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Potential bad dealership practice?

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  • 26-06-2020 8:31pm
    #1
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭


    so my brother bought a three year old jeep in the past few days off a used SIMI registered dealer , he traded in his old jeep against it and was pleasantly surprised with the trade value

    i discovered this morning having seen his new purchase and entered the reg number into motorcheck that it has two red warnings

    1. outstanding finance of the unit stocking kind

    2. when i entered the current reading on the odomoter , i noticed a major discrepancy , was advertised with 60,000 km and had 60,500 yesterday but a june 4th of this year reading on motorcheck lists the jeep as having 104,000 KM .

    i telephone him and while he says he received an email from the garage saying the finance will be gone next week and guarentees him that he is buying the vehicle finance free , the sales man told him that the previous CVRT test statements support their 60,000 km listing , brother sent me a whatsapp pic and the most recent CVRT test from early june does show the vehicle as having circa 60,000 KM

    while it looks like the dealer will clear the outstanding finance , it strikes me as very bad practice not to inform a customer of this before sale , add to that , would many who might have been interested in the vehicle but having decided to enter the jeeps details into the likes of motorcheck , not decide to run a mile when they discovered there as outstanding finance ? , surely there would be no surer way for a dealership to frighten off potential buyers by having finance outstanding , i imagine most people would not know what " unit stocking finance " was ? , i know i didnt know what it was

    on the odometer reading discrepancy , obviously a vehicle with 60,000 km would command a higher premium than one with 100,000 km on the clock , you wonder how many dealers potentially turn back the KM clock ?


    another thing which further unsettles him is that when my brother enquired about the vehicle he traded in , the sales man told him today that it was sold the day he traded it in , surely a change of ownership from my brother to the dealership needs to happen first before the dealer can sell on ? , it can take a week to change ownership by the time you post off the log book to shannon and the new proof of ownership is posted to the new owner ?

    can a dealer cut himself out of the transfer of ownership process and literally sell a car the day it arrives on his premises ?


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Comments

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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You should do motorcheck before you hand over money.
    Semi means nothing


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    #3
    ba_barabus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    If it's a legitimate dealership the outstanding finance should be cleared, once it's clear I wouldn't be hugely concerned as of yet.

    The mileage discrepancy could be due to someone entering 60k "miles" not kilometers by mistake. It happens.

    2 genuine concerns but I wouldn't be getting in a knot over either just yet.


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    #4
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    Agree, sounds like forecourt finance. It'd be an un-necessary complication to mention that to a prospective buyer. It's not the done thing.

    60km/100kms sounds like a miles to kms input or admin error.

    Dealers can buy and trade cars without needing to transfer the ownership via logbooks, again totally normal.

    No real issues there IMO.


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    #5
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Toyotafanboi wrote: »
    Agree, sounds like forecourt finance. It'd be an un-necessary complication to mention that to a prospective buyer. It's not the done thing.

    60km/100kms sounds like a miles to kms input or admin error.

    Dealers can buy and trade cars without needing to transfer the ownership via logbooks, again totally normal.

    No real issues there IMO.

    pardon my ignorance but why would a dealer not mention the outstanding finance when outstanding finance is surely the biggest red flag there is when buying a car ?

    the 104,000 KM odometer listing on motorcheck pre dates the most recent CVRT test by a week , its not like the CVRT admin team - staff could have mistakenly inputted 60,000 miles and then immedietely corrected it to 60,000 km , maybe if both happened the same day but like i said the motorcheck listing is from june 4th , the CVRT test with a 60,000 KM record was june 10th

    the salesman told my brother that some member of the public who ran a check might have inputted the 104,000 miles , that sounds extremely spurious , why would someone who didnt own the car do such a thing ?


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    #6
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,284 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Alot of the history check sites request that you input the mileage and theythen say if there is a discrepancy.
    It is possible that someone did put 60000 miles in when doing a check and that then goes down as a mileage record against that car.
    This very problem can be used too by clockers to explain away mileage mismatch so jury is out on this one.
    The finance is a non issue. Stocking finance will be cleared and to be honest if a dealer could clear this finance before the sale, they wouldnt need the finance to start with.
    The moral of the story here is not to depend on mileage check from the history sites - get a car with verifiable history instead.


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    #7
    Water2626262
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Water2626262


    Common enough for dealers to be late paying the wholesale finance, especially on used. Helps their cash flow if they are sloppy. Doubt a wholesale finance provider has ever taken a vehicle off a customer who bought it. They’d be chasing the dealer only.


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    #8
    Philb76
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Philb76


    mickdw wrote: »
    Alot of the history check sites request that you input the mileage and theythen say if there is a discrepancy.
    It is possible that someone did put 60000 miles in when doing a check and that then goes down as a mileage record against that car.
    This very problem can be used too by clockers to explain away mileage mismatch so jury is out on this one.
    The finance is a non issue. Stocking finance will be cleared and to be honest if a dealer could clear this finance before the sale, they wouldnt need the finance to start with.
    The moral of the story here is not to depend on mileage check from the history sites - get a car with verifiable history instead.

    Absolutely agree with this try and get service history I've done hpi checks on all the cars I've bought in the north and the hpi didn't tell a whole lot the problem now is the electronic service history and gdpr went up north with brother in law and his wife last year they wanted an a4 saw one in a dealer but no service book anymore rang Audi they said feck off gdpr bought car anyway took into Audi in Dublin for service thankfully history checked out but it is getting more risky with the second hand market now


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    #9
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    Its mad that because the Audi online service history doesnt violate any GDPR issues as far as my limited knowledge of GDPR goes. It literally only has the make and model, chassis number, the dealership the work was done in and what work was carried out. It doesn't have any of the owners info attached at all.


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    #10
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mickdw wrote: »
    Alot of the history check sites request that you input the mileage and theythen say if there is a discrepancy.
    It is possible that someone did put 60000 miles in when doing a check and that then goes down as a mileage record against that car.
    This very problem can be used too by clockers to explain away mileage mismatch so jury is out on this one.
    The finance is a non issue. Stocking finance will be cleared and to be honest if a dealer could clear this finance before the sale, they wouldnt need the finance to start with.
    The moral of the story here is not to depend on mileage check from the history sites - get a car with verifiable history instead.

    the service manual has one service recording by the dealer who sold the vehicle , stamped with 60,000 km on the clock in february

    is that what you mean by " verifiable " ?


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    #11
    Philb76
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Philb76


    Toyotafanboi wrote: »
    Its mad that because the Audi online service history doesnt violate any GDPR issues as far as my limited knowledge of GDPR goes. It literally only has the make and model, chassis number, the dealership the work was done in and what work was carried out. It doesn't have any of the owners info attached at all.

    Could literally not find out when car was serviced and if timing belt had been changed the dealer in the north was sourcing them from main dealers this was a six year old car too old for the forecourt so was taking his word for it and as i said he wasn't spoofing but only found this out when car was taken into Audi down here


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    #12
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    Ah, didnt realise it wasn't a main dealer you were dealing with. They wouldn't usually provide it to an independent workshop or dealer on request.


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    #13
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    manager sent him a signed letter today , guarenteing that the finance would be clear within a few days , thats sorted

    he also told him that his mechanics would notice if the odometer had been tampered with ?

    i suppose he will have to just trust him on that one , impossible to know for sure

    i suppose it goes to show that unless you buy new , you cant know for sure when it comes to many things


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    #14
    Eoinbmw
    Registered Users Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭Eoinbmw


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    manager sent him a signed letter today , guarenteing that the finance would be clear within a few days , thats sorted

    he also told him that his mechanics would notice if the odometer had been tampered with ?

    i suppose he will have to just trust him on that one , impossible to know for sure

    i suppose it goes to show that unless you buy new , you cant know for sure when it comes to many things
    OBD port is where the mileage would have been "corrected" no visual sign what so ever!


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    #15
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Eoinbmw wrote: »
    OBD port is where the mileage would have been "corrected" no visual sign what so ever!

    so the manager is talking BS ?


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    #16
    Eoinbmw
    Registered Users Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭Eoinbmw


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    so the manager is talking BS ?

    Potentially Yes!


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    #17
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,150 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    I've been buying second hand cars for along time now and I haven't experienced any of the above but maybe I just got lucky every time.

    People need to wise up and not be so naive when it comes to big purchases. Do proper background checks on the car and it's history before buying, not after. Research the seller also, it's a lot easier to get basic information about a car and a dealer these days in the 21st century but still some people just jump without looking where they are landing.


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    #18
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,284 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    the service manual has one service recording by the dealer who sold the vehicle , stamped with 60,000 km on the clock in february

    is that what you mean by " verifiable " ?

    Clearly not.
    I mean a clear and detailed history from new with dockets that can be verified by contacting the servicing dealer.
    Ome recent docket by the seller garage stinks and would almost convince me it was clocked.


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    #19
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mickdw wrote: »
    Clearly not.
    I mean a clear and detailed history from new with dockets that can be verified by contacting the servicing dealer.
    Ome recent docket by the seller garage stinks and would almost convince me it was clocked.

    any comeback ?


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    #20
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    just checked motorcheck there again



    Date Reading (MLs) Reading (KMs) Source
    26/06/2020 37,842 miles 60,900 km
    04/06/2020 65,011 miles 104,625 km INMR

    does INMR mean anything ?


    the dealer principal told my brother that this discrepancy was down to someone inputting the odometer details wrong , sounds a little too convenient

    this used dealership are meant to have a good reputation


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    #21
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,284 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    any comeback ?

    You bought what you.bought. nobody is bound to provide a history so the time to query these things is before you hand over the cash.
    Inmr is just irish national.milrage register or something like that. You could always contact the histpry check company and ask them for any info on the mileage records for that car.
    If.you.could find out that it is just a record of an entry from a person who was doing a history check, there is a possibility that its just an error.
    What year and model of car?


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    #22
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mickdw wrote: »
    You bought what you.bought. nobody is bound to provide a history so the time to query these things is before you hand over the cash.
    Inmr is just irish national.milrage register or something like that. You could always contact the histpry check company and ask them for any info on the mileage records for that car.
    If.you.could find out that it is just a record of an entry from a person who was doing a history check, there is a possibility that its just an error.
    What year and model of car?

    2017 landcruiser

    Brother bought!

    Would a Toyota main dealer be able to check to see if clocked now?

    Issues like timing belt arise if km much higher


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    #23
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,284 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    2017 landcruiser

    Brother bought!

    Big enough money - you would want to have it right.
    Any info on previous owner?


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    #24
    Philb76
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Philb76


    bazz26 wrote: »
    I've been buying second hand cars for along time now and I haven't experienced any of the above but maybe I just got lucky every time.

    People need to wise up and not be so naive when it comes to big purchases. Do proper background checks on the car and it's history before buying, not after. Research the seller also, it's a lot easier to get basic information about a car and a dealer these days in the 21st century but still some people just jump without looking where they are landing.

    Your missing the point bazz like you have bought and sold many cars and the problem now is when trying to find the history of the cars especially the premium brands with electronic service history main dealers won't tell you anything cos of gdpr so wot do you do if you buy a 4 year old Audi import that has not had an mot an hpi check won't tell you if the car has been serviced in Audi and they won't tell you until you bring the car into them so you don't know wot you have bought


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    #25
    Philb76
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Philb76


    Sorry for the thread hijacking OP I really hope it is all good for your brother and his purchase it's such a minefield now with second hand cars it's very hard to give good advice


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    #26
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,284 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Philb76 wrote: »
    Your missing the point bazz like you have bought and sold many cars and the problem now is when trying to find the history of the cars especially the premium brands with electronic service history main dealers won't tell you anything cos of gdpr so wot do you do if you buy a 4 year old Audi import that has not had an mot an hpi check won't tell you if the car has been serviced in Audi and they won't tell you until you bring the car into them so you don't know wot you have bought

    What ive done in the past is lie.
    I rand up a dealer with the reg of a car i was buying and said id bought this car and want to see if its due anything service wise.
    Not a bother he said. Looked up the main mercedes system and told me date of each time it was in at mercedes and it hadnt been seen by them for along time despite seller who was an importer claiming full mercedes history and that a print out would be supplied.
    Merc dealer here had full access to all uk service records at mercedes too.


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    #27
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,150 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    Philb76 wrote: »
    Your missing the point bazz like you have bought and sold many cars and the problem now is when trying to find the history of the cars especially the premium brands with electronic service history main dealers won't tell you anything cos of gdpr so wot do you do if you buy a 4 year old Audi import that has not had an mot an hpi check won't tell you if the car has been serviced in Audi and they won't tell you until you bring the car into them so you don't know wot you have bought

    My last few cars had electronic service histories and I was given basic information about them such as mileage at service intervals, information that wasn't in any way related to personal data or identification of previous owners. You just have to put the questions the right way otherwise it's a bit pointless having a digital service history if disclosing it is illegal.


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    #28
    Philb76
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Philb76


    Did you buy your latest cars in the last year lads reason i ask is all this gdpr stuff only came out about a year ago


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    #29
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Even the horse has bolted and nothing can be done if the garage did clock, can you get someone to check for sure to know if odometer was tampered with?


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    #30
    Philb76
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Philb76


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Even the horse has bolted and nothing can be done if the garage did clock, can you get someone to check for sure to know if odometer was tampered with?

    I know bwm dealers can plug into ECU and check true mileage at a cost don't know about the rest


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    #31
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    i suppose it goes to show that unless you buy new , you cant know for sure when it comes to many things

    I disagree. It really doesn't sound like there's anything wrong here, just that you want something to be wrong.
    Eoinbmw wrote: »
    OBD port is where the mileage would have been "corrected" no visual sign what so ever!

    No visual sign obviously, but any good scan tool can read the original mileage from the engine ECU amd see if there is a discrepancy between that and the display.


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