Hate crime? Really?

StinkyMunkey · 14-04-2019 12:26pm

This is far from a hate crime.

It was anti social behaviour by 2 little sh1ts, it was also demeaning and disrespectful.

recedite · 14-04-2019 1:19pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

I'm a 5 foot tall man and years ago at a house party my "friends" put me into a dishwasher box and sealed it shut. They then put it into a van and drove to a volcano and threw me in.

Well, don't just leave us hanging...
How did you escape from the volcano?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 14-04-2019 1:22pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's not a hate crime.

And anyway, the idea of a hate crime is bullsh1t. It's either a crime or it's not a crime.

Well, no, there are lots of different categories of crimes. Even under the banner of killing another, there are categories.

A burglary isn’t a hate crime. The murder of James Byrd in the US in 1998 was.

I personally wouldn’t class the story in the OP as a hate crime. It was just classic opportunistic cowardice. I have a friend with dwarfism. You wouldn’t believe the absolute shit he has to put up with all the time. It’s just probably the same for this poor woman. I don’t blame her for feeling vulnerable and sensitive to these happenings.

ohnonotgmail · 14-04-2019 3:45pm

grindle wrote: »

Yeah but loik, not according to Oirish law or anything. Therefore not real hate despite clear prejudice and a clearly hateful despicable act.

The gardai disagree with you.

https://www.garda.ie/en/Crime/Hate-crime/What-is-hate-crime-.html

‘Any incident which is perceived by the victim or any other person as being motivated by hate, based on a person’s age, race, ethnicity, religious belief, gender identity, disability, or sexual orientation’ .

Teddy Daniels · 14-04-2019 4:07pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

If anyone sees behavior that insults the victim here then report it to a mod. The parts I discussed were to do with the nature of 'Hate crime' and I think many have commented on the same but I would have no time for people insulting someone else.

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Well we know she’s not happy...that narrows it down to six...

Well this one suggests she’s one of the 7 dwarfs but it was let off by the mods.

Teddy Daniels · 14-04-2019 4:08pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The gardai disagree with you.

https://www.garda.ie/en/Crime/Hate-crime/What-is-hate-crime-.html

You think that Dwarves are a different race ?

ohnonotgmail · 14-04-2019 4:18pm

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

You think that Dwarves are a different race ?

try and think before you post. seriously.

‘Any incident which is perceived by the victim or any other person as being motivated by hate, based on a person’s age, race, ethnicity, religious belief, gender identity, disability, or sexual orientation’ .

Trump Is Right · 14-04-2019 4:18pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The gardai disagree with you.

https://www.garda.ie/en/Crime/Hate-crime/What-is-hate-crime-.html

Right, but how do you prove that these pair of clowns actually harbour hatred towards midgets?

Leapfrogging over someone doesn't prove you hate them? Unless they shouted something discriminatory before or after the incident, you cannot actually prove hatred.

AndrewJRenko · 14-04-2019 4:19pm

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

You think that Dwarves are a different race ?

Her condition is indeed a disability.

I wonder how many of the big lads with the little jokes have been invited to Davos to hang out with Christine Lagarde, Will I Am, Oprah and more?

https://extra.ie/2019/01/26/entertainment/celebrity/irish-activist-sinead-burke-tells-davos-disabled-people-need-platforms

ohnonotgmail · 14-04-2019 4:20pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Right, but how do you prove that these pair of clowns actually harbour hatred towards midgets?

Leapfrogging over someone doesn't prove you hate them? Unless they shouted something discriminatory before or after the incident, you cannot actually prove hatred.

I dont have to prove anything. Anybody who isnt a **** knows what this was.

AndrewJRenko · 14-04-2019 4:21pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Right, but how do you prove that these pair of clowns actually harbour hatred towards midgets?

Leapfrogging over someone doesn't prove you hate them? Unless they shouted something discriminatory before or after the incident, you cannot actually prove hatred.

You don't need to prove hatred. You show that it was perceived as hatred, to meet the definition above.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 14-04-2019 4:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The criminality itself was not the point of the thread. If you want to open another thread about how awful the criminality itself was, go right ahead.

And it was rather unpleasant. Not as bad as being raped or murdered though.

Ah, well if she wasn't raped or murdered then wtf is she complaining for? She should just take it on the chin and stop being so sensitive, right? :rolleyes:

What exactly is the point of comparing a crime with another, especially on somebodies behalf.

Blueshoe wrote: »

Like all species the strongest survive. Anyone different from the herd will get picked on or treated different. It's primal man. All the virtue signalling in the world isn't going to change that

IF that's the case, then it's ok to murder somebody on the street and take their stuff. Survival of the fittest and all that... what utter nonsense. This statement shows how little you actually know about the animal kingdom. Not all species act how you describe. Some actually take care of their sick and injured.

While some animals may be treated differently (mainly down to resources), it's not the default behavior.

It's unfortunate that these degenerates will go about their lives as normal, while harassing the public. Nothing will change until the justice system is overhauled.

Trump Is Right · 14-04-2019 4:26pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont have to prove anything. Anybody who isnt a **** knows what this was.

Well someone does, if they are seeking action to be taken against these guys.

If you can't prove a motivation of hatred behind their actions, how can you call it such?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You don't need to prove hatred. You show that it was perceived as hatred, to meet the definition above.

That's only in order to make the accusation. If you wanted anyone to be punished for a hate crime, you need to prove that their motivation for the leapfrogging was indeed hatred... rather than just an opportunistic moment to do something dumb for a laugh! (yes at someone else's expense, but this still does not automatically mean hatred of that person!)

Sardonicat · 14-04-2019 4:27pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

Like all species the strongest survive. Anyone different from the herd will get picked on or treated different. It's primal man. All the virtue signalling in the world isn't going to change that

Did you learn that in eugenics 101?
Blueshoe and brown shirt, eh?

ohnonotgmail · 14-04-2019 4:35pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Well someone does, if they are seeking action to be taken against these guys.

If you can't prove a motivation of hatred behind their actions, how can you call it such?

That's only in order to make the accusation. If you wanted anyone to be punished for a hate crime, you need to prove that their motivation for the leapfrogging was indeed hatred... rather than just an opportunistic moment to do something dumb for a laugh! (yes at someone else's expense, but this still does not automatically mean hatred of that person!)

Your ignorance is showing. You have not got a clue what you are talking about.

Ash.J.Williams · 14-04-2019 4:40pm

I don't know what schools are like now but coming to our school for a talk would be comical

Trump Is Right · 14-04-2019 4:40pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Your ignorance is showing. You have not got a clue what you are talking about.

I seem to know more than you... :rolleyes:

You're just quoting a website, without providing anything else to back it up.

Anyone can make an allegation of a crime that they perceive to be motivated by hatred... but they need to prove a motivation of hatred.

Leapfrogging over someone, does not prove you hate them or other people like them!

14-04-2019 4:41pm

Your Face wrote: »

I don't think we should overlook her story of being publicly belittled.
I know it might be low on the list of hate crimes but we shouldnt look down on anyone.

Is this a pun of the year joke contribution??

beLITTLED? OVERlook? LOW on the list?? look DOWN on? Alan carr stuff ...
it's a s funny as being called a hate crime.

Gimme A Pound · 14-04-2019 4:43pm

I don't know if it was a hate crime either but wording is not as big a deal as what was done to the woman, and what she has to put up with constantly.

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

Well this one suggests she’s one of the 7 dwarfs but it was let off by the mods.

No it wasn't. He got banned.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 14-04-2019 4:43pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

I seem to know more than you... :rolleyes:

You're just quoting a website, without providing anything else to back it up.

Anyone can make an allegation of a crime that they perceive to be motivated by hatred... but they need to prove a motivation of hatred.

Leapfrogging over someone, does not prove you hate them or other people like them!

Omitting evidence doesn't make you right. One nudged the other, pointed at her and both laughed, then proceeded to assault her. It's quite clear that she was targeted due to her size. You can argue otherwise, but it will be difficult.

14-04-2019 4:44pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

I seem to know more than you... :rolleyes:

You're just quoting a website, without providing anything else to back it up.

Anyone can make an allegation of a crime that they perceive to be motivated by hatred... but they need to prove a motivation of hatred.

Leapfrogging over someone, does not prove you hate them or other people like them!

It's always interesting how many people on the right or perhaps the alt-right are only consumed by linguistics when it involves a socio-political debate.. "I can't be homophobic because I don't fear the gays"

In this case, an act of hate is referring to the act of having contempt for a person's rights and their dignity. Whether you show such contempt because of a dislike for them, or sheer apathy towards another human being's feelings, to be so contemptuous is a hateful act.

ohnonotgmail · 14-04-2019 4:48pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

I seem to know more than you... :rolleyes:

You're just quoting a website, without providing anything else to back it up.

Anyone can make an allegation of a crime that they perceive to be motivated by hatred... but they need to prove a motivation of hatred.

Leapfrogging over someone, does not prove you hate them or other people like them!

Your ignorance is that you think that there is an actual offence called "hate crime".

AtomicHorror · 14-04-2019 4:52pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

Like all species the strongest survive. Anyone different from the herd will get picked on or treated different. It's primal man. All the virtue signalling in the world isn't going to change that

This must be one of the most moronic interpretations of evolution-as-life-philosophy I've seen in years.

Hey, I'm going to adopt gravity as a life philsophy. Stuff falls down. It's primal, man. If people are lying down, they can't get up. Airplanes are immoral. Birds are a government conspiracy.

Trump Is Right · 14-04-2019 4:55pm

Arjun Low Visa wrote: »

Omitting evidence doesn't make you right. One nudged the other, pointed at her and both laughed, then proceeded to assault her. It's quite clear that she was targeted due to her size. You can argue otherwise, but it will be difficult.

The fact she was a midget, doesn't prove they harbour any hatred of midgets. It could have been purely a dumb opportunistic moment. They quite possibly don't give a fuc what or who she is... they were just out for dumb laughs!

Did they physically or verbally assault her based on her disability?

I seen something similar with an eircom worker... some young scroat (of the tracksuit wearing variety) decided to leapfrogg over this worker while he was on the ground fixing something in one of those electricity boxes...

I doubt those kids harbour any hatred for eircom workers... they just saw an opportunity for cheap laughs at someone else's expense! :P

People are too quick to label everything these days, and invent some huge outrage... when it's quite possible that this was just some bored knuckleheads with nothing better to do than make stupid videos of stupid **** they get up to!

Not a hate crime... just idiot kids doing dumb ****... (probably) :pac:

AndrewJRenko · 14-04-2019 5:02pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Did they physically or verbally assault her based on her disability?

Yes.

Trump Is Right · 14-04-2019 5:06pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In this case, an act of hate is referring to the act of having contempt for a person's rights and their dignity. Whether you show such contempt because of a dislike for them, or sheer apathy towards another human being's feelings, to be so contemptuous is a hateful act.

I'll omit the first part of your post, as it's not really relevant to me... and you were rambling a touch!

I'm not saying this was a particularly polite thing that these chaps did to this woman... but there is a very high probability that they were simply doing dumb **** for a laugh.

Not everything in life is some kind of giant outrage. Maybe if we were talking about a group or individual that continually seeks out minorities for ridicule based on their disability, race, etc... then you might have a point.

This seems more like a case of dumb kids doing dumb opportunistic **** for a laugh!

But I will of course stand to be corrected, if it turns out these chaps have some kind of longstanding record of targeting certain individuals in society. I highly doubt that is the case here though... very unlikely!

AtomicHorror · 14-04-2019 5:10pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

The fact she was a midget, doesn't prove they harbour any hatred of midgets. It could have been purely a dumb opportunistic moment. They quite possibly don't give a fuc what or who she is... they were just out for dumb laughs!

Many people with dwarfism consider "midget" an offensive label. You almost certainly know this, but let's play benefit of the doubt. Since the term makes no useful distinction in this discussion, how about you stop using it?

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Did they physically or verbally assault her based on her disability?

I seen something similar with an eircom worker... some young scroat (of the tracksuit wearing variety) decided to leapfrogg over this worker while he was on the ground fixing something in one of those electricity boxes...

I doubt those kids harbour any hatred for eircom workers... they just saw an opportunity for cheap laughs at someone else's expense! :P

They weren't able to jump over the Eircom worker because of a trait innate to all Eircom workers, they could do it because he was on the ground. The Eircom worker can stand up and defend himself. Short stature is the defining quality of dwarfism. The attackers exploited that trait.

Trump Is Right wrote: »

People are too quick to label everything these days, and invent some huge outrage... when it's quite possible that this was just some bored knuckleheads with nothing better to do than make stupid videos of stupid **** they get up to!

No. People are too eager to entertain and tolerate those who seek to take the grey areas of life and make them bigger as a means to block protections for the vulnerable. People who exploit tolerance itself.

Play the grey areas, "joke" about the vulnerable, falsely play devils advocate. Always write or speak in such a way that you can pivot back to it being honest "ignorance" ("oh I don't know the right PC term to describe Pakis these days") or a joke.

Gimme A Pound · 14-04-2019 5:12pm

She was obviously targeted because of her size.

Such contortions to downplay what she experienced (and to make people feel better about being arseholes).

the_pen_turner · 14-04-2019 5:29pm

surely everyone that was bullied or made fun of for their aperance etc would fit into this bracket

scumbag behaviour yes
hate crime no

LessOutragePlz · 14-04-2019 5:29pm

Philip Grammar wrote: »

"Targeting" someone because of their size does not in itself indicated hatred. The motivation could solely be the opportunity to humiliate someone. Do we even know if the boys intended for Sinead to hear their laughter?

Perhaps a humour crime would be a more apt description.

Humour crime:rolleyes:

Newly registered user and your first 2 posts are on this thread to join another troll have ye nothing better to do on a Sunday evening lads?

LessOutragePlz · 14-04-2019 5:37pm

Philip Grammar wrote: »

Do you understand what hatred is or are you just another lemming that takes on buzz words and applies them without hought?

Yes I do understand what hatred is but I think the best person or people to judge whether these people are guilty of a hate crime is a judge and/or jury in a courtroom.

AtomicHorror · 14-04-2019 5:44pm

Philip Grammar wrote: »

There's no evidence that those boys felt any hatred towards Sinead. Generally speaking I would say laughter is not indicative of hatred.

I actually sense hatred on this thread towards the two boys, perhaps justified, but hatred nonetheless.

Hate crimes are defined based on targeting of an individual based on prejudice, based on their racial or other detectable characteristics, not on whether the perpetrators felt hate, disgust or whatever. If the outcome is an incitement to more prejudice, it's a hate crime.

Philip Grammar wrote: »

"Targeting" someone because of their size does not in itself indicate hatred. The motivation could solely be the opportunity to humiliate someone. Do we even know if the boys intended for Sinead to hear their laughter?

Irrelevant. If they intended to humiliate her or not, it was an obvious outcome. At best they were reckless.

Intentionally humiliating a person, either having targeted them based on their race/other status, or exploiting a feature unique to that status seems to fit the bill of a hate crime pretty well.

Philip Grammar wrote: »

Perhaps a humour crime would be a more apt description.

A nice way to make something horrible sound like something not worth taking seriously.

AtomicHorror · 14-04-2019 5:46pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

surely everyone that was bullied or made fun of for their aperance etc would fit into this bracket

scumbag behaviour yes
hate crime no

If the feature of the person's appearance being mocked was their dark brown skin, would you make the same assessment?

Gimme A Pound · 14-04-2019 5:53pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

If the feature of the person's appearance being mocked was their dark brown skin, would you make the same assessment?

"Sher I get mocked for [insert "having red hair" and/or "being a culchie"].

Sorry about that · 14-04-2019 5:58pm

2 children acted on impulse and humiliated a total stranger, purely because of her height. I don’t think it was a hate crime though.

Nor are the nasty jokes made by a few and thanked by so many adults, the veil of anonymity really shows some true colours. Hopefully Sinead isn’t interested in boards.

AtomicHorror · 14-04-2019 6:00pm

Sorry about that wrote: »

2 children acted on impulse and humiliated a total stranger, purely because of her height. I don’t think it was a hate crime though.

Nor are the nasty jokes made by a few and thanked by so many adults, the veil of anonymity really shows some true colours. Hopefully Sinead isn’t interested in boards.

She's extremely social media savvy and internet aware, though she likely has more sense than to visit the cesspit that AH is these days.

the_pen_turner · 14-04-2019 6:01pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

If the feature of the person's appearance being mocked was their dark brown skin, would you make the same assessment?

i would put this type of thing down as racism or scumbag behavior . if it was on the more serious end of the scale like murder etc then it could be a hate crime

my point is that most bulling is done to people that fit into those bracets and labels

AtomicHorror · 14-04-2019 6:06pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i would put this type of thing down as racism or scumbag behavior . if it was on the more serious end of the scale like murder etc then it could be a hate crime

Right... except you'd be wrong because mocking a black person for being black is a hate crime. It incites hatred.

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

"Sher I get mocked for [insert "having red hair" and/or "being a culchie"].

Yep, some people feel very comfortable reducing the near-constant suffering of others down to the level of their own mundane and very rare struggles.

The same people will also histrionically elevate any and all attempts to protect the vulnerable as some grand oppression of their own race or class.

B0jangles · 14-04-2019 6:12pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Yep, some people feel very comfortable reducing the near-constant suffering of others down to the level of their own mundane and very rare struggles.

The same people will also histrionically elevate any and all attempts to protect the vulnerable as some grand oppression of their own race or class.

It's like they compulsively check to see there is any personal benefit to themselves if an accomodation is made to help someone gain access to something would otherwise be closed off to them, and if there isn't they scream that it's NOT FAIR.

the_pen_turner · 14-04-2019 6:39pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Right... except you'd be wrong because mocking a black person for being black is a hate crime. It incites hatred.

Yep, some people feel very comfortable reducing the near-constant suffering of others down to the level of their own mundane and very rare struggles.

The same people will also histrionically elevate any and all attempts to protect the vulnerable as some grand oppression of their own race or class.

i dont agree in all cases. years ago when i was in school there was a black kid in our class. i wouldnt call him a friend as such but his really close friends would regularly have 'banter' and use his colour or nationality etc as the ammunition against him. he would do similar back . no hatred between any of them. it was all joking among friends.

i wouldnt dream of saying any of what they would say. if you didnt know thm you would call them (and him) racist and scumbags

in lot of cases your right though

Ash.J.Williams · 14-04-2019 6:53pm

Do we really need all these posts to determine a hate crime?

In this case it wasn't.

Good night

Gimme A Pound · 14-04-2019 6:56pm

B0jangles wrote: »

It's like they compulsively check to see there is any personal benefit to themselves if an accomodation is made to help someone gain access to something would otherwise be closed off to them, and if there isn't they scream that it's NOT FAIR.

I remember someone actually saying that they got ridiculed for being a Liverpool fc supporter in a discussion like this.

What makes them so uncomfortable with the notion that people with certain unusual life affecting differences/disabilities deserve some dignity?

Gimme A Pound · 14-04-2019 6:57pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Do we really need all these posts to determine a hate crime?

In this case it wasn't.

Good night

For me the issue is with people being more bothered about the words a rag paper put in a headline than what happened to Sinead - to the extent of minimising it. Is misuse of the term "hate crime" really so worth getting bothered by?

B0jangles · 14-04-2019 7:03pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

I remember someone actually saying that they got ridiculed for being a Liverpool fc supporter in a discussion like this.

What makes them so uncomfortable with the notion that people with certain unusual life affecting differences/disabilities deserve some dignity?

Bacause narcissism and/or total lack of empathy usually.

strandroad · 14-04-2019 7:59pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

For me the issue is with people being more bothered about the words a rag paper put in a headline than what happened to Sinead - to the extent of minimising it. Is misuse of the term "hate crime" really so worth getting bothered by?

This thread reminds me of other discussions here when someone refers to a pedophile and provokes all the "it was actually hebephilia, the child was 11" posters with their multipage debates on the definition of puberty.

Chris_Heilong · 14-04-2019 10:50pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's always interesting how many people on the right or perhaps the alt-right are only consumed by linguistics when it involves a socio-political debate.. "I can't be homophobic because I don't fear the gays"

In this case, an act of hate is referring to the act of having contempt for a person's rights and their dignity. Whether you show such contempt because of a dislike for them, or sheer apathy towards another human being's feelings, to be so contemptuous is a hateful act.

Accusation of people you disagree with as being alt-right is a bit much and seems more a tactic to flaunt ones own self perceived righteousness or a willingness to believe recent propaganda by pseudo-journalists that every thing bad that happens in the world is due to some form of Nazis hiding among the general population.:rolleyes: The world would be a better place if each of us treat everyone and every situation fairly and logically and leave emotions out of an analysis of a situation.

feargale · 15-04-2019 3:57pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

So what?

Some drunk chaps picked you up, and now you're part of that ever growing group in society that thinks they are victims...!? FFS! :rolleyes:

Some people really need to toughen themselves up and stop being so quick to play the victim card... it's embarrassing. We are creating a nation of weaklings and softies! :P

Previous generations would have laughed most of this stuff off and got on with their life... now it's some kind of big scandal. Please... Grow a pair!! :pac:

Have you ever heard of good manners?

15-04-2019 4:55pm

feargale wrote: »

Have you ever heard of good manners?

yes we have and that's about all it is, bad manners by 16 year olds.
She's trying to make a name for herself, I don't care if she's short or not.
She's all over the press crying about it, boo hoo. it's not a hate crime.
It's also not a crime to leap frog anyone against their will or without permission end of story. She wasn't violated as though she's trying to insinuate.

AndrewJRenko · 15-04-2019 5:14pm

rusty cole wrote: »

She's trying to make a name for herself

She's just back from hanging out with Christine Lagarde and Will I Am in Davos and she's writing in British Vogue.

I think she's got the name thing sorted.

gmisk · 15-04-2019 5:24pm

rusty cole wrote: »

yes we have and that's about all it is, bad manners by 16 year olds.
She's trying to make a name for herself, I don't care if she's short or not.
She's all over the press crying about it, boo hoo. it's not a hate crime.
It's also not a crime to leap frog anyone against their will or without permission end of story. She wasn't violated as though she's trying to insinuate.

How would you feel about some leap frogging over your head totally randomly in the street because you were short?
By the sounds of it you would be delighted?
Would you maybe consider walking around with a little sign on your back?
Laying your hands on someone in a totally unwarranted way sounds like a crime to me.

From my point of view it is a hate crime she was clearly targeted due to her height.
The lack of compassion from some of the posters on here is disheartening to say the least.

Hate crime? Really?

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