"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

razorblunt · 15-05-2019 8:58am

Weepsie wrote: »

That's the best reasoning for not doing it. But they had 7 lined up on one side, possibly another 7 on the other.They could nearly have been shooting them in such a way while reloading that they were getting shots off constantly.

I know I'm looking too much into this. Sure they could've fired one at Dany and done us all a favour.

I asked the writers, they said "the Lannister army forgot they could fire scorpions at that moment".

Sleepy · 15-05-2019 10:52am

Brendan Filone wrote: »

But the bell ringing signifies surrender so if Cersei forces then use an arrow on a dragon it effectively ends the ceasefire and the battle legitimately continues ...with Danny not looking as mad, but just carrying on the fight .

Exactly. It gives her character some motivation for her continued assault with the cheers of the common folk being her "reason" for burning innocents alive.

Instead we get a character who, until this very moment, has been a champion of the downtrodden and defender of the innocent decide to barbeque those she championed because her nephew refused to shag her.

TheIrishGrover · 15-05-2019 12:14pm

Well, what I will say is, the whole arguments about the people not loving Dany not making sense does actually. I took it as a sign of her descent into madness and paranoia: Of COURSE they don't love her. For all the reasons posted in this thread:

They don't know her.
She has dragons, Dothraki savages, Unsullied. Northern savages and maybe even wildlings (For all they knew in Kings Landing)
For a generation the Targaryans have been the bogeyman.
She's says she's been fighting ice zombies in the North. How crazy is she?

So all of these would, as various people have stated, would stop people from loving her and would actually cause them to fear her. Her unreasonable assumption that people would simply instantly love her and her rage at the fact that they don't is in indicator of her paranoia.

My only real complaint about this was that they could have spent a bit more time on it. You had flashes: With the Tarleys, at the banquet, in this episode but, if they had spread out over the typical 10 episodes then they could have given this more time.

The White Wolf · 15-05-2019 12:29pm

Lone Stone wrote: »

me too sigh... i mean it's good for what it is, but it's not what the actors and fan's and every one who worked on the show deserves after nearly a decade of work, just blah feck the character arch's feck all the prophecies ! lets just burn a city with a dragon. I mean we got nothing with cerise absolutely nothing she just stood around like she was a vicious tactical lady, and thats what they did with her crying under some rocks aye.

Sure we will get it in the book, shame really. Come on Georgie boy we need your book !

I remember thinking the extended wait would be worth it if they were putting everything into giving us a coherent 6 episode closure of the story. I think that's one of the biggest downers for me because what they gave us wasn't worth a near 2 year wait.

ThunbergsAreGo · 15-05-2019 2:13pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Exactly. It gives her character some motivation for her continued assault with the cheers of the common folk being her "reason" for burning innocents alive.

Instead we get a character who, until this very moment, has been a champion of the downtrodden and defender of the innocent decide to barbeque those she championed because her nephew refused to shag her.

I dont think she has been, maybe its because I hated her character but she has always used military force to get what she wants and destroyed EVERYONE who got in her way - and those associated with them.

This isn't too far out of her character. She probably expected the people of Kings Landing to be waiting with "Ee love you Dragon Queen" signs

Hyzepher · 15-05-2019 2:45pm

From her perspective it becomes a little clearer.

She effectively came to the rescue for everyone in the North. She sacrificed dragons and her army to defeat the night walkers. But in the aftermath no one saw her as the hero. There were no tributes to her and the opposite was happening. Sansa/Arya still skeptical of her etc.

She needs the praise. She considers herself the Queen - she got none. Jon has started to pull away from here and she realised that love was not going to be the binding force between herself and the people. Not like it had been before in Essos.

But her lust for the throne hasn't waned. She's bent over backwards to plan her attack on Kings Landing to please her advisers and yet nothing good has come of it.

If she has ceased the attack when the bells rang out then she'll have given up her only hope of sitting on the throne. No one was ever going to "vote" her in over Jon. She would never be the people's champion. The only way was fear and it was fear that she chose.

I don't think she ever thought that the city would surrender, that Cersei would surrender. Her plan all along was for the city to burn, the surrender just made her look more like a tyrant than she planned but the outcome was the same.

So now it falls to the others to decide which of them can challenge her and she is betting that no of them will after the show of force she just gave them.

She hoped to be loved and sit on the iron throne, to be the queen that everyone wanted. But her desire to be queen was the sleeping force, she is just as power hungry as all that went before her, her desire to "help" the people as been seen to be the smoke screen it has always been. A lie that maybe she believed herself until the threat of losing the throne became too real.

Penn · 15-05-2019 2:52pm

From Season 2, when the dragons were still just young pups, when the lords of Qarth refuse to let her in.

Daenerys Targaryen: When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!

She has always been destined for this. She fed off the love her people and advisors had for her because she was the Khalessi and mother of dragons etc etc, but she was always on the edge of just destroying everything in her path to get what she wanted.

Unpossible · 15-05-2019 2:57pm

I think two things that might help explain her actions:
1. She has been raised on stories of how her family merely need to show up with an army and the westros houses and people will simply flock to them. The usurper will be denounced and will be made pay for the rebellion. It must be incredibly jarring to find out that your family are not only seen as tyrants, but that your claim on the throne is suddenly gone as well.

2. She did say she would break the wheel. I guess levelling kings landing does break the old system.

She was warned in one of the books and in an earlier season that turning up in westeros with an army of unsullied won't convince people she is on their side.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-05-2019 3:07pm

I'm fine with Dany's heel turn tbh, thought it was one of few very good moments from the past two seasons.

She put everything on the line to do the right thing and fight the night king, postponing and risking not achieving the goal she's been obsessively working towards her whole life.

More time to lay the groundwork would have paid off big time there (other big part where that showed glaringly, as Sleepy pointed out, was the whiplash speed of Jaime's about turns) but the writing has been on the wall somewhat since episode two and her reaction to Jon's revelation. Not ew gross I've been fcuking my nephew, not oh my god I thought I was absolutely alone in the world and it turns out there's another, but immediately straight to "you have a better claim to my throne".

She's spent the show's run championing the downtrodden, breaking chains etc AS PART of her quest for the Iron Throne, she's explicitly rejected opportunities to build on and solidify the revolutions she's achieved if it meant giving that up. And as a means towards and end it's always worked for her.

It wasn't working any more. Since she's gotten to Westeros she's lost two dragons, at least two very close advisors and the bulk of her army and she perceives (accurately or otherwise) that all that loss will just lead to the people throwing their lot in with Jon anyway. She can't make any headway with Sansa, Varys betrayed her, Tyrion's calls have been consistently wrong. (Yara's presence probably would have made a big difference, I wonder will she make an appearance next week.)

She's right at the point where everything she wanted is in her grasp and also so, so close to slipping away. At previous similar crossroads she's pretty consistently gone for decisive violent action.

A pretty consistent theme of the show is that power and love of it currupts. The people who were least motivated by it for its own sake - Ned, Robb, the Hound, Davos, Brienne, Jaime, Arya are the least corruptible most morally consistent characters; those on the other end of the scale - Cersei, Littlefinger, Joffrey, arguably Theon in early seasons the most all over the place.

Dany has been just as fixated on the acquisition of power as they were, but with loftier window dressing. She finally came up against a situation where she (thought she) had to decisively choose between power and mercy, love and fear, and showed precisely where her red lines for the whole "break the wheel" thing are: between her and the throne.

So, that was grand. Jaime and Euron was AWFUL, that detail about fighting with a knife not a sword strikes me as a very GRRM detail and I'm excited to read whatever permutation of whatever fight that ends up being but JESUS.

Ehh, Cleganebowl too. My OH hasn't read the books, wouldn't really follow any online fan things. He watched it again with me and asked "can you explain the stakes of that to me, I've missed something" and was nonplussed to find out, nope he hadn't. One thing about this director that drives me insane as well is the stupid choppy editing in hand to hand fight scenes, it was the same in them both, cut cut cut every 2 seconds. Used to be one of my favourite things about the show that they so deliberately and consistently avoided that, if two characters were fighting you had a very clear sense of them as bodies in a space and in relation to each other, not just a nauseous sense of body parts and weapons in random motion. Last good example I remember of the classic style was the Tower of Joy fight.

The scenes of chaos and destruction in the streets were outstanding though, I think over time they'll hold up better than a lot of the last third or so of the series run.

Oh well, one more week.

tommy2bad · 15-05-2019 8:07pm

Selena Raspy Lady wrote: »

I'm fine with Dany's heel turn tbh, thought it was one of few very good moments from the past two seasons.
[snip]

It wasn't but it could have been. Checks thread, ok this is the book readers one, Danny's still struggling in the books to learn how to rule and to be honest her arch could go either way. Hero or villain, doesn't matter as long as we get a good story and see it develope. We the viewers shouldn't have to do the heavy lifting to develop the characterisation so we get to the end point. Hero ending is one option and so is villan but you cant hedge your bets for 95% of the story so you can have a surprise twist at the last minute. Having her become the thing she fights against can be done well, see Godfather II, but this is the worst posible way to do it.
As to Jamie and Cersi, that could go either way in the books too, but not in the TV show, it was just stupid to have Jamie turn at this point, their was no need for him to be at winterfell if that was the ending in mind other than to pay fan servise to him and Brienne and surprise us, again bad writing. Tyrion becoming stupid for no reason other than to give suport to Dannies turn along with a few other inconsistencies realy drive home the fact that D&D had an end point but no clue how to pace the plot to get us there. They wanted a big twist because thats what it's about right? Ned, red wedding, purple wedding all about the shocks.
In fairness Lena Hadly's non acting acting realy helped in this episode, probally the most touching part of her whole story was the ending, I actualy felt sad for her.

TerrorFirmer · 15-05-2019 9:07pm

I think Jaime had to create distance between himself and Cersei to ultimately realise that his life would never be complete without her. He toyed with the whole alternative life with Brienne and realised it was hollow and he would never truly be happy living like that. Cersei is his toxic addiction, and the love flowing from his end of the arrangement has always been purer, but he's always come back to her despite the frequent coldness and cruelty she has shown him. But in the end, they genuinely and deeply love each other.

Her acting really made that end scene as well. A decidedly cruel end for her, desperately afraid, pleading with a dying Jaime to somehow save her and their unborn child, knowing that it is her actions have led her to this point from which there is finally no return, no escape, no magic reprieve.

Poor tragic Jaime - all he wants is to be with Cersei, in life or in death. It's enough for him, it's not enough for her, but they meet the same fate regardless, dying together just like they were born together.

As someone who regularly craps on this season through sheer disappointment, I can't commend D&D enough for somehow knocking that one out of the park, giving both such fitting ends that tie together and avoiding some predictable, cliché ending where Cersei gets roasted and Jaime rides off into the sunset with Brienne.

I know it's not for everyone but for me it'll be the endearing memory of S8, and it genuinely mattered to me as both were my favorite characters hands down. In a way, I care less about what happens Jon, Daenerys, and the rest of the merry band.

I think Tyrion is the only one left I'm rooting for to have an ending he deserves, if the narrative can spare him any further cruelty.

And please god don't let Cersei be somehow not dead...please.

dsmythy · 15-05-2019 9:24pm

If they can't confirm Cersei is dead (she is but nobody knows this) I'd imagine it becomes part of the last episode, is she dead or did she escape thanks to Tyrion.

J. Marston · 15-05-2019 9:31pm

Of course Cersei is dead. I'm seeing this a lot around the internet where people think she's alive. She's beneath the entirety of the Red Keep more or less and why would she live and not Jaime?

My paranoia is making me think people have looked at leaks and are "guessing" stuff trying to be clever.

I'm on to you all....

TerrorFirmer · 15-05-2019 9:43pm

I think about that a fair bit, while I've no intention of seeking out leaks, I've no doubt that loads of speculation posted here and elsewhere is extremely 'informed'....

The odd time I see something absolutely daft and seriously out-there posted and I almost panic, thinking that's actually so absurdly daft and specific it could be real and based on a leak...

Paddy Cow · 15-05-2019 10:23pm

Penn wrote: »

From Season 2, when the dragons were still just young pups, when the lords of Qarth refuse to let her in.

Daenerys Targaryen: When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!

She has always been destined for this. She fed off the love her people and advisors had for her because she was the Khalessi and mother of dragons etc etc, but she was always on the edge of just destroying everything in her path to get what she wanted.

Since Viserys died, she has sought power (and vengeance when things didn't go her way) and it didn't help that her advisers, while trying to control her more brutal urges, have always told her that she is wonderful and awesome and a most excellent leader. Their devotion to her fed into her ego and literally created a monster.

Tyrion finally learned that in this episode. He has known for ages what she is and had conversations with Varys about it and instead of listening to his instincts, he sold out Varys and is largely responsible for what happened in KL. Tyrion used to be one of my favourite characters because he was so resilient and insightful despite his physical shortcomings but they really have butchered his character the last couple of seasons.

Foxtrol · 15-05-2019 10:41pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Tyrion finally learned that in this episode. He has known for ages what she is and had conversations with Varys about it and instead of listening to his instincts, he sold out Varys and is largely responsible for what happened in KL. Tyrion used to be one of my favourite characters because he was so resilient and insightful despite his physical shortcomings but they really have butchered his character the last couple of seasons.

It's what happens when you give up the drunkenness and whores. They were what was really powering his great ideas

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-05-2019 10:45pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Since Viserys died, she has sought power (and vengeance when things didn't go her way) and it didn't help that her advisers, while trying to control her more brutal urges, have always told her that she is wonderful and awesome and a most excellent leader. Their devotion to her fed into her ego and literally created a monster.

Tyrion finally learned that in this episode. He has known for ages what she is and had conversations with Varys about it and instead of listening to his instincts, he sold out Varys and is largely responsible for what happened in KL. Tyrion used to be one of my favourite characters because he was so resilient and insightful despite his physical shortcomings but they really have butchered his character the last couple of seasons.

Turns out Penny was the brains of the operation all along :pac:

His character probably really has gone to sh1t, liked his scene with Jaime this week but it's dun been a while since he had anything good. Scene with Sansa I also liked but felt a bit unearned to say the least

It'd be a fcuk of a lot more obvious if it wasn't in the hands of an actor of Dinklage's calibre. Kind of lost count of the times I've thought "He's up to something, he knows something, he's got some pla...nope". Dinklage is conveying a lot of shades of grey that are not there in the writing for him imo.

I kind of like the idea of him losing or overestimating his judgement, being someone who used to be able to always get out of any situation, see any move miles ahead and finding himself suddenly unmoored and outmatched. But I don't actually know if that's what they're going for on purpose.

16-05-2019 1:22am

It finally came up in work for the first time really this season. The two other people had absolutely no idea why Dany would go mad and why she stopped being the good guy.

It may have been rushed but it was logical. One of them had no idea that her father wanted to burn KL, and she considers herself to be a big fan.

So oddly, the only episode I quite liked this season despite some issues, was the only one they didn't like. I guess I liked it because while o hoped it would happen, I didn't think the show would have the balls anymore to do it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 16-05-2019 6:17pm

Liam O wrote: »

The inconsistency is the only thing stopping that being a great episode. Drogon fire can only knock down walls when Jon isn't behind one. Dany only cares about innocent people until the plot needs a new antagonist. Scorpions a super weapon one minute and completely useless the next. Cersei Ice Queen one minute and sympathetic the next. I could go on. Thought it was good but again, doesn't really make much sense in the grand scheme of things.

The King's Landing guards are as incompetent as the Winterfell guards so at least that's somewhat consistent

So, you and everybody you know has but one personality characteristic? Is it that outlandish to think that Cersei might have the ability to love, or feel regret?

I think a lot of people who reportedly dislike the show/season/episode are really upset that certain characters did not meet the correct ending.

If it's one thing that ASOIAF has proven is that nothing is certain.

Paddy Cow · 17-05-2019 10:14am

Deleted User wrote: »

It finally came up in work for the first time really this season. The two other people had absolutely no idea why Dany would go mad and why she stopped being the good guy.

It may have been rushed but it was logical. One of them had no idea that her father wanted to burn KL, and she considers herself to be a big fan.

So oddly, the only episode I quite liked this season despite some issues, was the only one they didn't like. I guess I liked it because while o hoped it would happen, I didn't think the show would have the balls anymore to do it.

She can consider herself a big fan but if the part about the Mad King wanting to burn KL went over her head then she can barely call herself a plastic fan. Did she miss the scene with Jamie and Brienne in the bath? The numerous mentions throughout the show? Dany's constant reminders that she's the rightful heir to the throne? Honestly, did you ask her how she missed it?

Riddle101 · 19-05-2019 8:36pm

Strange to think that there is only one episode left of the whole series. Those who watched it from the very beginning will probably find it very emotional. I wonder if there will be something special at the end similar to the end credits of the Lord of the Rings Return of the King to remember all the characters who have come and gone in the series. Would be nice to have a throwback to characters like Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister, Joffrey Baratheon, Stannis Baratheon, Littlefinger, Olenna Tyrell. The list could go on really.

is_that_so · 19-05-2019 9:53pm

Riddle101 wrote: »

Strange to think that there is only one episode left of the whole series. Those who watched it from the very beginning will probably find it very emotional. I wonder if there will be something special at the end similar to the end credits of the Lord of the Rings Return of the King to remember all the characters who have come and gone in the series. Would be nice to have a throwback to characters like Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister, Joffrey Baratheon, Stannis Baratheon, Littlefinger, Olenna Tyrell. The list could go on really.

I think you'll find people split on it all.

"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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