Skoda Enyaq

McGiver · 03-09-2020 4:05pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The socket would be pretty handy when hoovering the car!

It's only 150 W though. Honda E went with 1500 W

McGiver · 03-09-2020 4:08pm

slave1 wrote: »

Less battery size, more cars, more cars, more market share, more revenue.
Greedy stance

Cars which nobody will buy. Theoretical revenue. Marketing/sale strategy blunder.

KCross · 03-09-2020 4:31pm

McGiver wrote: »

It's a disgrace for VW if you ask me - and it's embarassing for VW they are even thinking 50 kW DC is an option for this type of car in 2021. And I know this is enforced by VW, Skoda wouldn't necessarily do this, it's VW thinking as they do the same with the ID3, the lowest battery also won't have 100 kW DC.

Its a case of wanting higher margins to recoup their costs quicker.

Tesla do the same with theirs just not via the charging speed. For Tesla it was the famed $35k version of the Model 3... which you more or less cant buy.

Apple solder their memory to the boards so you have to decide upfront what memory you need which "forces" you to buy higher end models rather than add cheap memory later.... its just business.

VAG are maketing these cars at <€30k (ID.3) and <€35k (Enyaq) but the reality is that they dont want to sell those, so they hobble them to force you to option it up to a price and margin that they will be happier with. Its nothing new... sure there was a time you had to pay for electric windows too!

Hurrache · 03-09-2020 4:32pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The socket would be pretty handy when hoovering the car!

Probably won't get it here or the UK. Their other cars come with similar sockets in Europe but here we don't get them at all, or a 12v in their place.

liamog · 03-09-2020 4:51pm

KCross wrote: »

Tesla do the same with theirs just not via the charging speed. For Tesla it was the famed $35k version of the Model 3... which you more or less cant buy.

It's not too long ago that Tesla were celebrated for offering software unlockable features, including battery capacity.

Black_Knight · 03-09-2020 7:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The socket would be pretty handy when hoovering the car!

You sir, need a cordless vacuum cleaner.

CoBo55 · 03-09-2020 8:30pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

You sir, need a cordless vacuum cleaner.

No he doesn't they're brutal... They just push the dirt around and don't actually suck anything. Give me Henry and the extension cable any day...

liamog · 03-09-2020 8:35pm

CoBo55 wrote: »

No he doesn't they're brutal... They just push the dirt around and don't actually suck anything. Give me Henry and the extension cable any day...

You appear to have bought a cordless hair dryer with a broken heating element.

CoBo55 · 03-09-2020 8:36pm

liamog wrote: »

You appear to have bought a cordless hair dryer with a broken heating element.

Ha ha, most likely...

CoBo55 · 03-09-2020 8:38pm

Can anyone explain in really simple terms the difference between all these different charging types/rates? I haven't a clue tbh... I'm like the tracker mortgage guy on the bus.

BBMcQ · 03-09-2020 9:34pm

The base VW or Skoda charges at a max rates of half that which people would consider “fast charging”. The industry leader for long distance electric driving (Tesla) prides itself on the way the newest cars with the newest charges can charge up to 250kwh. This means a 10 minute stop to a Tesla supercharger might get enough enough to hop to your destination. The same at 50kwh will be the guts of an hour.

For 99% of the battery electric car driving, you will use home charging and generally have round trip journeys less than 250km, but for trips it’s important to note motorways really kill the range of EVs. It’s their kryptonite. An EV with a WLTP range of 350km range will get 200-250 at 120kph.

Black_Knight · 03-09-2020 10:15pm

CoBo55 wrote: »

Can anyone explain in really simple terms the difference between all these different charging types/rates? I haven't a clue tbh... I'm like the tracker mortgage guy on the bus.

Charging types:
AC - slow charging. What you have at your house and typically what you'd see in towns, hotels, Tesco. They're capable of delivering up to 22kW of power. Your house charger or a hotel one would likely be only capable of delivering 7kW of power.
DC - fast chargers. Typically at motorway services. These are capable of delivering 44kW/50kW/150kW of power depending on the unit you're using. There are only about 5 places in Ireland which can supply 150kW though. Typically the units you'll find are 50kW.

Cars capability to charge at a rate:
50kW DC - the base versions of the id3 and the enyaq will come with a 50kW onboard charger as standard, so they can only ever at max take 50kW, regardless whether the unit they're connect to is a 150kW. At a constant rate of 50kW, you'll receive 50kW if power in 1 hour.
100kW DC - the mid versions of the id3 and enyaq will come with 100kW onboard chargers as standard, so they can receive a max of 100kW of power. On a 50kW charge point they'll only get 50kW. On 150kW charge point they'll get a max of 100kW.
150kW DC - on the top line versions, faster speeds.

^^ it be should be understood that these are max rates of charge for the car, and the car will not charge at these rates for 100% of the charge. You'll probably get a minimum of 50kW from 0% to ~80% depending on the DC charge point, but your 100kW capable car may only charge at 100kW for maybe 40%. It's unknown at the moment.

7kW AC - this is an onboard AC charger. At an AC charger you can get up to 7kW of power depending on the charger. 7kW is what your home charger will provide so if you never plan to use public charging it's all you'll need.
11kW AC - same as above, but at a 3 phase AC unit you can get 11kW of power. All (most) the esb and easy go units will provide up to 22kW AC so at these you can charge slightly faster than your home charger.
Not sure if there's higher AC rates on these cars, but you get the idea.

Battery sizes:
All these charging rates correspond to bigger battery packs. Typically because as your battery gets closer to full, you ramp down the rate of charge to protect the battery cells. So a bigger battery gives you a bigger portion of battery which you can use these high charge rates. Example- there'd be no point having a 150kW onboard charger for a 50kWh battery, because they'd probably limit it from using that high rate for only a few % of the battery. Pointless.

CoBo55 · 04-09-2020 9:17am

Thanks for those two posts lads, makes it very clear. It looks a nice car, be interesting to see the prices.

McGiver · 04-09-2020 9:29am

KCross wrote: »

VAG are maketing these cars at <€30k (ID.3) and <€35k (Enyaq) but the reality is that they dont want to sell those, so they hobble them to force you to option it up to a price and margin that they will be happier with. Its nothing new... sure there was a time you had to pay for electric windows too!

Do they really market it as sub 35k car? If they do then it's not honest.

Enyaq 50 even with the lowest specs won't be <35k in any market, maybe in some with the highest subsidies. I've seen figures of 36-7 or so.

Paying for extras is fine, but the DC charging really doesn't fall into that category. Especially if you even can't pay for the extra, which I believe will be the situation with Enyaq 50.

McGiver · 04-09-2020 9:50am

BBMcQ wrote: »

The base VW or Skoda charges at a max rates of half that which people would consider “fast charging”. The industry leader for long distance electric driving (Tesla) prides itself on the way the newest cars with the newest charges can charge up to 250kwh. This means a 10 minute stop to a Tesla supercharger might get enough enough to hop to your destination. The same at 50kwh will be the guts of an hour.

For 99% of the battery electric car driving, you will use home charging and generally have round trip journeys less than 250km, but for trips it’s important to note motorways really kill the range of EVs. It’s their kryptonite. An EV with a WLTP range of 350km range will get 200-250 at 120kph.

I did the maths for Enyaq 50. We'll see the real life energy efficiency, I don't think it will be great, the motor is quite weak for the weight of 1800+ kg, aerodynamics are good but that won't save that, so depends on the drivetrain as well.

So you're talking 45 minutes to charge from 20-80% which is 31 kWh, on 50 kW DC assuming reasonable charging curve at 43 kW average. What that's going to be in the winter...nobody knows, but I'd guess it's going to be >45 minutes.

So that's Kona charging session length on 50 kW DC but minus 30% of the range. Those 45 minutes will give you probably only 160 km usable motorway range vs 250 km for Kona. Now to bring it to a bearable 30 minute charging session and we're at 100 km range added Enyaq vs 160 km added Kona. Is that sufficient? I don't know...

KCross · 04-09-2020 9:57am

McGiver wrote: »

Paying for extras is fine, but the DC charging really doesn't fall into that category.

Why not?
Not everyone will want/need it. If you do, you option it.

McGiver wrote: »

Especially if you even can't pay for the extra, which I believe will be the situation with Enyaq 50.

I'd be surprised if they dont allow it as an option. The ID.3 AFAIK will allow it as an option on the entry level model, no reason why Enyaq would be different but we'll need to wait to see.

liamog · 04-09-2020 10:29am

McGiver wrote: »

Enyaq 50 even with the lowest specs won't be <35k in any market, maybe in some with the highest subsidies. I've seen figures of 36-7 or so.

Can you share them, the only one I've seen on thread is the 35.5k from Skoda Italy. Based on their pricing it's would put the Enyaq 50 below the ID.3 1st price here which means a rough estimate of 31k. I'd be interested in the same comparison in other markets.

Casati · 04-09-2020 10:29am

KCross wrote: »

Why not?
Not everyone will want/need it. If you do, you option it.

I'd be surprised if they dont allow it as an option. The ID.3 AFAIK will allow it as an option on the entry level model, no reason why Enyaq would be different but we'll need to wait to see.

Super fast charging is driven from a petrol/ diesel driver mentality of wanting to stop for max 10 minutes to charge. I think the mentality has to change when your driving an EV and get used to charging as often as you can and not like a petrol just refuelling when the light comes on.

Either way it seems like Skoda are offering it up to customers to choose what works for them. Once they see sales figures I’d imagine they will tweak the model offering.

No doubt VW didn’t expect as many to go for the base ID 3 for example but fair play to them for giving customers a choice.

Orebro · 04-09-2020 10:41am

Casati wrote: »

Super fast charging is driven from a petrol/ diesel driver mentality of wanting to stop for max 10 minutes to charge. I think the mentality has to change when your driving an EV and get used to charging as often as you can and not like a petrol just refuelling when the light comes on.

Try explaining that to your partner and car full of cranky kids.

I agree with the others here that say 50Kw DC charging is tech from a decade ago. I'm a BEV driver with 4 years now with very rare long journeys, and I still wouldn't consider 50Kw charging acceptable for the main car in a household.

Oh and 99% of people looking to purchase these aren't going to understand the differences in charge rates until its too late.

GreeBo · 04-09-2020 10:43am

Black_Knight wrote: »

You sir, need a cordless vacuum cleaner.

Perhaps one that I keep and charge in the car?:pac:

GreeBo · 04-09-2020 10:44am

Casati wrote: »

Super fast charging is driven from a petrol/ diesel driver mentality of wanting to stop for max 10 minutes to charge. I think the mentality has to change when your driving an EV and get used to charging as often as you can and not like a petrol just refuelling when the light comes on.

Think of it like internet access, sure we could all just plan our days better and use a 1200 baud modem, but when that is old technology and there are 500mb routers available, why would you still offer the modem to people?

KCross · 04-09-2020 10:46am

Orebro wrote: »

Oh and 99% of people looking to purchase these aren't going to understand the differences in charge rates until its too late.

I agree. Thats a much bigger issue actually.

Most people will not be able to distinguish or figure out kW vs kWh and AC vs DC.

Not sure how you can solve that.... expecting every EV to have 100kW+ charging and long range isnt viable either so somethings gotta give. No doubt people will make the wrong choices.

liamog · 04-09-2020 10:47am

McGiver wrote: »

I did the maths for Enyaq 50. We'll see the real life energy efficiency, I don't think it will be great, the motor is quite weak for the weight of 1800+ kg, aerodynamics are good but that won't save that, so depends on the drivetrain as well.

How does the power of the motor affect the efficiency?
Accelerating a car to a given speed is a physics problem, it takes a given amount of power to accelerate a car with a given weight from 0 to it's new speed. The motor power will certainly affect the time taken to get to that speed, but it won't affect the underlying power requirement.

Orebro · 04-09-2020 10:51am

KCross wrote: »

I agree. Thats a much bigger issue actually.

Most people will not be able to distinguish or figure out kW vs kWh and AC vs DC.

Not sure how you can solve that.... expecting every EV to have 100kW+ charging and long range isnt viable either so somethings gotta give. No doubt people will make the wrong choices.

We're getting to the stage though that cars like this new Skoda are going to be a main family car and not the second car like alot of EVs are these days. People need to be ultra careful about the DC charging rates for the main car for those longer road trips and holidays a couple of times a year.

Shocking lack of knowledge in the dealerships too - whether its intentional or not is another matter.

markpb · 04-09-2020 11:06am

Orebro wrote: »

Try explaining that to your partner and car full of cranky kids. I agree with the others here that say 50Kw DC charging is tech from a decade ago. I'm a BEV driver with 4 years now with very rare long journeys, and I still wouldn't consider 50Kw charging acceptable for the main car in a household.

50kW / 45 minutes is fine if you would stop for that amount of time anyway. That's probably true for a lot of family trips (it is my in our house anyway). It's useless if you're in a rush or if the charge location doesn't have somewhere good to eat. We made our first long EV family trip recently and opted to pay a premium for Ionity for that very reason. We stopped, grabbed a snack, had a toilet break and got back to an 80% charged car (toilet breaks with multiple children is like a black hole for time!). Then we had lunch in a place that suited us. I'm willing to make some changes to move to an EV but eating MSA food on every trip isn't one of them

Likewise when we're making day trips to see grandparents in future, leaving the motorway and hanging around for 45 minutes eats into a lot of time when someone else can change nappies and feed them too much chocolate. 150kw charge points are invaluable for that. Same applies for work trips.

Orebro wrote: »

People need to be ultra careful about the DC charging rates for the main car for those longer road trips and holidays a couple of times a year. Shocking lack of knowledge in the dealerships too - whether its intentional or not is another matter.

People won't make good decisions. It's a new technology, it'll take time for the general level of awareness and understanding to rise or for the technology offering/communication to improve. In the meantime, it'll be like the early days of the adoption of IT at home. People bought the wrong computers, the wrong internet connection and the wrong printer (all of them!) for their needs. They'll be annoyed, give out, refuse to buy from X manufacturer again but in time it will settle down.

Casati · 04-09-2020 11:43am

GreeBo wrote: »

Think of it like internet access, sure we could all just plan our days better and use a 1200 baud modem, but when that is old technology and there are 500mb routers available, why would you still offer the modem to people?

Okay so your saying going from 1200 baud to 500mb is the similar on a relative basis to going from 50 kw to 100kw? Surely that example is a wind up??

This article actually puts down what I was thinking in a better manner but I’m sure many of you here are more experienced than the journalist writing it

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/07/09/the-future-of-ev-charging-may-be-at-50kw-not-the-gasoline-thinking-of-250kw/amp/

Ultimately my view and that that seems to be shared by VW/ Skoda is that consumers should be given the choice and don’t presume they aren’t able to work out what they need.

If all ev’s come with ultra high range and super fast charging and amazing performance the problem will be that adoption of ev’s will stop as ordinary folk like me can’t afford them. Despite having a lot more high range expensive EV’s to chose from now it’s noticeable how the growth rate has dropped considerably here this year

04-09-2020 3:56pm

The real issue is 50 Kw cars taking up 150 Kw chargers for cars that can charge at higher power.

Mr Q · 04-09-2020 4:01pm

McGiver wrote: »

Do they really market it as sub 35k car? If they do then it's not honest.

The Enyaq 60 is already on the UK Skoda website for under 35k euro equivalent after their grant, which is only 3k GBP. So it seems honest enough to market it as a sub 35k car, especially as the 50 will be even cheaper.

McGiver · 04-09-2020 4:31pm

KCross wrote: »

Why not?
I'd be surprised if they dont allow it as an option. The ID.3 AFAIK will allow it as an option on the entry level model, no reason why Enyaq would be different but we'll need to wait to see.

No, they won't for Enyaq 50. It's becoming increasingly obvious. Where did you see that on the ID3?

VW won't allow it for the ID3 entry level 45 kWh. They will allow it for ID3 55 kWh and that's not the equivalent of Enyaq 50 but Enyaq 60. Skoda allow this as an option for Enyaq 60 - so that's inline with the VW "strategy" for ID3.

McGiver · 04-09-2020 4:31pm

Mr Q wrote: »

The Enyaq 60 is already on the UK Skoda website for under 35k euro equivalent after their grant, which is only 3k GBP. So it seems honest enough to market it as a sub 35k car, especially as the 50 will be even cheaper.

Link? Enyaq 60 won't be 35k EUR no way. 35k GBP maybe.

Skoda Enyaq

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