Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Boggles · 03-07-2019 4:57pm

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Now that the people actually know what brexit looks like the government should hold a binding vote, the deal, no deal or no brexit.

The Deal is 600 pages long, do people know what it looks like? I'm not so sure.

I don't think they have a clue what a no deal brexit looks like either.

Tell me how · 03-07-2019 5:03pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

It hasn't been ignored, its gotten nothing but attention for 3 years. The negotiated deal was brought to parliament for ratification 3 times.

joe40 · 03-07-2019 5:58pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

Whether or not to hold a second referendum is totally up to Britain. It will be their choice alone.

Auguste Comte · 03-07-2019 6:09pm

Boggles wrote: »

The Deal is 600 pages long, do people know what it looks like? I'm not so sure.

I don't think they have a clue what a no deal brexit looks like either.

I take your point alright but at least some of the unicorns could be introduced to the humain killer and taken out of the equation.

The information is all there and a more honest debate should be possible.

steddyeddy · 03-07-2019 6:16pm

Berserker wrote: »

You do realise that there are a number of countries around the world who are not in the EU and they are doing very well for themselves? The UK can sign new trade deals, the US, Canada & Aus are standing in the wings already and every country in the world will want to do business with them given the size of their economy. Take a look at the non-EU countries in central Europe and Scandanavia, as examples. What do you make of them?

Yes of course there are. Can you name some that aren't in some sort of single market though or name some that operate on WTO rules?

Also it's often repeated that not everyone is in the EU. This is very true, but there's a lot of countries not in the EU but have a trade deal with the EU. A lot of senior Brexiters and ordinary voters seem to think that no deal would be fine for the UK.

Another important fact that's not often discussed is the geographical realities of trade. The UK, like all other countries trades more with countries that are closer to it. It costs more money to import and export things from far away so making trade deals with Japan, China and Australia may incur significant cost that negate the benefit of any free trade deal.

Boggles · 03-07-2019 6:39pm

Auguste Comte wrote: »

The information is all there and a more honest debate should be possible.

It should be, but in reality it probably won't.

The "bad points" of the deal will be magnified and embellished.

He who shouts loudest etc.

May's mantra for the last election and up until quite recently was "No Deal is better than a bad deal", now they got a slight bit of a kicking but were still returned as the largest party.

I don't see a clear route to a 2nd referendum and I personally don't think a result either way for Britain will be great for them or the EU and more importantly us going forward, unless it is by a hefty margin.

Things are getting worse, they are going to put an absolute fúcking clown in charge in the next couple of weeks, all bets are off.

The World economy is masking the residual effects of a looming Brexit, all though the UK economy is forecast to slow down and maybe even bottom out, something like that could focus the minds.

Either way it is a clusterfúck of epic proportions and there seems to be an air of, especially from our crowd "Ah sure it will sort itself out".

People are in for some shock if they crash out Halloween night.

First Up · 03-07-2019 6:56pm

steddyeddy wrote:

Another important fact that's not often discussed is the geographical realities of trade. The UK, like all other countries trades more with countries that are closer to it. It costs more money to import and export things from far away so making trade deals with Japan, China and Australia may incur significant cost that negate the benefit of any free trade deal.

Countries don't "trade" with each other; people and companies do. Business is predominantly a private sector activity in which both sellers and buyers have a choice.

A trade "deal" with a country does not guarantee business will happen; it simply sets the framework within which companies and individuals negotiate and compete.

All the UK government can do is try to negotiate the terms for market access. After that its up to individual companies to seek out market opportunities and beat off the competition. Thats usually easier in markets close by than on the other side of the planet.

Its easier still when you have unfettered access to a market - for example like a 27 country single market.

Spanish Eyes · 03-07-2019 6:56pm

Boggles wrote: »

It should be, but in reality it probably won't.

The "bad points" of the deal will be magnified and embellished.

He who shouts loudest etc.

May's mantra for the last election and up until quite recently was "No Deal is better than a bad deal", now they got a slight bit of a kicking but were still returned as the largest party.

I don't see a clear route to a 2nd referendum and I personally don't think a result either way for Britain will be great for them or the EU and more importantly us going forward, unless it is by a hefty margin.

Things are getting worse, they are going to put an absolute fúcking clown in charge in the next couple of weeks, all bets are off.

The World economy is masking the residual effects of a looming Brexit, all though the UK economy is forecast to slow down and maybe even bottom out, something like that could focus the minds.

Either way it is a clusterfúck of epic proportions and there seems to be an air of, especially from our crowd "Ah sure it will sort itself out".

People are in for some shock if they crash out Halloween night.

The hubris of the Brexit crowd including the incumbent idiot for PM is just staggering.

But the last three years were worth it to show how wonderful Britain will be post Brexit, yeah right.

Why have they not gone already? That is the question that no one on the Brexit side can answer. I do realise that Parliament blocked No Deal and the WA so far, but honestly going out by default on 31/10 is actually spiting Parliament in my view.

The pro Brexit media, a lame Labour Party (what exactly is their policy on Brexit, no one really knows) and an electoral system that actually discourages any real involvement in politics are some of the issues. But that is from my/our perspective of course.

Doesn't stop me from saying they are Class A idiots though.

Led by Donkeys is right (twitter).

03-07-2019 8:03pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Another important fact that's not often discussed is the geographical realities of trade. The UK, like all other countries trades more with countries that are closer to it. It costs more money to import and export things from far away so making trade deals with Japan, China and Australia may incur significant cost that negate the benefit of any free trade deal.

This. Blair made much of this exact point in an interview recently. He was acerbic in his dismissal of the Brexiteers claiming British firms would get replacement trade for lost EU trade on... the far side of the planet. Snakeoil salesmen duping a whole nation.

03-07-2019 8:04pm

source wrote: »

You mean the 2 occasions where Ireland voted down the treaties in a referendum, there were changes made to suit us and we voted again on the altered treaties

Indeed.

When the highly educated Irish electorate voted against a treaty because it meant forced abortions and conscription in to an Eu army.

fly_agaric · 03-07-2019 8:39pm

Aegir wrote: »

Indeed.

When the highly educated Irish electorate voted against a treaty because it meant forced abortions and conscription in to an Eu army.

I sense some sarcasm about the sophisticated Irish electorate there...sort of agree with you. If the electorate is stupid enough to go full eurosceptic + chase after the Brits to to free ourselves of future EU armies or what not, "we" deserve everything that will be coming to us.

At least Britain really was a global super-power/empire almost within living memory so I can sort of understand where a public delusion that can just put the finger up to all their neighbours and allies and plow their own furrow in the wider world comes from. We've been put firmly in our place in the past and used as a toy by the leaders of the great power next door so don't have that excuse!

For Forks Sake · 03-07-2019 9:08pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No thanks, give us back the old roads and f*ck right off EU

Misquoting the name of a 'book' by John bloody Waters? Think that summarizes the level of intellect on show here.

ltd440 · 03-07-2019 9:26pm

Unbelievable as it seems, I think the clown that Boris is he does believe in English exceptionalisn and will take the UK out. I mean if you listen to his father he sounds like the colonel from fawlty towers

ArchXStanton · 03-07-2019 11:51pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I am very well versed on the Lisbon situation. It was the wrong answer the first time so it was run again. It was essentially the same treaty the second time, and yes I know there were minuscule differences.

The bulk of the treaty was retained with a few "concessions" added on for an excuse for a revote, The French and Dutch had their referendums ignored on the EU constitution and they stuck it in the Lisbon treaty that was then ratified, the EU is a fcuking disgrace when it comes to democracy.

https://brexitcentral.com/irish-observer-warned-2013-pro-eu-elite-seek-block-brexit/

Carry · 04-07-2019 1:00am

Kidchameleon,

in my first contribution to this thread I asked you simple questions about your opinion like "How so" and "why". Your answer was as fluffy as those you gave to more specific questions and answers of other more accommodating boardsies.

So now tell us without regurgitating soundbites that whirl around your head because the internet, and to make it very simple for you:

- How is the EU a bad thing?

- Why is Brexit a good thing?

- What are the consequences of disolving the EU at large? Especially for Britain?

- Since you seem to be so concerned about immigration, what do you think about the status of Brits living abroad (that is outside of the UK)?

-Or rather "leftie": What's wrong with unifying people and peoples to work together to aim for the best of worlds, if not the perfect world? There is no such thing like perfect. But there is good trying and working on it and making compromises. Like in every relationship.

- What makes you think that Britain is better off going it on their own? And why do you trust the likes of Trump or other countries that trade deals are a done thing?

- And lastly: Why do you think that a male politician would be so much harder as a negotiator ("harder" -no pun intended, almost)? Though you backtracked a bit about female leaders.
Don't you think that good old Maggie Thatcher would call you a wimp? Backtracking?

Actually I'm not really going into that last point. I am a woman and I'm not in the least accommodating and very much not eager to please. And in real life I have a reputation to sqeeze the balls to transgender status of every man who thinks he might get the better of me.

But this is not real life, so don't be afraid. Just tell me and the rest of us your reasonable arguments to corroborate your opinion.

And please not by digging a deeper hole you're already in.

04-07-2019 1:23am

Carry wrote: »

Actually I'm not really going into that last point. I am a woman and I'm not in the least accommodating and very much not eager to please. And in real life I have a reputation to sqeeze the balls to transgender status of every man who thinks he might get the better of me.

You lost the run of yourself spectacularly here. Narcissistic drivel.

Carry · 04-07-2019 1:29am

Deleted User wrote: »

You lost the run of yourself spectacularly here. Narcissistic drivel.

Yes, me bad girl. Trump, Boris et al good boys.

Go on.

04-07-2019 1:45am

Carry wrote: »

Yes, me bad girl. Trump, Boris et al good boys.

Go on.

There's no point at all. You're grasping at thin air.

Kidchameleon · 04-07-2019 7:19am

Hi I am off to the airport and will be gone until Tuesday so I thought I would address your points quickly.

Carry wrote: »

How is the EU a bad thing?

No respect for democracy

Carry wrote: »

Why is Brexit a good thing?

It destabilizes the anti democratic EU and gives Britain its independence back

Carry wrote: »

What are the consequences of disolving the EU at large? Especially for Britain?

No idea, it wont be a pretty ride for sure but it will be better in the long run for everyone

Carry wrote: »

Since you seem to be so concerned about immigration, what do you think about the status of Brits living abroad (that is outside of the UK)?

I have not once mentioned immigration.

Carry wrote: »

What's wrong with unifying people and peoples to work together to aim for the best of worlds, if not the perfect world? There is no such thing like perfect. But there is good trying and working on it and making compromises. Like in every relationship.

Countries should retain their identity. Britain should remain British, Ireland should remain Irish etc. The EU is slowly but deliberately eroding our national identities.

Carry wrote: »

What makes you think that Britain is better off going it on their own? And why do you trust the likes of Trump or other countries that trade deals are a done thing?

They were fine before they signed up and will be fine after. There are plenty of countries not in the EU that are doing well.

Carry wrote: »

Why do you think that a male politician would be so much harder as a negotiator ("harder" -no pun intended, almost)? Though you backtracked a bit about female leaders.

As per mod instructions, I cannot go into it. I gave scientific evidence to my claim earlier in the thread. Its not really a claim actually, it is a fact.

Carry wrote: »

Don't you think that good old Maggie Thatcher would call you a wimp? Backtracking?

No, she is dead.

Carry wrote: »

Actually I'm not really going into that last point. I am a woman and I'm not in the least accommodating and very much not eager to please. And in real life I have a reputation to sqeeze the balls to transgender status of every man who thinks he might get the better of me.

But this is not real life, so don't be afraid. Just tell me and the rest of us your reasonable arguments to corroborate your opinion.

You are an exception to the rule so. Like a tall woman would be an exception to the rule that men are generally taller than women. Or a man with large breasts would be an exception to the rule that women generally have larger breasts than men.

Carry wrote: »

And please not by digging a deeper hole you're already in.

OK

First Up · 04-07-2019 7:46am

Kidchameleon wrote:

Hi I am off to the airport and will be gone until Tuesday so I thought I would address your points quickly.

If you have time on your trip, could you jot down which bits of Europe's history of fuedalism and nationalism we should aim to replicate by ditching the EU?

Reati · 04-07-2019 7:59am

Kidchameleon wrote: »

.
Countries should retain their identity. Britain should remain British, Ireland should remain Irish etc. The EU is slowly but deliberately eroding our national identities.

I believe a cursory look at the past shows the British have been eroding national identities, languages and culture of other countries for a great deal of their history. I've yet to see the EU do anything of the sort.

dudara · 04-07-2019 8:09am

On a less serious note, I am frankly embarrassed for Britain. This is the country which fielded a great navy, built an empire and held back Germany in the early days of WWII. They’ve currently spent the last 3 years squabbling amongst themselves and with everyone else. Where is the famous British resolve?

I personally think Brexit is a bad move, but I do wish they’d get on with it so that we can work through it and come out the other side.

In my mind, it’s also no coincidence that this anti-EU sentiment is emerging strongly at the time when the last of the WWII survivors are dying off. The EU (and it’s predecessors) was in part an effort to prevent WWII from ever happening again. Most of Europe has had over 70 years of peace. But wheels turn and memories move on.

Boggles · 04-07-2019 8:48am

dudara wrote: »

Where is the famous British resolve?

Purposely leaving one of the biggest economies in the world weakens resolve.

It's another pup they were sold that they would get good old Blighty back again.

We saw a very real tangible consequence of it yesterday where China basically took a diplomatic dump on them.

That is embarrassing and pretty dangerous.

Auguste Comte · 04-07-2019 10:18am

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Hi I am off to the airport and will be gone until Tuesday so I thought I would address your points quickly.

No respect for democracy

It destabilizes the anti democratic EU and gives Britain its independence back

No idea, it wont be a pretty ride for sure but it will be better in the long run for everyone

I have not once mentioned immigration.

Countries should retain their identity. Britain should remain British, Ireland should remain Irish etc. The EU is slowly but deliberately eroding our national identities.

They were fine before they signed up and will be fine after. There are plenty of countries not in the EU that are doing well.

As per mod instructions, I cannot go into it. I gave scientific evidence to my claim earlier in the thread. Its not really a claim actually, it is a fact.

No, she is dead.

You are an exception to the rule so. Like a tall woman would be an exception to the rule that men are generally taller than women. Or a man with large breasts would be an exception to the rule that women generally have larger breasts than men.

OK

Some people just wanna watch the world burn

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 10:37am

Reati wrote: »

I believe a cursory look at the past shows the British have been eroding national identities, languages and culture of other countries for a great deal of their history. I've yet to see the EU do anything of the sort.

Aye, just be glad this nutcase wasn't "appointed" commission president, not that it matters as the top tier of the EU seems to be inhabited with nutcases, we've now got Ursula Von something or other, another federalist fanatic most people have never even heard of.... And the IMFs Lagarde tipped for president of the ECB... Jesus H Christ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q94syUDDhxA

blinding · 04-07-2019 11:00am

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Aye, just be glad this nutcase wasn't "appointed" commission president, not that it matters as the top tier of the EU seems to be inhabited with nutcases, we've now got Ursula Von something or other, another federalist fanatic most people have never even heard of.... And the IMFs Lagarde tipped for president of the ECB... Jesus H Christ..

<SNIP>

His Peace and Freedom and if you don’t do it his way , he will Drive his Peace and Freedom through you for your Benefit .

These People are Insane . They will decide whats best for You and definitely Not allow You Decide .

First Up · 04-07-2019 11:09am

ArchXStanton wrote:

Aye, just be glad this nutcase wasn't "appointed" commission president, not that it matters as the top tier of the EU seems to be inhabited with nutcases, we've now got Ursula Von something or other, another federalist fanatic most people have never even heard of.... And the IMFs Lagarde tipped for president of the ECB... Jesus H Christ..

You sound terrified.

Which bits of these dangerous fanatics worry you the most?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 11:32am

First Up wrote: »

You sound terrified.

Which bits of these dangerous fanatics worry you the most?

Terrified? More bemused that people are standing by watching these failed politicians in their own countries destroy Europe as we know it... Not to mention their immigration policy, shady trade deals, austerity, complete lack of respect for democracy, article 13,nepotism, a charade of a parliament, a union were France and Germany seem to set the agenda... But you go right on ahead and wave your little blue flag...

First Up · 04-07-2019 11:34am

ArchXStanton wrote:

Terrified? More bemused that people are standing by watching these failed politicians in their own countries destroy Europe as we know it... Not to mention their immigration policy, shady trade deals, austerity, complete lack of respect for democracy, article 13,nepotism, a union were France and Germany seem to set the agenda... But you go right on ahead and wave your little blue flag...

Well that's the problem with representative democracy. We vote for people to make decisions and if we don't like the decisions all we can do is vote for someone else.

A bitch huh?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 11:40am

First Up wrote: »

Well that's the problem with representative democracy. We vote for people to make decisions and if we don't like the decisions all we can do is vote for someone else.

A bitch huh?

I wouldn't even give that charade the legitimacy it so desperately wants by voting in their elections(pretty dismal voter turnout huh? ) the real democratic deficit in the EU is it doesn't have the people's consent to be a governing body and it wasn't for our politicians to give away

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 11:51am

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I wouldn't even give that charade the legitimacy it so desperately wants by voting in their elections(pretty dismal voter turnout huh? ) the real democratic deficit in the EU is it doesn't have the people's consent to be a governing body and it wasn't for our politicians to give away

Well, Irish people want to be part of this awful institution by a factor of 9/1. Also, turnout across the EU actually rose in the last election by 8% to 51%. Not bad eh?

First Up · 04-07-2019 11:52am

ArchXStanton wrote:

I wouldn't even give that charade the legitimacy it so desperately wants by voting in their elections(pretty dismal voter turnout huh? ) the real democratic deficit in the EU is it doesn't have the people's consent to be a governing body and it wasn't for our politicians to give away

The EU isn't a governing body. Its a rules based association of democratically elected sovereign governments. If you want to debate its legitimacy you should start by learning what you are talking about.

But if you are more comfortable trotting out cliches from your sofa, then go right ahead. The grown ups will take it from here.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 11:52am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, Irish people want to be part of this awful institution by a factor of 9/1. Also, turnout across the EU actually rose in the last election by 8% to 51%. Not bad eh?

Wooow 51% hahaha

How many do you think came out to vote eurosceptics?

Dytalus · 04-07-2019 11:53am

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I wouldn't even give that charade the legitimacy it so desperately wants by voting in their elections(pretty dismal voter turnout huh? ) the real democratic deficit in the EU is it doesn't have the people's consent to be a governing body and it wasn't for our politicians to give away

Except...we had a referendum on EU membership. In fact we've had several:

1973 on the enlargement of the European Communities
1987 on the Single European Act (establishing the single market)
1992 to accept the Maastricht Treaty (which founded the EU)
1998 we accepted the Treaty of Amsterdam (which transferred additional competencies from national to EU government)

So never mind that the whole reason we elect politicians is to make these types of political decisions for us, they never made the decision to join the EU.

We did.

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 11:54am

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Wooow 51% hahaha

How many do you think came out to vote eurosceptics?

51% is good considering the context. Can't think why you would assume otherwise. Why don't you google your question and find out?

First Up · 04-07-2019 11:56am

ArchXStanton wrote:

How many do you think came out to vote eurosceptics?

You wouldn't even get off your arse to do that, so your whinges about it being anti-democratic ring a bit hollow don't you think?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 11:57am

First Up wrote: »

The EU isn't a governing body. Its a rules based association of democratically elected sovereign governments. If you want to debate its legitimacy you should start by learning what you are talking about.

But if you are more comfortable trotting out cliches from your sofa, then go right ahead. The grown ups will take it from here.

Aye I see you're still pontificating on here after allthese years...I'd put money on it you'll throw your toys out of the pram in the next few posts

I'm well versed in how the EU operates, I was a no campaigner here during the Lisbon revote

First Up · 04-07-2019 11:58am

ArchXStanton wrote:

I'm well versed in how the EU operates,

All evidence to the contrary.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 11:58am

Dytalus wrote: »

Except...we had a referendum on EU membership. In fact we've had several:
1973 on the enlargement of the European Communities

1987 on the Single European Act (establishing the single market)

1992 to accept the Maastricht Treaty (which founded the EU)

1998 we accepted the Treaty of Amsterdam (which transferred additional competencies from national to EU government)

So never mind that the whole reason we elect politicians is to make these types of political decisions for us, they never made the decision to join the EU.

We did.

Eh we joined the EEC...

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 11:58am

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Aye I see you're still pontificating on here after allthese years...I'd put money on it you'll throw your toys out of the pram in the next few posts

I'm well versed in how the EU operates, I was a no campaigner here during the Lisbon revote

So you've given up on your principles? That's a pity for you.

Dytalus · 04-07-2019 11:59am

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I'm well versed in how the EU operates, I was a no campaigner here during the Lisbon revote

That doesn't actually prove anything though. Plenty of people campaigned for (and continue to campaign in favour of) Brexit and get even basic information about the EU wrong.

Either they're willfully lying, or they simply don't care to find out.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 11:59am

First Up wrote: »

You wouldn't even get off your arse to do that, so your whinges about it being anti-democratic ring a bit hollow don't you think?

If the EU respected democracy it wouldn't exist in its current form

First Up · 04-07-2019 12:01pm

ArchXStanton wrote:

If the EU respected democracy it wouldn't exist in its current form

I'm sure you are right.

Goodbye.

Boggles · 04-07-2019 12:02pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

If the EU respected democracy it wouldn't exist in its current form

The UK decided to leave democratically.

An agreement has been signed.

The door is open, they won't leave, nothing to do with the EU.

How exactly are the EU not respecting democracy?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 12:03pm

First Up wrote: »

I'm sure you are right.

Goodbye.

And there we have it... Watch out for the flying rattler... Wahhh

Dytalus · 04-07-2019 12:04pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Eh we joined the EEC...

Did you...did you read anything leading up to my final line?

Like how we specifically voted to found turn the EEC into the EU? As a people?

Fine, I'll accept your semantics. We joined the EEC and then helped found the EU.

BoJack Horseman · 04-07-2019 12:06pm

"No" is the short answer to the OP.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 12:07pm

Dytalus wrote: »

Did you...did you read anything leading up to my final line?

Like how we specifically voted to found turn the EEC into the EU? As a people?

Fine, I'll accept your semantics. We joined the EEC and then helped found the EU.

And what happened when people voted No to Lisbon and Nice treaties?

WHAT happened to the French and Dutch referendums on an EU constitution?

Any recent referendums on anything EU related have consistently gone against them only to be made vote again or just been outright ignored

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 12:08pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

And what happened when people voted No to Lisbon and Nice treaties?

WHAT happened to the French and Dutch referendums on an EU constitution?

Any recent referendums on anything EU related have consistently gone against them only to be made vote again or just been outright ignored

Nothing stopping the country in question, including Ireland, deciding that they don't agree and simply leaving the EU.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 12:10pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Nothing stopping the country in question, including Ireland, deciding that they don't agree and simply leaving the EU.

You didn't answer the question, what happened to the French and Dutch results?

"in the EU, a Yes vote is forever. A No vote is only ever temporary."

Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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