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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Do Sligo trains pass through Tara as a matter of course? Even if they do, they may not in future. I think it would be nonsensical not to have all Irish Rail services passing through Glasnevin stop there. Too useful a connection to simply ignore even for Inter City services. Metrolink needs to be sweat if it's built. Every drop of usefulness needs to be squeezed out of it to justify both the cost and future expansion. For this reason I hope we see stations like St. Stephen's Green have additional entrances added in time so that passengers can access and egress the station without having to cross the road first. This is the only aspect of Metrolink I don't like, the very limited station access in several of the stations, especially the city centre ones, but I understand that the cost needed to be kept somewhat in check to get the project approved at all.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The problem with the Glasnenin/Cross Guns/Brian Boru interchange is not the exchange to Metro but the other way.

    Someone alighting from an IR IC train will be on a Metro train within a few minutes but changing from Metro to IC trains might involve a significant waiting time. There is unlikely to be facilities for that many passengers to be hanging around just waiting. It would be westbound passengers that would be most affected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,941 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Given that most people will have bought InterCity tickets already online, I’m sure that the vast majority of people are capable of planning their journey using journey planners so that they don’t wait too long at Glasnevin.

    If you were coming from the Airport, surely you’d hold on there rather than wait at a local suburban station.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    InterCity journeys in general are not turn up and go, people are aware of that. Go to any small town intercity station and observe the near total emptiness until 10 mins before the next train is due. The rail strategy recommends diverting Sligo trains from Kilcock to Heuston and providing a service at least every two hours so the issue of Sligo trains in Glasnevin could be short lived (if we are serious about the rail strategy that is).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    if the metro is 10 years away, a new line from Kilcock to Heuston must be at least 30 years away. So it wouldn't be that short term.

    Sligo passengers would also have the option of changing onto the Dart at Maynooth. Though given that the Sligo service is going to be somewhat constricted by a 10 minute frequency Dart, it's probably no great problem to have it stop at Glasnevin. Sure stop it at Clonsilla as well to connect with the Navan train!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,947 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Sligo trains terminate in Connolly using platforms 1-4. Have never seen one use Tara St, nor should anyone ever see one use Tara St!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Thanks, it sounded off to me but I've been away a long time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,934 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    These hearings are absolutely hilarious and infuriating. The bingo card of cranks, chancers and nimbys that have held this country back for generations.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    The idea we would have this oral hearing at all just makes a mockery of the Aarhus convention. Over in Denmark all the contributors to a debate like this probably did extensive research and had something useful to say but you don’t get that in Ireland. It’s just all unqualified, self-described experts, grifters and wealthy old people. Also Trinity and Lidl who should have known better and made fools of themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    In the end, Trinity did not present any objection, so they deserve some (small) credit, but Lidl definitely made fools of themselves.

    The process is necessary, if only to let some objectors show the world just how stupid and petty their claims really are. On the other hand, there are also some who are genuinely going to lose out as a result of this construction: particulatly the Tara St residents who will have to move home in the middle of an unprecedented housing shortage. It's important that their concerns, and the official response to them, are made public.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Personally, I changed my mind about Hedigans when I figured out the other day that it’s a pub I know quite well and I’ve drank in before, and it was mentioned in Ulysses. These things take on a new significance then. It’s a sacrifice to be made no doubt about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The idea that Ulysses era Dublin needs to be preserved indefinitely is part of why this city is so dysfunctional

    The need for important infrastructure and the common good that it serves vastly outranks the need to preserve landmarks of minor cultural significance



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Half of Dublin City is mentioned in Ulysses!

    Outside of the local area most people would never of heard of this pub, The Bernard Shaw across the road would be better known.

    Always a pity to see a place you know and use disappear, but in this case it is unavailable, it will end up as one of the busiest train stations in the country and unlike other stops, there is no possible alternative. You can’t build an interchange between a Metro and two rail lines without impacting this pub.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Cries from the Owner of Hedigans itself ring particularly hollow, given they have twice tried to have it knocked themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,947 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    How many people have actually read Ulysses?

    Who really cares what is mentioned in it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    It is possible to completely move historical buildings if they are really worth saving. I din't know if this pub fits the bill, but it's not an insurmountable problem even if it is worth preserving.



  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    It's definitely possible! Quite amusing to scroll through examples on the web. Obviously won't happen though!!

    It would be cool if they could preserve the facade and incorporate it into the station itself as an actual entrance, or a new cafe inside (or outside). Would be reminiscent of an Irish bar inside an airport. The Americans would love it!




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Personally I wouldn’t. The new station looks fantastic, modern and sleek looking. This pub doesn’t really look anything special, no different than thousands of other pubs around the country. The building only dates from 1850 and there isn’t anything particularly special about it, it looks like any other building from that time period, it just has some interesting painting on it, the architecture isn’t actually anything unique or different (for Dublin). Is it even a listed building?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It couldn't be listed if the owners applied to demolish it. Being listed would have meant the station design would have had to accomodate or preserve it.

    I have read Ulysses, and it covers a lot of Dublin- you can't preserve all of those places. And Joyce wrote it while living in Zurich, over ten years after leaving Ireland, so it's not like it was a precise document of the city.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭citizen6


    I wouldn't presume to speak for James Joyce, but no-one who cares about the city and its people would want things to stay the way they are.

    We need more and better housing, more and better public transport, and a vibrant city centre. Metrolink will help with each of those.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Rome is currently building a Metro line right alongside the Forum.. every few months, the job stops to let the archaeologists in, because they keep finding priceless ancient sites. And yet, despite all this, the work continues. (project site here : https://metrocspa.it/en/ )

    I think we can deal with an old pub.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭SeanW


    If the idea is to preserve Joyces/Ulysses Dublin, then might it make sense to simply build a new Hedigans bar as close as possible to the original? Maybe just up the street a little bit?

    Edit: Never read Ulysses myself, but when I lived in Dublin I used to regularly walk past Sweny's Pharmacy. These things are definitely nice to have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    This video, in Italian, goes through the incredibly complex and expensive process of building the central Metro C stations:



    There's a 3D visualisation near the beginning that stands the whole station structure at street level, and you can see how deep the excavation is (85 m deep: Metrolink is less than 30) and why it is so slow and expensive. Normally this kind of deep station would be mined out, and access corridors and shafts would be tunneled up to the surface, but in Rome that would mean digging blind through who knows what archaelogy, so they're effectively forced to use cut-and-cover at really deep depths.

    The Eastern section of MetroC, already in service, is actually much more like Metrolink: a standardised station design, either built at surface, or as cut and cover just below. Things only get horrifically complex in the old centre because they have to tunnel below the earliest stratum of the Roman city. Those central stations take on average 10 years to complete, compared to just 3 for the outer ones.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,588 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Reopen Barney Kiernans pub in the Markets area if we must keep a fixed quota of Ulysses pubs. Building is still there, pub closed decades.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,045 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The interior of the front part of Hedigan's is certainly nice but Dublin has dozens of similar pubs.

    If the lads wanted, they could buy another premises anywhere in the city with the wedge they'll get from the CPO and have the old bar, panelling, etc. installed there. Most people drinking there won't know that it isn't original to the building and nobody would care anyway. Given they wanted to knock the place themselves, I assume they'll just consider the licence and the interior to be another few quid to top up what they get from the CPO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭spillit67


    It’s very important to the character of Dublin. It attracts huge tourist interest.

    That said, any of the individual locations he mentions are worth swapping for this project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭Kincora2017


    To be honest that’s a terrible attitude to hold in relation to our heritage. While I’m not saying Hedigans should be saved at any cost, once a place is destroyed no amount of careful reconstruction ever replaces the value of what was lost.

    Theres also a focus on this thread on the fact that the owners wanted to knock it previously, rather than a focus on the fact that both times they were refused permission. This means that, at least at county council level, the heritage value of the place has been acknowledged



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    DCC actually approved the application, the only reason it failed is because the owners of the apartments next door appealed to ABP, which struck it down over the "excessive height" (6 storeys, Jesus wept. That's a different problem though)

    The heritage value didn't really come into it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,947 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,045 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Whatever heritage value there is in Hedigan's applies to the interior of the original pub only. Externally the building itself is nothing special and has had all sorts done to it over the years. The rest of the site is a bloody car park.

    As I said, the interior could be salvaged and reused elsewhere. That would preserve the heritage value of what's there, the rest would be no lose at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Much like the Easter Rising and its tourist value, I don’t believe anyone has done a deep dive of the value of it.

    However we do have two museums specifically focused on Joyce along with another (National Literary Museum) underpinned by him.

    Bloomsday is an important day in the city.

    There’s Apps and various tours that go through the city on it day to day

    It is one of the first things you’ll see in the foreign media about Dublin or googling it.

    I’m sure if you talk to proprietors of Ulysses related properties that they’ll tell you how it adds value. I understand that Davy Byrnes was bought purely because of someone’s love of it.

    You can have your views on it as a book, but the facts are that it is regularly cited as one of the greatest works of the 20th century. For it to be about Dublin quite clearly adds significant value to Dublin beyond what would be considered normal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,588 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Its outside the city centre and hence going to have a fraction of the Joyce tour related footfall that Davy Byrnes or Swenys gets.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    None of the tours go anywhere near it though, at least none that I can see.

    It's one line in the book, they don't even go into the pub. Should we really be cancelling a vital interchange station to keep one pub that barely features in the book?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yeah, I live near some other buildings/business that were also mentioned in Ulysses and I have never seen a Joyce related tourist go near them. It is mostly just the famous ones inside the core city center, not the ones in the suburbs.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Is the Ulysses factor greater than William Hamilton's scratches in 1843 on the (Brougham) Broom Bridge on the Grand Canal to remember quaternions?

    Surely it is not far from the pub no-one goes to or remembers and is much more important than a mere mention in some book?



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭spillit67


    I think you missed the part where I said in individual I would sacrifice any of the locations mentioned in the book for a project of this scale.

    I was merely responding to the point on its importance to Dublin. It clearly is. That doesn’t mean we have to go all ott about it.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Oral Hearings back again today, here's the latest schedule that ABP have put out.

    AZ4(e) Mater Station and Tunnel as far as O’Connell Street Station (Continued)

    • District 7 Community Alliance (20 minutes)

    • Millenium Theatre Company (30 minutes)

    • The Rotunda Hospital (1 hour)

    • Donal O’Brolcain (1 hour)

    AZ4(f) O’Connell Street Station and Tunnel as far as Tara Station

    • Dublin Central GP Limited (2 hours)

    • The Abbey Theatre (Amharclann na Mainistreach) (45 minutes)

    • Troys Butchers (20 minutes)

    AZ4(g) Tara Station and Tunnel as far as St Stephen’s Green Station

    • Greybirch Limited (15 minutes)

    Other

    • Office of Public Works (1 hour)

    • The Heritage Council (20 minutes)

    • Mouna Unlimited Company (1 hour)

    Somewhat interesting that 3 hours have been removed, and have not been placed somewhere else in the schedule, perhaps they've reached an agreement. EDIT: Just noticed that Dublin Central GP have actually been rescheduled, but only with 20 mins on the last day.

    I'd guess that the Abbey will be saying that the noise/vibrations will interfere with their shows, but it's only two weeks, they can raise the volume on their speakers.

    It also shows that from the Mater to the SSG, there's not much controversy about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,588 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Surprised Hammerson (Dublin Central GP Limited) only need 20mins considering they are basically waiting for the station box to be built to proceed.

    Greybirch is the Tara Street hotel site, Mouna is Larry Goodman. That personal appearance is someone who is a 'send buses down the port tunnel' guy I believe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It all sounds positive. Hopefully a railway order will be issued by the end of the year and we'll see real work in early 2025 before an election.



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    🤣

    I didn't google the names this time, so I was wondering why a doctors practice needed two hours....



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,531 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Is there any sort of indication how soon we will see works commence once a railway order is actually granted? I haven't been keeping up to date with the tender process in recent weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭JohnnyChimpo


    I must say Fintan O Toole's piece in the Irish Times today about the farcical LIDL objections is a very entertaining read. "Subscriber Only" but yknow easy enough to find regardless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It's impossible to tell but I think the metrolink team are advancing their tender documents while waiting for their RO so hopefully it'll be a matter of months



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Nice to see someone calling it out in the media.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Looking at the docs added to the RO site, nothing much happened today.

    There's a photo montage of the Fingallians pitches, a quick word on the length of the railings and green space at the Mater, a doc that shows how they'll build the O'Connell St stop (with Dublin Central or without), and an update on the compound sizes required for construction (a few have gotten larger).



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I read the article (I have a sub). Agreed with all of it but am in 2 minds about the last paragraph:

    "And meanwhile the massive new Planning and Development Bill is about to be guillotined through the Dáil. Its very title is telling: the D-word is up there Iin lights.

    One of its main aims is to restrict severely the rights of citizens to seek judicial reviews of planning decisions. It makes no mention of sustainability or the climate crisis and places no real emphasis on defining the public good."

    I agree that private housing and commercial developers are often objectionable but I seriously think that for projects such as public transport facilities you should not be allowed to launch JRs of them because of the overriding public interest. Object during the planning phase if you will, speak at the Oral Hearing if you must but that should be the end of it.

    It's time we put a stop to nonsense about Kerry slugs and bats.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Ah, the Heritage Council got to speak, should have known someone would be getting air time.

    Nothing new in there, it's the same as the OPW essentially.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Today's agenda

    AZ4(g) Tara Station and Tunnel as far as St Stephen’s Green Station (Continued)

    • Voice of Vision Impairment (1 hour)

    • Aine Wellard (30 minutes)

    • Tom Corr Clients: Hertz Europe Service Centre Limited and College Gate Apartments (2 hours): (Bart and Patricia Broderick; Cathal Duffy; Dermot and Doris Healy; Eanna Coffey; John & Majella Darcy; Karl Egan; Maria Elena Garcia Valasco; Martin Sheridan; Nicola Brait and Greta Tumiatti; Townsend Apartment Management Company Limited; Veronica Jane O'Mara)

    • Nicola Brait and Greta Tumiatti (10 minutes)

    • Townsend Apartment Management Company Limited (10 minutes)

    • Save Markievicz Pool & Gym Campaign (John Dean) (2 hours)

    • Trinity College Dublin (1 hour)

    Hertz are out in Swords, so I assume that it's out there that they're worried about, the Seatown station is right next to their building (which they seem to share with Easons, for some reason)

    Be interesting to see what the College Gate Apartment folks have to say, I think that we'll hear about flawed consultation, impact on lives, etc. I do have sympathy with anyone losing their home on this, but I doubt that they have anything more than emotions to bring to this.

    The Save Markievicz Pool guys really had the legs cut out from underneath them when DCC agreed with TII to upgrade their Irishtown facilities, hard to campaign to save something when the owners are totally ok with getting rid of it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭Tileman


    Wonder what the impact of Leo leaving will be. A Dublin Taoiseach was good for this project.

    also Michael mcdowell was meant to launching an independent alliance with Veronica murphy this evening . Hope this project gets through before the next GE. Would not like mcdowell having the balance of power.



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