door to door and ask people face-to-face.

I don't think it's ethically questionable? You have the option to opt out. It's like changing your sex, when you are born you are assigned a certain sex throughout the course of your life if you so wish you can change that sex. I think it just normalises organ donation, makes it a part of our existence.

end of the road · 04-01-2017 9:32pm

kylith wrote: »

There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky ) or incinerated.

But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?

actually, i don't want to is an answer and a perfectly legitimate one at that. nobody has to explain why they want to or don't want to donate their organs. it's their business and their decisian will be respected.

Podge_irl · 04-01-2017 9:33pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

But why is there the need for assumptions?
If people have made the decision to donate their organs, then all they have to do is to tick the box on their drivers licence or get a donor card.

And it has absolutely zero legal standing.

Your relatives can do whatever the hell they want with your body when you're dead.

Calhoun wrote:

What kind of regulation do we have in place to make sure everything is being done for those who are in a position to donate that all measures are exhausted to bring them back ect?

The same ones that stop a doctor letting you die cause they just feel like it at the moment?

Calhoun wrote:

This is Ireland after all where the medical system time and time again has shown itself to be not always so morale.

Such as?

osarusan · 04-01-2017 9:33pm

Calhoun wrote: »

What kind of regulation do we have in place to make sure everything is being done for those who are in a position to donate that all measures are exhausted to bring them back ect? This is Ireland after all where the medical system time and time again has shown itself to be not always so morale.

I don't think that's any more of an issue in an opt-out system than an opt-in system.

I think it's a terrible argument in both cases.

KERSPLAT! · 04-01-2017 9:36pm

I've no issue with people not wanting to donate, it's their body and their decision. They don't need to justify it to me. My concern is the waste when there are people who want to donate but for whatever reason, their wishes aren't met. Be it family members going against their wishes or not knowing them to begin with. Either way it's a waste

04-01-2017 9:36pm

end of the road wrote: »

actually, i don't want to is an answer and a perfectly legitimate one at that. nobody has to explain why they want to or don't want to donate their organs. it's their business and their decisian will be respected.

On this note a lot of people say they won't donate because they want to be buried with their organs, should we also laws regarding:
-the embalment process
-the removal of organs in emergencies (spline for example) where it is necessary to try and save that persons life, if there is a chance they will die.. seeing as they want to be buried with all of their organs?

Podge_irl · 04-01-2017 9:39pm

end of the road wrote: »

actually, i don't want to is an answer and a perfectly legitimate one at that. nobody has to explain why they want to or don't want to donate their organs. it's their business and their decisian will be respected.

Actually currently it won't.

Yes, it is a perfectly legitimate answer but not exactly all that enlightening as to what the thought process behind why they have an issue with it.

infogiver · 04-01-2017 9:44pm

I complete a lot of driver license applications for people as part of my job and I would estimate only 2 out of 10 tick the box choosing to be an organ donor.
I checked the RSA website and it claims 4 out of 10 but, no, I'd say 3, tops.

osarusan · 04-01-2017 9:45pm

222233 wrote: »

-the removal of organs in emergencies (spline for example) where it is necessary to try and save that persons life, if there is a chance they will die.. seeing as they want to be buried with all of their organs?

I think this is a bit silly to be honest. Just because you wouldn't like your organs removed after death doesn't mean that logically you wouldn't like a diseased lung removed either.

I don't have a problem with somebody not wanting to be a donor. I'm not baffled by the idea of wanting to be buried/cremated completely intact. I don't need more of an explanation than that. And if that is how you feel, you just opt out. I'm in favour of making that process easy.

But I don't think it is an argument against an opt-out sytem.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-01-2017 9:47pm

infogiver wrote:

I complete a lot of driver license applications for people as part of my job and I would estimate only 2 out of 10 tick the box choosing to be an organ donor. I checked the RSA website and it claims 4 out of 10 but, no, I'd say 3, tops.

To be fair I had my first license for a couple of years before I ticked the box so the actual number could be higher than when you see them.

Podge_irl · 04-01-2017 9:49pm

osarusan wrote: »

I don't have a problem with somebody not wanting to be a donor. I'm not baffled by the idea of wanting to be buried/cremated completely intact. I don't need more of an explanation that that. And if that is how you feel, you just opt out. I'm in favour of making that process easy.

But I don't think it is an argument against an opt-out sytem.

I agree. I'm curious as to people's reasons for not wanting to be donors but that's a personal interest. I think any opt-out system should be straightforward.

Because ultimately, as in the current system, the vast majority of people who don't actually overly care one way or the other will go with the status quo.

infogiver · 04-01-2017 9:54pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

To be fair I had my first license for a couple of years before I ticked the box so the actual number could be higher than when you see them.

When you go to get your first license now or to renew your licence now its question 20 on the application form and it will appear on your plastic license as code 115 if you opt in.
The RSA are quite clear. Only 4 out of 10 tick the box on the application form.
In my experience it wouldn't even be 4.
People squirm uncomfortably and then say "no".

Opt-Out Organ Donation

Comments