"None of our children on the list are getting these houses"

n97 mini

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

So it's not their manifesto that stated (almost a 20 percent increase)

"Bringing weekly working age social welfare rates in line with the MESL entails increasing the maximum personal rate to €245 and the Qualified Child Increase to €48.50 for children under 12 and €82.40 for children aged 12 and over. The estimated full year cost of implementing these measures is €1.8 billion."

You also weren't aware of the mix of houses they were providing, just listening to the broad strokes, like most of the country (to be fair). But when you are so vocal on certain issues, you really should understand you have voted FOR the things you decry

That's shocking. Makes working look even less attractive.

AulWan

Deleted User wrote: »

If they went about it as you suggest, he’d not be allowed stay there as it’s a one bed property. Not suitable for a family of 2.

That's right. Which is why its probably safe to assume they didn't do it, and hence why the council are now seeking an eviction in this case.

But notice how nothing is mentioned about him being on the tenant list in the article, its just "poor 62 year old being thrown out".

We all know of cases where adult children were allowed to remain in council accommodation after parents had died, but it was because they were on the tenancy list and rent assessed including their income.

Kivaro

Gatling wrote: »

Not everyone no ,

Thousands don't , when you consider how low rents actually are in council housing there is zero excuse for it ,rents should be increased and not just by €3 pw either and those who don't pay slán find your own place to rent at your own cost

It is actually tens of thousands who do not pay anything.
We will be scolded and told that they contribute money towards rent payment, but of course that money is supplied by the Irish worker in the form of HAP and similar systems, welfare payments and the other ludicrous handouts that they receive for not working.
Disclaimer: I am obviously talking about those who do not work as a lifestyle choice.

Let's not forget the multiple billions of tax-payer euros that is already earmarked for brand new houses/homes in the next few years for social housing. Non-contributing people will get state of the art houses plus substantial payments for new flooring, new appliances etc.

And to add to the ridiculous situation of new free forever homes to the non-contributors of society, is the amount of people who have yet to fly into Ireland from the far reaches of Africa and the Indian sub-continent who will receive these new homes. These new Irish will immediately have a much higher standard of living than many struggling low-income working Irish families, and much better than many older Irish people who have worked all their lives and now find themselves living in dilapidated old homes without adequate support structures from the government.

It is truly a surreal situation.

ThunbergsAreGo

Kivaro wrote: »

It is actually tens of thousands who do not pay anything.
We will be scolded and told that they contribute money towards rent payment, but of course that money is supplied by the Irish worker in the form of HAP and similar systems, welfare payments and the other ludicrous handouts that they receive for not working.
Disclaimer: I am obviously talking about those who do not work as a lifestyle choice.

Let's not forget the multiple billions of tax-payer euros that is already earmarked for brand new houses/homes in the next few years for social housing. Non-contributing people will get state of the art houses plus substantial payments for new flooring, new appliances etc.

And to add to the ridiculous situation of new free forever homes to the non-contributors of society, is the amount of people who have yet to fly into Ireland from the far reaches of Africa and the Indian sub-continent who will receive these new homes. These new Irish will immediately have a much higher standard of living than many struggling low-income working Irish families, and much better than many older Irish people who have worked all their lives and now find themselves living in dilapidated old homes without adequate support structures from the government.

It is truly a surreal situation.

None of this seems to be an issue for the wider electorate though

Geuze

Idbatterim wrote: »

l. SF didnt mention raising welfare anywhere, if they plan on doing what they said they would, they wouldnt have the cash to do it anyway.

Ah now, come on, SF are a socialist party, of course they plan to increase welfare rates.

They provide all the details in their manifesto.

22bn of spending increases, see Appendix 1.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2020/SF_GE2020_Manifesto.pdf

BanditLuke

Gatling wrote: »

Not everyone no ,

Thousands don't , when you consider how low rents actually are in council housing there is zero excuse for it ,rents should be increased and not just by €3 pw either and those who don't pay slán find your own place to rent at your own cost

Well weed them out on a one by one basis then but don't give me the "free house" guff it's insulting.

BluePlanet

While i detest inter-generational welfare recipients the realty is that the vast majority of those euros they get slip right through their fingers and into the tills of local businesses.
Capital Gains, stock dividends on the other hand, the vast majority leaves these shores.

Our tax system (and other tax systems the world over) is upside down.
Tax burden should be lifted from people's labour and placed onto to corporate profits and dividends.

Idbatterim

I wasnt aware of thei proposed social welfare increases, were they going to do anything about pensions? because FFG already have their grey vote twenty fiver euro lined up, there is another few hundred million. If SF propose linking what you paid in, to what you get out, I have no problem with select welfare increases!

But it wont be the wasters creaming off over two hundred a week!

Kermit.de.frog

Idbatterim wrote: »

I wasnt aware of thei proposed social welfare increases

That's a good chunk of the Sinn Féin voter base. The wasters will be looked after, don't worry about that.

Idbatterim

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That's a good chunk of the Sinn Féin voter base. The wasters will be looked after, don't worry about that.

it doesnt change my core point though. If they wall lavish the welfar recipients, but FFG want to rip you off on housing, I want to take a look at what SF would do on housing. Its an astronomic cost for most people. Even if FFG get back in, try another year or two etc of doing nothing, they are fcuked. Its a win / win

Idbatterim

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That's a good chunk of the Sinn Féin voter base. The wasters will be looked after, don't worry about that.

Kermit it has been explained in god knows how many news articles, why there was a swing from many working, non homeowners, to SF. Its so basic in concept, it doesnt need explaining

Geuze

SF on housing, in manifesto, p63:

https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2020/SF_GE2020_Manifesto.pdf


Sinn Féin priorities:
» Provide an additional €6.5 billion in order to deliver over 100,000 public homes on public land to
meet social and affordable housing needs
» End long-term homelessness and the need to sleep rough
» Reduce and freeze rents for three years
» Hold a referendum to enshrine the right to housing in the Constitution
» Introduce a comprehensive package of social housing reform
» Introduce a comprehensive package of private rental sector reform
» Make reducing house prices a policy objective
» Tackle land hoarding and speculation through a stronger vacant sites tax and a new Active
Land Management Agency. Sinn Féin will increase the Vacant Site Levy from 7% to 15%;
penalising the hoarding of land, bringing more land into use and driving down land prices.
» Transform Local Government with a programme of rolling devolution of powers to Councils
from state agencies and central Government
» Transform the delivery of water services through the creation of a fully public noncommercial semi-state water utility
» Hold a referendum to enshrine the public ownership of water services in the Constitution
» Fully implement the Recommendations of the 2019 Expert Group on Traveller
Accommodation


Sinn Féin’s public housing programme would:
» Deliver on average 20,000 public homes each year to meet social and affordable
need by investing an additional €6.5 billion
» Prioritise the use of public land for the delivery of public housing by Local
Authorities
» Increase the Part V obligation on private developments to 25%
» Staff Local Authorities to aggressively bring vacant private homes into use
» Ensure that a minimum of 7% of all public houses are designed for people with
disabilities and are fully wheelchair accessible
» Restore funding for Traveller specific accommodation to its 2008 levels
» End the use of PPPs, Joint Ventures and Land Initiatives in the delivery of public
housing
» Double funding for and improve access to housing adaptation grants for people
with disabilities at a cost of €57 million
» Increase the funding and targets for the retrofitting of public housing by
providing an additional €12 million of annual funding



Public Housing Reform
In Government, Sinn Féin would introduce a major programme of housing reform with a Public
Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. The aim of the Bill would be to reaffirm the public nature of
social and affordable rental housing and end the privatisation of social housing promoted by Fianna
Fáil and Fine Gael. The Bill would also introduce important reforms to modernise the delivery and
management of public housing stock.
In addition, we would work to develop a North-South facility to enable council list transfers.
The Bill would include measures to:
» Define public housing as social and affordable rental units owned by Local
Authorities and Approved Housing Bodies
» Define social housing supports such as ASH, RAS, and HAP as temporary
supports for those waiting to secure permanent public housing
» Enable all current ASH, RAS, and HAP tenants can return to the principal
housing list with their full years intact
» Raise the income limits for eligibility for social housing in line with inflation
» Facilitate social housing applications to move from one Local Authority to
another through the introduction of a social housing applicants’ passport
» Facilitate inter county public housing transfers and council list transfers
» Provide public housing tenants with access to the Residential Tenancies Board
» Allow Approved Housing Bodies access the Capital Advance Local Facility to
deliver mixed social and affordable public housing schemes

Kermit.de.frog

Idbatterim wrote: »

it doesnt change my core point though. If they wall lavish the welfar recipients, but FFG want to rip you off on housing, I want to take a look at what SF would do on housing. Its an astronomic cost for most people. Even if FFG get back in, try another year or two etc of doing nothing, they are fcuked. Its a win / win

Houses don't sprout overnight.

Completions and starts are going up significantly.

Only supply can solve the problem. But if you want to live in a society where, for example, the shinners introduce a rent freeze then all apartment/house building by the private sector will stop immediately.

So then all your left with is social housing estates being built all over the country for everyone which the state can't afford.

Be very careful with promises from the so called "left" - they don't add up and can't be delivered.

Idbatterim

"Why the notion that building more houses will cure our housing woes is bogus" read the below article. It makes sense to me, supply was throught the roof during the boom and prices kept escalating...


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/cantillon/why-the-notion-that-building-more-houses-will-cure-our-housing-woes-is-bogus-1.4188161

I read that earlier. supply is increasing massively, 100%. But its not affordable to the masses, that is the issue.

Only supply can solve the problem. But if you want to live in a society where, for example, the shinners introduce a rent freeze then all apartment/house building by the private sector will stop immediately.

say you introduce a rent freeze, are companies going to stop building , because their obscene profits, will be marginall less obscene? Put in a proper vacant or undeveloped site tax, problem solved. This has to be done anway, ronan lyons and david mcwilliams are always talking about it. Look, you simply cannot solve the problems here, with this "worst practice " method we adopt. but then again, FG have an issue, they want the rip off prices, but that this backlash was going to come, understandably, I have been saying it for years!

A few of you might be homeowners here defending it, but you wouldnt be standing for it, for one second, if you were paying rip of rent, living at home or couldnt get a deposit together...

Galwayguy35

end of the road wrote: »

got himself a job where?
do you think employers generally rush out to employ someone who is 62?

he's in Dublin he could get one if he really wanted to, I'm in rural Galway and i know a few people who managed to get jobs at that age.

He is a lazy git who just wanted to pull a fast one and got caught out.

Idbatterim

Kivaro wrote: »

It is actually tens of thousands who do not pay anything.
We will be scolded and told that they contribute money towards rent payment, but of course that money is supplied by the Irish worker in the form of HAP and similar systems, welfare payments and the other ludicrous handouts that they receive for not working.
Disclaimer: I am obviously talking about those who do not work as a lifestyle choice.

Let's not forget the multiple billions of tax-payer euros that is already earmarked for brand new houses/homes in the next few years for social housing. Non-contributing people will get state of the art houses plus substantial payments for new flooring, new appliances etc.

And to add to the ridiculous situation of new free forever homes to the non-contributors of society, is the amount of people who have yet to fly into Ireland from the far reaches of Africa and the Indian sub-continent who will receive these new homes. These new Irish will immediately have a much higher standard of living than many struggling low-income working Irish families, and much better than many older Irish people who have worked all their lives and now find themselves living in dilapidated old homes without adequate support structures from the government.

It is truly a surreal situation.

this is what I am saying, if people here cant join the dots and see where this is going... the economy is booming, the last budget, no tax cuts or welfare increases, in a pre election budget! Its unfathamotable for here! Wait for another few years of escalating lists and rising prices. Its going to explode...

Kermit.de.frog

Idbatterim wrote: »

"Why the notion that building more houses will cure our housing woes is bogus" read the below article. It makes sense to me, supply was throught the roof during the boom and prices kept escalating...


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/cantillon/why-the-notion-that-building-more-houses-will-cure-our-housing-woes-is-bogus-1.4188161

I read that earlier. supply is increasing massively, 100%. But its not affordable to the masses, that is the issue.



say you introduce a rent freeze, are companies going to stop building , because their obscene profits, will be marginall less obscene?

This nonsense is put in your head by these guys. It won't be viable. Do you know how much it costs to build an apartment in Ireland!? Or a house!?

What is going to happen to all the unemployed builders? Are they all going to be picked up at the same rates building all the social houses?

Simple solutions get stupid results.

The correct approach is the approach being taken now. Not the fantasy you are being sold. We would be in a far worse place.

Kermit.de.frog

Idbatterim wrote: »

I read that earlier. supply is increasing massively, 100%. But its not affordable to the masses, that is the issue.

Supply drives down cost.

Idbatterim

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This nonsense is put in your head by these guys. It won't be viable. Do you know how it costs to build an apartment in Ireland!? Or a house!?

What is going to happen to all the unemployed builders? Are they all going to be picked up at the same rates building all the social houses?

Simple solutions get stupid results.

The correct approach is the approach being taken now. Not the fantasy you are being sold. We would be in a far worse place.

listen I run a business. I have a fair idea of supply and demand etc. The arguments being put forward by many, are very simplistic, because the solutions arent simple. People want to deal in simple. I am doing up a ten thousand square foot house, I have a good idea! The government tax take is a scandal on new homes, if you are throwing out free housing, they can start there . Abolish stamp duty.

Any idiot can know, that with the correct current lending rules as set by the regulator. The cost of new builds, with current taxes, with current "standards" and left to the free market, is unfordable and will be , even in a few years, to most aspiring home owners or even renters, in dublin certainly. This **** is written about ad nauseum in the papers too, its not just my opinion. Its just obvious as hell!

Lets see how things pan out over the next 2-3 years and see who will be right... we can revert to this thread

Idbatterim

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Supply drives down cost.

not if there is ever increasing demand. I have read a lot about this subject. google "why increasing housing supply doesn't work" there are endless articles on it. They make sense to me. Look its great supply is increasing, at least more people will have a home. But say you cant wait around until you are nearly in the grave and actually qualified for social housing, what do you do as a single person on say 50k? live in a kip house share etc? you dont think at 50k, you should be able to buy or rent a one bed or even a studio?

Kermit.de.frog

The government can take other measures rather than interfere directly in the market.

They can simply allocate more to public and affordable housing and not touch the market at all if they want to.

end of the road

Gatling wrote: »

Not everyone no ,

Thousands don't , when you consider how low rents actually are in council housing there is zero excuse for it ,rents should be increased and not just by €3 pw either and those who don't pay slán find your own place to rent at your own cost

increasing rent is not viable as it may potentially bring undue hardship on people who may already be struggling, it would also likely increase the non-payment issue.
even for those who don't pay, the house is still not free, as they are obligated to pay rent and therefore the house is subsidized.
i would suspect that if your ideas were viable, i would suspect they would have been tried by now, the fact that they haven't, would suggest to me that they probably aren't.

Idbatterim

end of the road wrote: »

increasing rent is not viable as it may potentially bring undue hardship on people who may already be struggling, it would also likely increase the non-payment issue.
even for those who don't pay, the house is still not free, as they are obligated to pay rent and therefore the house is subsidized.
i would suspect that if your ideas were viable, i would suspect they would have been tried by now, the fact that they haven't, would suggest to me that they probably aren't.

there are people here on about twenty a year, paying 700-800 a month for a bedroom. So you can only be struggling, if in a social house? if you are in social housing, you are doing a hell of a lot better, than many working people!

end of the road

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

he's in Dublin he could get one if he really wanted to, I'm in rural Galway and i know a few people who managed to get jobs at that age.

could he? or is it as i suspect, a case of you wanting it to be the case then it actually being the case in reality?
again, do you think those who have the type of jobs he would likely to be only able to apply for, would be rushing out to employ someone of 62, or would they go for someone in their 20s?
do you think the people you know who managed to get those jobs at 62, would be in a majority or a minority?

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

He is a lazy git who just wanted to pull a fast one and got caught out.

is he? or is it a case that you want it to be the case?

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This nonsense is put in your head by these guys. It won't be viable. Do you know how much it costs to build an apartment in Ireland!? Or a house!?

What is going to happen to all the unemployed builders? Are they all going to be picked up at the same rates building all the social houses?

Simple solutions get stupid results.

The correct approach is the approach being taken now. Not the fantasy you are being sold. We would be in a far worse place.

clearly the current approach is not the correct approach given housing costs are high, regulation and rent freezes had to be brought in which ultimately didn't do much if anything to solve the issues, and the fact we are going to have to introduce an affordable and social house building program.
certainly, the current approach seems to be the correct one for a certain number, but not the nation as a whole, and the current electoral result is a massive clue that you are incorrect.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The government can take other measures rather than interfere directly in the market.

They can simply allocate more to public and affordable housing and not touch the market at all if they want to.

that's exactly what they did, it didn't work, the market didn't deliver, hence we have to move away from relying on it as it cannot deliver.

Idbatterim wrote: »

there are people here on about twenty a year, paying 700-800 a month for a bedroom. So you can only be struggling, if in a social house? if you are in social housing, you are doing a hell of a lot better, than many working people!

people can struggle in all sorts of housing, everyone's circumstances are different.
certainly, someone is in a better position if they are in social housing, but remember, the rent is based on their income, and if their income increases the rent will increase also, but there is no guarantee that such an increase won't be more then their income actually maybe able to support.

Geuze

AFAIK, the only way to get more supply, at lower prices, is to reduce costs.

Geuze

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Supply drives down cost.

More supply drives down price, is that what you mean?

But to get more private-sector supply, we need lower costs.

Galwayguy35

end of the road wrote: »

could he? or is it as i suspect, a case of you wanting it to be the case then it actually being the case in reality?
again, do you think those who have the type of jobs he would likely to be only able to apply for, would be rushing out to employ someone of 62, or would they go for someone in their 20s?
do you think the people you know who managed to get those jobs at 62, would be in a majority or a minority?



is he? or is it a case that you want it to be the case?

I've no idea if they are in the minority or not I'm just giving an example that if work can be found in my area it stands to reason he could get a job in Dublin if he was prepered to get off his arse and look for it.

But as usual you think this isn't possible so you are happy to let him leech away until he reaches pension age.

You should run for People Before Profit you are just the kind of candidate they look for.

end of the road

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've no idea if they are in the minority or not I'm just giving an example that if work can be found in my area it stands to reason he could get a job in Dublin if he was prepered to get off his arse and look for it.

But as usual you think this isn't possible so you are happy to let him leech away until he reaches pension age.

You should run for People Before Profit you are just the kind of candidate they look for.

i'm not sure i would be interested in running for politics, however pbp do seem to be somewhat realistic on this issue, just like myself.
being in dublin doesn't guarantee one a job, employers want people who meet certain criteria to take up their jobs, if you do not meet that criteria, no job. that's the moddern world.
i would suspect that you don't know that he hasn't got off his arse and looked for a job and has just had no luck. ultimately, only he knows whether that is the case or not. i certainly don't know either way, anyway.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've no idea if they are in the minority or not I'm just giving an example that if work can be found in my area it stands to reason he could get a job in Dublin if he was prepered to get off his arse and look for it.

But as usual you think this isn't possible so you are happy to let him leech away until he reaches pension age.

You should run for People Before Profit you are just the kind of candidate they look for.

There are dozens of places available on CE Schemes. He could spend a few years repaying society before he retires!