Changes to benefit the environment...

wrangler · 14-05-2019 5:56pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

So - I have a field, that furze is coming back into in a big way, and I need to do something with it...

Field is not accessible by tractor, so whatever will be done, it will have to be done by hand.

I am thinking spraying with Grazon is kinda the only option, but interested to hear if I have any other options...

Putting it in here, even though it kinda goes against what this thread is about. Unfortunately I cant let the field go wild with furze (which will happen in a few years if I do nothing) but I'm not gone on spraying either...

So - any suggestions?

Dig out or spray, are you sure grazon will kill them

yosemitesam1 · 14-05-2019 6:01pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

So - I have a field, that furze is coming back into in a big way, and I need to do something with it...

Field is not accessible by tractor, so whatever will be done, it will have to be done by hand.

I am thinking spraying with Grazon is kinda the only option, but interested to hear if I have any other options...

Putting it in here, even though it kinda goes against what this thread is about. Unfortunately I cant let the field go wild with furze (which will happen in a few years if I do nothing) but I'm not gone on spraying either...

So - any suggestions?

Roundup if they're small or cut and roundup on the stumps if they're big

PoorFarmer · 14-05-2019 6:03pm

yosemitesam1 wrote:

Roundup if they're small or cut and roundup on the stumps if they're big

Remember that these will fall into the same category as trees and hedges at this time of year so be careful how you proceed

Water John · 14-05-2019 6:20pm

Have a furze machine still in the yard. Was used to chop up 'aithean gaelach' for the horses and bedding I think. Hoses can't eat growing furze.

ganmo · 14-05-2019 6:44pm

PoorFarmer wrote: »

Remember that these will fall into the same category as trees and hedges at this time of year so be careful how you proceed

really?? Where did you come across that?

Capercaillie · 14-05-2019 7:00pm

ganmo wrote: »

really?? Where did you come across that?

Birds can be nesting in it now.

Dinzee Conlee · 14-05-2019 7:05pm

PoorFarmer wrote: »

Remember that these will fall into the same category as trees and hedges at this time of year so be careful how you proceed

No, they’re only small, up to your knee kinda size...
But - there is a lot of them, have the place covered...

Lady Haywire · 14-05-2019 7:06pm

Thought these were lovely to see today. Stonechat nesting pair. Giving out yards to me as I walked along a waterway at the farthest edge of our land.

Dinzee Conlee · 14-05-2019 7:10pm

wrangler wrote: »

Dig out or spray, are you sure grazon will kill them

I sprayed some with grazing last year, and it seemed to do a good job...

But aome people have said to me that it only stunts en and they will be back...

Gallup is the same as roundup isn’t it?

ganmo · 14-05-2019 7:31pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

Birds can be nesting in it now.

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply in relation to—

(a) the destroying, in the ordinary course of agriculture or forestry, of any vegetation growing on or in any hedge or ditch;

(b) the cutting or grubbing of isolated bushes or clumps of gorse, furze or whin or the mowing of isolated growths of fern in the ordinary course of agriculture;

see it doesn't apply

endainoz · 14-05-2019 8:02pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote:

No, theyâ€™re only small, up to your knee kinda size... But - there is a lot of them, have the place covered...

Depending on when it's actually allowed and the size of the area you could cut them back with a decent size strimmer and a brush cutter blade.

wrangler · 14-05-2019 8:04pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I sprayed some with grazing last year, and it seemed to do a good job...

But aome people have said to me that it only stunts en and they will be back...

Gallup is the same as roundup isn’t it?

some information here, it'd be important to use a sticker same as rushes

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDAS/dh_090d/0901b8038090d4a2.pdf?filepath=au/pdfs/noreg/012-10323.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

PoorFarmer · 14-05-2019 9:01pm

My interpretation of this would mean that they are not isolated and the quoted extract of the wildlife act would be void and would be treated as a hedgerow. That's just my interpretation of course.

However if they are as described and only at knee height the chances of nesting birds is slim. Would be nice cover for game birds if you're into shooting though.

Make sure you are willing to deal with any queries you may get if you do go about cutting it

PoorFarmer · 14-05-2019 9:06pm

Walked one of my LIPPs this evening, came across 3 broods of pheasant chicks. About 20 in all I reckon. Will keep the cattle out of the rushy part of it for a week or 10 days to let them develop while they have a bit of cover

Birdnuts · 14-05-2019 9:08pm

ganmo wrote: »

see it doesn't apply

Under the Wildlife Act the nests themselves are protected above and beyond what the law says about hedge maintenance etc.

Base price · 15-05-2019 3:56pm

Bruton wants mandatory planting of trees on every farm as part of CAP.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/bruton-wants-trees-on-every-farm-463992

grassroot1 · 15-05-2019 5:17pm

Base price wrote:

Bruton wants mandatory planting of trees on every farm as part of CAP.

No problem and farmers to be able to lease the carbon credits

endainoz · 15-05-2019 6:08pm

Base price wrote:

Bruton wants mandatory planting of trees on every farm as part of CAP.

Wonder will they consider places that have already established woodland?

ganmo · 15-05-2019 6:36pm

endainoz wrote: »

Wonder will they consider places that have already established woodland?

You've 2 chances

Capercaillie · 15-05-2019 7:12pm

Base price wrote: »

Bruton wants mandatory planting of trees on every farm as part of CAP.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/bruton-wants-trees-on-every-farm-463992

Government incentivises, via eligibility rules for BFP, destruction of C sinks such as scrub/ponds/wetland/excessively wide hedges. Now they will probably force people to plant sh**e like Sitka spruce....

endainoz · 15-05-2019 8:05pm

ganmo wrote:

You've 2 chances

Ha I doubt I'll start getting paid for something established over 100 years ago, but you never know!

endainoz · 15-05-2019 8:06pm

Capercaillie wrote:

Government incentivises, via eligibility rules for BFP, destruction of C sinks such as scrub/ponds/wetland/excessively wide hedges. Now they will probably force people to plant sh**e like Sitka spruce....

Nah it'll have to be native stuff surely. The flawed forrestry system in this country is getting found out...

80sDiesel · 15-05-2019 8:32pm

endainoz wrote: »

Capercaillie wrote:

Government incentivises, via eligibility rules for BFP, destruction of C sinks such as scrub/ponds/wetland/excessively wide hedges. Now they will probably force people to plant sh**e like Sitka spruce....

Nah it'll have to be native stuff surely. The flawed forrestry system in this country is getting found out...

I passed a recent small planting and thought it was all native till I looked closer and saw the spruce in the middle. Looked very well from the road and definite is a step in the right direction.

Water John · 15-05-2019 11:26pm

Well we yet have to establish a defined and agreed way to measure agriculture emissions. If one takes the worst case viewpoint, about 50% of our pasture land would have to be planted.

ganmo · 15-05-2019 11:40pm

Water John wrote: »

Well we yet have to establish a defined and agreed way to measure agriculture emissions. If one takes the worst case viewpoint, about 50% of our pasture land would have to be planted.

Is that above what we currently have planted. If we do end up with that much forestry itll be able to supply all our energy needs

Water John · 15-05-2019 11:47pm

Yes, it's 50% of the present grassland. It's the figure put out there for NZ, can't see Ireland being much different.
We are seeing some simplistic answers being given to the GHG issue. It needs to be an integrated approach. It looks like putting a serious price on carbon is really the most effective option to get progress.

Upstream · 16-05-2019 1:36am

Water John wrote: »

Well we yet have to establish a defined and agreed way to measure agriculture emissions. If one takes the worst case viewpoint, about 50% of our pasture land would have to be planted.

Worst case scenario, listen to the propaganda coming from certain vested interests, decide farmers are at fault for everything and run us out of Dodge

Best case scenario, take carbon sequestration as well as emissions into account and reward us for doing a good job of actually helping the environment.

It could go either way...

yosemitesam1 · 16-05-2019 7:54am

Water John wrote: »

Well we yet have to establish a defined and agreed way to measure agriculture emissions. If one takes the worst case viewpoint, about 50% of our pasture land would have to be planted.

Don't forget that planting commercial forestry is a ponzi scheme for carbon sequestration. Forestry that is planted and never harvested is the only real option from a sequestration POV.

Current push for more forestry is due to our forests will be moving into a source for carbon over the next 20 years

Say my name · 16-05-2019 8:20am

I think from a government point of view it's only growing forestry that is counted from a carbon point of view.
Being that trees store the carbon in the timber. It's the same as any plant a mature plant has nowhere else to put that carbon.

https://www.coillte.ie/our-forests/public-goods/climate-change/

Disappointing that there's no emphasis on grasslands role in any talk. Not sexy to a townie.

yosemitesam1 · 16-05-2019 8:32am

Say my name wrote: »

I think from a government point of view it's only growing forestry that is counted from a carbon point of view.
Being that trees store the carbon in the timber. It's the same as any plant a mature plant has nowhere else to put that carbon.

https://www.coillte.ie/our-forests/public-goods/climate-change/

Disappointing that there's no emphasis on grasslands role in any talk. Not sexy to a townie.

Grassland carbon is a can of worms waiting to be opened. It would be much better if it was looked at properly and intensive grass management took a hit than needing to plant a percentage of land and losing production anyway

Say my name · 16-05-2019 8:50am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Grassland carbon is a can of worms waiting to be opened. It would be much better if it was looked at properly and intensive grass management took a hit than needing to plant a percentage of land and losing production anyway

There is a way i believe to maintain grassland output and reduce emissions.
I keep posting it. The more reports I read. Biochar is that silver bullet. It'll trap ammonium emissions, so save on nitrogen applications, same with phosphorus in soil, so save on phosphorus applications. Then it'll carbon prime the soil to take in even more carbon.
Maybe the powers that be have the same idea but want to get the trees on land first to get the biomass?

I know you keep banging on about mixed species swards. And they are a proven carbon soaker and soil improver. All options should be looked at.

dmakc · 16-05-2019 8:53am

Say the solution is drastic - is it a simple case where we can refuse to comply and forego CAP payments (if they're small for the individual)? Is that the maximum loss?

My view is there's not a chance we'd be required to plant more than 1/2% of good land. If even.

gozunda · 16-05-2019 1:01pm

dmakc wrote: »

Say the solution is drastic - is it a simple case where we can refuse to comply and forego CAP payments (if they're small for the individual)? Is that the maximum loss?

My view is there's not a chance we'd be required to plant more than 1/2% of good land. If even.

I'm not so sure that the whole pro planting of land with forestry is seem as a holy grail over other viable options tbh

This from the European Environmental Agency

Climate change mitigation.

The most carbon-rich soils are peatlands, mostly found in northern Europe, the UK and Ireland. Grassland soils also store a lot of carbon per hectare...

The fastest way to increase organic carbon in farmed soil is to convert arable land to grassland...

On farmland, ploughing the soil is known to accelerate decomposition and mineralisation of organic matter. In order to keep carbon and nutrients in the soil, researchers suggest reducing tillage

https://www.eea.europa.eu/signals/signals-2015/articles/soil-and-climate-change

Say my name · 16-05-2019 9:56pm

https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/17629003.driving-forward-low-carbon-farming/

I think something may happen along those lines in this country.
I know we have BASE Ireland but I'm wondering is it enough?
Is the message getting out to the general public about what's occurring?

Upstream · 17-05-2019 12:42am

Christine Jones is coming to Ireland in November. She's the keynote speaker at Biofarm 2019 in Portlaois. She is doing some great work on improving soil biology and farm profitability through compost and multi-species cover crops.

More details should appear on nots.ie shortly

Who is Dr Christine Jones?

Dr Christine Jones is an Australian soil scientist whose research on how carbon is stored in the soil, gives a new understanding of this process. It is probably the most significant discovery since the Haber-Bosch process introduced artificial Nitrogen on a large scale to agriculture.

She showed that humus is predominantly not formed in the way previously imagined – through the continuous breakdown of organic matter over a very long period.
Most humus is actually formed from liquid carbon or sugar exudates released by the roots of plants which feed its symbiotic partners, namely the many nitrogen-fixing bacteria, mycorrhizal fungi and actinomycetes. These then combine to store this carbon in times of surplus by combining it with nitrogen, phosphorous, sulphur and trace amounts of lots of other minerals – much in the same way as bees turn nectar into honey.

But here is the catch (for conventional farmers) - soluble nitrogen and phosphorous stifle this process by breaking the symbiotic link between plant roots and the soil biology, hence preventing any long-term storage of carbon in the form of humus.

Farmers who are embracing this understanding are building soil carbon at 0.4% and well above it, and are witnessing their farms’ productivity, resilience and health rise with it.

Say my name · 17-05-2019 12:54am

Upstream wrote: »

Christine Jones is coming to Ireland in November. She's the keynote speaker at Biofarm 2019 in Portlaois. She is doing some great work on improving soil biology and farm profitability through compost and multi-species cover crops.

More details should appear on nots.ie shortly

Who is Dr Christine Jones?

Dr Christine Jones is an Australian soil scientist whose research on how carbon is stored in the soil, gives a new understanding of this process. It is probably the most significant discovery since the Haber-Bosch process introduced artificial Nitrogen on a large scale to agriculture.

She showed that humus is predominantly not formed in the way previously imagined – through the continuous breakdown of organic matter over a very long period.
Most humus is actually formed from liquid carbon or sugar exudates released by the roots of plants which feed its symbiotic partners, namely the many nitrogen-fixing bacteria, mycorrhizal fungi and actinomycetes. These then combine to store this carbon in times of surplus by combining it with nitrogen, phosphorous, sulphur and trace amounts of lots of other minerals – much in the same way as bees turn nectar into honey.

But here is the catch (for conventional farmers) - soluble nitrogen and phosphorous stifle this process by breaking the symbiotic link between plant roots and the soil biology, hence preventing any long-term storage of carbon in the form of humus.

Farmers who are embracing this understanding are building soil carbon at 0.4% and well above it, and are witnessing their farms’ productivity, resilience and health rise with it.

It's a pity they couldn't get Doug Pow over as well on the same flight.

Dickie10 · 17-05-2019 9:30am

make a big push for wool to be used for a myriad of uses, insulation, clothing etc. its renewable and can have the impact of using both meat and wool from the same animal surely there is nothing more enviromentally efficent than sheep. they can produce 40-44kg of one of the tastiest protein sources around and produce a couple of kgs of wool every year totally off grass if neccessary.

Lime Tree Farm · 17-05-2019 10:52am

Dickie10 wrote: »

make a big push for wool to be used for a myriad of uses, insulation, clothing etc.

Lanolin.

Including barrier cream and in the cosmetic industry.

https://oureverydaylife.com/109584-lanolin-uses.html

Say my name · 17-05-2019 7:48pm

A new documentary coming out with practical solutions to help the environment. Narrated by Leonardo Di Caprio.
A few farmers get a look in too.

If you have HBO it might be worth a gawk.

https://www.vitalthrills.com/2019/05/16/ice-on-fire-dicaprio-coming-hbo-june/

Good to see the importance of soil sequestration being taken seriously by the upper echelons.

Water John · 18-05-2019 10:13am

This is an interesting article, Jerry Murphy UCC refers to an organic dairy farm that is carbon neutral.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eating-less-beef-will-reduce-carbon-footprint-environmental-expert-925133.html

Really need to move in this direction in farming not seeking further derogation on nitrogen.

Say my name · 18-05-2019 11:01am

Water John wrote: »

This is an interesting article, Jerry Murphy UCC refers to an organic dairy farm that is carbon neutral.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eating-less-beef-will-reduce-carbon-footprint-environmental-expert-925133.html

Really need to move in this direction in farming not seeking further derogation on nitrogen.

I think you'll find the feedstuffs in Ireland are digested too.

Water John · 18-05-2019 11:12am

I wasn't supporting the article, it has plenty of holes. The best the Minister for the Environment could offer was to ask the GAA to deliver the message, WTF?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gaa-can-offer-key-to-climate-change-goal-minister-believes-lnjcvhmnh

Sorry it's behind a paywall, but you get the gist.

Gawddawggonnit · 18-05-2019 12:16pm

Water John wrote: »

This is an interesting article, Jerry Murphy UCC refers to an organic dairy farm that is carbon neutral.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eating-less-beef-will-reduce-carbon-footprint-environmental-expert-925133.html

Really need to move in this direction in farming not seeking further derogation on nitrogen.

Finally someone points at the elephant in the room without being proscribed...

Say my name · 18-05-2019 12:53pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Finally someone points at the elephant in the room without being proscripted...

It's not a very good article though and as said by John full of holes.
You'd know from it, it was written by someone with zero experience of farming.

The professor equates his work of being ordered by the EU to treat municipal raw sewage going into waterways with cows dunging themselves on pasture and tries to justify it by saying an indoor organic farm with waste run through an anaerobic digestor is the future.

Gawddawggonnit · 18-05-2019 1:03pm

Hence the use of the word ‘proscription’.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 18-05-2019 3:11pm

Some of you on Twitter might be interested in following the SMARTSWARD programme of research over the next few years.
https://twitter.com/ucdlyonsfarm/status/1129473851425992704?s=19

Say my name · 18-05-2019 3:23pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Some of you on Twitter might be interested in following the SMARTSWARD programme of research over the next few years.
https://twitter.com/ucdlyonsfarm/status/1129473851425992704?s=19

Why didn't they just take samples from other landowners land that meet those criteria?
Send four students out in each direction to take samples from said land and BOOM, result in two hours.

(I'm a little bit cranky today.)

Just seems to be a waste of time and energy and looking for credits/finance for a new research project.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 18-05-2019 3:33pm

Say my name wrote: »

Why didn't they just take samples from other landowners land that meet those criteria?
Send four students out in each direction to take samples from said land and BOOM, result in two hours.

(I'm a little bit cranky today.)

Just seems to be a waste of time and energy and looking for credits/finance for a new research project.

I imagine they will have to establish a baseline control plot and measure the differences, if any, that the different treatments have as compared with the control plot?

If they're going to publish the results in any scientific journal, that would be a bare minimum starting point anyway.

Say my name · 18-05-2019 3:49pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I imagine they will have to establish a baseline control plot and measure the differences, if any, that the different treatments have as compared with the control plot?

If they're going to publish the results in any scientific journal, that would be a bare minimum starting point anyway.

It just seems to be a waste of time especially when there's figures coming from other area's and farmers that meet the criteria.
They'll be waiting twenty years for any results worth a damn from the forestry side.
It's kind of like how a county council worker would go about things.

yosemitesam1 · 19-05-2019 9:18pm

Say my name wrote: »

It just seems to be a waste of time especially when there's figures coming from other area's and farmers that meet the criteria.
They'll be waiting twenty years for any results worth a damn from the forestry side.
It's kind of like how a county council worker would go about things.

+1

A minimum of six years for any differences between grass plots to START to show differences, 15-20 before worthwhile differences.
That's assuming they sample to 1m which they mightn't do. 30cm is more common.

They're only replicating work already done in Germany and USA. There's also already a big enough body of evidence to point us in the right direction, they just need to be creative with their management to figure out how to give the majority of farmers a soft landing from the current system

Changes to benefit the environment...

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