Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

flazio · 19-06-2019 7:46pm

Going back to Ocon, I hate to say it, but with Mercedes Benz joining Formula e next season, I'm expecting Toto to announce Ocon as one of his drivers.

Frank Bullitt · 19-06-2019 7:50pm

https://twitter.com/harrismonkey/status/1141411929321279488

vectra · 19-06-2019 8:11pm

supremenovice wrote: »

Vettel has the speed but is mentally fragile. He has made far too many driver errors since he has been challenging Hamilton for the title since 2017. Even in his Red Bull days, when the pressure was on, he cracked.

There have been numerous races in his career where Hamilton hasn't turned up for one reason or another, but in the past couple years particularly, his game is to a level now where he is at almost 100% every race, every qualifying session. He is the best qualifier, the best wet weather driver, the best passer, the coolest under pressure, despite his whinging on the radio. And, believe it or not, I'm a Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari fan but I can not ignore what I see on screen every two weeks - Hamilton has the mental edge over him. As hard as it is for me to say - Hamilton is the best driver in F1 and one of the greatest of all time. Vettel, Rosberg - great champions in their own right, and Rosberg is possibly the most under-rated champ in history, but I can not put them up on the same level as Hamilton.

To be fair,
I can only assume it makes life a LOT easier when you have the best car week after week.

Sonny noggs · 19-06-2019 8:25pm

Hamilton lost a title to a teammate that plenty on here and elsewhere do not rate. As such Hamilton will never be considered an F1 great (outside of the UK), regardless of total title wins.

BikeRacer · 19-06-2019 11:08pm

:rolleyes:

Adamocovic · 20-06-2019 7:25am

I honestly don't get it. In my eyes both Hamilton and Vettel are F1 greats.

Always see people mention Hamilton losing out to Rosberg and hypotheticals about his car. He's also beaten Rosberg, Button and Alonso (albeit tied on points). My only real mark against Hamilton is I think he's not as good at managing his tyres as others but that doesn't take away from the fact he's one of the best.

Vettel is always labelled as fragile mentally which I don't agree with. Most drivers make mistakes but his are always highlighted, they're not paid much attention however when it's done during a winning season. Reason for it isn't because I think he's error prone, but rather he pushes the car a lot, maybe some critics who say he focuses more on trying to win the race than just taking the points is correct, but it's also brought him great success.

Obviously to be the world champion you need a good car, but if it was as easy as some think with a good car then Vettel and Hamiltons ex-teammates would have a few WCs under their belt during the same time. I don't see how you can win 4 or 5 WCs and still not be considered one of the greats.

I struggle to believe there is any or were any perfect drivers out there that had no criticisms to their name. No doubt once Vettel and Hamilton hang it up they'll be looked back at as two of the greats.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-06-2019 8:01am

eviltimeban wrote: »

It's hard to know if its down to natural talent, or just getting the mix right - right driver, right team, right car, right boss, right time.

I'd say all the drivers are at least on a reasonably similar level; we are seeing times within tenths of each other, not seconds. Where it differs is how the driver slots into the team. Sometimes it doesn't work when it should, and sometimes it works when no one expects it to.

Those who stand out, stand out. Like Verstappen. Hamilton stood out from day one. Someone like Hulk puts the hours in but hasn't had the chance to stand out. Their own motivation and drive (no pun intended) are critical really.

Hulk is an interesting one. I think he's proven himself to be... grand. He'd be a great no.2 driver but no.2 drivers are out of vogue at the moment. Where we clearly see no.2s, they tend to be young drivers.

Hulk was taken.on by Renault as team leader but as soon as they had the chance to sign a proper top tier driver in Danny Ric, they took it.

I think it's extraordinary that he has never scored a podium. But I think we have enough evidence to conclude he's not near the top tier of drivers either.

chicorytip · 20-06-2019 7:31pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

I think it's extraordinary that he has never scored a podium. But I think we have enough evidence to conclude he's not near the top tier of drivers either.

Grosjean, who is at a similar stage in his career, has eight podiums to his credit and is clearly a more talented driver yet will probably never get an opportunity either to drive for a top team. I have always been a fan of his and it would be great to see him in a Ferrari.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-06-2019 11:28pm

chicorytip wrote: »

Grosjean, who is at a similar stage in his career, has eight podiums to his credit and is clearly a more talented driver yet will probably never get an opportunity either to drive for a top team. I have always been a fan of his and it would be great to see him in a Ferrari.

Yes but Grosjean is very up and down. He seems to have become consistently bad this year though. Magnussen is under no threat from him. They tend to be together on track at the start of races and then Kmag gets the points and Grosjean doesn't.

I wouldn't pick Grosjean. I'd say he's under pressure for his Haas seat. He was in Contention for the Ferrari seat and got Haas as a Consolation and a trial to keep him sweet in case ferrari wanted him. Now they have LeClerc so they have absolutely no need of Grosjean.

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 8:21am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes but Grosjean is very up and down. He seems to have become consistently bad this year though. Magnussen is under no threat from him. They tend to be together on track at the start of races and then Kmag gets the points and Grosjean doesn't.

I wouldn't pick Grosjean. I'd say he's under pressure for his Haas seat. He was in Contention for the Ferrari seat and got Haas as a Consolation and a trial to keep him sweet in case ferrari wanted him. Now they have LeClerc so they have absolutely no need of Grosjean.

I agree he can be hot and cold, mentality being a key for him but think it's harsh to say he's been consistently bad in this year.

He's been unlucky with retirements. First with the wheelnut breaking due to more Haas pitstop errors (forcing it on), then from Stroll hitting into the back of him and eventually him retiring, and finally from Haas overheating his brakes to try warm his tyres.

The retirements this season don't really feel like they have been due to mistakes or problems with the driver. Also of the 4 races that he and Magnussen have both finished he's come out on top 3 times.

Needs a good run of no retirements but I wouldn't say he's been consistently bad, he's been consistently unlucky.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-06-2019 8:41am

Adamocovic wrote: »

I agree he can be hot and cold, mentality being a key for him but think it's harsh to say he's been consistently bad in this year.

He's been unlucky with retirements. First with the wheelnut breaking due to more Haas pitstop errors (forcing it on), then from Stroll hitting into the back of him and eventually him retiring, and finally from Haas overheating his brakes to try warm his tyres.

The retirements this season don't really feel like they have been due to mistakes or problems with the driver. Also of the 4 races that he and Magnussen have both finished he's come out on top 3 times.

Needs a good run of no retirements but I wouldn't say he's been consistently bad, he's been consistently unlucky.

Yeah actually that's fair. I was a bit harsh in my post. The retirements were unfortunate.

Id still say he's out if Ferrari's plans at the moment.

muckwarrior · 21-06-2019 10:13am

chicorytip wrote: »

Grosjean, who is at a similar stage in his career, has eight podiums to his credit and is clearly a more talented driver yet will probably never get an opportunity either to drive for a top team. I have always been a fan of his and it would be great to see him in a Ferrari.

I'd say Grosjean has only a very slightly higher chance of getting a Ferrari seat than me!

AMKC · 21-06-2019 10:38am

I think if Grosjean had of got the Ferrari seat instead of Vettel that Ferrari might have won the WDC either last year or even in 2017. Yes I agree he can be mentally unstable sometimes but so can Vettel and I think Grosjean would not have made the mistakes that Vettel made. Furthermore I think the reason he has had problems mentally is because he is not where he thought he would be by now which is a top team. I think if he was in a Top team he would be performing much better. Unfortunately like others have said I think he has missed out on his chances of driving for one of the front teams now.

pjohnson · 21-06-2019 11:35am

Sirotkin is now McLaren's reserve driver in addition to being Renault's reserve.

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 1:26pm

And Mercs cruise to another easy 1-2 in practice.

I know Ferrari have new aero parts but it's getting hard to imagine them coming close in qualifying after that.

Joeface · 21-06-2019 3:40pm

pjohnson wrote:

Sirotkin is now McLaren's reserve driver in addition to being Renault's reserve.

Williams said it about him last season he is very good at feed back and massive team player. Maybe Renault can use him more

Burkie1203 · 21-06-2019 3:40pm

Lewis under investigation for unsafe rejoin after going off track

quokula · 21-06-2019 3:44pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Lewis under investigation for unsafe rejoin after going off track

I haven't seen the incident, but based on the fact that it's Hamilton, you can pretty much guarantee no penalty.

pjohnson · 21-06-2019 3:59pm

Joeface wrote: »

Williams said it about him last season he is very good at feed back and massive team player. Maybe Renault can use him more

He has an actual masters degree in mechanical engineering iirc so yeah as far as test drivers go his input would be great.

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 4:59pm

quokula wrote: »

I haven't seen the incident, but based on the fact that it's Hamilton, you can pretty much guarantee no penalty.

He can have little to complain about.

Vettels drew controversy as it looked like a racing incident and how fast it all happened, plus the fact he didn't look in full control.

Lewis there today ended up going straight instead of turning, not sure what happened, hit the brakes, went wide, then swung it around off the track at a slow pace towards the track and entered near the turn or chicane if you wish as Verstappen was coming around who then swerved a bit lost control and went off the track.

The fact he had so much time makes it a stonewall one, just adds fuel to it after last weekend. I think he's turned around maturity wise so I can't imagine him trying to defend it as it would be extremely hypocritical. Best to put the hands up.

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 5:00pm

Also they rejected Sebs right to a review so can't see the Hamilton one going unpunished.

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 5:02pm

Just saw on twitter they announced there will be no follow up to it and it goes unpunished! Shocked really.

I know it was practice not the race but that's a bit gas. Especially with all that happened about unsafe entries over the last week.

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 5:03pm

https://twitter.com/Planet_F1/status/1142069932844343298?s=09

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 5:11pm

From their announcement sounds like Max did him a solid and said he felt no need to pursue punishment.

Gas for this an hour after from Vettel/Ferrari decision.

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 5:32pm

Will add one funny thing I found is one of the reasons stewards said there would be no punishment against Lewis was because he couldn't see Verstappen and was blind due to the angle of the car.

Re-entering from an angle blind to whats coming sounds more unsafe than a reason not to penalise! Haha

H3llR4iser · 21-06-2019 7:04pm

Adamocovic wrote: »

Also they rejected Sebs right to a review so can't see the Hamilton one going unpunished.

Yeah...they were never gonna accept Ferrari's case, it'd mean "we screwed up". Not now, not in a million years.

It's funny as the FIA statement for rejecting the review, basically, sounds like a child covering his ears and screaming really loud so he can't hear what going on around him...

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 7:10pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Yeah...they were never gonna accept Ferrari's case, it'd mean "we screwed up". Not now, not in a million years.

It's funny as the FIA statement for rejecting the review, basically, sounds like a child covering his ears and screaming really loud so he can't hear what going on around him...

I find it even funnier after the Lewis/Verstappen one today.

It's like a script. Hamilton involved and the centre of an investigation, no action taken and an hour after Seb/Ferrari were told they couldn't review there's.

Built up the drama perfectly. Although I normally want to see Leclerc win, or Dani (especially here for Renault) if Vettel won there would be some scenes. Unfortunately think it's safe to say it's going to be one of the two mercs. They dominated today

Frank Bullitt · 21-06-2019 8:47pm

No race thread for this one? Have we finally had enough?

pjohnson · 21-06-2019 9:10pm

Gintonious wrote: »

No race thread for this one? Have we finally had enough?

I dunno. Dont want to step on any toes making one.

skipper_G · 21-06-2019 9:11pm

Gintonious wrote: »

No race thread for this one? Have we finally had enough?

I thought about it, but honestly Canada has me more disillusioned than I thought possible. Didn't bother to watch any of Free Practice and I haven't posted all week because I've had nothing positive to say.

Should add, congrats to Vettel on getting married. That's a positive I guess

quokula · 21-06-2019 9:15pm

skipper_G wrote: »

I thought about it, but honestly Canada has me more disillusioned than I thought possible. Didn't bother to watch any of Free Practice and I haven't posted all week because I've had nothing positive to say.

Same here, I never missed a race from 1992 to mid 2018, but I just can't endure this awful hybrid formula anymore, there hasn't been a good reason to watch F1 in 7 years now.

I've missed about half the races so far this year (I'll still watch if I happen to be home and it's on, but no point planning my weekend around it anymore) - the last GP prompted me to cancel my long standing autosport subscription too.

Burkie1203 · 21-06-2019 10:07pm

Hamilton makes an error. Goes way off track because there is 15 million acres of run off and impedes another driver while re-entering track in unsafe manner. No issue according to stewards.

Vettel goes off in a race. Fights to keep car out of a wall. Race defining Penalty.

F1 is dead.

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 10:11pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Hamilton makes an error. Goes way off track because there is 15 million acres of run off and impedes another driver while re-entering track in unsafe manner. No issue according to stewards.

Vettel goes off in a race. Fights to keep car out of a wall. Race defining Penalty.

F1 is dead.

Personally for me I'd want neither punished but where's the consistency?

I know it's practice but the excuse of the stewards was laughable. Vettel on grass with less grip and space so sudden braking could cause a spin and God knows what is deemed unacceptable. But Hamilton not being able to see the incoming car because the line he re-entered is used as a valid excuse? Makes no sense.

Anyway at least something interesting before going through the motions of the race.

recyclebin · 21-06-2019 10:47pm

The most they were going to do to Hamilton was a fine. It's Friday practice....

Cool_CM · 21-06-2019 11:06pm

Slightly off-topic, and it should be about the Motorsport, but just saw that Muse are playing at the Singapore Grand Prix. Jesus, I'd love to be there for that!

Adamocovic · 21-06-2019 11:10pm

recyclebin wrote: »

The most they were going to do to Hamilton was a fine. It's Friday practice....

No one was expecting him to get a grid penalty or anything to affect his race weekend but I fail to see how this is just something to sit back and say "ok that's fine" to.

It's also entertaining timing that it has happened so soon after the debate about the rules and re-entry (which involved many current and ex drivers questioning the current system), and the decision to deny Ferrari a review.

In their rulebooks if I remember correctly was that the stewards are there to act with dangerous re joining for practice, qualifying and racing. It doesn't really specify differences between the sessions.

The fact that this happened so soon after, highlights the FIA rules and regulations issues and the lack of consistency.

You have drivers like Hulkenburg and Sainz who argue against the amount of rules and that these are just racing incidents and the FIA should scrap them, and you have the view of Verstappen who argued it shouldn't be given during the race and a review allowed after.

I'm siding with Verstappen more to at least begin with. Today a review was awarded with both drivers and teams before a decision was made regarding the re-joining, something they denied Ferrari the ability to do. If you can't find that gas and inconsistent fair enough.

I don't think the excuse of it being just practice is valid. Obviously it's in consideration when you review the effect the move or incident had because it's not as competitive but the inconsistencies were only highlighted more.

The fact that both incidents in short time involved Lewis and Seb means their fans will just argue in defence of their favourite driver over the other rather than debate about the rules and regulations of racing. It's been something that people have questioned for the last number of years and the last few weeks and how perfectly it's played out has highlighted some of the problems even more.

I'm hopeful that it may push for changes for future seasons but I wouldn't hold my breath.

mickdw · 22-06-2019 12:23am

The Renault seemed to be running crazy levels of rake in fp1. I know they have some new stuff but it looked very different.

AMKC · 22-06-2019 12:32am

quokula wrote: »

Same here, I never missed a race from 1992 to mid 2018, but I just can't endure this awful hybrid formula anymore, there hasn't been a good reason to watch F1 in 7 years now.

I've missed about half the races so far this year (I'll still watch if I happen to be home and it's on, but no point planning my weekend around it anymore) - the last GP prompted me to cancel my long standing autosport subscription too.

I also thought about starting one but did not want to in case someone else might and knowing this is the track that is hard to look at was not really bothered.

As for Autosport well that is long by its best.

There is Formula E live on tomorrow from Bern Switzerland. Should be good. Its on Quest from 16.30 and I will just watch the F1 Highlights after whenever I feel like it.

Mitch Connor · 22-06-2019 12:54am

Can't believe Hamilton got away with that. Should have put 5 seconds on the end of his practice time.

Harika · 22-06-2019 6:53am

The rule vettel was punished is for the race only, if you can prove that Hamilton has gained an advantage for the race on Sunday yesterday please go ahead and add 5 seconds

vectra · 22-06-2019 9:34am

Harika wrote: »

The rule vettel was punished is for the race only, if you can prove that Hamilton has gained an advantage for the race on Sunday yesterday please go ahead and add 5 seconds

What nonsense is this??
What has it got to do with "gaining an advantage"?
The issue I see is Hamilton forced another driver off the track !
IE
Rejoined in a dangerous manner.

Adamocovic · 22-06-2019 9:38am

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can't believe Hamilton got away with that. Should have put 5 seconds on the end of his practice time.

I know this is more in jest but feels it's missing the point, focusing more on Lewis than the question of the current setup.

Harika wrote: »

The rule vettel was punished is for the race only, if you can prove that Hamilton has gained an advantage for the race on Sunday yesterday please go ahead and add 5 seconds

I've mentioned it before but this is one of the negatives of it involving Lewis and Seb, yes their platforms brings attention to the issues but because of the divide between their fans it pushes it to focus more on the individual drivers than the criticisms of the rules. If you aren't actually a fan of either and just support the FIA and their current procedures fair enough.

Again it's not about seeking punishment for Lewis but it raises more questions against the FIA and the rule procedure. Maybe I'm mistaken but in the rule-book I don't think it specifically mentions the rule is only for race day but rather the advantage part is one of the judging criteria on unsafe re-joining of the track, so obviously during qualy an race day punishments are more the norm.

The problem like I've said, and many others, is that so shortly after the FIA refuse the request of being able to review a decision on re-joining, another one is then reviewed with the teams/drivers present to explain and make their case and come to a decision.

Timing makes it quite entertaining and the fact it involved one of the drivers from last time and also another one who was vocal after the race about rule reform. For once I actually am siding with Verstappen's opinion that incidents regarding re-joining should be open to review and unless contact has been made should probably be reviewed after the session.

It sounds like rule reform may be pushed by the drivers considering their responses, and I hope so, but do find it odd that after years of fans questioning the FIA and their implementation of rules, some fans are siding with them and don't see issues in the current setup.

Adamocovic · 22-06-2019 9:41am

Don't you know that there will be another re-joining incident during race day to add drama!

Also was hoping the Renaults would go strong this weekend but the practice results don't have it looking that way.

Rossi IRL · 22-06-2019 9:52am

Looked to me like Verstappen still had about 5 car widths of track to make the corner.

Not exactly identical to the Canada incident.

Now if Hamilton swerved back across the track onto the racing line forcing Verstappen to jam on the brakes then they would be near enough identical.

Edit: Not 5 but definitely 2 to 3 car widths

Adamocovic · 22-06-2019 10:00am

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Looked to me like Verstappen still had about 5 car widths of track to make the corner.

Not exactly identical to the Canada incident.

Now if Hamilton swerved back across the track onto the racing line forcing Verstappen to jam on the brakes then they would be near enough identical.

He definitely didn't have 5 car widths. Lewis rejoined the racing line through the chicane and why Verstappen went wide, lost a bit of grip and came off the track.

Lewis even put his hand up apologising straight after.

But again it's not really about the particular incident but rather how the FIA choose to enforce the rules.

Adamocovic · 22-06-2019 10:08am

Also why on earth did the light not change from green when Hamilton came off.

Very odd as they had plenty of time to react. Big error on their part.

skipper_G · 22-06-2019 10:14am

Harika wrote: »

The rule vettel was punished is for the race only, if you can prove that Hamilton has gained an advantage for the race on Sunday yesterday please go ahead and add 5 seconds

This is incorrect, it specifies in the sporting regulations that "pit lane and track discipline and safety measures shall be the same for all practice sessions as for the race".

The difference is in sanctions that can be applied, there are more options for a penalty in race than in practice. The choice for a free practice infringement is deletion of lap time(s), reprimand or grid drop. The Hamilton incident doesn't merit a grid drop, a reprimand would have been adequate.

eagle eye · 22-06-2019 10:14am

It wouldn't surprise me if their viewership figures are down and they are trying to cause a bit of controversy to get more people watching.

Harika · 22-06-2019 10:30am

skipper_G wrote: »

This is incorrect, it specifies in the sporting regulations that "pit lane and track discipline and safety measures shall be the same for all practice sessions as for the race".

The difference is in sanctions that can be applied, there are more options for a penalty in race than in practice. The choice for a free practice infringement is deletion of lap time(s), reprimand or grid drop. The Hamilton incident doesn't merit a grid drop, a reprimand would have been adequate.

Article 27.3 of the Sporting Regulations states: "Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining a lasting advantage.

The last five words are the key to the difference between the two incidents.

eagle eye · 22-06-2019 10:33am

Harika wrote:

The last five words are the key to the difference between the two incidents.

Sorry basically there is no consideration for racing incidents or for an uncontrolled car?

Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

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