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"None of our children on the list are getting these houses"

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    #752
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    particularly with the champagne socialist, what did he think the alternative was? cut spending by what? 20-30 billion a year? LOL! Even the mickey mouse welfare cuts and public service cuts were a drop in the ocean, imagine they had to balance spending! :rolleyes:

    they could have so easily , just use the time to savage government spending and clear house of all the quangos, set us up for a recovering economy to best all and when the tax receipts started climbing cut taxes until it stayed matched and made us a haven for high earning professionals, but instead they kept spending and kept taxing and now Ireland is bleeding professionals and importing low skilled net detractors.


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    #753
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    they could have so easily , just use the time to savage government spending and clear house of all the quangos, set us up for a recovering economy to best all and when the tax receipts started climbing cut taxes until it stayed matched and made us a haven for high earning professionals, but instead they kept spending and kept taxing and now Ireland is bleeding professionals and importing low skilled net detractors.

    I agree about the problem with professionals and the marginal tax rate etc. They have put themselves into a serious and idiotic bind here. I cant way to see what happens over the next few years! Literally their obsession every budget is increase welfare and mainly buy off the pensioners. I cant wait to see what this budget brings, I dont think the money is there to waste any more. They have to do something about housing for the masses, this will cost. Health is a black hole. I dont know whats going on with public sector pay, but no doubt a review there isnt far away and the infrastructure here is a disgrace, they are going to have to start to committing the big sum, to at least the metro line, that they have skirted around for decades!


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    #754
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    I don't blame people trying to get social housing whatsoever.

    If, through their own mistakes or others, they've missed opportunities to make a better life, what are they supposed to do?

    It's all well and good criticising them, but the cost of housing/rent is extortionate. Average person in Dublin is supposed to get their hands on 400k? Crazy stuff.

    There are a few relatives of mine, working decent jobs in Dublin, decent money, and they're at their wits end with accommodation. If they had a chance to get social housing they'd bite the hand off you.

    Desperation. That's the word. That's this country and it's supposed quality of life for many, desperate.

    And before the old chestnut raises it's head, no, not all people have to live in Dublin. But "removing" less fortunate people (and the guaranteed few percentage that are genuinely lazy) into areas of even less opportunity is a plan a brainless ape would concoct. That's just another sneaky way to circumvent the main issue by lumping the problem onto others. A vain attempt to relieve pressure on yourself.


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    #755
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    beejee wrote: »
    I don't blame people trying to get social housing whatsoever.

    If, through their own mistakes or others they've missed opportunities to make a better life, what are they supposed to do?

    It's all well and good criticising them, but the cost of housing/rent is extortionate. Average person in Dublin is supposed to get their hands on 400k? Crazy stuff.

    There are a few relatives of mine, working decent jobs in Dublin, decent money, and they're at their wits end with accommodation. If they had a chance to get social housing they'd bite the hand off you.

    Desperation. That's the word. That's this country and it's supposed quality of life for many, desperate.

    look, I think the pittance of a rent they are expected to pay or dont pay is a disgrace. But they have put even hard working people into such fcuked positions, of course it makes sense to get a social house if you can! you have hit the jackpot if you get one!


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    #756
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I agree about the problem with professionals and the marginal tax rate etc. They have put themselves into a serious and idiotic bind here. I cant way to see what happens over the next few years! Literally their obsession every budget is increase welfare and mainly buy off the pensioners. I cant wait to see what this budget brings, I dont think the money is there to waste any more. They have to do something about housing for the masses, this will cost. Health is a black hole. I dont know whats going on with public sector pay, but no doubt a review there isnt far away and the infrastructure here is a disgrace, they are going to have to start to committing the big sum, to at least the metro line, that they have skirted around for decades!

    Real interesting since every party on the left has a raging hard on for a higher social protection spend and higher marginal rate taxation.


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    #757
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    Money well spent IMO.

    Ironic though. If we didn't undertake the bailout, we wouldn't have been able to pay those billions of welfare either.


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    #758
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    look, I think the pittance of a rent they are expected to pay or dont pay is a disgrace. But they have put even hard working people into such fcuked positions, of course it makes sense to get a social house if you can! you have hit the jackpot if you get one!

    That's just it.

    This housing situation is a disgusting joke, and make no mistake, the joke is on most of us, working, unemployed, homeless, chancers, children, children's children, pensioners... We're all in it up to our necks.


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    #759
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    beejee wrote: »
    And before the old chestnut raises it's head, no, not all people have to live in Dublin. But "removing" less fortunate people (and the guaranteed few percentage that are genuinely lazy) into areas of even less opportunity is a plan a brainless ape would concoct. That's just another sneaky way to circumvent the main issue by lumping the problem onto others. A vain attempt to relieve pressure on yourself.

    Yet it's ok for working people (and I realise those in social housing work) to move out of Dublin and have massive commutes, and pay massive rents, and have less security with regards to tenancy.

    That's not a dig at social housing or people in it, the system just seems to be a problem. We aren't that big a country, only being able to housed in specific areas seems very inefficient.


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    #760
    Politelymad
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Politelymad


    The system badly needs to split the working poor from the non working.

    Those who have never worked and are of working age with no health issues should be moved out of the cities.

    If we build housing units in ones and twos in the various towns and villages of the country where land is much cheaper you provide employment for smaller builders who can't do giant developments. You also avoid the kind of concentrations of social housing which caused Ballymun type problems.

    All of this would reduce demand within the cities on housing and transport. In addition once people are placed there is a beneficial side effect of moving social welfare money out of Dublin and enabling the better use of local facilities like schools, shops, etc.

    Finally the whole business of people refusing offers should be done away with. Keep the medical grounds for the likes of wheelchair users but the 'it's not near me mam' should never have been humored in the first place. Take what your offered or do without.


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    #761
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    vriesmays wrote: »
    Of course they're lower than the UK/USA - they have the best universities, we have yellow pack ones.

    No, they are lower because they are heavily subsidized.
    In 2008 it was ~10k per student, in 2018 it dropped to half that.


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    #762
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Politelymad wrote: »
    The system badly needs to split the working poor from the non working.

    economies of scale are going to be required for such a system, so there will in all likely hood be areas where a split won't actually be viable. in fact a split at all may not be viable. i would expect the various criteria do cause as much of a split as is possible already anyway.
    Politelymad wrote: »
    Those who have never worked and are of working age with no health issues should be moved out of the cities.

    that is not going to be viable.
    for a start massive investement in the supporting infrastructure to make that work properly will be required, that will be expensive and would ultimately not be spent on.
    Politelymad wrote: »
    If we build housing units in ones and twos in the various towns and villages of the country where land is much cheaper you provide employment for smaller builders who can't do giant developments. You also avoid the kind of concentrations of social housing which caused Ballymun type problems.

    you also end up having to as i said, provide massive infrastructure to cater to 1 off and 2 off housing. that is definitely not viable, we are struggling to do it as it is . + the smaller builders would earn more by being subcontractors to the bigger ones i would expect.
    Politelymad wrote: »
    All of this would reduce demand within the cities on housing and transport. In addition once people are placed there is a beneficial side effect of moving social welfare money out of Dublin and enabling the better use of local facilities like schools, shops, etc.

    it actually wouldn't really in the long run as those people will be replaced.
    as social wellfare people move in to the more rural areas, there will be people leaving for the cities where the opportunities are, so ultimately you end up with the same thing as ballymun etc in the long run. a bit more spread out, but ultimately the same issues.
    that is why it has not been done, and likely won't be. at least if there is any sense.
    Politelymad wrote: »
    Finally the whole business of people refusing offers should be done away with. Keep the medical grounds for the likes of wheelchair users but the 'it's not near me mam' should never have been humored in the first place. Take what your offered or do without.

    the refusals is a non-issue, take what your offered or do without isn't viable for everyone.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #763
    thegetawaycar
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭thegetawaycar


    end of the road wrote: »
    economies of scale are going to be required for such a system, so there will in all likely hood be areas where a split won't actually be viable. in fact a split at all may not be viable. i would expect the various criteria do cause as much of a split as is possible already anyway.



    that is not going to be viable.
    for a start massive investement in the supporting infrastructure to make that work properly will be required, that will be expensive and would ultimately not be spent on.



    you also end up having to as i said, provide massive infrastructure to cater to 1 off and 2 off housing. that is definitely not viable, we are struggling to do it as it is . + the smaller builders would earn more by being subcontractors to the bigger ones i would expect.



    it actually wouldn't really in the long run as those people will be replaced.
    as social wellfare people move in to the more rural areas, there will be people leaving for the cities where the opportunities are, so ultimately you end up with the same thing as ballymun etc in the long run. a bit more spread out, but ultimately the same issues.
    that is why it has not been done, and likely won't be. at least if there is any sense.



    the refusals is a non-issue, take what your offered or do without isn't viable for everyone.

    While I agree with most of that, the last point is simply incorrect, the refusal IS an issue, other than health issues if you are being supported by the tax payer then you go where you're put. If you want a say on where you are put then you pay for your own.

    I've said it many times but social housing in Dublin should mostly be for those who need to be there and are providing a public service eg. teachers, nurses and gardai. The payments should be based on the wages (circa 20%), taken directly from the pay packet and the housing should be retained by the council forever.


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    #764
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    You can buy a 1 bed apartment for 150k or less. not every one needs to live in a 3 bed house .

    https://www.daft.ie/dublin-city/property-for-sale/?s%5Bmxp%5D=150000


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    #765
    vriesmays
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭vriesmays


    Eco pod for €20K.


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    #766
    Liamo57
    Closed Accounts Posts: 157 ✭✭Liamo57


    I bet none of them work and they all probably smoke and their contribution to the Exchequer is nil as is their past generation and their offspring. These people are no good to any society. They are all leeches and parasites. Get up off yer hole's and work.


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    #767
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Liamo57 wrote: »
    I bet none of them work and they all probably smoke and their contribution to the Exchequer is nil as is their past generation and their offspring. These people are no good to any society. They are all leeches and parasites. Get up off yer hole's and work.

    Go have a lay down and rest your head Liamo.


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    #768
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,608 ✭✭✭Feisar


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    Go have a lay down and rest your head Liamo.

    Care to expand on your position?

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #769
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Liamo57 wrote: »
    I bet none of them work and they all probably smoke and their contribution to the Exchequer is nil as is their past generation and their offspring. These people are no good to any society. They are all leeches and parasites.

    yeah, yeah, sure.
    Liamo57 wrote: »
    Get up off yer hole's and work.

    work where? what employer would employ those people if they are as you claim? none with any sense i would expect.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #770
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    end of the road wrote: »


    that is not going to be viable.
    for a start massive investement in the supporting infrastructure to make that work properly will be required, that will be expensive and would ultimately not be spent on.


    Why do you need massive infrastructure?
    It's not like these people will be commuting anywhere.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting building houses in fields, but there have to be options between a field and the city centre.


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    #771
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Why do you need massive infrastructure?
    It's not like these people will be commuting anywhere.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting building houses in fields, but there have to be options between a field and the city centre.




    you don't know that they won't need to get around.



    quite simply, infrastructure would be needed to insure the areas can cope, and to prevent the issues of last time we simply threw people together and left them to their own devices.
    the current option of housing people where the supports for them are available is the only option and i would imagine, the cheapest, otherwise there would have been a change.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #772
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    end of the road wrote: »

    quite simply, infrastructure would be needed to insure the areas can cope, and to prevent the issues of last time we simply threw people together and left them to their own devices.
    t

    The ballymun excuse is long gone , different times
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #773
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Gatling wrote: »
    The ballymun excuse is long gone , different times


    it's not an excuse. the fact regeneration had to happen shows this.
    correct it's different times hence similar is unlikely to happen again, different times over all does not prevent history from being repeated however.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #774
    Helgagirl
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭Helgagirl


    I would just like to make the point that Children's allowance is payable to everyone who has a child, not just people who are on social welfare. To the people saying that it should be stopped after the first child, a lot of people working and paying these exorbitant rents would be affected by that too. And it isn't as easy to get a disability allowance as the opinion here stated, there are stringent application processes that you have to qualify for to be eligible for it.


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    #775
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Helgagirl wrote: »
    I would just like to make the point that Children's allowance is payable to everyone who has a child, not just people who are on social welfare. To the people saying that it should be stopped after the first child, a lot of people working and paying these exorbitant rents would be affected by that too. And it isn't as easy to get a disability allowance as the opinion here stated, there are stringent application processes that you have to qualify for to be eligible for it.

    Why is being a junkie a disability?


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    #776
    corks finest
    Registered Users Posts: 8,639 ✭✭✭corks finest


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Why is being a junkie a disability?

    Or an alcoholic


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    #777
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,856 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Niner leprauchan wrote:
    Why is being a junkie a disability?


    Can a drug addict function normally?


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    #778
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    thegetawaycar wrote: »
    While I agree with most of that, the last point is simply incorrect, the refusal IS an issue, other than health issues if you are being supported by the tax payer then you go where you're put. If you want a say on where you are put then you pay for your own.

    Why? Why should needing help obliterate your humanity? it is bad enough needing help without this antediluvian thinking; the thinking that created the workhouses. "To each according to his need" includes social and other needs.

    We are all and each " supported by the tax payer " in some way; that is what taxes are for, to provide services for everyone.

    There is no shame in asking for the help that is there to be sought. None at all.

    If a house if offered that is eg in a bad area? And yes too far away from family? Family ties matter. And we are allowed to refuse anyways .

    I stayed off the housing list as there are places I could not live in. For many reasons. We had to be on the list to get RA then so I listed more remote areas.


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    #779
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Can a drug addict function normally?

    They can function fine when they are stealing from shops and mugging you. it's not a disability to deliberately make yourself unable to function.

    It's an addiction, not a disability


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    #780
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    end of the road wrote: »
    you don't know that they won't need to get around.

    Why do they need to "get around"?
    For what exactly? Commuting to their non existent job?

    The people we are talking about here are the long term welfare recipients, in some cases its generational. Housing them in the desirable locations that have infrastructure that they dont need is a waste of resources.


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    #781
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Why do they need to "get around"? For what exactly? Commuting to their non existent job?

    The people we are talking about here are the long term welfare recipients, in some cases its generational. Housing them in the desirable locations that have infrastructure that they dont need is a waste of resources.


    because they need to get around. why or where is none of our concern, once it doesn't involve going somewhere to break the law.
    the fact they are long term wellfare recipients won't change that reality.

    housing people where the infrastructure and supports they will need are is not a waste of resources, but a sensible use of resources and tax payer's money, because it saves the need to spend money on the implementation of infrastructure and supports in areas that are declining because humanity has decided that increased urbanisation is the way to go.

    .

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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