What do you believe happens when we die

nthclare · 12-09-2020 11:25pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't think i know anyone who has tried a ouija board, but what has being scared of going for a walk in the woods in the dark got to do with atheism?
and regarding supposedly haunted houses, linked to the above, maybe there are things your brain associates with being scared, which would make anyone scared, but which some people associate with the idea of a haunting?

It shows that Atheists are as fearful of the unknown just as much as thiests are.

Maybe there are things your brain associated with being scared is an understatement.

There are things your brain associates with being scared,and I don't need to research it or plagerise some scientist from an internet site to prove it.

Oh I'd say in the back of 20% of self proclaimed atheists mind's they still wonder if there's demon's, souls or dietys etc

Whatever about Angels , I prefer demon's they suit me better to be honest.

magicbastarder · 12-09-2020 11:29pm

nthclare wrote: »

It shows that Atheists are as fearful of the unknown just as much as thiests are.

surely this is trivial?
atheism means 'does not believe in a god', not 'does not suffer fear of things which would appear to be an irrational reaction if viewed in a clinical manner'.

nthclare · 12-09-2020 11:36pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I have worked in a lot of atheist organisations from Atheist Ireland to Atheist Germany to Humanists UK to Atheist Alliance International. And many others. I have met many atheists. I suspect more than you ever will, many times over. And I have to say I have not met a single one who expressed any concern with approaching or using a board game. So I have honestly no idea which atheists YOU imagine you are meeting. To be honest, I simply do not buy your anecdote at all.

As for walking in woods and staying in weird houses.... that's hardly relevant. It has nothing to do with anything being discussed here. Rather we have evolved over many 1000s of years to feel uneasy and defensive and skittish under certain contexts and conditions. Nothing to do with spirits. Nothing to do with after lives. Nothing to do with ghosts. Just simple biological prudence.

All that said, I have myself been in weird empty houses and forests on a number of occasions. For a number of reasons. Some of them drug related. Some of them sex/girl related. And some of them simply to be alone and find good conditions to observe the stars. Generally I had no fears at all. Least of all for anything super or para normal.

Having worked with Atheists myself in horticulture they are still interested in religion, mythology and other woo...

It doesn't matter how many Atheists you or I met, that's irrelevant to be honest.

My atheist is bigger than your atheist

But I do believe there's demon's and souls, I think there's something out there and some of us have different perceptions.

You're an Atheist because your brain fire's that way, I'm agnostic because of the same principle.
I have a lot of Atheist friends, and they know I'm a bit out there, but they give me the respect to be the way I am,and I'm not suggesting I'm not getting that respect here either.

It doesn't mean either of us is any less intelligent than the other,and I know that has nothing to do with the conversation.

By the way did you have a fruitful afternoon out picking fruit ?

nthclare · 12-09-2020 11:40pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

surely this is trivial?
atheism means 'does not believe in a god', not 'does not suffer fear of things which would appear to be an irrational reaction if viewed in a clinical manner'.

Ok Kudos to you, you got me there I'm snookered.

I can't respond to that unless I'm stubborn and digging my metaphoricall heels in and hellbent on staying up until 4am waffling away.

Where will we go now ???

nozzferrahhtoo · 12-09-2020 11:41pm

nthclare wrote: »

It shows that Atheists are as fearful of the unknown just as much as thiests are.

Hardly. What it shows is that humans are fearful in situations where their safety or control is compromised, or they feel exposed to attack. From unknown houses to dark forests, we are evolved to feel threats in the dark. This is not the "unknown" it is the "uncertain".

We are scared in dark foreboding forests because many generations of evolution are made up of survivors who were too. The ones who were not scared at all, got killed easier. Simple as.

nthclare wrote: »

I don't need to research it or plagerise some scientist from an internet site to prove it.

Yeah no one talking unsubstantited nonsense feels they need to back up their claims. That's kinda a constant around here.

However I am not sure the word plagiarize means what you think it does. Citation and plagarisation are entirely different things. People citing a work of science are not plagarising anything.

If you want to accuse anyone of ACTUAL plagarisation however, then man up and do it directly rather than vague generic side swipes into the void.

nthclare wrote: »

Oh I'd say in the back of 20% of self proclaimed atheists mind's they still wonder if there's demon's, souls or dietys etc

I have no doubt you would SAY it. But SAYING it does not make it true, credible, likely, substantiated, or anything but you vocalising your navel gazing.

If you want to do more than SAY it and actually substantiate it in some way, I am all ears myself.

nozzferrahhtoo · 12-09-2020 11:44pm

nthclare wrote: »

My atheist is bigger than your atheist

And yet none of the ones posting on this forum seem to track with your fantasy anecdotes either. So I am not sure it is the anecdote pissing contest you want to pretend it is. Amazing that you can know not just one or two, but "a lot" of these supposed atheists. Yet between this forum and the 100s I have worked with in my life I can not find a single one tracking with your descriptions. So forgive me if I simply do not buy what you are selling here.

nthclare wrote: »

But I do believe there's demon's and souls, I think there's something out there and some of us have different perceptions.

You likely do believe it. What you appear entirely unable to do however is substantiate that belief in even the smallest way. Demons. Souls. Tree fairies or whatever it was you were out spotting the other day. You have not even the smallest shred of evidence for any of it do you?

In which case I have no ability to take it any more seriously that people who claim the political elite are actually lizard aliens dressed up in human suits.

nthclare · 13-09-2020 12:00am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And yet none of the ones posting on this forum seem to track with your fantasy anecdotes either. So I am not sure it is the anecdote pissing contest you want to pretend it is. Amazing that you can know not just one or two, but "a lot" of these supposed atheists. Yet between this forum and the 100s I have worked with in my life I can not find a single one tracking with your descriptions. So forgive me if I simply do not buy what you are selling here.

You likely do believe it. What you appear entirely unable to do however is substantiate that belief in even the smallest way. Demons. Souls. Tree fairies or whatever it was you were out spotting the other day. You have not even the smallest shred of evidence for any of it do you?

In which case I have no ability to take it any more seriously that people who claim the political elite are actually lizard aliens dressed up in human suits.

I'm not trying to suggest you should believe me about demons etc.

I don't have the evidence for your cognition, nor do I have your way if thinking either so I can accept that, I have no problem with you being an atheist.
I know Atheists,and that's it they're content with their lack of a god.
I respect that.

I'm not selling anything here, maybe you engage with Atheists like the poster's here who still like to debate about something that doesn't exist and bring in education, abortion the hazzards of belief and all sorts of things into this forum, and politics dressing it up as a hobbyhorse "seriously". Those subjects belong in other forums.
And has nothing to do with Atheism, nothing.

My friends whom are Atheists accept their Atheism and are not hammering out the same old mantras about , show me the evidence, you're not selling me anything, so what there's no evidence.

They're not on boards.ie debating something they're sure about and like yourself and others at the same old mantras...
The like discussion and debates but they don't engage in online forums about the existence of God.

They have better things to discuss, like hunting, fishing, surfing, hiking and biking.

So maybe we both associate with different Atheists.

looksee · 13-09-2020 9:18am

My friends whom are Atheists accept their Atheism and are not hammering out the same old mantras about , show me the evidence, you're not selling me anything, so what there's no evidence.

They're not on boards.ie debating something they're sure about and like yourself and others at the same old mantras...
The like discussion and debates but they don't engage in online forums about the existence of God.

They have better things to discuss, like hunting, fishing, surfing, hiking and biking.

So just remind me again why you are here and not in the hunting, fishing, surfing, hiking and biking forums?

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-09-2020 9:41am

nthclare wrote: »

I don't have the evidence for your cognition

Why me particularly? I see no reason to make it about me. You seem to be unable to substantiate the existence of the mythical creatures and spirits to which you refer in any way. Let alone for "my coginition" personally.

nthclare wrote: »

Those subjects belong in other forums.
And has nothing to do with Atheism, nothing.

Except it really does. And declaring what belongs in this forum, or not, is entirely outside your purview to be honest. The post above mine is nail on the head really.

Rather than school you on why you are so wrong on what belongs here however, I shall allow Micheal Nugent to do it for me. If your attention span can not hold to 3 minutes 20 seconds of video, its actually quite watchable in 1.25x speed too.

nthclare wrote: »

So maybe we both associate with different Atheists.

That is one possibility. The other possibility is of course the atheists you describe simply do not actually exist. I can not know either way of course. All I have are strong suspicions borne of experience from your posting history on the forum up to and including your belief in the existence of quite a lot of things there is absolutely no evidence for from "souls" to some kind of hippy tree spirits.

looksee · 13-09-2020 9:45am

Now you leave 'hippy tree spirits' out of this, I am quite partial to tree spirits. At least there is evidence for trees, and spirits can mean anything you want it to. And there is no dogma or fund raisers. I can happily contemplate a tree.

nthclare · 13-09-2020 10:05am

looksee wrote: »

So just remind me again why you are here and not in the hunting, fishing, surfing, hiking and biking forums?

I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.

Remind me again, why you are interested in a discussion about something you're already confident about and there ain't nobody going to have the prof of the existence of God, but you still feel the compulsion to come here to have an aul chat now and again.

Have you any other interests yourself.

If you as a moderator frequent this forum a lot, you should realise by now that I'm an agnostic and if you can ask me questions about why I am here It's fair enough for me to ask you similar questions.

So I think I'm going to stop it there and stick to the topic, because this discussion is pointless.
We're both going off track here to be honest.

And I'm a divel for getting distracted and like a bird in a storm I sometimes get blown off course and this time I'd prefer not to end up in Greenland

Ash.J.Williams · 13-09-2020 10:07am

sallyanne12 wrote: »

Complete the poll and let us know

We rot

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-09-2020 10:09am

looksee wrote: »

Now you leave 'hippy tree spirits' out of this, I am quite partial to tree spirits. At least there is evidence for trees, and spirits can mean anything you want it to. And there is no dogma or fund raisers. I can happily contemplate a tree.

Well if we are fermenting some produce from the tree into a drinkable spirit I am more than happy to contemplate that with you any time

Much like decay and rot, which the user took strange issue with before, I quite like to contemplate trees too. Because I do not just see the tree. Tall magestic and colorful as it is, I see past that also and see all the processes in and behind it too. Because science has informed me to see that level of beauty as well the superficial more obvious beauty of it all. One of my personal favorites is how trees "manipulate" the laws of physics to suck water up without causing it to boil. As I recall the video ends with the man saying "I will never look at trees the same way again" and to be honest, I never have since watching the video through either.

looksee · 13-09-2020 10:13am

Because its a discussion forum. What does your being an agnostic have to do with anything, are agnostics the only ones allowed to discuss anything? Its a bit like saying, right you are a cyclist, you know all about cycling and you enjoy it, what else is there to say?

What does my moderator status have to do with anything? There's another mantra - I am only a moderator in my own forums. And why should I be expected to remember your particular belief identity? I just go on the arguments put forward.

nthclare · 13-09-2020 10:29am

looksee wrote: »

Now you leave 'hippy tree spirits' out of this, I am quite partial to tree spirits. At least there is evidence for trees, and spirits can mean anything you want it to. And there is no dogma or fund raisers. I can happily contemplate a tree.

Yes there's an after life for tree's, I know where there's a huge yew tree that's absolutely amazing.

Taxus can be a life saver too

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9781785481451500040

It can also be used to make a long bow, and has the potential to kill and if ingested it could also poison you.

Wherever it grows it drops needle's which basically makes the soil sterile, and it can kill farm animals too.

The druid's thought the yew trees were magical, maybe they are in some ways.

I'm glad you believe in tree spirit's, and of the mind that spirit's can be anything you want them to be.

Tree's are sacred that's for sure, sacred in my view and probably the most important thing on this planet.
But sadly too many people are caught up in other things to appreciate the beauty of the trees.

Trees are good and sorry for bringing the hippy tree spirit's into this.

But between the Oak, Yew and Hawthorn they're my top three tree's

Look I'm off on another tangent again...

nthclare · 13-09-2020 10:54am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Why me particularly? I see no reason to make it about me. You seem to be unable to substantiate the existence of the mythical creatures and spirits to which you refer in any way. Let alone for "my coginition" personally.

Except it really does. And declaring what belongs in this forum, or not, is entirely outside your purview to be honest. The post above mine is nail on the head really.

Rather than school you on why you are so wrong on what belongs here however, I shall allow Micheal Nugent to do it for me. If your attention span can not hold to 3 minutes 20 seconds of video, its actually quite watchable in 1.25x speed too.

That is one possibility. The other possibility is of course the atheists you describe simply do not actually exist. I can not know either way of course. All I have are strong suspicions borne of experience from your posting history on the forum up to and including your belief in the existence of quite a lot of things there is absolutely no evidence for from "souls" to some kind of hippy tree spirits.

I never mentioned hippy spirits, it was yourself and someone else who came up with that one.
I ain't no hippy to be honest, I look and dress more like a biker or heavy metal dude rather than a hippy.
And I am definitely not a hippy that's for sure.
As for the Atheists I described, they definitely exist and a lot of them don't really agree with Michael Nugent either whos definitely an activist and Athiest Ireland are not representing anyone only their own group or committee.
Unless of course people will put him up there on a pedestal like an architypical leader or something.
He's not very funny either, I prefer Billy Connolly or Dave Allen having a skit about organised religion.
They are funny he's not.
Michael sounds like a nice guy, but his humour and metaphors have been done for year's and he's just trying to be funny there.
I was in Galway one day and came across him, he's far too much of an activist for my liking.

I like the way you suggest that my attention span could be questionable, I can sit for hour's and design a park or garden, do leather craft and woodcraft for hours on end.

Questioning my attention span is just throwing a spanner in the works,and a few little digs here and there isn't exactly what I think is a fair way to have a discussion.
I've no interest in undermining your lack of belief in god's, spirit's or am trying to suggest that you're a hippy dippy type, and I'm not interested in preaching or suggesting that people here would have a better lifestyle if they were like me.
I'm just someone who's interested in paganism, mythology and nature.

I respect your standing in society, and don't want to be bringing what sub culture we both find ourselves in, so what's with the hippy thing ?

Tails142 · 13-09-2020 11:00am

Electrical activity in the brain stops and then that's it. C'est fin!

robindch · 13-09-2020 11:10am

nthclare wrote: »

Unless of course people will put him up there on a pedestal like an architypical leader or something.

The only people I know who claim that Mick Nugent speaks for all atheists in Ireland are religious. Mick, AI and all atheists I've asked are quite clear that Mick speaks for himself and, occasionally, for AI.

It's not a hard distinction to figure out, but I can't help but think that religious people, who would be familiar with priests speaking constantly for the church and its flock of sheep, are simply thinking that atheists are the same.

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-09-2020 11:25am

nthclare wrote: »

I never mentioned hippy spirits, it was yourself and someone else who came up with that one.

If you say so. I can only say that "Woodwose and other cryptoids" sound pretty hippy dippy to me.

nthclare wrote: »

As for the Atheists I described, they definitely exist and a lot of them don't really agree with Michael Nugent

Yeah just like the theists who wander in here tell us their god "definitely" exists. Adding the word "definitely" merely eaves your beliefs as unsubstantiated as they were before.

As for Nugent, I agree with him on many things, and disagree with him on many others. I linked to his 3 minute talk because he put my answer to your nonsense about topics in this forum better than I could myself. But of course as per usual you play the player and not the ball and rather than respond to WHAT he said in the video, you just comment on him instead.

Your MO is showing.

The point of the video was a response to your claim that certain topics do not belong in this forum. Your pretence to be some kind of moderator of the forum aside, the video answers EXACTLY why those topics DO belong here. But you ignored all that and responded to none of it. As. Per. Usual.

John Hutton · 13-09-2020 11:52am

I've always found it interesting that some* atheists give out about the controlling nature of religion and the freedom they believe it denies, despite the fact that they are materialists. The end result of materialism is a denial of the existence of free will !

*Seems incorrect to lump all those who are not a member of a club under the one hive mind umbrella

kapisko1PL · 13-09-2020 12:06pm

I think we just cease to exist.

But I have made a very interesting observation.

Everything in life is based on cycles. You walking is a cycle, blinking your eyes is a cycle, breathing, your heart beat is a cycle, wheel rotation is a cycle, electromagnetic radiation including visible light is a cycle. All of the above have a defined cycle that repeats itself. Each of those have a crest and a through, amplitude and a frequency.

Therefore I would not be surprised if we, as beings in one form or another are just part of this cycle. We live, die, and live again until we die and come back and live again, in one shape or form or another. We have a midpoint which is where we start, crest where we are in our 40s, midpoint again when we die, then a through when we are in the "upside down" or another life and the cycle repeats. Same as everything else in life.

This is just purely based on my own personal opinion.

o1s1n · 13-09-2020 12:11pm

nthclare wrote: »

I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.

They are not mutually exclusive terms.

Most people who say they're 'agnostic, not atheist' are actually 'agnostic atheists'.

Gnostic_Agnostic_Atheist.png.72b579449ee7fceb26d0632e19e1e13b.png

Gnostic_Agnostic_Atheist.png.72b579449ee7fceb26d0632e19e1e13b.png

nthclare · 13-09-2020 12:23pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

If you say so. I can only say that "Woodwose and other cryptoids" sound pretty hippy dippy to me.

Yeah just like the theists who wander in here tell us their god "definitely" exists. Adding the word "definitely" merely eaves your beliefs as unsubstantiated as they were before.

As for Nugent, I agree with him on many things, and disagree with him on many others. I linked to his 3 minute talk because he put my answer to your nonsense about topics in this forum better than I could myself. But of course as per usual you play the player and not the ball and rather than respond to WHAT he said in the video, you just comment on him instead.

Your MO is showing.

The point of the video was a response to your claim that certain topics do not belong in this forum. Your pretence to be some kind of moderator of the forum aside, the video answers EXACTLY why those topics DO belong here. But you ignored all that and responded to none of it. As. Per. Usual.

A ball could go any direction, depending on the surface, wind direction and air pressure within the ball.

It doesn't have a metal ball in the middle which dictates it's direction upon rolling along the surface.

I know what he said in the video but I don't have to comment on what he said.
I don't have to answer your questions the way you think I should, you sound like you have control issues and unable to accept I've a mind of my own.

The existence of Woodwose and cryptology belongs to a different forum, not Atheism and Agnoticism.

They're not god's or spirit's, I have an interest in them, so what ?

I listened to that link again and it's just Michael on a podium explaining why there's Athiest convention's and he's trying to explain the madness of organised religion thinking that the creator told some guy not to collect stick's on a Sunday.
I agree with that, I've my own gripe with the Abrahamic religion, I've gladly broken away from the fold.
No problems there.

So it's a convention of Atheists who want to bring changes and they can meet up and discuss whatever they like.
That's ok isn't it, they're not harming anyone.

Not all Atheists want to be activists or go to convention's, some just do their own thing and get on with it.

They couldn't be arsed joining groups, but I can see the benefits of meeting people and sharing one's experience strength and hope.

By the way you're suggesting my Modus operandi is showing, what's my MO so ?

All I'm reading from your post's is that you haven't once asked me what type of pagan I am

I'm an old world pagan, I don't think there's any one God or god's that dictate my lifestyle, thought's and moral compass.

I'm interested in old crafts like, weaving, leather craft, hedge laying, willow sculpture, and bush craft.

The Abrahamic's called anyone who doesn't believe in their God a Pagan.

I have an interest in Chaos magic and how people can be manipulated by mass hysteria or how people think.

I'm not interested in witchcraft or wiccans etc or shamens.

I just go about my business, and I have a hope there is an afterlife, whether there is or there isn't that's my problem..

if there is I'll embrace it,if not my legacy will live in the heart's of my loved ones,and hopefully I'll leave something behind that will help my seed on this earth to prosper and live on and do good things.

If I die and that's it, I won't know about it.
So I'm completely powerless over that outcome.

I've an open mind about an afterlife, and accept it's possible.

You're still questioning it and looking for solid proof, so keep on searching for something you're sure doesn't exist.

Your call, maybe you might find it in those Bavarian Woods

nthclare · 13-09-2020 12:34pm

o1s1n wrote: »

They are not mutually exclusive terms.

Most people who say they're 'agnostic, not atheist' are actually 'agnostic atheists'.

I'm probably an agnostic atheist, but I prefer agnostic as it's shorter and easier to explain.

antiskeptic · 13-09-2020 12:47pm

Other. Eternal existence.

Either:

Eternal life. This, in Christianity, means our moving totally into the realm of God. We experience something of that realm already: if you love, relate to others. If you mourn evil and sickness and death. If you enjoy, learn, experience joy and happiness .. then you are experiencing the realm of God. Whether you believe in him or not makes no difference ("the Sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous alike")

Or

Eternal death. If you thrill in gossip and slander, if you lust, if you are selfish and mean and spiteful, if you thieve and thread on others wellbeing. Well, eternal death involves your being stripped of all characteristics of eternal life you currently possess and being left only with the remainder. (Just as eternal life means being stripped of all that is awful about you. Let's face it: we all exhibit characteristics of eternal life and death in our day to day life)

It's open to question whether you will be:

a) stripped of the ability to wilfully act out your death-characteristics. Those desires will be there still, but straitjacketed. You are given no opportunity to express your death desires- even your mind would be straitjacketed: desiring to think evil thoughts but unable to string thoughts together. Just desire to hate. That would be hell indeed

b) Or perhaps you will be free to carry out your death directed will. The trouble being that so will everyone else in that environment. No mercy, no empathy, no joy, no peace. Just hate: you hating them and them hating you. Hell indeed.

But it's fair. You want no God, you get no God. Not realising that all the good things you now experience and think of as belonging to and intrinsic to you are merely the image of him in which you were made.

All jettisoned by your own death-loving will. All jettisoned by your original sin: the desire to be god - held on til death do you part.

Thy will be done. Pray it to Him or pray it to yourself. The only gods in town.

nozzferrahhtoo · 14-09-2020 7:02am

nthclare wrote: »

I know what he said in the video but I don't have to comment on what he said.

Your response is, much like the lead up to it you used, a load of balls. No one said you "have to". I merely noted that an ongoing MO from you.... and I am not the first user on the thread to note it either, is to avoid discussion, dodge discussion, shut down discussion or simple ignore what is said to you and go off on unrelated tangents.

Which makes quite rich your pretence to moderate the forum and tell us what topics fit here or not. It seems this is mediated by which topics YOU want to discuss or not.

However you falsely claimed that certain topics do not belong here, and the video from Nugent explains precisely why you are, and continue to be, wrong in this regard. Ignore and dodge at will.

nthclare wrote: »

Not all Atheists want to be activists or go to convention's, some just do their own thing and get on with it.

Again no one said they do. The point of the video was to explain to you that political topics in a world dominated by religion and believers DO very much belong in an atheist discussion forum. Because atheists often discuss those topics in the context of a society heavily influenced by religious opinions about those topics.

So you can dodge discussing certain topics.... from politics to tree fairies.... by delcaring them to be unfit for the forum. But what is fit, or unfit, for discussion in this forum is not your call. You avoiding those topics is your call. Nothing more.

nthclare wrote: »

I've an open mind about an afterlife, and accept it's possible.

As do most, maybe all, people here on this forum. What some people, usually theists in my experience, often miss is that noticing and acknowledging that there is ZERO evidence for something at this time... is not the same as thinking it is not possible. Sure an after life is possible. Sure a god is possible. Sure some tree spirit inhabiting trees with some kind of soil or consciousness is possible.

Those things being POSSIBLE however does not change the fact that we not only have little but we have absolutely ZERO substantiation for any of them at this time. Other than "hope" or self delusion there appears to be no reason to expect any of them to actually exist or be true at this time.

nozzferrahhtoo · 14-09-2020 7:03am

antiskeptic wrote: »

Eternal life. This, in Christianity, means our moving totally into the realm of God. We experience something of that realm already: if you love, relate to others. If you mourn evil and sickness and death. If you enjoy, learn, experience joy and happiness .. then you are experiencing the realm of God.

That's just a narrative commercial advertising move though. You are merely listing aspects of the human condition that pleasure you and equating them with the word "god" to make the word "god" look good by proxy.

People making adverts tend to use the same ploy. They can be selling a car and they use sounds and imagery to associate positive things with the car that actually have nothing at all to do with cars or driving. Usually to distract from the fact they have no specific arguments going for their particular car at all. Much like time and time again when asked you have no substantiated whatsoever for the existence of either a god or an after life.

antiskeptic wrote: »

a) stripped of the ability to wilfully act out your death-characteristics.

I asked you before but you dodged it a few times, but you have not shown we have free will at all in the first place. So you are imagining us being "stripped of" something you have not even shown we have in the first place.

antiskeptic wrote: »

But it's fair. You want no God, you get no God.

What has "want" got to do with it at all? The only thing I "want" is to know what is true about the universe and our place in it. What that truth turns out to be.... I could not care less myself. I do not want there to be a god. I do not want there not to be a god. The only thing I would want, is to know the truth either way.

And at this time there is not just little, but zero evidence (least of all from you) to suggest there is one. That simple fact is entirely independent of my wants. You MIGHT want there to be evidence for a god. Wanting it apparently has not helped you find any in all these years though.

But the thread is not about god per se, but about an after life or what happens when we die. IT is entirely possible for there to be an after life but no god for example. But thus far all the evidence and knowledge we have about consciousness links it to brains. There is no evidence whatsoever at this time showing one operating independently of the other. So similar to your god, we currently have no reason to expect an after life either.

nthclare · 14-09-2020 9:42am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Your response is, much like the lead up to it you used, a load of balls. No one said you "have to". I merely noted that an ongoing MO from you.... and I am not the first user on the thread to note it either, is to avoid discussion, dodge discussion, shut down discussion or simple ignore what is said to you and go off on unrelated tangents.

Which makes quite rich your pretence to moderate the forum and tell us what topics fit here or not. It seems this is mediated by which topics YOU want to discuss or not.

However you falsely claimed that certain topics do not belong here, and the video from Nugent explains precisely why you are, and continue to be, wrong in this regard. Ignore and dodge at will.

Again no one said they do. The point of the video was to explain to you that political topics in a world dominated by religion and believers DO very much belong in an atheist discussion forum. Because atheists often discuss those topics in the context of a society heavily influenced by religious opinions about those topics.

So you can dodge discussing certain topics.... from politics to tree fairies.... by delcaring them to be unfit for the forum. But what is fit, or unfit, for discussion in this forum is not your call. You avoiding those topics is your call. Nothing more.

As do most, maybe all, people here on this forum. What some people, usually theists in my experience, often miss is that noticing and acknowledging that there is ZERO evidence for something at this time... is not the same as thinking it is not possible. Sure an after life is possible. Sure a god is possible. Sure some tree spirit inhabiting trees with some kind of soil or consciousness is possible.

Those things being POSSIBLE however does not change the fact that we not only have little but we have absolutely ZERO substantiation for any of them at this time. Other than "hope" or self delusion there appears to be no reason to expect any of them to actually exist or be true at this time.

I think we have hit a brick wall here, in my last post I said there's an advantage for Atheists who go to convention's and it's good to meet up and discuss whatever.

We moved on from that and as for me playing a moderator well, you're only plagerising the same old mantra over and over.
Let it go, for the sake of a paragraph.

My last post pretty much wrapped my response to your post and you still have to bring in other poster's to our discussion.

I don't know if you're insecure or just need validation or you're grasping at straws and haven't enough to make a straw man...
But it's quite clear I put my cards on the table and you have a blind spot.

looksee · 14-09-2020 10:36am

antiskeptic wrote: »

Other. Eternal existence.

Either:

Eternal life. This, in Christianity, means our moving totally into the realm of God. We experience something of that realm already: if you love, relate to others. If you mourn evil and sickness and death. If you enjoy, learn, experience joy and happiness .. then you are experiencing the realm of God. Whether you believe in him or not makes no difference ("the Sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous alike")

Or

Eternal death. If you thrill in gossip and slander, if you lust, if you are selfish and mean and spiteful, if you thieve and thread on others wellbeing. Well, eternal death involves your being stripped of all characteristics of eternal life you currently possess and being left only with the remainder. (Just as eternal life means being stripped of all that is awful about you. Let's face it: we all exhibit characteristics of eternal life and death in our day to day life)

It's open to question whether you will be:

a) stripped of the ability to wilfully act out your death-characteristics. Those desires will be there still, but straitjacketed. You are given no opportunity to express your death desires- even your mind would be straitjacketed: desiring to think evil thoughts but unable to string thoughts together. Just desire to hate. That would be hell indeed

b) Or perhaps you will be free to carry out your death directed will. The trouble being that so will everyone else in that environment. No mercy, no empathy, no joy, no peace. Just hate: you hating them and them hating you. Hell indeed.

But it's fair. You want no God, you get no God. Not realising that all the good things you now experience and think of as belonging to and intrinsic to you are merely the image of him in which you were made.

All jettisoned by your own death-loving will. All jettisoned by your original sin: the desire to be god - held on til death do you part.

Thy will be done. Pray it to Him or pray it to yourself. The only gods in town.

If these are supposed to be Christian ideas they are not ones that I have ever heard, or that Jesus taught. They are remarkably detailed in their fantasy.

This bit

a) stripped of the ability to wilfully act out your death-characteristics. Those desires will be there still, but straitjacketed. You are given no opportunity to express your death desires- even your mind would be straitjacketed: desiring to think evil thoughts but unable to string thoughts together. Just desire to hate. That would be hell indeed

has almost porngraphic undertones. As I recall, Jesus's strongest threat was that people who did not believe in him would not experience an afterlife with god. He didn't discuss the specifics of the bdsm details. What is your source?

Mark Hamill · 14-09-2020 11:17am

Was away from boards for few days, only getting back to this thread today.

John Hutton wrote: »

As I said, some people just don't "get it". That's ok.

I have first hand lived experience of believing in Santa as a child and God (both as a child and, in a much different way, an adult) - I can remember the feelings you are talking about as a child. I can tell you that religious faith is an altogether different experience. It might look the same to you - but I can say that the reality for the believer is far different. I am saying that the lived experience of "faith" is different to other beliefs such as in Santa as a child.

Well, I would hope that you experience things as an adult in a different way to how you experienced them as a child. But much like how religion moved heaven from the top of the tallest mountains, to in the clouds, to now somewhere non physical, your faith has merely become less tangible and more esoteric, rather than more rational and justified. You believe more complex and abstract things for, fundamentally, the same child-like reasons.

John Hutton wrote: »

[Incidentally, I have found that there are rational arguments for God, although this thread is not the place to discuss them. For example, I found Aquinas quite compelling on this, and also in particular the contingency argument.]

I would be very interested in hearing any rational arguments for God, so please start a new thread if you have any. If the contingency argument is what I think it is, then it is an horrifically cynical and faithless cheat. Even if you picked the correct god, it will likely still result in extreme punishment, gods not being known for appreciating when humans try to outsmart them and all.

What do you believe happens when we die

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