Future and potential Star Wars films - news and speculation

Drumpot · 17-05-2019 2:54pm

tigger123 wrote: »

I read yesterday that this season of GOT had 30 odd million viewers per episode (not including illegal streams). So the 500k signatures on a childish petition is really of no significance.

With the interwebs, Twitter etc this kind of toxic fandom can find an audience of like minded individuals in a way that it couldn't do before. As a result, these vocal minorities are over represented, retweeted, discussed and written about.

The biggest whingers are usually the most vocal and loudest voices in all walks of life which convinces them that they represent the majority. Quite often the opposite is the reality and those who are content or enjoyed or like what they get just aren’t arsed getting into it.

I hate the part of myself that engages with these people as they are very often not interested in discussion/debate or even addressing any points that challenges their interpretation of a show/movie.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 3:22pm

My problem is that people are far too quick to scream 'toxic fandom' and pointing to extreme examples of OTT reactions to seemingly paint away all criticism of given media.

Obviously I don't agree that Rian Johnson should be subjected to any kind of abuse. I do think there's plenty of reasonable, logical criticism of TLJ out there.

I don't think that S8 of GOT is 'terrible' but I do think it's deeply, deeply flawed like GOT never was before and rational criticism is entirely reasonable....and there's plenty of it.

This whole "people complain about everything these days" in response to valid, well documented and widespread criticism is an incredibly weak response.

Now, the thing is, I think Benioff and Weiss just desperately wanted to move onto new projects and sloppily rushed through GOT and kinda messed it up at the final hurdle.

However, they're perfectly capable writers when they chose to be (Benioff is a good author and both penned a perfectly decent S6 of GOT) so I'm not all that worried about Star Wars and wouldn't support having them removed from any project.

Stop moaning ffs · 17-05-2019 3:34pm

Johnson Benioff and weiss have the huge advantage of their new films being free of the ties to established canon.
B&W asked for a specific period and it’s thousand(s) of years before apaprently?
I hope they truly are interconnecting theirs with Johnson’s. Sets up a whole new era and canon free of all the ties. One of the podcasts have an insider that told them Johnson’s trilogy will be announced this year probably at that Disney conference D23. There are quite a few unnamed films that had dates on that Disney schedule that they released few weeks back.
More excited for B&W’s. 8 series of incredible TV and people losing their minds about this last season. It’s gas

Theboinkmaster · 17-05-2019 3:51pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Oh FFS :rolleyes:

I've yet to hear a cogent set of arguments on why 'Game of Thrones' is so "bad" now. I haven't seen 8 yet, so it may be absolute shite. But this nerdy bollocks talk has been floating around for a while and it only stems from a binary RRM involved=good and RRM not involved=bad.

It's nonsense and GoT remains one of the finest examples of modern TV that's available. It's been consistently good since it started, slight flaws and all.

I completely disagree with this "nerdy bollocks" statement as season 8 has been ****e - just look at the IMDB ratings falloff for this season.

The writing has been terrible and it's obvious the creators have just rushed the conclusion of the show to move onto Star Wars. The pacing has accelerated 800% much to the detriment of the show.

The writing is terrible and characters are doing things that make no sense, just to get it over with. Doing things completely out of character and plenty of WTF moments.

You need to watch season 8 before you comment really.

They spend 7 seasons slowly building up a story and characters that they've now just completely shat on.

GoT remains one of the finest examples of modern TV - yes agreed, but they definitely lost their way when they diverged from the books and season 8 in particular has been a complete and utter **** show.

I can understand such a petition, haven't seen such a dramatic drop in quality on TV ever.

Drumpot · 17-05-2019 3:52pm

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

My problem is that people are far too quick to scream 'toxic fandom' and pointing to extreme examples of OTT reactions to seemingly paint away all criticism of given media.

Obviously I don't agree that Rian Johnson should be subjected to any kind of abuse. I do think there's plenty of reasonable, logical criticism of TLJ out there.

I don't think that S8 of GOT is 'terrible' but I do think it's deeply, deeply flawed like GOT never was before and rational criticism is entirely reasonable....and there's plenty of it.

This whole "people complain about everything these days" in response to valid, well documented and widespread criticism is an incredibly weak response. .

For me it’s more a case of how people complain is pretty much standard across the board. You don’t like something you say it. No problem With that. But then sh*t is made up to try and somehow validate this opinion. And I have said it before, people seem to have a disconnect between what is actually reasonably possible for a character to do versus what/how they want their interpretation of a character to play out.

Not my luke, not my Dany is the obvious one. People using characters previous actions or motives as an example of how they wouldn’t change dramatically in a short or longer period of time. In both cases that’s an inaccurate representation of what can happen to people in extremely stressful circumstances or after traumatic events. These things can very rationally be explained and happen to these characters given the events that led them to change.

But the argument isn’t about real life , it reverts back to how the movie or show was originally portraying these characters or their development. It effectively boils down to “I didn’t like what they did with the character” which is not , objectively speaking, about the writing moreso the story arc chosen.

In the case of GOT they had to get characters from A-B quickly for reasons that are clear. Those who refuse to accept this was the option chosen keep harping on about how things are rushed which is fine but we all knew this season was going to have its limitations it needed a finish. As such you have to accept the limitations on the writers and factor this in when appraising what we got.

I don’t see much progressive chatter about SW or GOT, in many regards it’s
Like football forums that’s all about sides backing each other up and people digging in on their views. I am aware I can be just as stubborn but generally I can learn if somebody makes a rational point that adds up when scrutinized. The Not my Luke/Dany arguments don’t add up when scrutinized logically when asking if people can take the paths they chose. Whether mythical or not, their characters changes were 100% plausible. It was simply that people didn’t like the choices made which boils down to the fact that you just you can’t please everybody.

Theboinkmaster · 17-05-2019 4:03pm

Drumpot wrote: »

In the case of GOT they had to get characters from A-B quickly for reasons that are clear. Those who refuse to accept this was the option chosen keep harping on about how things are rushed which is fine but we all knew this season was going to have its limitations it needed a finish. As such you have to accept the limitations on the writers and factor this in when appraising what we got.
.

The problem with GoT was the limitations on the writers were self imposed - HBO wanted to give B&W the budget for extra season or 10 episodes and they selfishly squeezed it all into 6 episodes so they could move onto Star Wars.

They've seriously tainted what they had achieved and I don't think history will be kind to them.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 4:04pm

I get entirely where you're coming from in some respects, but it's unfair to boil down criticism to very simple broadstrokes.

In the case of The Last Jedi, for example, I had serious issues with that movie - so serious that I had to go watch it a second time in the cinema before coming around to the fact that there's a lot of great stuff in there. I feel the same about GOT; if we take E05, there's genuinely a lot to like in there but I had to re-watch it the next day to allow myself appreciate it as initially I was so dismayed and disappointed by what I perceived to be bad (and still do, but it drowns out the good far less when you allow yourself to see the positive).

I never had much of a problem with the Luke arc in TLJ either; it wasn't perfect to me admittedly, but sometimes you just have to accept a creative vision as it's presented to you, whether or not you agree with it. No matter what the medium or what your expectations were. That's how I felt with Luke. Not where I'd have gone but it's where Rian Johnson went and I respect that.

However, it's markedly different when gripes are with say, dialogue and scripting rather than any over-arching narrative. Again for example, if someone says Johnson whacking Snoke in TLJ is the reason it's crap, that's not an entirely reasonable or well argued POV to me. However if they say their gripe is with scripting, character behaviors, inconsistency, or whatever, I find that reasonable and perfectly logical, whether I do or don't agree.

I have to say the vast majority of the criticism - or praise, to be equally fair - I read about things like TLJ or GOT is pretty valid (putting Twitter aside). There'll always be a minority on either side articulating completely OTT and irrationally aggressive opinions, and sometimes it's hard to ignore them, but it's incredibly dismaying when all valid opinion, good or bad, gets thrown out the window because of it.

johnny_ultimate · 17-05-2019 5:20pm

Cryptopagan wrote: »

That’s a bit extreme; there are plenty of examples of positive fandom online.

That's absolutely true: there are for sure plenty of properly enthusiastic, reasonable fans out there waving their flags with pride. So perhaps my use of 'largely' was a bit hyperbolic, but definitely feel there's 'a lot' of bad vibes and endless hostility in many of the high-profile online fan communities these days, even if it's just a minority shouting loudly. Kinda sucks the fun out of discussing a lot of these big hyper-franchise films.

I do stand by my belief that the filmmakers put in charge of these things should ideally pave their own path and tell the stories they want to tell, in the way they want to. As fan fiction as so consistently proven, most 'alternative versions' put forward online are pedestrian at best... and I won't go into the worst as this is a family website

. Add to this the usual distortions about how many films are talked about these days - whether that's the insufferable 'Cinema Sins' style nitpicking or the weaponisation of identity politics by ideologues - and a lot of the complaints about what constitute 'bad storytelling' or 'a bad film' make me want to tear my hair out :P

There are for sure cases where constructive feedback can be taken on board to positive effect, and things tweaked accordingly. But storytelling shouldn't be crowd-sourced, as IMO that's a shortcut to blandness. And the ownership a few people feel over these corporate behemoths can get fairly ridiculous - we've all seen perfectly reasonably critics come under fire for daring to speak mild ill about some blockbuster or another.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd always take something divisive but ambitious like The Last Jedi - which for me was a thrilling case study in letting a talented filmmaker exert their own vision over a tightly-controlled series - over the sort of vanilla, fan servicey likes of the Avengers films. Ultimately, we all have our own tastes and preferences, so I'm just speaking for myself - but as ever I think we'd all be better off if more online film discussion wasn't so drowned in negativity. That's not to say there should be no criticism, quite the opposite. It's more just an earnest wish for less of the nasty trench warfare over the mega-franchises!

Stop moaning ffs · 17-05-2019 5:30pm

Found it interesting that Endgame was test screened 6 different times and audience commentary (all Disney employees) were taken in board to tweak and sharpen the end result. They don’t test Star Wars with anyone.
Definitely agree that taking direction from public in any sense is a terrible idea. No filmmaker or creative worth their salt ever should.
But even then you simply cannot please everyone and the rampant complaint culture can make it hard to get to the valid interesting criticisms. They’re drowned out.

pixelburp · 17-05-2019 5:42pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

That's absolutely true: there are for sure plenty of properly enthusiastic, reasonable fans out there waving their flags with pride. So perhaps my use of 'largely' was a bit hyperbolic, but definitely feel there's 'a lot' of bad vibes and endless hostility in many of the high-profile fan communities these days. Kinda sucks the fun out of discussing a lot of these big hyper-franchise films.

The simple reason why the poisonous aspects of fandom are more visible is because "'de media" insists on reporting it for the sake of clickbait and manufactured controversy. Newspapers never went out of business printing "dog bites man", so it is that online publications have latched onto negativity in an otherwise positive, inclusive space. Just flick over to the Batman thread, where linked is one website desperately trying to create outrage by dint of (near) non-existent petitions against Robert Pattinson becoming the next Batman - presumably jumping on the back of the Game of Thrones equivalent (and that franchise is a different beast altogether, transcending geekery into a cult like obsession among "the normal")

Most Star Wars (or Trek, Dr. Who, uh, Babylon 5?) fans are enthusiastic, welcoming people; just go looking for cosplay for instance at the - now hundreds of - geek conventions across the globe and you'll see passionate, smiling people of all ages & genders expressing their love of the franchise.

The minority 'black stormtroopers', 'Mary Sue' bell-ends not only fills blogs, they also act as a convenient rollback to that cliché of the 'geek' being this angry, likely male loner raging against the world. Pop culture is normal now, it's OK to love SciFi openly but a smiling family dressed up like the Skywalkers doesn't conform to that lingering cliché - so the worst aspects are trotted out for us to gawp at.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I do stand by my belief that the filmmakers put in charge of these things should ideally pave their own path and tell the stories they want to tell, in the way they want to. As fan fiction as so consistently proven, most 'alternative versions' put forward online are pedestrian at best... and I won't go into the worst as this is a family website . Add to this the usual distortions about how many films are talked about these days: whether that's the insufferable 'Cinema Sins' style nitpicking or the weaponisation of identity politics by ideologues, and a lot of the complaints about what constitute 'bad storytelling' or 'a bad film' make me want to tear my hair out :P

I take it you don't subscribe to the whole "Death of the Author" mentality, that at some point the 'author' no longer has cultural or emotional ownership of a property?

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd always take something divisive but ambitious like The Last Jedi - which for me was a thrilling case study in letting a talented filmmaker exert their own vision over a tightly-controlled series - over the sort of vanilla, fan servicey likes of the Avengers films.

Naw, I'm there with you, waving the Last Jedi flag in the face of others - I watched it again recently and it holds up for me. Brave, flawed and kinda insane that such a film could be made.

johnny_ultimate · 17-05-2019 5:55pm

pixelburp wrote: »

The simple reason why the poisonous aspects of fandom are more visible is because "'de media" insists on reporting it for the sake of clickbait and manufactured controversy.

I think you're right to some degree - there's a lot of bad sites out there desperate for the clicks negativity brings. But it's beyond just 'the media' - we've probably all experienced the situation of clicking on some harmless video or other about The Last Jedi on YouTube and the site enthusiastically recommending some awful toxic ****e immediately afterwards. Add to that the vocal minority shouting on social media and it can be numbing at times.

If there's a sense the many positive aspects of fandom are drowned out, perhaps it's because a lot of that is done in dedicated spaces. I'm unlikely to end up at a comic or sci-fi convention or Dr Who subreddit, so perhaps don't get exposed to the really good vibes. In the general mush that is the Internet, I guess it's a bit easier to only see the unpleasant stuff!

But credit where credit is due: from the noise does emerge good. Some of the analyses I've read of Game of Thrones recently have been really thoughtful, probing reflections on long-form storytelling in the context of this particular show.

Sad Professor · 17-05-2019 6:01pm

There are nearly always legitimate flaws that can be found to support an argument that something is bad. However I would question whether those flaws are the real source of the outrage over some of these popular films/shows. In the case of TLJ and GOT I would say no. And that the real issue for most detractors is "this didn't match my head canon" and/or "this isn't what I wanted to happen for moral/political reasons". These can be legitimate subjective reasons for not liking something but that's not going to help you win an internet argument so naturally enough people prefer to point to objective flaws even if these flaws are fairly minor in the larger scheme of things.

Anyway I was never a huge GOT fan. A bit too stagey and soap opera-ish for my liking. But I still think B&W probably did as good as job with it as possible given the limitations of a tv show and the problems with the source material. As I see it GRRM lost the main narrative thread of the story in book 3, digging himself a hole that he has spent 18 years trying to get out of. B&W were never going to be able to fix that in the time that they had, but they finished the story which is more than I suspect Martin will ever do. I don't buy the claim that they rushed the final seasons because they wanted to go do SW. If anything I think what should have been the final season was split in half and dragged out over 3 years in typical HBO fashion. The show ran too long IMO. Should have been 5 seasons. And 5 books for that matter.

I'm not sure how they'll get on with SW and I'd question the wisdom of hiring two guys best known for adapting someone's else story/characters to create original story/characters.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 6:30pm

And that the real issue for most detractors is "this didn't match my head canon" and/or "this isn't what I wanted to happen for moral/political reasons".

I would agree firstly that that is precisely the nature of a huge amount of the criticism over TLJ.

Not all of it granted; most of my own faults with the movie isn't linked to the core narrative, just some of the scripting behind it as well as some small creative choices.

But fundementally there are tonnes of perfectly valid criticisms of TLJ, many of which I've read here on boards in great detail - some I agreed with, others I didn't, but putting aside the OTT aggressive posts that swing either way, I respect a well argued opinion/interpretation.

GOT is different. The vast majority of people are OK with the plot, and where the plot is heading has been, broadly speaking, telegraphed since S1, so there's really no significant contingent of people unhappy with the plot....it's just how the writers are arriving at these points, and there's a lot of debate as to whether these pivotal moments are being earned or not.

The issue that's consistently being raised since E03 of S8 - whether you agree or not - is the lack of quality in the writing, and naturally this is going to be a talking point in a show known for his complexity, rich dialogue and attention to detail.

It's not limited to some sidelined, hardcore e-based fans either, the majority of critical reviews for E04 and E05 in particular are poor to lukewarm and echo a lot of the mainstream, reasoned criticism.

The problem for me is that in many places these days, huge swathes of entirely valid criticism is being dismissed as "angry entitled fans who aren't happy that they didn't get the vision they wanted" or "nitpickers desperate to find fault", "toxic fans", "complaining snowflake culture" among other phrases which seem to want to shut down all criticism.

It's impossible to lump criticism of both into the same bracket, as the fundemental reason people are unhappy with both are largely very distinct and seperate issues.

I'm not sure how they'll get on with SW and I'd question the wisdom of hiring two guys best known for adapting someone's else story/characters to create original story/characters.

S5 and S6 of GOT are largely their own hand and they're very decent. Not as remotely as complex as seasons 1 through 4 admittedly, but being realistic Star Wars has never been an overly multi-layered production.

S7 was a little rushed though fundementally sound.

Wiess hasn't done much else but Benioff has also written an award-winning novel which by all accounts is rather excellent and I've heard other writers specifically mention it as a must-read.

I'm not sure what went on with GOT this last season, but being perfectly objective about it, I think they're well capable of crafting a very good original Star Wars tale entirely free from the shackles of Ep1-9.

Sad Professor · 17-05-2019 7:40pm

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

GOT is different. The vast majority of people are OK with the plot, and where the plot is heading has been, broadly speaking, telegraphed since S1, so there's really no significant contingent of people unhappy with the plot....it's just how the writers are arriving at these points, and there's a lot of debate as to whether these pivotal moments are being earned or not.

The issue that's consistently being raised since E03 of S8 - whether you agree or not - is the lack of quality in the writing, and naturally this is going to be a talking point in a show known for his complexity, rich dialogue and attention to detail.

It's not limited to some sidelined, hardcore e-based fans either, the majority of critical reviews for E04 and E05 in particular are poor to lukewarm and echo a lot of the mainstream, reasoned criticism.

The problem for me is that in many places these days, huge swathes of entirely valid criticism is being dismissed as "angry entitled fans who aren't happy that they didn't get the vision they wanted" or "nitpickers desperate to find fault", "toxic fans", "complaining snowflake culture" among other phrases which seem to want to shut down all criticism.

It's impossible to lump criticism of both into the same bracket, as the fundemental reason people are unhappy with both are largely very distinct and seperate issues.

I disagree. A great deal of the GOT outrage I am seeing online is very similar to the TLJ outrage, i.e. head canon or moral/political in nature. As with TLJ, most of them have quickly shifted to focusing on plot related issues and other things they can argue are objective faults but which in my view do not justify the outrage even if they are legitimate criticisms.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 7:59pm

Well, first of all we do have distinguish between actual genuine reasoned criticism and outrage, the latter tending to be somewhat insufferable.

The vast majority of what I've observed is criticism, and the vast majority of that centers on the quality of writing and a perceived significant drop in quality.

Critic reviews echo those sentiments, too, so to dismiss it as all toxic noise or groundless outrage is not very fair at all, unless you believe that they've also got some alterior motive in expressing discontent to a level not seen with any previous season.

That's not an argument to try and say that it's terrible, bad, poor or even mediocre, more just an acknowledgment that there are issues there that deserve recognition as valid issues at the very least.

I would entirely say the negative backlash against The Last Jedi in comparison contained far more outrage as opposed to reasoned criticis.

Critics too saw it for what it is - a solid and occasionally uncharacteristically bold entry into the franchise.

Equally that's not to say there wasn't plenty of valid and understandable criticism, but a large amount of it was pure backlash based on creative choices more than anything else.

Again, I just don't think it's fair to broadly throw critics of both into the same sin bin.

Cryptopagan · 17-05-2019 9:11pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd always take something divisive but ambitious like The Last Jedi - which for me was a thrilling case study in letting a talented filmmaker exert their own vision over a tightly-controlled series - over the sort of vanilla, fan servicey likes of the Avengers films.

Yeah but Last Jedi was good though :P I actually do think in 10 or 20 years people will look back on it and wonder why there was any controversy.

Relikk · 17-05-2019 9:38pm

Cryptopagan wrote: »

I actually do think in 10 or 20 years people will look back on it and wonder why there was any controversy.

Never. Awful movie, story-wise.

Tony EH · 17-05-2019 10:08pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That toxicity has appeared in everything I’m a fan of. And It’s the same thing all the time. Anti women, sjw, cuck, etc etc. Always the same script and attack.
I wonder who these people are. And where. I do believe a lot of it is manufactured and coming from Russia. Demonstrably so in a lot of ways in the the case of Star Wars.
You get someone like Rian Johnson who gets bombarded with abuse every single time he tweets or posts on his Instagram. Daisey Ridly being chased off social media with vitriolic abuse. Or the ongoing never ending complaining about that scene in Endgame.
Then you look at beniof and weiss and see that they have zero social media presence at all. So I don’t think or buy into the idea that any writing was adjusted to address complaints. In either Star Wars or GOT. Not will it be listened to in future films or series. Why would they listen when fair criticism is completely dwarfed by the deafeningly vocal minority on things like twitter.
The likes of the frankly disgusting comicsgate crowd.
I want to believe it’s Russian trolls because if Complaining and hating everything has become a norm and the new zeitgeist, that’s such a depressing thought.

And it will turn off any creatives new or established, wanting to take part in any of the franchises etc we love. Why put up with all that backlash and abuse?
It wouldn’t be worth it.

I hope it is a phase and I hope it passes soon.

It's not Russia.

It's America.

Tony EH · 17-05-2019 10:13pm

Drumpot wrote: »

The biggest whingers are usually the most vocal and loudest voices in all walks of life which convinces them that they represent the majority. Quite often the opposite is the reality and those who are content or enjoyed or like what they get just aren’t arsed getting into it.

I hate the part of myself that engages with these people as they are very often not interested in discussion/debate or even addressing any points that challenges their interpretation of a show/movie.

The problem is not the "whingers", who are usually quite a small portion of the commentary. The problem is the people that hit the button on the clickbait gibberish looking to be offended or outraged.

Those clicks create a revenue stream and, subsequently, more clickbait articles and videos.

And the cycle begins again.

It also has the unfortunate knock on effect of drowning out legitimate criticism of a given item.

Tony EH · 17-05-2019 10:15pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I completely disagree with this "nerdy bollocks" statement as season 8 has been ****e - just look at the IMDB ratings falloff for this season.

It's been going on BEFORE S08 and can be traced roughly back to when the show passed out George R.R. Martin's books.

Tony EH · 17-05-2019 10:17pm

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

My problem is that people are far too quick to scream 'toxic fandom'

Which, in itself, is a silly sound bite and not in any way constructive.

Drumpot · 17-05-2019 11:44pm

Tony EH wrote: »

The problem is not the "whingers", who are usually quite a small portion of the commentary. The problem is the people that hit the button on the clickbait gibberish looking to be offended or outraged.

Those clicks create a revenue stream and, subsequently, more clickbait articles and videos.

And the cycle begins again.

It also has the unfortunate knock on effect of drowning out legitimate criticism of a given item.

This is the only place I discuss most things online (sad I know!) so I can’t speak much for the clickbait stuff or twitter or most other mediums.

I shouldn’t of said whingers, it’s the same subjective criticism I accuse others of portraying as objective analysis, I guess I’m as fallible as everybody else.:o

Inviere · 19-05-2019 10:49am

Relikk wrote: »

Never. Awful movie, story-wise.

I adored it when I first seen it on release, and watched it again there for the first time since, and it blew me away once again. It's mad how divisive it is, for me, it's one of the best movies in the whole franchise.

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 12:04pm

Just heard on a podcast that one of the head Lucas film people told a crowd at celebration that they are already working on the second season of Mandalorian.

Leads me to wonder. When is this streaming service coming here? Or is it at all?
It launches in the autumn in America and First season starts in November there.

This is probably going to be heavily bootlegged on torrents sites if they can’t sort it out. I can’t find any info of this service coming here at all?

Foxtrol · 19-05-2019 3:48pm

My problem with a lot of the complaints/outrage is that it tends to be completely devoid of being able to assess previous iterations with the ones that they now have issues with. There's a huge difference between not liking something now and claiming that it is a completely new thing to the franchise, when that's objectively not the case.

Taking TLJ for example, I've rarely enjoyed the comedy in the SW franchise, finding it extremely clunky and forced, so I was shocked when people started claiming that that sort comedy was something new to TLJ. Similarly in GoT, claims about character actions and plot devices where posters refuse to accept, that there are examples previously of similar.

There's world of difference between discussing not liking something and the reasons why (e.g. feeling rushed) and an alternative fact world where justifications are blinkered to it being present in previous iterations.

This is where D&D and Disney are in a terrible place at this point. It is clear a toxic element of the SW fanbase now have it out for Rian and it'll likely be similar for D&D with GoT fans and won't like be given the honeymoon period where certain things are overlooked.

Relikk · 19-05-2019 4:12pm

Inviere wrote: »

I adored it when I first seen it on release, and watched it again there for the first time since, and it blew me away once again. It's mad how divisive it is, for me, it's one of the best movies in the whole franchise.

I know that I can dislike a movie on first viewing, but I can also know that there's something in there that I can find some kind of interest in to come back to upon repeated viewings. The Big Lebowski being a prime example. I really didn't get it when I saw it at first, but I knew there was something about it that I missed. When I watched it again it clicked with me, but The Last Jedi will never be one of those movies. For me, it's right down with Attack of the Clones as the worst in the entire series, and I genuinely wince when I see people like you and johnny_ultimate say that they adore it, because the story has so many glaringly obvious faults that I find it dumbfounding that anyone with a sound, logical and critical mind could enjoy it, let alone have adoration for it.

buser2x · 19-05-2019 4:29pm

even with the new movie still to be released , i'm sure Disney has something else brewing

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 4:31pm

Relikk wrote: »

I know that I can dislike a movie on first viewing, but I can also know that there's something in there that I can find some kind of interest in to come back to upon repeated viewings. The Big Lebowski being a prime example. I really didn't get it when I saw it at first, but I knew there was something about it that I missed. When I watched it again it clicked with me, but The Last Jedi will never be one of those movies. For me, it's right down with Attack of the Clones as the worst in the entire series, and I genuinely wince when I see people like you and johnny_ultimate say that they adore it, because the story has so many glaringly obvious faults that I find it dumbfounding that anyone with a sound, logical and critical mind could enjoy it, let alone have adoration for it.

It’s dumbfounding that someone enjoys something you don’t?
I can watch a West wing or deadwood all day and have mates that just don’t like it. I’m not wincing for their obvious loss of something I know is quality and that their missing out on. No skin off anyone’s nose. Same goes for Last Jedi. I don’t love all of it. It has problems. But when it’s fantstic it really is fantastic. I wouldn’t be letting anyone else’s enjoyment or lack of it bother me at all.

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 4:34pm

buser2x wrote: »

even with the new movie still to be released , i'm sure Disney has something else brewing

Rumour is they’re announcing Johnson’s trilogy at the Disney conference next month.
Update or alternative to that rumour is, it’s being readied for release if them Avatar films tank. Which they well could.
Who knows but Johnson is definitely working away writing his ones

Relikk · 19-05-2019 4:36pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It’s dumbfounding that someone enjoys something you don’t?

They can enjoy whatever they like.

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 4:40pm

Relikk wrote: »

They can enjoy whatever they like.

Exactly. Don’t let it bother you. Wincing gives you wrinkles

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 4:42pm

Relikk wrote: »

They can enjoy whatever they like.

Exactly. Don’t let it bother you. Wincing gives you wrinkles

johnny_ultimate · 19-05-2019 5:04pm

As an aside, it’s the 20th anniversary of Episode 1 today

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1130125971179343872?s=21

I think everything that can possibly be said about that film has been said. But as a kid there’d never been anything like the excitement of the build up to this - and was mesmerised by Darth Maul and the pod racing on that first viewing. Obviously its plethora of issues came into sharp focus as I got older, and I don’t need to go into any of that. But sitting in the cinema 20 years ago and that fanfare booting up was something I still fondly remember.

I’m really glad TLJ has reawakened that old childlike enthusiasm for SW for me (and thankfully held up to scrutiny), and hope others can say the same about one or more of the new batch of films. And definitely hope there’s some kids out there who, if nothing else, got a kick out of seeing the opening crawl on the big screen before a new adventure kicked off.

PS someone still needs to use Duel of the Fates in a better Star Wars film than TPM

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 5:10pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

As an aside, it’s the 20th anniversary of Episode 1 today

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1130125971179343872?s=21

I think everything that can possibly be said about that film has been said. But as a kid there’d never been anything like the excitement of the build up to this - and was mesmerised by Darth Maul and the pod racing on that first viewing. Obviously its plethora of issues came into sharp focus as I got older, and I don’t need to go into any of that. But sitting in the cinema 20 years ago and that fanfare booting up was something I still fondly remember.

I’m really glad TLJ has reawakened that old childlike enthusiasm for SW for me (and thankfully held up to scrutiny), and hope others can say the same about one or more of the new batch of films. And definitely hope there’s some kids out there who, if nothing else, got a kick out of seeing the opening crawl on the big screen before a new adventure kicked off.

PS someone still needs to use Duel of the Fates in a better Star Wars film than TPM

You could say one more thing. That poster is analogous of the entire prequels.
A brilliant idea. Executed poorly

Not to totally rag on them though. There’s flashes of the magic in each of them.

emo72 · 19-05-2019 5:46pm

cant believe its 20 years! i remember sitting in the cinema as the star wars theme blasted out and thinking im seeing something i thought i would never see. i remember ROTJ in harolds cross cinema. and the thought that they would do another trilogy was dead in the water.

Inviere · 19-05-2019 6:28pm

Relikk wrote: »

For me, it's right down with Attack of the Clones as the worst in the entire series, and I genuinely wince when I see people like you and johnny_ultimate say that they adore it, because the story has so many glaringly obvious faults that I find it dumbfounding that anyone with a sound, logical and critical mind could enjoy it, let alone have adoration for it.

It's mad because for me, AotC is probably the worst of the bunch (total cack) and I'd not put TLJ in the same sentence as it (thus me not being a rabid SW fan that'd enjoy anything & everything SW related). I loved the story of TLJ, it felt new, fresh, and broke away from the pseudo-reboot which was TFA (ANH in a new skin). Yes, it juxtaposed with TFA in terms of overarching plot, but for me, that was for the better. Anyway, it's all been said, and nobody wants to read it all again - I just find it crazy how divisive the film is among fans

pixelburp · 19-05-2019 6:40pm

Grew up with Star Wars being a VHS medium, or the occasional presence on Christmas TV (back before sky bought up every blockbuster), and while the Special Editions allowed me to see them on the big screen, the idea of a NEW Star Wars film just blew my 19 year old mind.

This is kind of the sorrow I feel for the franchise, particularly after the Disney acquisition: it's completely over saturated and exposed, there's no sense of scarcity or value to the franchise anymore with 50 billion films scheduled for the next 10 years. For all it's faults - and there were many - Episode 1 was a true "event" movie.

Relikk · 19-05-2019 7:02pm

Inviere wrote: »

It's mad because for me, AotC is probably the worst of the bunch (total cack) and I'd not put TLJ in the same sentence as it (thus me not being a rabid SW fan that'd enjoy anything & everything SW related). I loved the story of TLJ, it felt new, fresh, and broke away from the pseudo-reboot which was TFA (ANH in a new skin). Yes, it juxtaposed with TFA in terms of overarching plot, but for me, that was for the better. Anyway, it's all been said, and nobody wants to read it all again - I just find it crazy how divisive the film is among fans

I will admit to a minutely slim hope of my view on TLJ changing in the future, but that hinges solely on how Ep. IX carries on from it, makes it relevant and finishes the trilogy. Because, at the moment, it feels like TLJ is a nothing movie, mostly irrelevant and added next to nothing following on from The Force Awakens (which I really like). It might as well not exist because of what the characters accomplished, or rather didn't accomplish.

Anyway, I'm done. You like it, I hate it. Let's move on. :pac:

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 7:13pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Grew up with Star Wars being a VHS medium, or the occasional presence on Christmas TV (back before sky bought up every blockbuster), and while the Special Editions allowed me to see them on the big screen, the idea of a NEW Star Wars film just blew my 19 year old mind.

This is kind of the sorrow I feel for the franchise, particularly after the Disney acquisition: it's completely over saturated and exposed, there's no sense of scarcity or value to the franchise anymore with 50 billion films scheduled for the next 10 years. For all it's faults - and there were many - Episode 1 was a true "event" movie.

How is it oversaturated and exposed though? There isn’t a new film for about another four years. And it’s a totally new Star Wars by most accounts.
If it even goes ahead. There’s buffoons on this very site delighting in signing that petition to have them game of thrones guys removed. One saying he wants to stick one to them, another saying he won’t be satisfied until all their future works are cancelled.

I would say the force awakens was equally as big as an event as phantom menace. If not bigger. The long promised ‘what happened next’. Even if it was not truly that. I would hope the next series for that tv service could bring in Luke somehow and his travels after the return of the Jedi. Would love that.

Tony EH · 19-05-2019 9:18pm

Relikk wrote: »

I will admit to a minutely slim hope of my view on TLJ changing in the future

What you don't like about it now isn't going to change in the future.

Tony EH · 19-05-2019 9:21pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

My problem with a lot of the complaints/outrage is that it tends to be completely devoid of being able to assess previous iterations with the ones that they now have issues with...

...Taking TLJ for example, I've rarely enjoyed the comedy in the SW franchise, finding it extremely clunky and forced, so I was shocked when people started claiming that that sort comedy was something new to TLJ.

You've missed the point of the criticism then.

It's not that there was comedy put into Star Wars. It's the type of comedy that's the bone of contention.

In the original movies, the comedy was very subtle and mainly focused on sarcasm from Han Solo and the odd quirky occurrence here and there.

In the prequels, the comedy was stupidly juvenile and slapstick, which got a HUGE level of criticism thrown at it. So much so, that one idiotic comedy character was written out of the series.

In the sequels, there are jokes, with setups and punchlines and THAT was new to Star Wars and was what people found objectionable. The "yo momma" thing was especially "off" to most viewers. Plus, these "jokes" destroyed the atmosphere of the scene that they were in. Coupled with that, there's the buffoonery of several characters that's cringe worthy in every scene they appear in.

Plus, the "franchise" is actually three fairly distinct trilogies that have very little connection if it's examined below the Star Wars moniker. What was present in one trilogy set, wasn't necessarily in another and the humour is quite different in each of them.

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 9:34pm

Tony EH wrote: »

What you don't like about it now isn't going to change in the future.

Thats just not true. It’s the same as saying you will forever like the things you liked in your past. No. You will not. There is plenty of films or music or even food we don’t like at one point we come to like later on in life and others we move on from having grown. I don’t understand sticking to one opinion forever. We should all be open to changing our minds.

Edit to point out- the first Star Wars was as clunky with humour as the new ones like last Jedi but the difference is if you have a charismatic performer like Harrison ford delivering the line, he can make it funny. And viewed through rose tinted glasses it will always hold up for anyone from the period.

Plenty of kids nowadays find the humour in the first Star Wars cringey. It’s not of their time. Just as these new films clearly aren’t for an audience our age who grew up with the first ones.

Tony EH · 19-05-2019 9:41pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Thats just not true. It’s the same as saying you will forever like the things you liked in your past. No. You will not. There is plenty of films or music or even food we don’t like at one point we come to like later on in life and others we move on from having grown. I don’t understand sticking to one opinion forever. We should all be open to changing our minds.

I'm not saying that.

However, it's clear that Relikk has a very negative disposition toward 'The Last Jedi' for reasons he has made very clear on numerous threads. There are fundamental issues he has with the story, characters and execution and no, that's very likely not going to change.

It's one thing not "getting" an over all atmosphere of something like 'The Big Lewbowski'. But there's entirely different set of problems at hand when you object vehemently to the essential elements that make up a film and its story.

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 9:44pm

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm not saying that.

However, it's clear that Relikk has a very negative disposition toward 'The Last Jedi' for reasons he has made very clear on numerous threads. There are fundamental issues he has with the story, characters and execution and no, that's very likely not going to change.

It's one thing not "getting" an over all atmosphere of something like 'The Big Lewbowski'. But there's entirely different set of problems at hand when you object vehemently to the essential elements that make up a film and its story.

I’m sorry I edited my post before I saw your reply.

pixelburp · 19-05-2019 9:47pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

How is it oversaturated and exposed though? There isn’t a new film for about another four years. And it’s a totally new Star Wars by most accounts.
If it even goes ahead. There’s buffoons on this very site delighting in signing that petition to have them game of thrones guys removed. One saying he wants to stick one to them, another saying he won’t be satisfied until all their future works are cancelled.

Just the fact Disney have a Plan for Star Wars is in of itself an intent towards saturation - the caveat obviously being that it may fail but we may assume it's set - whereas as when Lucas announced Episode 1 it was off the back of a very deliberate policy of the franchise being limited to the trilogy. Star Wars simply didn't exist anywhere (ignoring the extended universe of books and other media like those ewok TV movies) outside of 3 films.

Disney are no strangers to taking a franchise and monetising the hell out of it. Lucas did too, no doubt, but it's clear as day that Disney want Star Wars and the MCU to be pillars of their entertainment monopoly.

Tony EH · 19-05-2019 9:55pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Edit to point out- the first Star Wars was as clunky with humour as the new ones like last Jedi but the difference is if you have a charismatic performer like Harrison ford delivering the line, he can make it funny. And viewed through rose tinted glasses it will always hold up for anyone from the period.

As stated above, the humour in the original films is very subtle. It's a light touch. It's not in your face, it's not jokes and not slapstick. Harrison Ford's sarcy lines are well delivered, but the situations he delivers them in are well written too. His interactions with Princess Leia and the frustration he experiences with her character lead to well executed and slightly humorous banter, which isn't overt. It isn't "meta". It's not winking at the audience.

There's none of that in the prequels and the humour within them is badly written by a guy who just cannot write comedy.

The same goes for the sequels. Johnson is not a good writer, especially of comedy. Comedy which fell flat on its face at nearly every juncture and never needed to be written into the screenplay in the first place.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Plenty of kids nowadays find the humour in the first Star Wars cringey. It’s not of their time. Just as these new films clearly aren’t for an audience our age who grew up with the first ones.

I don't care what "kids nowadays" think.

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 10:00pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Just the fact Disney have a Plan for Star Wars is in of itself an intent towards saturation - the caveat obviously being that it may fail but we may assume it's set - whereas as when Lucas announced Episode 1 it was off the back of a very deliberate policy of the franchise being limited to the trilogy. Star Wars simply didn't exist anywhere (ignoring the extended universe of books and other media like those ewok TV movies) outside of 3 films.

Disney are no strangers to taking a franchise and monetising the hell out of it. Lucas did too, no doubt, but it's clear as day that Disney want Star Wars and the MCU to be pillars of their entertainment monopoly.

They like making money. I’ll never complain about more stuff I like.

I think and hope that Mandalorian series is going to have us changing our tune and wanting more. It’s not oversaturation when we’re enjoying it and it’s quality.
If they truly have the same budget as game of thrones. And it’s tv in Star Wars galaxy? They can’t mess it up.

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 10:04pm

Tony EH wrote: »

As stated above, the humour in the original films is very subtle. It's a light touch. It's not in your face, it's not jokes and not slapstick. Harrison Ford's sarcy lines are well delivered, but the situations he delivers them in are well written too. His interactions with Princess Leia and the frustration he experiences with her character lead to well executed and slightly humorous banter, which isn't overt. It isn't "meta". It's not winking at the audience.

There's none of that in the prequels and the humour within them is badly written by a guy who just cannot write comedy.

The same goes for the sequels. Johnson is not a good writer, especially of comedy. Comedy which fell flat on its face at nearly every juncture and never needed to be written into the screenplay in the first place.

I don't care what "kids nowadays" think.

To your last comment, just will add, these films aren’t aimed at me or you. You find it silly for that reason it seems. As with marvel it’s for the broadest reach possible. Kids to grandparents to enjoy. You can say you didn’t enjoy them. We cannot day they’re badly written. Meaning Johnson. It’s a flawed film but rose to great and went sure no Star Wars had gone before. Pun implied.

Tony EH · 19-05-2019 10:06pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

these films aren’t aimed at me or you. .

Yes, they are.

There's nothing exclusive about them.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

We cannot day they’re badly written.

Yes, we can.

The prequels were appallingly written and have a terrible execution on a basic story level which is clear from the events unfolding on the screen. There are explicit problems with character, story, direction and production.

The sequels, too, suffer in this regard. Just not as blatantly. 'The Force Awakens' was a cheap, by the numbers, riff on the 1977 film and 'The Last Jedi' has serious issues regarding plot and redundant characters that Johnson clearly had no idea what to do with, which were relegated to two of the most unnecessary subplots I ever seen in a movie.

So, yes, it's very possible to criticise the bad writing.

Stop moaning ffs · 19-05-2019 10:28pm

I have mixed feelings on the prequel. I watched the clone wars series and Lucas paid for that entire series out of his own pocket and was controlling the whole thing and they were fantastic. Easily made me rethink the prequels and elaborated and made sense of the scramble that is the prequels. What’s even going on on the politics alone in those films as they stand? Clone wars fills it all out.

That isn’t bad writing. That’s having such a huge vision and idea, it doesn’t fit and he made a series for tv to map it out. And it worked. We are getting a final season to clone wars too. That is going to be huge for anybody that has seen them. We don’t get to say what is bad writing unless we are film professors. We are not. We can say we don’t like it. That’s about all though.

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