Potential bad dealership practice?

Mad_maxx · 26-06-2020 7:31pm #1

so my brother bought a three year old jeep in the past few days off a used SIMI registered dealer , he traded in his old jeep against it and was pleasantly surprised with the trade value

i discovered this morning having seen his new purchase and entered the reg number into motorcheck that it has two red warnings

1. outstanding finance of the unit stocking kind

2. when i entered the current reading on the odomoter , i noticed a major discrepancy , was advertised with 60,000 km and had 60,500 yesterday but a june 4th of this year reading on motorcheck lists the jeep as having 104,000 KM .

i telephone him and while he says he received an email from the garage saying the finance will be gone next week and guarentees him that he is buying the vehicle finance free , the sales man told him that the previous CVRT test statements support their 60,000 km listing , brother sent me a whatsapp pic and the most recent CVRT test from early june does show the vehicle as having circa 60,000 KM

while it looks like the dealer will clear the outstanding finance , it strikes me as very bad practice not to inform a customer of this before sale , add to that , would many who might have been interested in the vehicle but having decided to enter the jeeps details into the likes of motorcheck , not decide to run a mile when they discovered there as outstanding finance ? , surely there would be no surer way for a dealership to frighten off potential buyers by having finance outstanding , i imagine most people would not know what " unit stocking finance " was ? , i know i didnt know what it was

on the odometer reading discrepancy , obviously a vehicle with 60,000 km would command a higher premium than one with 100,000 km on the clock , you wonder how many dealers potentially turn back the KM clock ?

another thing which further unsettles him is that when my brother enquired about the vehicle he traded in , the sales man told him today that it was sold the day he traded it in , surely a change of ownership from my brother to the dealership needs to happen first before the dealer can sell on ? , it can take a week to change ownership by the time you post off the log book to shannon and the new proof of ownership is posted to the new owner ?

can a dealer cut himself out of the transfer of ownership process and literally sell a car the day it arrives on his premises ?

26-06-2020 7:32pm

You should do motorcheck before you hand over money.
Semi means nothing

ba_barabus · 26-06-2020 7:37pm

If it's a legitimate dealership the outstanding finance should be cleared, once it's clear I wouldn't be hugely concerned as of yet.

The mileage discrepancy could be due to someone entering 60k "miles" not kilometers by mistake. It happens.

2 genuine concerns but I wouldn't be getting in a knot over either just yet.

Toyotafanboi · 26-06-2020 8:20pm

Agree, sounds like forecourt finance. It'd be an un-necessary complication to mention that to a prospective buyer. It's not the done thing.

60km/100kms sounds like a miles to kms input or admin error.

Dealers can buy and trade cars without needing to transfer the ownership via logbooks, again totally normal.

No real issues there IMO.

Mad_maxx · 26-06-2020 8:46pm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Agree, sounds like forecourt finance. It'd be an un-necessary complication to mention that to a prospective buyer. It's not the done thing.

60km/100kms sounds like a miles to kms input or admin error.

Dealers can buy and trade cars without needing to transfer the ownership via logbooks, again totally normal.

No real issues there IMO.

pardon my ignorance but why would a dealer not mention the outstanding finance when outstanding finance is surely the biggest red flag there is when buying a car ?

the 104,000 KM odometer listing on motorcheck pre dates the most recent CVRT test by a week , its not like the CVRT admin team - staff could have mistakenly inputted 60,000 miles and then immedietely corrected it to 60,000 km , maybe if both happened the same day but like i said the motorcheck listing is from june 4th , the CVRT test with a 60,000 KM record was june 10th

the salesman told my brother that some member of the public who ran a check might have inputted the 104,000 miles , that sounds extremely spurious , why would someone who didnt own the car do such a thing ?

mickdw · 26-06-2020 9:10pm

Alot of the history check sites request that you input the mileage and theythen say if there is a discrepancy.
It is possible that someone did put 60000 miles in when doing a check and that then goes down as a mileage record against that car.
This very problem can be used too by clockers to explain away mileage mismatch so jury is out on this one.
The finance is a non issue. Stocking finance will be cleared and to be honest if a dealer could clear this finance before the sale, they wouldnt need the finance to start with.
The moral of the story here is not to depend on mileage check from the history sites - get a car with verifiable history instead.

Water2626262 · 26-06-2020 9:33pm

Common enough for dealers to be late paying the wholesale finance, especially on used. Helps their cash flow if they are sloppy. Doubt a wholesale finance provider has ever taken a vehicle off a customer who bought it. They’d be chasing the dealer only.

Philb76 · 26-06-2020 10:03pm

mickdw wrote: »

Alot of the history check sites request that you input the mileage and theythen say if there is a discrepancy.
It is possible that someone did put 60000 miles in when doing a check and that then goes down as a mileage record against that car.
This very problem can be used too by clockers to explain away mileage mismatch so jury is out on this one.
The finance is a non issue. Stocking finance will be cleared and to be honest if a dealer could clear this finance before the sale, they wouldnt need the finance to start with.
The moral of the story here is not to depend on mileage check from the history sites - get a car with verifiable history instead.

Absolutely agree with this try and get service history I've done hpi checks on all the cars I've bought in the north and the hpi didn't tell a whole lot the problem now is the electronic service history and gdpr went up north with brother in law and his wife last year they wanted an a4 saw one in a dealer but no service book anymore rang Audi they said feck off gdpr bought car anyway took into Audi in Dublin for service thankfully history checked out but it is getting more risky with the second hand market now

Toyotafanboi · 26-06-2020 10:08pm

Its mad that because the Audi online service history doesnt violate any GDPR issues as far as my limited knowledge of GDPR goes. It literally only has the make and model, chassis number, the dealership the work was done in and what work was carried out. It doesn't have any of the owners info attached at all.

Mad_maxx · 26-06-2020 10:19pm

mickdw wrote: »

Alot of the history check sites request that you input the mileage and theythen say if there is a discrepancy.
It is possible that someone did put 60000 miles in when doing a check and that then goes down as a mileage record against that car.
This very problem can be used too by clockers to explain away mileage mismatch so jury is out on this one.
The finance is a non issue. Stocking finance will be cleared and to be honest if a dealer could clear this finance before the sale, they wouldnt need the finance to start with.
The moral of the story here is not to depend on mileage check from the history sites - get a car with verifiable history instead.

the service manual has one service recording by the dealer who sold the vehicle , stamped with 60,000 km on the clock in february

is that what you mean by " verifiable " ?

Philb76 · 26-06-2020 11:22pm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Its mad that because the Audi online service history doesnt violate any GDPR issues as far as my limited knowledge of GDPR goes. It literally only has the make and model, chassis number, the dealership the work was done in and what work was carried out. It doesn't have any of the owners info attached at all.

Could literally not find out when car was serviced and if timing belt had been changed the dealer in the north was sourcing them from main dealers this was a six year old car too old for the forecourt so was taking his word for it and as i said he wasn't spoofing but only found this out when car was taken into Audi down here

Toyotafanboi · 27-06-2020 7:25am

Ah, didnt realise it wasn't a main dealer you were dealing with. They wouldn't usually provide it to an independent workshop or dealer on request.

Mad_maxx · 27-06-2020 9:34pm

manager sent him a signed letter today , guarenteing that the finance would be clear within a few days , thats sorted

he also told him that his mechanics would notice if the odometer had been tampered with ?

i suppose he will have to just trust him on that one , impossible to know for sure

i suppose it goes to show that unless you buy new , you cant know for sure when it comes to many things

Eoinbmw · 27-06-2020 9:42pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

manager sent him a signed letter today , guarenteing that the finance would be clear within a few days , thats sorted

he also told him that his mechanics would notice if the odometer had been tampered with ?

i suppose he will have to just trust him on that one , impossible to know for sure

i suppose it goes to show that unless you buy new , you cant know for sure when it comes to many things

OBD port is where the mileage would have been "corrected" no visual sign what so ever!

Mad_maxx · 27-06-2020 9:51pm

Eoinbmw wrote: »

OBD port is where the mileage would have been "corrected" no visual sign what so ever!

so the manager is talking BS ?

Eoinbmw · 27-06-2020 9:52pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

so the manager is talking BS ?

Potentially Yes!

bazz26 · 27-06-2020 9:52pm

I've been buying second hand cars for along time now and I haven't experienced any of the above but maybe I just got lucky every time.

People need to wise up and not be so naive when it comes to big purchases. Do proper background checks on the car and it's history before buying, not after. Research the seller also, it's a lot easier to get basic information about a car and a dealer these days in the 21st century but still some people just jump without looking where they are landing.

mickdw · 27-06-2020 10:06pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the service manual has one service recording by the dealer who sold the vehicle , stamped with 60,000 km on the clock in february

is that what you mean by " verifiable " ?

Clearly not.
I mean a clear and detailed history from new with dockets that can be verified by contacting the servicing dealer.
Ome recent docket by the seller garage stinks and would almost convince me it was clocked.

Mad_maxx · 27-06-2020 10:31pm

mickdw wrote: »

Clearly not.
I mean a clear and detailed history from new with dockets that can be verified by contacting the servicing dealer.
Ome recent docket by the seller garage stinks and would almost convince me it was clocked.

any comeback ?

Mad_maxx · 27-06-2020 10:36pm

just checked motorcheck there again

Date Reading (MLs) Reading (KMs) Source
26/06/2020 37,842 miles 60,900 km
04/06/2020 65,011 miles 104,625 km INMR

does INMR mean anything ?

the dealer principal told my brother that this discrepancy was down to someone inputting the odometer details wrong , sounds a little too convenient

this used dealership are meant to have a good reputation

mickdw · 27-06-2020 10:52pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

any comeback ?

You bought what you.bought. nobody is bound to provide a history so the time to query these things is before you hand over the cash.
Inmr is just irish national.milrage register or something like that. You could always contact the histpry check company and ask them for any info on the mileage records for that car.
If.you.could find out that it is just a record of an entry from a person who was doing a history check, there is a possibility that its just an error.
What year and model of car?

Mad_maxx · 27-06-2020 10:54pm

mickdw wrote: »

You bought what you.bought. nobody is bound to provide a history so the time to query these things is before you hand over the cash.
Inmr is just irish national.milrage register or something like that. You could always contact the histpry check company and ask them for any info on the mileage records for that car.
If.you.could find out that it is just a record of an entry from a person who was doing a history check, there is a possibility that its just an error.
What year and model of car?

2017 landcruiser

Brother bought!

Would a Toyota main dealer be able to check to see if clocked now?

Issues like timing belt arise if km much higher

mickdw · 27-06-2020 10:59pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

2017 landcruiser

Brother bought!

Big enough money - you would want to have it right.
Any info on previous owner?

Philb76 · 27-06-2020 11:02pm

bazz26 wrote: »

I've been buying second hand cars for along time now and I haven't experienced any of the above but maybe I just got lucky every time.

People need to wise up and not be so naive when it comes to big purchases. Do proper background checks on the car and it's history before buying, not after. Research the seller also, it's a lot easier to get basic information about a car and a dealer these days in the 21st century but still some people just jump without looking where they are landing.

Your missing the point bazz like you have bought and sold many cars and the problem now is when trying to find the history of the cars especially the premium brands with electronic service history main dealers won't tell you anything cos of gdpr so wot do you do if you buy a 4 year old Audi import that has not had an mot an hpi check won't tell you if the car has been serviced in Audi and they won't tell you until you bring the car into them so you don't know wot you have bought

Philb76 · 27-06-2020 11:06pm

Sorry for the thread hijacking OP I really hope it is all good for your brother and his purchase it's such a minefield now with second hand cars it's very hard to give good advice

mickdw · 27-06-2020 11:12pm

Philb76 wrote: »

Your missing the point bazz like you have bought and sold many cars and the problem now is when trying to find the history of the cars especially the premium brands with electronic service history main dealers won't tell you anything cos of gdpr so wot do you do if you buy a 4 year old Audi import that has not had an mot an hpi check won't tell you if the car has been serviced in Audi and they won't tell you until you bring the car into them so you don't know wot you have bought

What ive done in the past is lie.
I rand up a dealer with the reg of a car i was buying and said id bought this car and want to see if its due anything service wise.
Not a bother he said. Looked up the main mercedes system and told me date of each time it was in at mercedes and it hadnt been seen by them for along time despite seller who was an importer claiming full mercedes history and that a print out would be supplied.
Merc dealer here had full access to all uk service records at mercedes too.

bazz26 · 27-06-2020 11:13pm

Philb76 wrote: »

Your missing the point bazz like you have bought and sold many cars and the problem now is when trying to find the history of the cars especially the premium brands with electronic service history main dealers won't tell you anything cos of gdpr so wot do you do if you buy a 4 year old Audi import that has not had an mot an hpi check won't tell you if the car has been serviced in Audi and they won't tell you until you bring the car into them so you don't know wot you have bought

My last few cars had electronic service histories and I was given basic information about them such as mileage at service intervals, information that wasn't in any way related to personal data or identification of previous owners. You just have to put the questions the right way otherwise it's a bit pointless having a digital service history if disclosing it is illegal.

Philb76 · 27-06-2020 11:20pm

Did you buy your latest cars in the last year lads reason i ask is all this gdpr stuff only came out about a year ago

Mad_maxx · 27-06-2020 11:24pm

Even the horse has bolted and nothing can be done if the garage did clock, can you get someone to check for sure to know if odometer was tampered with?

Philb76 · 27-06-2020 11:29pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Even the horse has bolted and nothing can be done if the garage did clock, can you get someone to check for sure to know if odometer was tampered with?

I know bwm dealers can plug into ECU and check true mileage at a cost don't know about the rest

Toyotafanboi · 28-06-2020 9:26am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i suppose it goes to show that unless you buy new , you cant know for sure when it comes to many things

I disagree. It really doesn't sound like there's anything wrong here, just that you want something to be wrong.

Eoinbmw wrote: »

OBD port is where the mileage would have been "corrected" no visual sign what so ever!

No visual sign obviously, but any good scan tool can read the original mileage from the engine ECU amd see if there is a discrepancy between that and the display.

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 11:40am

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

I disagree. It really doesn't sound like there's anything wrong here, just that you want something to be wrong.

No visual sign obviously, but any good scan tool can read the original mileage from the engine ECU amd see if there is a discrepancy between that and the display.

Hi Toyota, not sure why someone would "want something to be wrong " ?

If he got the vehicle checked by a garage with the proper scan tool and it turned out there was an unmistakable discrepancy would that be grounds for the dealer taking back the vehicle?

mickdw · 28-06-2020 1:25pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Hi Toyota, not sure why someone would "want something to be wrong " ?

If he got the vehicle checked by a garage with the proper scan tool and it turned out there was an unmistakable discrepancy would that be grounds for the dealer taking back the vehicle?

Yes.
I change in the law a couple of years ago made a motor business directly responsible if they sold a clocked vehicle. Before that they could muddy the waters and say they bought it in that way and were none the wiser. We therefore had multiple dodgy traders passing stock around and clocking along the way. This is no longer an excuse. If its clocked and they sold it you, its their problem.
Next you will find is that they have put 60k miles on the sales docket and say they disclosed the discrepancy.

colm_mcm · 28-06-2020 1:34pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

just checked motorcheck there again

Date Reading (MLs) Reading (KMs) Source
26/06/2020 37,842 miles 60,900 km
04/06/2020 65,011 miles 104,625 km INMR

does INMR mean anything ?

the dealer principal told my brother that this discrepancy was down to someone inputting the odometer details wrong , sounds a little too convenient

this used dealership are meant to have a good reputation

See what the service history says.

INMR is where garages do work on vehicles and input the mileage, that them gets sent to a central database. It’s entirely possible and probable that they put in mikes instead of km.

As said, the service history would clear this up very quickly.

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 1:51pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

See what the service history says.

INMR is where garages do work on vehicles and input the mileage, that them gets sent to a central database. It’s entirely possible and probable that they put in mikes instead of km.

As said, the service history would clear this up very quickly.

The input mistake explanation is a little too convenient and more importantly perhaps

104000 km is 64000 miles ,the odometer reads only above 60000 km so it's difficult to see someone mistakenly inputting 64000 miles ?

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 1:59pm

The only service stamp in the manual is from February of this year and reads 59800 km

That reading pre dates the MotorCheck reading of 104000 km from early June and the CVRT reading of 60200 km from June 10th

On the point of servicing, I've always been over cautious about servicing, never let it go more than a year or 15000 km ,if it's the case that this landcruiser saw it's first service at 59000 km ,would it be guaranteed to have caused some damage?

I've driven the vehicle and apart from being in mint condition, I saw no obvious faults, suppose I'm wondering if a late first service will inevitably present problems down the line?

Jeep was originally sold by Toyota dealer in carlow despite the Dublin reg ,i suppose that dealer would be prohibited from passing on the original purchaser's identity under GDPR ?

Were it the case that the dealer is unreliable, would be good to talk to original owner

maestroamado · 28-06-2020 2:11pm

There is an easy way to check but how to get the info i do not know.
Jeeps are tested each year so it be recorded when the vehicle tested.
If there is a problem i am sure this info can be accessed.
This info is available online in UK and it should be here but its not.
I think if you mention this in nice email to garage you may find the answer.
No garage wants to be involved in this type of practice???
On re-reading your last message, is the service stamp from the place it was bought?
This would seriously piss me off.

Change of owner, under normal circumstances it is up to the seller to send off the document with the new owner.
However there may be different rules when selling to the trade...

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 2:22pm

maestroamado wrote: »

There is an easy way to check but how to get the info i do not know.
Jeeps are tested each year so it be recorded when the vehicle tested.
If there is a problem i am sure this info can be accessed.
This info is available online in UK and it should be here but its not.
I think if you mention this in nice email to garage you may find the answer.
No garage wants to be involved in this type of practice???
On re-reading your last message, is the service stamp from the place it was bought?
This would seriously piss me off.

Change of owner, under normal circumstances it is up to the seller to send off the document with the new owner.
However there may be different rules when selling to the trade...

the only service stamp in the service manual is from the used car dealer and it reads 59800 from februrary

why would that piss you off ?

it would be worse had the dealer who sold it to my brother didnt service it at all

maestroamado · 28-06-2020 2:25pm

mickdw wrote: »

Yes.
I change in the law a couple of years ago made a motor business directly responsible if they sold a clocked vehicle. Before that they could muddy the waters and say they bought it in that way and were none the wiser. We therefore had multiple dodgy traders passing stock around and clocking along the way. This is no longer an excuse. If its clocked and they sold it you, its their problem.
Next you will find is that they have put 60k miles on the sales docket and say they disclosed the discrepancy.

If the odometer is in km i be surprised if garage can change to miles on sale invoice, that would be immediately suspicious and more especially from a garage...

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 2:30pm

mickdw wrote: »

Yes.
I change in the law a couple of years ago made a motor business directly responsible if they sold a clocked vehicle. Before that they could muddy the waters and say they bought it in that way and were none the wiser. We therefore had multiple dodgy traders passing stock around and clocking along the way. This is no longer an excuse. If its clocked and they sold it you, its their problem.
Next you will find is that they have put 60k miles on the sales docket and say they disclosed the discrepancy.

i just remembered that the dealer principal told my brother yesterday that he would get on to motorcheck to resolve the discrepancy issue , you would wonder why he wanted to do that when he had the thing sold ? , my brother disclosed to the manager that he had discovered the discrepancy on motorcheck , he sort of had to in order for his protest to have any validity

maestroamado · 28-06-2020 2:31pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the only service stamp in the service manual is from the used car dealer and it reads 59800 from februrary

why would that piss you off ?

it would be worse had the dealer who sold it to my brother didnt service it at all

So your brother is happy all is ok.
You gave the impression from your post the odometer was altered.
In was not talking about the service i was talking about odometer change...

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 2:33pm

maestroamado wrote: »

So your brother is happy all is ok.
You gave the impression from your post the odometer was altered.
In was not talking about the service i was talking about odometer change...

you referred to the service stamp in your post , it was a simple mistake - misinterpretation on my part

i get you now , that the dealer stamped the vehicle as having 59000 km on the day it was serviced in february but an odometer reading of 104000 km showed up in early june on motorcheck , would indeed piss someone off

maestroamado · 28-06-2020 2:47pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

you referred to the service stamp in your post , it was a simple mistake - misinterpretation on my part

i get you now , that the dealer stamped the vehicle as having 59000 km on the day it was serviced in february but an odometer reading of 104000 km showed up in early june on motorcheck , would indeed piss someone off

Your post # 36 is where i got my information.
It may have done 40,000 in a few months...

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 3:56pm

maestroamado wrote: »

Your post # 36 is where i got my information.
It may have done 40,000 in a few months...

yes ,like I said, I misinterpreted you earlier

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 3:56pm

maestroamado wrote: »

Your post # 36 is where i got my information.
It may have done 40,000 in a few months...

yes ,like I said, I misinterpreted you earlier

iomusicdublin · 28-06-2020 4:56pm

I would call Toyota and ask for thie service history, it seems funny that the garage only have one service on record when the jeep should have had at least 3 services.

Is it an import

Also SIMI is the motor dealers own organisation. It is a pile of hit.

Mad_maxx · 28-06-2020 5:34pm

iomusicdublin wrote: »

I would call Toyota and ask for thie service history, it seems funny that the garage only have one service on record when the jeep should have had at least 3 services.

Is it an import

Also SIMI is the motor dealers own organisation. It is a pile of hit.

brother asked was it a UK import but was told no by the salesman

motorcheck says its 100% irish but like i said earlier , it was originally bought at the toyota dealer in carlow and has the stamp of SA moore , seems odd it would then have a D reg ? , add to that , if someone from dublin bought a vehicle in carlow , its probable they might not get it serviced there ? , if there are no service stamps apart from two days after it arrived with the used car dealer , its quite possible , that was the first time it was ever serviced

brother asked was it a UK import but was told no by the salesman

he should have been more careful , thats for sure

Philb76 · 28-06-2020 6:05pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

brother asked was it a UK import but was told no by the salesman

motorcheck says its 100% irish but like i said earlier , it was originally bought at the toyota dealer in carlow and has the stamp of SA moore , seems odd it would then have a D reg ? , add to that , if someone from dublin bought a vehicle in carlow , its probable they might not get it serviced there ? , if there are no service stamps apart from two days after it arrived with the used car dealer , its quite possible , that was the first time it was ever serviced

brother asked was it a UK import but was told no by the salesman

he should have been more careful , thats for sure

It's very common for Dublin people to buy cars down the country for a better deal and still request a Dublin reg it's only if you import then reg will be county you are resident

Philb76 · 28-06-2020 6:07pm

Does your brother have the logbook yet

bazz26 · 28-06-2020 6:10pm

OP, I think you are now looking for conspiracies where there are none.

Marcusm · 28-06-2020 6:29pm

Philb76 wrote: »

It's very common for Dublin people to buy cars down the country for a better deal and still request a Dublin reg it's only if you import then reg will be county you are resident

The reg is based on the address of the first owner. If someone from Malin Head goes to west Cork to buy a car, it gets a DL reg unless they fiddle or **** with the paperwork.

Potential bad dealership practice?

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