Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Dohvolle · 22-07-2022 10:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374331#Comment_119374331

Mach 2 has always been the experts advice, but Supersonic or Supercruise is also mentioned.

jonnybigwallet · 23-07-2022 2:28pm

All off to Bray tomorrow I guess. It looks like the Italians have pulled out their jet trainer from the event. I guess they got the cold shoulder from the AC, cos I imagine they were going to make a pitch to flog em to us?

donvito99 · 23-07-2022 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374026#Comment_119374026

Says your man pushing for fast jets...

donvito99 · 23-07-2022 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374897#Comment_119374897

I think your put downs are almost as useless as a squadron of Gripens.

jonnybigwallet · 23-07-2022 3:06pm

A very good piece of advice and one I have already taken on board. Never worth engaging with a keyboard warrior !

donvito99 · 23-07-2022 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377011#Comment_119377011

Jonny, coming from you, I take that as a great compliment.

We'll let yourself, Larbre and Dohvolle play soldier and hope that sense prevails in Newbridge.

Flinty997 · 23-07-2022 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376986#Comment_119376986

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

Still holding out for the F22/35 I see.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/no-engine-no-fly-ongoing-propulsion-program-problems-are-grounding-f-35s

https://eurasiantimes.com/us-air-force-faces-big-dilemma-over-fate-of-f-35-stealth-fighters/

donvito99 · 23-07-2022 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377053#Comment_119377053

Is it a "Nirvana fallacy" to believe that an island that will drag itself kicking and screaming to a future defence budget of €1.5bn p/a should think of nothing else but an actual navy, and only then consider anything resembling an air combat arm?

roadmaster · 23-07-2022 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377034#Comment_119377034

Genuine question, i asked one of the anti state posters here before and he/she refused to answer. How do you deal with a civilian aircraft that wont answer comms and looks like it may crash in to a populated area.?

This is not a made up senerio as it has happened in several countries

Ramasun · 23-07-2022 3:58pm

We need the radar systems first but could probably get away with drones and some land based missile systems for less than the cost of a fleet of jets and support staff.

Leasing a regional airport to the French or Spanish would be better than the current situation.

donvito99 · 23-07-2022 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377176#Comment_119377176

You let pilots and air traffic controllers do as they are trained to do in the event of a loss in communications.

If the flight crew is out of action, the plane likely crashes. If it's hijacked, the plane crashes. Are you going to procure Gripens to shoot down civilian aircraft?

Please outline the scenario in which the involvement of a fighter jet has offered any utility whatsoever?

Flinty997 · 23-07-2022 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377176#Comment_119377176

How many times in that situation has a military intervention lead to no deaths.

roadmaster · 23-07-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377203#Comment_119377203

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

In both incidents military aircraft where sent to investage and where able to give real time information to civilain controllers

Flinty997 · 23-07-2022 4:08pm

They still died, and tbh the military aircraft did nothing.

donvito99 · 23-07-2022 4:12pm

In both cases the aircraft crashed despite the military aircraft, killing everyone on board...

Lads, what is the point here? Do you have shares in Lockheed Martin.

There are currently two Russian submarines heading out into the Atlantic and our nearest neighbours are going to struggle to track them today and for the next few decades.

And where will Ireland be spending it's limited resources? To deal with the apparently existential risk posed by aeroplanes with dodgy radios...

Dohvolle · 23-07-2022 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377271#Comment_119377271

Why can't we do all the things?

Why do we have to choose continually between Air, Sea or Land?

Why do we rule out scenario after scenario saying "It'll never happen here/If it happened we could do nothing about it!"

Did every other nation in the world decide to decommission its air forces in 2001 because the USAF were unable to prevent 9/11?

Are we OK allowing the British to effectively control our sovereign airspace, while claiming to be neutral?

Had the Helios aircraft been heading for a centre of population, it would have been expected that it would have been shot down before reaching there. In this case, one of those aboard was able to alter its course. Another what if. Do we have to wait until an unresponsive A330 ploughs into Croke Park on All Ireland day?

Or do we take the experts advice and provide a proper basic level of defence at Air, Sea, Land, Cyber and Space? (Per CoDF).

Meanwhile I'll be adding don to my list or bores to ignore.

donvito99 · 23-07-2022 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377313#Comment_119377313

Jesus Christ. A330s plowing into Croke Park.

Why can't we do all things? Did you misread LOA2 as a bump to €1.5trillion?

If the Commission is to be believed, they have considered your threat, the threat of someone flying an aircraft into Croke Park, over and above the threat that has materialised for this island in both of the last two wars.

If you want to talk about sovereignty, let's talk about our non existent merchant marine, the dwindling numbers of escorts amongst the powers in Europe who can't be at home and across the world at the same time, as well as the simple physics of an aircraft's endurance being measured in hours and a submarine's being measured in months, not to mention their payloads...

Your Commission has called for a "balanced" navy as part of LOA 3.

That's it. That's all they wrote and it's absolute nonsense, and Dohvolle, I wouldn't be surprised if you're one of the retired civil servants that wrote the report, or an existing civil servant that crafted its terms of reference.

So go ahead, stick me on your lengthy ignore list. The risk of harm to you from hijacked civilian airliners is a lot lower if you stick your head in the sand.

Flinty997 · 23-07-2022 4:39pm

I'm not with Don. But you're not going to convince any one with such poor examples.

TBH the only solution some want is the top of the range one. Do every mission. Kinda kills any discussion of other possibilities.

Dohvolle · 23-07-2022 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377372#Comment_119377372

Granted, some are throwing types about like they picked the best scoring aircraft on Top Trumps. All I have been doing from the outset is repeating the advice being given by experts in the area from all over the EU, none of whom are trying to sell a product. Retired Air Corps officers too, the people best placed to know what is required.

Ireland’s Air Force Badly Needs Fighter Jets (forbes.com)

‘Ad hoc’ reliance on RAF squadrons leaves us completely dependent, seminar hears (lawsociety.ie)

https://youtu.be/DAH3nC8UxKM

This is what they are saying. Its in LOA3 also. LOA3 comes after LOA2. People seem to be struggling to read a publicly available document, which I have lost count of the amount of times I have linked to here.

gov.ie - Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces (www.gov.ie)

LOA 3 The Commission believes that achieving LOA 3 would require a very significant enhancement of the Air Corps’ capabilities, with commensurately higher levels of defence spending. A key element of a step up to LOA 3 would be the development of a national Air Defence Plan, with provision of a comprehensive air policing capability being central to this Plan. The provision of primary radar, as recommended in the context of LOA 2, is a key enabler of an air policing capability but, at present, the Air Corps has only an embryonic intercept capability, limited to slow flying aircraft and helicopters. Our lack of an intercept capability has been described by the Air Corps as a major gap in the State’s overall defence capability. Under LOA 3, the Commission envisages that, building on the advent of primary radar, the Air Corps would develop an air combat and intercept capability through the acquisition of a squadron of jet combat aircraft, allied to the development of associated operational, infrastructure and support arrangements

Flinty997 · 23-07-2022 5:41pm

I don't see "useless as a squadron of Gripens" anywhere in that...

roadmaster · 23-07-2022 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377271#Comment_119377271

Nope i have shares in Dassualt you can always be sure they are a safe bet as the french government will bail them out

jonnybigwallet · 23-07-2022 5:57pm

Such a load of bloomin cafuffle about the suggestion that the country needs 6 to 12 modern jet aircraft. Seems like a given to me....and rather minimal at that. I'd say 16 to 24 fighters and at least one proper airlifted and a new government jet should be the order of the day, and let's have a half dozen light attack helicopters into the bargain.

Psychlops · 23-07-2022 8:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377199#Comment_119377199

So thats your answer, shoot them out of the sky? You know missiles cant look into the cockpit & report if all is ok or not..

Larbre34 · 24-07-2022 12:44am

The bottom line argument for acquiring a Squadron of modern jet fighter/interceptor aircraft is, that another sovereign Country currently performs the tasks of a peace time defensive air force on our behalf and in our airspace.

As a modern wealthy Republic, that should be simply unacceptable to any citizen of this nation who values the Constitutional and Sovereign integrity of that Republic.

Leave aside the rare civilian incidents, the Russian Federation is doing its best to drag all of Europe into a war against it and one of these days it might succeed. We have no military allies and that's fine, its the choice of the People, but the People must recognise that choice comes with consequences.

The western approaches are littered with Russian submarines, warships and long range reconnaissance bombers, looking to probe, distract, test and generally occupy NATO assets. Those games of cat and mouse could turn into a live fight any day and the least that is expected of us as that wealthy Western democracy on the open flank of Europe, is to be able to protect our own back yard. At the moment, we cannot.

The old paradigm which let us live under the passive umbrella of NATO defence, is gone. The age of naivety goes with it.

And its time a couple of posters on here copped themselves on to that.

Flinty997 · 24-07-2022 12:49am

What are we likely to do vs Russian submarines, warships since you brought it up.

Ramasun · 24-07-2022 4:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378131#Comment_119378131

Radar to identify, drones to verify, missiles to eliminate.

Jet fighter fleets are almost defunct now, unless you're a quasi-dictator seeking a photo op.

jonnybigwallet · 24-07-2022 7:02am

I'm assuming then, that you consider countries such as Denmark, Sweden and the Netherlands fall into this category?

Dohvolle · 24-07-2022 8:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377586#Comment_119377586

Why would you?

jonnybigwallet · 24-07-2022 9:04am

Since the airport at Galway has been closed for many years (apart from the local flying club), why not take it over as a West Coast base for the AC? They've used it in the past...

Flinty997 · 24-07-2022 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379209#Comment_119379209

Why did you say it then?

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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