Journalism and cycling

SPDUB · 05-10-2018 4:46pm

The case I know from earlier this year didn't have 'died tragically' in reports , it just noted that they had died but without really saying why , but people who knew the person told me it was suicide .

AndrewJRenko · 06-10-2018 12:16pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

This. Anybody who's ever had an insurance claim will know it can be difficult to get them to pay out.

Has this changed recently? I was involved with one claim about 15 years back of a clear case of suicide by overdose, and there was no difficulty with the mortgage protection payout. There was restriction on death by suicide in the first year of the policy iirc.

SPDUB wrote: »

The case I know from earlier this year didn't have 'died tragically' in reports , it just noted that they had died but without really saying why , but people who knew the person told me it was suicide .

You do hear the 'died tragically' in the immediate news reports, or 'tragic incident' on the train line, but I don't think I've ever heard this in the case of a pedestrian being hit by a car. Either way, the more specific facts and details tend to come out at an Inquest, and tend to be reported by the press.

Steoller wrote: »

In the case I've told you about, evidently not, or I would have linked it.

As an aside, I don't understand why you're railing against this, like it doesn't happen, or it's a myth because we can't produce the reports for you. Society in this country has a terrible attitude to mental health as a whole and suicide in particular. Is it so hard to believe that reporters, doctors, and Gardai in such a society would omit suicide as a cause of death in these circumstances, to spare a family? That they would find it too ghoulish to record it that way officially unless they had no other choice?

I'm not really 'railing against it' - I'm trying to dig to find out whether it is a real issue or not. Is it an urban myth, or does it happen so rarely that it really isn't worth considering in road policy discussions.

My own gut feeling is that it is generally just another excuse for crap driving, but I'm happy to be informed by evidence either way.

meeeeh · 06-10-2018 12:48pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

My own gut feeling is that it is generally just another excuse for crap driving, but I'm happy to be informed by evidence either way.

Firstly I haven't used that as an excuse for crap driving because Irish roads safety statistics are pretty good. But your whinging about crappy driving is just whinging that not supported by international comparisons. It could always be better though.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/shane-ross-road-safety-4079524-Jun2018/%3famp=1

My interest in suicide stats is just that I noticed there are a lot more single occupied car crashes in Ireland. And I know of one pedestrian death that was suicide. But then there are not that many bridges in Ireland where people can attempt suicides.

AndrewJRenko · 06-10-2018 1:51pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Firstly I haven't used that as an excuse for crap driving

Others have. They have explicitly used this trope of suicidal pedestrians as an excuse for drivers hitting pedestrians. They have used it to punch holes in the legal requirement for drivers to be able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear because, you know, pedestrians are always just jumping out in front of motorists trying to get themselves killed.

meeeeh wrote: »

because Irish roads safety statistics are pretty good. But your whinging about crappy driving is just whinging that not supported by international comparisons. It could always be better though.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/shane-ross-road-safety-4079524-Jun2018/%3famp=1

The international comparisons on road death figures aren't too bad, and have improved considerably over 15-20 years ago.

But we're still seeing motorists killing 3 or 4 people each week in largely avoidable crashes. That's three or four families devastated each week, because someone was driving too fast, or driving on the phone, or driving after a few pints, or driving after too many hours working/driving.

We have three incidents of aggressive intentional attempts to harm cyclists by taxi drivers caught on camera in the past 2-3 weeks. If these are the ones caught on camera, how many other times is it happening off camera?

Just look around you in traffic and you'll understand why Ireland came 2nd worst in the European league table of mobile phone abuse.

We have a long, long way to go.

meeeeh · 06-10-2018 4:21pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We have three incidents of aggressive intentional attempts to harm cyclists by taxi drivers caught on camera in the past 2-3 weeks. If these are the ones caught on camera, how many other times is it happening off camera?

I don't know but you probably have some coroner's report about it. Or it might be just the three incidents on camera. (For the record I think they should be put of road for life for that).

The fact is that only death statisc increasing is cyclist, overall numbers and everything else is falling. I would assume that means road behaviour of motorists is improving as is the road infrastructure and yet cycling deaths are increasing. Either they are increasing because of bigger numbers of cyclists or maybe there is a space for improvement in cyclist behaviour too. Or do you have alternative explanation.

jjpep · 06-10-2018 4:58pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know but you probably have some coroner's report about it. Or it might be just the three incidents on camera. (For the record I think they should be put of road for life for that).

The fact is that only death statisc increasing is cyclist, overall numbers and everything else is falling. I would assume that means road behaviour of motorists is improving as is the road infrastructure and yet cycling deaths are increasing. Either they are increasing because of bigger numbers of cyclists or maybe there is a space for improvement in cyclist behaviour too. Or do you have alternative explanation.

The infrastructure is not improving though. And the poor quality is being exposed by the increased numbers of cyclists. Combined poor quality infrastructure with increased number of cyclists with a motorist population that is being egged on by the media to feel as if there under attack by cyclists and you get the behavior that we've seen captured on video over the last few days.

On the subject of the media, its interesting that one of biggest advertisers (and therefore funders) as an industry is the motor industry. Might explain the stance some outlets take. Mad dangerous cyclists on the loose. Send your 30 cent text now....

AndrewJRenko · 06-10-2018 5:13pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know but you probably have some coroner's report about it.

I really don't get the rationale for the jibe about Coroners' reports, as if I'm some kind of crazed extremist for looking at Coroners' reports as a useful source of data about causes and circumstances of deaths.

meeeeh wrote: »

Or it might be just the three incidents on camera.

Wouldn't that be an amazing mathematical improbability? What percentage of cyclists and motorists have cameras these days - maybe 10% or 20% at a stretch. And yet, you reckon that it's reasonable to assume that three incidents in question just happened to occur in view of a camera?

meeeeh wrote: »

The fact is that only death statisc increasing is cyclist, overall numbers and everything else is falling.

Where's did you get that from? 2017 did indeed have a worrying increase in deaths but it's a long way off from saying that the trend is increasing. Here's the year-on-year changes;

percentage-change-graphed.png?resize=640%2C394

percentage-change-graphed.png?resize=640%2C394

Source: http://irishcycle.com/2018/01/03/cycling-deaths-2017/

The current number for 2018 is 7 deaths, which would have us on track for a reduction in the total for 2018.

meeeeh wrote: »

I would assume that means road behaviour of motorists is improving as is the road infrastructure and yet cycling deaths are increasing. Either they are increasing because of bigger numbers of cyclists or maybe there is a space for improvement in cyclist behaviour too. Or do you have alternative explanation.

That's a big old assumption there, giving 'road behaviour of motorists' full credit for all reductions in road deaths. Do you think that improved safety technology in cars might play a part? Do you think that Mandatory Alcohol Testing by Gardai might play a part? Do you think that the NCT getting junker cars off the road might play a part?

And buried in your comment is the further assumption that cyclist deaths are down to cyclist behaviour - how did you manage to work this one out?

meeeeh · 06-10-2018 6:07pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And buried in your comment is the further assumption that cyclist deaths are down to cyclist behaviour - how did you manage to work this one out?

By trolling and making the same nonsense generalised statements as you are making about drivers.

AndrewJRenko · 06-10-2018 6:19pm

meeeeh wrote: »

By trolling and making the same nonsense generalised statements as you are making about drivers.

I'm pretty sure that every 'generalised' statement I've made about drivers is backed up by evidence. But feel free to point out any specific statements that you think are 'nonsense'.

beauf · 06-10-2018 6:24pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know but you probably have some coroner's report about it. Or it might be just the three incidents on camera. (For the record I think they should be put of road for life for that).

The fact is that only death statisc increasing is cyclist, overall numbers and everything else is falling. I would assume that means road behaviour of motorists is improving as is the road infrastructure and yet cycling deaths are increasing. Either they are increasing because of bigger numbers of cyclists or maybe there is a space for improvement in cyclist behaviour too. Or do you have alternative explanation.

I think theres more to it than that...

http://www.thejournal.ie/rsa-road-deaths-4117518-Jul2018/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/number-of-daily-dublin-cyclists-doubles-to-more-than-95-000-1.3230465

magicbastarder · 06-10-2018 6:31pm

Fatalities in cars have been falling over the years due in no small part to the fact that cars are safer to be in now than they used to be.

meeeeh · 06-10-2018 10:34pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Fatalities in cars have been falling over the years due in no small part to the fact that cars are safer to be in now than they used to be.

They are but I would say the main difference are motorways.

magicbastarder · 07-10-2018 12:09am

also, i have heard that fatalities in cars did not fall as quickly as they might have done at first because driving an older car, without the safety technology, crumple zones, etc., became more dangerous when *other* cars had them; i.e. a being in a 1995 car crashing into a 1995 car was more survivable than being in a 1995 car crashing into a 2005 car. but the playing field has levelled out to an extent since, so you're at less of a disadvantage when driving a 10 or 15 year old car.

Rechuchote · 07-10-2018 12:58am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm not really 'railing against it' - I'm trying to dig to find out whether it is a real issue or not. Is it an urban myth, or does it happen so rarely that it really isn't worth considering in road policy discussions.

One of Malcolm Gladwell's books has an interesting essay about suicide as a fashion statement. He starts out with an epidemic of male teen suicides on an island in… Micronesia, I think it was.

Then he talks about how one suicide reported heavily in the press tends to be followed by others.

Then, even more chillingly, how one suicide tends to be followed by car crashes that are similar - for instance, if there's a murder-suicide by a man of his wife and two children, this is (he says) statistically likely to be followed in the next few weeks by fatal car crashes with a man driving his wife and two children. If there is a single male suicide, there tend (he says) to be single male car crash deaths in the following weeks.

I don't know if he's correct, but it surely gave me the creeps.

Weepsie · 07-10-2018 3:49am

meeeeh wrote: »

The fact is that only death statisc increasing is cyclist, overall numbers and everything else is falling. I would assume that means road behaviour of motorists is improving as is the road infrastructure and yet cycling deaths are increasing. Either they are increasing because of bigger numbers of cyclists or maybe there is a space for improvement in cyclist behaviour too. Or do you have alternative explanation.

Or that motorist behaviour is dropping. That just as easy an inference to make as the two very lazy ones you have made, and based on the evidence is the most likely reason for the increase in deaths.

That there are circa, 230,000 drivers with penalty points at present (about 10%) of the licensed amount, is utterly shameful. That this fails to take into account the sheer volume of drivers who get away with on a daily basis speeding, rljing, drink driving and perhaps most commonly, using their mobile phones while driving just points to how poor the standard of our drivers are. It's poor, and it's a minor miracle that their are not more serious injuries on our roads.

meeeeh · 07-10-2018 10:05am

Weepsie wrote: »

That this fails to take into account the sheer volume of drivers who get away with on a daily basis speeding, rljing, drink driving and perhaps most commonly, using their mobile phones while driving just points to how poor the standard of our drivers are. It's poor, and it's a minor miracle that their are not more serious injuries on our roads.

And yet international comparisons tend not to confirm that. I'm well aware that Ireland has an advantage of very empty roads outside couple of cities so that helps. There are some local habits that are not as present in some other countries (stopping in the middle of a local road and having a chat, parking on roads, cycling paths, sidewalks and half of the people don't know how to drive on motorways) but I've driven quite a lot in central/western Europe and Ireland is not bad at all in comparison.

That being said I absolutely despise use of mobile phones while driving and I think it should be aggressively dealt with.

ford2600 · 07-10-2018 11:28am

magicbastarder wrote: »

Fatalities in cars have been falling over the years due in no small part to the fact that cars are safer to be in now than they used to be.

That's beyond simplistic view of things, the funny thing with all the factors which have contributed to fatalities reducing, that the one with most money and pr behind it.

We used to kill close to up to 650 a year when national fleet was tiny and fuel prices insured average annual mileage was also tiny.

The number in 17 was 25% of what the 1972 peak was. In 1972 in a crap car with drum brakes it was socially acceptable to cram as many as possible into it and drive as fast as possible while drunk. That was still acceptable at the turn of the century in many areas.

There has been a dramatic change in driver behaviour in that time.

Also road quality in terms of design, surface materials has also moved on immeasurably. Junction design layout in now coded in central (and copied from UK ) design manuals.

The former NRA has a specialist unit which examines every road fatality and the role road/signage played in it and lessons to learn and implement.

The Gardai has a specialist forensic unit also which does prosecute people, which was not the case.

While not perfect penalty points and RSA PR campaigns have changed attitudes.

We would all like things to be better, and there is room for improvement in lots of areas, the refusal to admit driver behaviour is better than it was is at odds with the facts. If behaviour can be changed with regard to drink/speed it can be changed with regard mobile phone/respect for vulnerable road users also.

Rechuchote · 07-10-2018 12:14pm

ford2600 wrote: »

The former NRA has a specialist unit which examines every road fatality and the role road/signage played in it and lessons to learn and implement.

And yet in coroners' court reports you hear unqualified gardaí being asked for their opinion of cycling infrastructure safety, and you don't hear evidence from this NRA unit with, presumably, scientific analysis of how the 'accident' happpened. Why is that?

RacoonQueen · 07-10-2018 12:49pm

Weepsie wrote: »

Or that motorist behaviour is dropping. That just as easy an inference to make as the two very lazy ones you have made, and based on the evidence is the most likely reason for the increase in deaths.

That there are circa, 230,000 drivers with penalty points at present (about 10%) of the licensed amount, is utterly shameful. That this fails to take into account the sheer volume of drivers who get away with on a daily basis speeding, rljing, drink driving and perhaps most commonly, using their mobile phones while driving just points to how poor the standard of our drivers are. It's poor, and it's a minor miracle that their are not more serious injuries on our roads.

Ah penalty points. I remember once seeing a post somewhere on boards from someone saying that they are far too easy to get and it so unfair etc etc and people agreeing with this. Jesus. :rolleyes:

Cabaal · 07-10-2018 2:06pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Ah penalty points. I remember once seeing a post somewhere on boards from someone saying that they are far too easy to get and it so unfair etc etc and people agreeing with this. Jesus. :rolleyes:

Normally these are the same people that outright hate clampers no matter the situation.

Its funny, I'm driving over 10 years and to date:
- No points
- No fines
- No clamps

If anyone finds points or clamping too easily to happen to them, then they really need to take a hard look in the mirror.

magicbastarder · 07-10-2018 2:18pm

ford2600 wrote: »

We would all like things to be better, and there is room for improvement in lots of areas, the refusal to admit driver behaviour is better than it was is at odds with the facts. If behaviour can be changed with regard to drink/speed it can be changed with regard mobile phone/respect for vulnerable road users also.

Not sure if you're still addressing my post here, but I was in no way addressing driver behavior. All I was saying was that car design has had an impact (pun unintended) on survivability of crashes.

Interestingly, I've just learned that airbags are not mandatory in Europe on new car builds. Assuming Wikipedia is correct. Obviously, not having them has a fairly significant effect on euro ncap ratings so manufacturers do include them.

Macy0161 · 07-10-2018 8:13pm

ford2600 wrote:

We would all like things to be better, and there is room for improvement in lots of areas, the refusal to admit driver behaviour is better than it was is at odds with the facts. If behaviour can be changed with regard to drink/speed it can be changed with regard mobile phone/respect for vulnerable road users also.

I really don't see the behaviour changed to be honest. Just enforcement is even less. Try sticking to the speed limit (even off GPS rather than speedometer) and see how often you're passed or how quickly traffic builds behind.

IMO any improvement in stats is down to infrastructural improvements. I genuinely don't see any change in attitudes/ behaviour, or in enforcement. There was slight bumps with penalty points, and speed cameras, but that quickly dissipated when enforcement wasn't followed up on, and what started as new cameras just became regular spots that people know.

I can tell you the same location, on the same days, at the same times the private camera van will be in our village every week! It clicks up the checks, but only non-locals have any chance of being caught. Meanwhile, you'll be overtaken trying to be even close to the limit, within the 50 zone, away from that spot.

meeeeh · 07-10-2018 11:10pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

I can tell you the same location, on the same days, at the same times the private camera van will be in our village every week! It clicks up the checks, but only non-locals have any chance of being caught. Meanwhile, you'll be overtaken trying to be even close to the limit, within the 50 zone, away from that spot.

I'm sorry but nonsense about speed vans is the height of stupidity. The role of the van is not to try to dish out fines half of the country doesn't bother paying and half of the courts don't bother to collect. They stop people speeding on dangerous parts of the road. If they don't catch anyone it means they are achieving what they are supposed to achieve and hopefully save lives. If you want to catch people for speeding put a van before a toll collection point and you will catch 80% of the traffic and achieve absolutely nothing because motorways are by far the safest roads.

Macy0161 · 08-10-2018 12:10am

The spot the van parks in is near no junctions, no pedestrian crossings or crossing points. It happens to be after a blind corner, so that you cant see it in time, if you weren't expecting it.

Seriously, I just believe you're trolling the thread, based on this comment on top of the rest.

I could think of 5 places that speeding is more of a potential impact in the village limits than where they chose to set up.

meeeeh · 08-10-2018 12:22am

Macy0161 wrote: »

The spot the van parks in is near no junctions, no pedestrian crossings or crossing points. It happens to be after a blind corner, so that you cant see it in time, if you weren't expecting.

But all those of you who know it is there are driving according to the speed limits through the blind corner. I'm not going to argue about where every speed van is but I know they were put on more dangerous locations. And no I'm not trolling this time, the point of fines it is not to collect more money for the budget but to improve behaviour on the roads. I don't know your expertise so you might be better equipped to position speeding vans than whoever was analysing data for gards but maybe you can email them with your suggestions.

https://www.garda.ie/en/roads-policing/road-safety/view-safety-camera-locations.html

CramCycle · 08-10-2018 12:29am

meeeeh wrote: »

But all those of you who know it is there are driving according to the speed limits through the blind corner. I'm not going to argue about where every speed van is but I know they were put on more dangerous locations. And no I'm not trolling this time, the point of fines it is not to collect more money for the budget but to improve behaviour on the roads. I don't know your expertise so you might be better equipped to position speeding vans than whoever was analysing data for gards but maybe you can email them with your suggestions.

https://www.garda.ie/en/roads-policing/road-safety/view-safety-camera-locations.html

Well a far better use would have been a network of average speed cameras, but thats not politically viable. Start with a broad sweeping network and slowly ramp it up to cover most of the country. Simples.

magicbastarder · 08-10-2018 12:32am

the stupid thing about speed cameras is that often their location is publicised (i believe in an effort to prove they're not simply a revenue generator).
anyway, it completely negates the whole point of them. you shouldn't be given forewarning about the (very limited) specific spots you actually need to adhere to the speed limit on.

meeeeh · 08-10-2018 12:36am

magicbastarder wrote: »

the stupid thing about speed cameras is that often their location is publicised (i believe in an effort to prove they're not simply a revenue generator).
anyway, it completely negates the whole point of them. you shouldn't be given forewarning about the (very limited) specific spots you actually need to adhere to the speed limit on.

Except if you want to make sure that people don't speed and that part of the road is therefore a lot safer... Isn't that the aim? Actual garda manned speed checks can be for catching serious offenders.

As for average speed cameras I think they mostly work on motorways. Irish motorways are relatively empty and safe so I assume it would be more or less pointless. Average speed cameras on roads with turn off every 30 meters won't work (I think).

magicbastarder · 08-10-2018 12:42am

meeeeh wrote: »

Except if you want to make sure that people don't speed and that part of the road

that part of the road being a half kilometre stretch, usually?
why not make motorists aware that there's a speed van in operation somewhere near kildare, for example, rather than naming the specific stretch of road it's on?

meeeeh · 08-10-2018 12:50am

magicbastarder wrote: »

that part of the road being a half kilometre stretch, usually?
why not make motorists aware that there's a speed van in operation somewhere near kildare, for example, rather than naming the specific stretch of road it's on?

Our one is on a 100km road about 200m before turn off for the local school. That one is in the perfect location. I'm not overly bothered about naming location or not, but it's fairly common to advertise speed cameras when you really want people to slow down. It's used a lot in tunnels for obvious reasons.

Macy0161 · 08-10-2018 9:43am

meeeeh wrote: »

But all those of you who know it is there are driving according to the speed limits through the blind corner. I'm not going to argue about where every speed van is but I know they were put on more dangerous locations. And no I'm not trolling this time, the point of fines it is not to collect more money for the budget but to improve behaviour on the roads. I don't know your expertise so you might be better equipped to position speeding vans than whoever was analysing data for gards but maybe you can email them with your suggestions.

I know the PR, but when I say blind, I mean to the location of the camera van. It's a bend on the road - the position of the van makes it not visible. Even in that location, it goes something like this, come around the bend - van there, stay slow. Van not there accelerate down into the junction/ zebra crossing/ shops.

If you're not trolling, you come across as apologist for the appauling enforcement of our roads. The tech is there for average speed cameras, not just restricted to short or defined stretches of road. In my own example, you're only talking 5 entry/ exit points, but you could narrow that down to one main road. The tech doesn't fall over if a car doesn't come through the second camera to do the calculation.

We could use ANPR for tax/ insurance/ nct/ licence and free up those guards wasted at checkpoints for other activities. We could have Red Light Cameras rotating every junction (so they're potentially at every junction, they don't need to be every junction 24/7). So much we could do, but apparently everything is grand because it's better than it was when we had crap cars and crap roads!

Rechuchote · 08-10-2018 9:48am

Why in God's name are we using camera vans at this stage of the world? We could have automated cameras hidden in trees that can issue fines and send them out to speeders.

magicbastarder · 08-10-2018 9:51am

because the political will, will point to our historically low death rate on the roads.
personally, i'd like to see the money spent on more gardai than on speed cameras. i know it shouldn't be either/or, but it is. especially with the week that's in it.

Macy0161 · 08-10-2018 9:59am

magicbastarder wrote: »

because the political will, will point to our historically low death rate on the roads.

It's politically toxic to enforce motorists. Especially on things like speeding which are so accepted. Camera's can catch more in a day than guard in week, and at a much lower cost.

plodder · 08-10-2018 10:05am

When I lived in Germany 20 years ago they used to announce on the radio every morning the general areas where speed checks would be. The idea was a) to reach far more people than those just passing the speed check and b) to encourage compliance rather than "punishment". As far as I know there is some evidential basis for it. Though the problem here is once you announce a general area, you are probably revealing the exact location as well, as they don't seem to change much. On average speed cameras, I use the port tunnel regularly and they are very effective. It's only a matter of time before they are put on the M50 and maybe other busy motorways. They use ANPR cameras on some traffic lights in the UK (incl. Belfast) and they work very well too for catching red light jumpers.

meeeeh · 08-10-2018 10:11am

Macy0161 wrote: »

I know the PR, but when I say blind, I mean to the location of the camera van. It's a bend on the road - the position of the van makes it not visible. Even in that location, it goes something like this, come around the bend - van there, stay slow. Van not there accelerate down into the junction/ zebra crossing/ shops.

If you're not trolling, you come across as apologist for the appauling enforcement of our roads. The tech is there for average speed cameras, not just restricted to short or defined stretches of road. In my own example, you're only talking 5 entry/ exit points, but you could narrow that down to one main road. The tech doesn't fall over if a car doesn't come through the second camera to do the calculation.

We could use ANPR for tax/ insurance/ nct/ licence and free up those guards wasted at checkpoints for other activities. We could have Red Light Cameras rotating every junction (so they're potentially at every junction, they don't need to be every junction 24/7). So much we could do, but apparently everything is grand because it's better than it was when we had crap cars and crap roads!

That's just more nonsense. I'm not apologist for anything if I point out you lack basic understanding what the role of speed camera vans is. I'm not against cameras on the junctions or someone else checking tax/nct/insurance. Of course you could just make nct annual and you would have to pay insurance and tax for the year at the same time. But that's nothing to do with complaining everyone knows where speed camera van is parked.

I really don't think average speed camera will work. You can have people speeding and yet because they slow down every time someone in front of them turns left or right at one of the exits their average speed will be ok. Average speed cameras are great in the tunnels and on certain motorways.

CramCycle · 08-10-2018 10:20am

magicbastarder wrote: »

because the political will, will point to our historically low death rate on the roads.
personally, i'd like to see the money spent on more gardai than on speed cameras. i know it shouldn't be either/or, but it is. especially with the week that's in it.

I'd like to see both, gardai should not be out pointing speed guns at people.

plodder wrote: »

When I lived in Germany 20 years ago they used to announce on the radio every morning the general areas where speed checks would be. The idea was a) to reach far more people than those just passing the speed check and b) to encourage compliance rather than "punishment". As far as I know there is some evidential basis for it. Though the problem here is once you announce a general area, you are probably revealing the exact location as well, as they don't seem to change much. On average speed cameras, I use the port tunnel regularly and they are very effective. It's only a matter of time before they are put on the M50 and maybe other busy motorways. They use ANPR cameras on some traffic lights in the UK (incl. Belfast) and they work very well too for catching red light jumpers.

meeeeh wrote: »

I really don't think average speed camera will work. You can have people speeding and yet because they slow down every time someone in front of them turns left or right at one of the exits their average speed will be ok. Average speed cameras are great in the tunnels and on certain motorways.

Funnily enough they work less well on motorways unless there are huge numbers of them. You would see it in France, people well over the speed limit and they stop and have coffee or tea at a service station just before the cameras to bring their average down. You have a large number of them across national and regional roads, maybe have ANPR linked to NCT and tax as well, and you will see, not everyone, but a large number of people staying within the limits because it is simply easier than trying to figure out if your OK or not. People are lazy, it is a fact, alot like opt out clauses. It won't fix everyone and there are those who will take great joy in figuring out how to work their morning coffee or sandwich stop into the drive but for the most part, you will see a shift in behaviour, although forced which will continue to the next generation.

Macy0161 · 08-10-2018 10:43am

meeeeh wrote: »

That's just more nonsense. I'm not apologist for anything if I point out you lack basic understanding what the role of speed camera vans is.

I know what they should be about. In this state, the same as every other thing, it's about being seen to be doing something. The camera in our village, could be effective, if they moved it around, varied the day, varied the direction it faced. They don't. I've been at the meetings that the gardai have quoted the number of checks it does. That doesn't make it effective, bar a very small stretch on specific days.

Spend time in the motors forum and tell me that enforcement on vehicles is effective in this state.

meeeeh · 08-10-2018 10:57am

CramCycle wrote: »

Funnily enough they work less well on motorways unless there are huge numbers of them. You would see it in France, people well over the speed limit and they stop and have coffee or tea at a service station just before the cameras to bring their average down. You have a large number of them across national and regional roads, maybe have ANPR linked to NCT and tax as well, and you will see, not everyone, but a large number of people staying within the limits because it is simply easier than trying to figure out if your OK or not.

The ting is 80kph or 100kph is very high speed limit. Where I live I couldn't speed especially on average even if I wanted to. There are stretches of the road where I could possibly drive more than 80kph if I felt particularly suicidal but you have to slow down completely when you are turning off. On average you'd be still under the speed limit. There is another factor, speed cameras on locations with less traffic can be a vandalised.

I don't know what the research says but average speed cameras are around for decades in Europe and they don't seem to be that popular outside tunnels while other types of speed cameras are more and more common and their numbers are significantly increasing.

meeeeh · 08-10-2018 11:04am

Macy0161 wrote: »

Spend time in the motors forum and tell me that enforcement on vehicles is effective in this state.

I don't need to spend time on motor forums to know how effective the enforcement in Ireland is. I was stopped or saw police more often driving on my holidays since moving to Ireland than actually in Ireland. Earlier this year my mum was fined for not indicating correctly on newly built roundabout.

As matter of fact I also know a cyclist who was breathalysed and fined for cycling drunk and going through the red light, that wouldn't happen in Ireland either. Road stats are still much better in Ireland than where I come from. But what actually changed things there in the recent years are draconian penalties that are collected by revenue. 20kmph over 50km speed limit will cost you 500 Euro (minimum net monthly income is 638) and it will be collected at source. If you don't pay revenue send the fine to the employer and they have to deduct certain percentage of wages until it's paid. But again that's completely separate from what the role of speed camera van is.

ford2600 · 08-10-2018 11:10am

Macy0161 wrote: »

I really don't see the behaviour changed to be honest.

20 years ago 400 plus were dying on our roads. 40 cyclist a year was the number not that long ago. We are looking at 150 for this year if current numbers stay the same.

In spite of near full employment, much bigger average mileage per driver, road death trend is downwards with a few blips. The trend is undeniable. They are facts.

With regard to speed/alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage there has been a seismic shift in attitudes and behaviour. I could tell countless stories of behaviours than were acceptable when I was a teenager and in my 20's which people would be afraid to tell no such is the taboo around them but would have been seen as funny at the time. I'm 43. (I'll add 3 below for demonstration) You might still hear them told in Kilgarvan...

We need a seismic shift with regard to phone usage.

You can have your opinion that reduction is down to just infrastructure but that ignores a huge societal change. Your subjective view is probably coloured by being regularly exposed as a vulnerable road user to the worst type of road user; a commuter (unpaid work) stressed in traffic on way to/or home from a job they probably don't enjoy.

I have in fairly past cycled/driven in more challenging environments Portugal/Sicily/Ukraine/Tanzania. Ireland was closer 20-25 years ago to those jurisdictions today than where we are now.

Of course we need to get much better.

* as a 15 year old I was one of 9 in a mini. Driver wouldn't have been drunk but not sober either. An eye wouldn't have been blinked at the time. Around that time a local publican used to fit half of under 14 team in his Fiat Ritmo and rally drive to games.
**Two local brothers used bring from local country pub anyone who wanted a spin to local town to night club. Probably 6/7 pints before leaving pub at minimum and 9/10 people crammed into car on way in. One night he was stopped on edge of town at a checkpoint. Guard asked him did he realise he had 7 passengers; "Jesus Christ guard two of them must be after falling out since I left pub I had 9 leaving village". No charge, no breathalyser, no conviction. Sh1t like that happened all over the country.

plodder · 08-10-2018 11:42am

You'd almost have to have cameras on every gantry on the M50. I reckon they will happen at the same time as variable speed limits, which could go as low as 60km/h at busy periods.

On other m-ways, maybe between every junction would do it, but the cost/benefit may be harder to justify. Also reminds me one time back in the day, in Germany I drove the transit motorway through East Germany from Munich to West Berlin. The East German police "pioneered" the use of average speed limits because they knew the exact time you crossed the border into the East and again when you left it to enter West Berlin. The idea kind of made sense because there was such a speed mismatch between the East German trabbies and Wartburgs as compared to the Westerners in their BMWs and Mercs. The trouble was of course, the Westies would just stop in a rest area near Berlin to kill time before crossing the border again.

ford2600 · 08-10-2018 11:49am

Rechuchote wrote: »

We could have automated cameras hidden in trees that can issue fines and send them out to speeders.

How do you propose we regularly calibrate all these cameras hidden in trees such that any evidence obtained in useable in a prosecution as per the relevant ISO/BS?

JMcL · 08-10-2018 12:26pm

Playing catch up here, been away for a few days

meeeeh wrote: »

So you don't want roads to be made safer and you get outraged when pedestrians are asked to adapt to the conditions on the roads to make themselves safer? OK.

Well, the problem is that if you make the road itself "safer" (remove the hedgerows, hard shoulder, etc. etc.) it encourages even faster driving as it's now considered a "great stretch of road". Other's have pointed out the ecological impact which is not insignificant - it's not just disrupting birds, it's the destruction of habitats for pollinators. What can be done is better traffic calming in villages. I'm not sure of the effectiveness of the narrow traffic calming bit at the entrance to villages frankly - it too often seems to be not much more than a target to aim for and creates a pinch point for cyclists. Maybe not speed bumps as they frequently seem to be in camoflage mode in this country, but chicanes (with bike/pedestrian access on the inside), even to the extent that cars can only go in one direction at a time. Latter is in place in the suburb of Paris my wive grew up in, and is seems to work well. I've seen them throughout France, in villages with little narrow streets that wouldn't be unsimilar to what was being discussed in Irish terms.

Open rural roads between villages are another matter - there's simply too many kilometers of them to do anything meaningful in terms of infrastructure

07Lapierre wrote: »

At least two were killed at junctions in Dublin City (HGV turning left)

The man killed at night was crossing the road near Christchurch Cathedral.

I'd have to look up the details regarding the others.

The guy killed in Waterford last December was on an 80kmph road - good quality and reasonable sightlines AFAIK at the point where it happened. It happened around 7am so it would be dark at that point and the road is unlit there.

ford2600 wrote: »

* as a 15 year old I was one of 9 in a mini. Driver wouldn't have been drunk but not sober either. An eye wouldn't have been blinked at the time. Around that time a local publican used to fit half of under 14 team in his Fiat Ritmo and rally drive to games..

I think our record was 8 in a Fiat 127, stopped by a guard who just shook his head and told us to get on an get them out quick as possible.

Not to mention the rush to be the one that gets to sit in the boot (usually with the dog). Contrast that to kids being secured in 5 point harnesses, booster seats with airbags etc and cars have become a lot safer. But again here, the feeling of personal safety contributes to a higher appetite for risk. Be it more powerful, safer cars (for the occupants), or in our own parish, somebody throwing themselves round hairpins on the wrong side of the road safe in the knowledge they have their foam hat on*

* I know I mentioned it, but please let's not go down that rabbit hole

Macy0161 · 08-10-2018 2:04pm

ford2600 wrote: »

With regard to speed/alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage there has been a seismic shift in attitudes and behaviour. I could tell countless stories of behaviours than were acceptable when I was a teenager and in my 20's which people would be afraid to tell no such is the taboo around them but would have been seen as funny at the time. I'm 43. (I'll add 3 below for demonstration) You might still hear them told in Kilgarvan...

We need a seismic shift with regard to phone usage.

Yes, on reflection you're right on stuff like overfilling and child safety (I think I was one of 12 in a car, sat on a knee, with a younger cousin on me knee. Maybe it was a big contributor to road deaths, but I'm not particularly aware of where it was families (as opposed to a load of youngsters, which unfortunately has still resulted in deaths in recent years)

However, I'm really not seeing the seismic shift to speed (and to a lesser degree alcohol). I would contend speeding is so endemic and accepted is the reason it's politically toxic to properly enforce. How can "shooting fish in a barrell" or "money making/ flash for cash" be so acceptable commentary to so many, if attitudes to speed had really changed?

I'm similar age as yourself. When I was the age of my eldest, I was off out on the bike all day long, walked to friends houses on rural roads etc. I won't let my 11 year old out like that, and I doubt my parents would given how the roads are either. No helmets or hi viz either (EverReady lamps or a bottle dynamo).

tomasrojo · 08-10-2018 7:23pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Except if you want to make sure that people don't speed and that part of the road is therefore a lot safer... Isn't that the aim? Actual garda manned speed checks can be for catching serious offenders.

As for average speed cameras I think they mostly work on motorways. Irish motorways are relatively empty and safe so I assume it would be more or less pointless. Average speed cameras on roads with turn off every 30 meters won't work (I think).

The idea should be that you never know when you'll be caught, so you'll stop speeding everywhere. But people love speeding and don't really think it's harmful, so we have this weird compromise.

AndrewJRenko · 08-10-2018 10:39pm

ford2600 wrote: »

With regard to speed/alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage there has been a seismic shift in attitudes and behaviour. I could tell countless stories of behaviours than were acceptable when I was a teenager and in my 20's which people would be afraid to tell no such is the taboo around them but would have been seen as funny at the time. I'm 43. (I'll add 3 below for demonstration) You might still hear them told in Kilgarvan...

We need a seismic shift with regard to phone usage.

We've had shifts on alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage all right, but I don't think we've had much of a shift on speed. RSA Speed Surveys show 3 or 4 out of 5 drivers breaking speed limits.

And phone use is endemic now. We are 2nd worst in Europe and the European League table of mobile phone abuse.

CramCycle · 08-10-2018 10:48pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

The idea should be that you never know when you'll be caught, so you'll stop speeding everywhere. But people love speeding and don't really think it's harmful, so we have this weird compromise.

People don't even think their speeding. Talk to most people about it. On country roads, shure i was at or below the limit, therefore I could not have been driving too fast, it's been an accepted defence in court. On motorways, look at here, facebook, twitter, all you hear are complaints, people saying we should have our motorways like the autobahn (typically people who have never been on an autobahn and don't realise how they operate), no need for a speed limit on our motorways.
I now avoid lifts with certain family members and friends because their driving is dangerous and offensive. They may not have had accidents but I don't want to be in the car when they do.

CramCycle · 08-10-2018 10:52pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We've had shifts on alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage all right, but I don't think we've had much of a shift on speed. RSA Speed Surveys show 3 or 4 out of 5 drivers breaking speed limits.

And phone use is endemic now. We are 2nd worst in Europe and the European League table of mobile phone abuse.

Interestingly I think we are the most honest about it to anonymous surveys, almost a silent F U to the establishment,

Rechuchote · 09-10-2018 7:56am

magicbastarder wrote: »

personally, i'd like to see the money spent on more gardai than on speed cameras. i know it shouldn't be either/or, but it is. especially with the week that's in it.

Not the same.

a) Automated cameras would be a lot cheaper, and would catch a lot more people and therefore cut the speeding rates far more because the word would spread.
b) Before looking for more gardaí we'd need a change in garda culture.
c) The gardaí that we actually need are to investigate things like people creeping around farmyards with lurchers and then creeping off with expensive farm machinery.
d) (not in answer to MB's post) It's not on the M50 that we need automated speed cameras - at least the first to be installed - so much as on urban and suburban junctions.
e) We badly need traffic policing - illegal parking, mobile phone use in cars, speeding to be separated from Garda work and done by a new and separate group who can issue tickets, like the old meter maids; we also need to automate a lot of it - for instance having front and back cameras on buses to automatically issue fines to people illegally driving in bus lanes.
f) We need a cultural change so that all of the above is seen as safety, and as important for individuals and society, rather than a shocking and mean interference in the rights of private citizens to post a funny picture on Instagram while swerving back and forth through traffic and red lights at speed.

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