Ladies only Gyms... a sexism uturn, or a refuge?

BarackPyjama · 17-01-2012 9:15am

Dudess wrote: »

Yes there would be uproar from some women if there were a men only gym - although the reason for a women only gym is a request for it, not "misandry". :rolleyes:
So why isn't there uproar over this from men? Oh yeah that's right - much easier to bitch and moan and blame "the" feminists. At least they actually get out there and complain if they've a gripe (even if I don't agree with them a lot of the time).
There is of course also the victimhood of the white man to navel-gaze over - yeah sure, they're never presidents or prime ministers or powerful businessmen.
Seriously though, men do face discrimination and sexism when it comes to certain aspects of life, but to maintain that they are in general a terribly downtrodden group, wake up.

I think the issue, rather than being downtrodden, is that men are sick and tired of being tarred with the same 'sex pest' brush. Claiming that women need women-only gyms because there are so many 'perverts' out there is highly offensive to the vast majority of men.

pickarooney · 17-01-2012 9:28am

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

On top of that, as there is nothing stopping men from having men-only gyms and mixed gyms do still exist, there seems to be little point, logically or fiscally, in purposefully denying a choice.

I honestly think this whole line of reasoning is a completely fallacious argument. While women often won't want to go to a mixed gym to be intimidated by a small section of the male populace, men are much less likely (it's virtually negligible) to be intimidated by these women than they are by the same men. And these men are likely to take umbrage at the insinuation that just because they're men women will want to avoid them or feel threatened by them.

BarackPyjama · 17-01-2012 9:38am

pickarooney wrote: »

I honestly think this whole line of reasoning is a completely fallacious argument. While women often won't want to go to a mixed gym to be intimidated by a small section of the male populace, men are much less likely (it's virtually negligible) to be intimidated by these women than they are by the same men. And these men are likely to take umbrage at the insinuation that just because they're men women will want to avoid them or feel threatened by them.

Precisely.

It's no different to men making sweeping generalisations about women and asking for women to be discriminated against as a result. My previous example - if men asked women not to be employed, or to have men-only companies established, because of the fear of excessive psychological abuse, bullying and bitching by women. Obviously that would be an insanity but it's the very same thing. Asking for an entire gender to be discriminated against because of an offensive stereotype which paints all men/women as abusive. It's sickening.

And yes, there is a difference between same sex gyms and men and women-only sports teams before anyone brings that ridiculous argument up again. Men and women have natural differences in physique. Therefore, both sexes would generally agree, that it makes sense to segregate the genders in sport. For safety reasons more than anything else. Businesses however, including gyms, have a (loose) legal obligation not to discriminate against anyone.

smallBiscuit · 17-01-2012 9:55am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

pickarooney wrote: »

I honestly think this whole line of reasoning is a completely fallacious argument. While women often won't want to go to a mixed gym to be intimidated by a small section of the male populace, men are much less likely (it's virtually negligible) to be intimidated by these women than they are by the same men. And these men are likely to take umbrage at the insinuation that just because they're men women will want to avoid them or feel threatened by them.

Precisely.

It's no different to men making sweeping generalisations about women and asking for women to be discriminated against as a result. My previous example - if men asked women not to be employed, or to have men-only companies established, because of the fear of excessive psychological abuse, bullying and bitching by women. Obviously that would be an insanity but it's the very same thing. Asking for an entire gender to be discriminated against because of an offensive stereotype which paints all men/women as abusive. It's sickening.

And yes, there is a difference between same sex gyms and men and women-only sports teams before anyone brings that ridiculous argument up again. Men and women have natural differences in physique. Therefore, both sexes would generally agree, that it makes sense to segregate the genders in sport. For safety reasons more than anything else. Businesses however, including gyms, have a (loose) legal obligation not to discriminate against anyone.

Ok, then fight it, join a woman only gym, when refused, take them to court

Any one remember the pub that was sued because they refused travellers?

Although, I have to say, women who go to these gyms are wrong. They should be fighting for equality. Just like men joined in when women were fighting for equal rights, they should acknowledge that not all men are pervs, and refuse to join.

Firekitten · 17-01-2012 11:05am

women are wrong for joining a women only gym? that's a tad out of order...

and its not just to do with 'pervy guys' as has been made plain in this thread... you're riding this hobby horse pretty hard tbh.

smallBiscuit · 17-01-2012 11:20am

Firekitten wrote: »

women are wrong for joining a women only gym? that's a tad out of order...

and its not just to do with 'pervy guys' as has been made plain in this thread... you're riding this hobby horse pretty hard tbh.

OK, then skip the reason for not wanting men in the gym ....

Everyone should refuse to join anything which discriminates against anyone, for any reason. Regardless of whether you are discriminated for or against.
Otherwise discrimination will continue.

The definition of discrimination
"dis·crim·i·na·tion/disˌkriməˈnāSHən/
Noun:
The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
Recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another."

Firekitten · 17-01-2012 11:56am

Ok, you can't use the men's toilet, you can't use the men's changing rooms, even if you're desperate!you must find and use a unisex toilet... you can change in the coridor, hey, its equal right?

You're picking ONE reason, and riding it to destruction, there are multiple reasons, and the simple fact that something is single sex, does not make it discriminatory by default. I suppose you disaprove of single sex schools too? If so, you should stop playing or watching sports ... starts getting silly doesn't it?

Morag · 17-01-2012 12:16pm

BarackPyjama wrote: »

I think the issue, rather than being downtrodden, is that men are sick and tired of being tarred with the same 'sex pest' brush. Claiming that women need women-only gyms because there are so many 'perverts' out there is highly offensive to the vast majority of men.

I can understand that, so what are you going to do about it?
Rail at women or start conversations with other men how about being creepy is not cool and seek to change society so that it is utterly unacceptable.

smallBiscuit wrote: »

Ok, then fight it, join a woman only gym, when refused, take them to court
Any one remember the pub that was sued because they refused travellers?

Although, I have to say, women who go to these gyms are wrong. They should be fighting for equality. Just like men joined in when women were fighting for equal rights, they should acknowledge that not all men are pervs, and refuse to join.

Because there are only so many hours in the the day and we only have so much engry and sometimes we don't want to have to gear up and fight we just want to work out, distress and go home.

Lapsed Catholic · 17-01-2012 12:30pm

The Equality Status Act prevents discriminisation outside of employment on 9 grounds. Gender being one.

2. Goods and Services
2.1 What is Prohibited?
People cannot discriminate (subject to certain exemptions):
• when they are providing goods and services to the public
(or a section of the public);
• whether these are free or where the goods and services
are sold, hired or rented or exchanged;
• access to and the use of services is covered.
2.2 What is a Service?
A service is a facility or service (of any nature) including
facilities for:
• banking, insurance, grants, loans, credit or financing;
• entertainment, recreation or refreshment;
• cultural activities;
• transport or travel;
• a service or facility provided by a club (which is available
to the public or a section of the public);
• a professional trade or service.

2.4 Different Treatment is Allowed
The Acts allow for people to be treated differently in certain
circumstances.
(i) Exemptions on the ground of gender
The Acts allow people to be treated differently on the gender
ground in relation to:
(a) Cosmetic services
Covering cosmetic, aesthetic or similar services which
involve physical contact (e.g. hairdressing).
(b) Privacy/embarrassment
Where embarrassment or breach of privacy could
reasonably be expected to happen on account of the
presence of a person of another gender

I don't think this allows for a single sex gym and would seem to apply to toilet and changing facilities.

Firekitten · 17-01-2012 1:25pm

Plenty exist...and have for years, if its clearly a breach of the law, why have they not been closed or protested? or women's book clubs, or the Irish countrywomen's Association...

There's plenty already in Ireland... its not theoretical;
Ladies fitness centre
Curves
Ultimate Woman Fitness
Women's Fitness

To name but four I found with a quick google search.

Women's fitness claims to be Cork's biggest women only gym... this suggests there are many around, surely something so 'grossly sexist' and 'illegal' would have been dealt with by now?

Lapsed Catholic · 17-01-2012 1:51pm

Firekitten wrote: »

Plenty exist...and have for years, if its clearly a breach of the law, why have they not been closed or protested? or women's book clubs, or the Irish countrywomen's Association...

There's plenty already in Ireland... its not theoretical;
Ladies fitness centre
Curves
Ultimate Woman Fitness
Women's Fitness

To name but four I found with a quick google search.

Women's fitness claims to be Cork's biggest women only gym... this suggests there are many around, surely something so 'grossly sexist' and 'illegal' would have been dealt with by now?

Because most men couldn't give a continental fcuk about women only clubs etc. It seems to be that some women that have a problem with such facilities for men. Hence the Portmarnock GC case.

PS I never mentioned illegal or grossly sexist.

smallBiscuit · 17-01-2012 1:53pm

Firekitten wrote: »

Plenty exist...and have for years, if its clearly a breach of the law, why have they not been closed or protested? or women's book clubs, or the Irish countrywomen's Association...

There's plenty already in Ireland... its not theoretical;
Ladies fitness centre
Curves
Ultimate Woman Fitness
Women's Fitness

To name but four I found with a quick google search.

Women's fitness claims to be Cork's biggest women only gym... this suggests there are many around, surely something so 'grossly sexist' and 'illegal' would have been dealt with by now?

Maybe the reason is (and this is not meant to be any sort of insult to either sex) men don't care enough

But I'd love to now what would happen if I decided to join curves. If they refused me what sort of case would I have? I think a good one, but I'm not arsed to find out. I don't care enough

howtomake · 17-01-2012 2:35pm

There are gyms for men only, its called Cuts for Men. I don't even know if they are still around.

Chinafoot · 17-01-2012 3:32pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

As I already stated I have no problem with single sex gyms, as long as they exist for both sexes. It is not about demand or business acumen its about the hypocrisy of some women advocating female only gyms yet denying males the same rights.

Where are women denying men their right to a single sex gym?

There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from setting up a male only gym if they have the capital and the demand to run it successfully.

Standman · 17-01-2012 4:39pm

I understand people debating the principles involved and whether society would as easily accept a male only gym, it's definitely an interesting topic and I think women do get an easier ride with these kind of things. I get that the hypocrisy is annoying, however I really don't see how any men could claim such outrage at being discriminated against when the existence of female only gyms doesn't affect them negatively in any way. I don't know much about the golf course issue but just because women make these demands doesn't mean that men should automatically do the same, it smacks of guys trying to get their own back at the pesky feminists.

Maguined · 17-01-2012 5:36pm

I honestly don't think the reason why a single sex gym would exist is important but whether it's existence is sexist at all. What does the motivation matter? individual clients are going to have their own individual motivations and desires so it's really the core concept of a single sex gym being sexist or not that is important.

Personally as long as a male only gym would be allowed by law than I am perfectly fine with a female only gym. Having a men's ad women's segregated toilets is not sexist as both are equally offered and catered for in public areas so both genders have equal opportunity of access. If a public area that catered to both genders but only provided toilet facilities for one gender it would be a case of discrimination.

Just because no business have opted to create a male only gym does not constitute sexism as long as they have the opportunity to do so which I believe they would be allowed do as female only gyms are allowed.

panda100 · 17-01-2012 8:04pm

Are there Ladies in the LL that use female only gyms such as Curves, and what are their reasons for doing so?Would be interesting to hear!
Do women here feel self concious exercising in the gym with guys around?

Chinafoot · 17-01-2012 8:50pm

panda100 wrote: »

Are there Ladies in the LL that use female only gyms such as Curves, and what are their reasons for doing so?Would be interesting to hear!
Do women here feel self concious exercising in the gym with guys around?

I don't at the moment but as someone who is currently overweight, I would not feel comfortable going to a "normal" gym and would be more likely to start off somewhere like Curves because it is geared towards women in the same situation.

I find it hilarious that people are pushing the line "you're calling all men sex pests. Misandry! Misandry!!" I would hazard a guess that most people are more self-conscience about their bodies and how other, more fit people (regardless of gender) view them as opposed to being worried about having to fend of lusty men.

It has nothing to do with being afraid of men, its about my own insecurities with my body and my desire to be in an environment where I can ease into a fitness regime with women in the same situation as myself. I have friends who used Curves for this very reason and then when they felt more comfortable, they "graduated" to a standard gym and worked on their fitness. They all said that Curves was fine to start off but they soon felt they needed to be pushed more; something the Curves format isn't really designed for.

I am absolutely amazed at some of the responses on this thread and it seems to be a case of just wanting to run down feminism despite feminism having nothing to do with it.

sam34 · 17-01-2012 9:07pm

panda100 wrote: »

Are there Ladies in the LL that use female only gyms such as Curves, and what are their reasons for doing so?Would be interesting to hear!
Do women here feel self concious exercising in the gym with guys around?

I used curves in the past when I had a lot of weight to lose and was quite unfit - I thought it would be a less intimidating atmosphere than a regular gym, was afraid of super-fit people looking down at me.

now though I just go to a regular gym.

Logical Fallacy · 18-01-2012 2:47am

Okay, this is my take on things as a long time gym goer and former Personal Trainer.

You need to train where you are comfortable and feel the most in tune with what you are trying to do...it will help you too achieve your goals.

If that means you never use a gym and just walk, run and cycle on the street...if you feel body conscious and need a place to lessen the impact of that...whatever the reason, it doesn't matter.

It's not a huge leap of logic to say that oftentimes people who are just getting into the concept of physical fitness may feel conscious about their appearance. I know girls who felt fat or unfit when they started and i know blokes who felt small and weak or maybe fat as well, who they were and what their hangup was didn't matter, their hangup was affecting their confidence and this in turn would actually affect their ability to train hard or even at all. People WILL leave a gym early if they feel too self conscious, or they may not even go at all and wrap the insecurity up in an excuse of being too busy or too tired.

As such, i honestly don't care what kind of establishments people run, or what kind of establishments people want to go to. Women only gyms, men only gyms, or women/men only sections in gyms...it's really about understanding that the first steps on the road to physical fitness are tough and there can be some emotional baggage involved.

It's really just about showing people a little bit of understanding imo.

@sam34 - that is quite a common feeling to have at the start...often times my first few sessions with a new client were about building up a trust and letting them know that i wasn't judging them or looking down on them.

I'm delighted to hear that you moved past that though as it's always fantastic to see people becoming more confident in themselves as they get into their training more and more.

ash23 · 18-01-2012 10:23am

I have used female gyms and my reasoning was that I was(and still am having given it up

) very very unfit. And quite fat at the time.

I was way too self concious to be huffing and puffing and wobbling around like a beached whale. I was mortified in front of the women too but I don't think I could have hacked the shame of being like that in front of men.

I would anticipate that as a starter to a gym a female gym would be a good place to start. I also think they tend to be "easier" and more geared towards beginners. A mixed gym seems to be more intense. I might not be explaining it right but for me, I picture the mixed gym in our local pool as being full of athletic, fit, toned, tanned bods running on treadmills, barely breaking a sweat. And I picture our local ladies gym as being full of people huffing and puffing and jiggling while they run, just like me

Even take the names of them. Curves. Versus mixed gyms invariably using a combination of terms such as Physique, fitness, Abs, Crunch etc.
The name of these gyms conjure and image of body builders and I'd feel like I would be the unfittest, fattest person there.

rich.d.berry · 18-01-2012 11:01am

I find this thread a bit strange because my personal belief is that women are far more critical of other women than men and are constantly comparing themselves to other women.

All I need to look at for confirmation of this, are women's magazines, to see how a beautiful body and stylish dressing are a female obsession. There are a few men's magazines that are of a similar nature but they have a far smaller circulation.

Women notice the little things that escape men, like not wearing make-up, clashing colours, hair colour in need of a touch-up etc.

I've often said to my wife that I believe women dress more to impress other women than they do to impress men.

I know that men will stare at and ogle a shapely, beautiful girl in a gym, but from what I've seen, these are not the women wanting the women only option. If they did not want the attention they wouldn't flaunt it. The staring men boost their egos.

The less attractive women are not stared at or given undue attention by men unless they draw attention because they look ridiculous (mutton dressed up as lamb), look strange (excessive body hair) or do funny things (like use the equipment incorrectly). I think the discomfort is derived from feeling that they can't compete with the "beautiful girls".

Ickle Magoo · 18-01-2012 11:07am

rich.d.berry wrote: »

I find this thread a bit strange because my personal belief is that women are far more critical of other women than men and are constantly comparing themselves to other women.

All I need to look at for confirmation of this, are women's magazines, to see how a beautiful body and stylish dressing are a female obsession.

rich.d.berry wrote: »

The less attractive women are not stared at or given undue attention by men unless they draw attention because they look ridiculous (mutton dressed up as lamb), look strange (excessive body hair) or do funny things (like use the equipment incorrectly). I think the discomfort is derived from feeling that they can't compete with the "beautiful girls".

:eek:

:pac:

As long as it's legal and applies equally to both sexes, I don't see how it possibly can be sexist...demanding women go to mixed gyms when they have well documented history of receiving unwanted attentions or are considered "flaunting it" (double :eek:) on the other hand...

Lapsed Catholic · 18-01-2012 11:23am

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

:eek: :pac:

As long as it's legal and applies equally to both sexes, I don't see how it possibly can be sexist...demanding women go to mixed gyms when they have well documented history of receiving unwanted attentions or are considered "flaunting it" (double :eek:) on the other hand...

Apart from a few claims on here, where is the well documented history that women receive unwanted attention in unisex gyms?

Ickle Magoo · 18-01-2012 11:31am

Maguined wrote: »

I honestly don't think the reason why a single sex gym would exist is important but whether it's existence is sexist at all. What does the motivation matter? individual clients are going to have their own individual motivations and desires so it's really the core concept of a single sex gym being sexist or not that is important.

Personally as long as a male only gym would be allowed by law than I am perfectly fine with a female only gym. Having a men's ad women's segregated toilets is not sexist as both are equally offered and catered for in public areas so both genders have equal opportunity of access. If a public area that catered to both genders but only provided toilet facilities for one gender it would be a case of discrimination.

Just because no business have opted to create a male only gym does not constitute sexism as long as they have the opportunity to do so which I believe they would be allowed do as female only gyms are allowed.

Exactly - seems much odder to me to be demanding that the law be change in order that women don't have a choice of gyms to attend...

rich.d.berry · 18-01-2012 11:36am

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

:eek: :pac:

As long as it's legal and applies equally to both sexes, I don't see how it possibly can be sexist...demanding women go to mixed gyms when they have well documented history of receiving unwanted attentions or are considered "flaunting it" (double :eek:) on the other hand...

When did I say it was sexist or demand that women use mixed gyms?

I just find it strange that women would want an exclusively female audience when I perceive the most critical audience of women to be other women and the most appreciative audience to be men.

I don't care one way or the other. If women want their own gyms then that's fine by me.

There are women who dress provocatively in gyms. They eschew more modest exercise wear for the sake of making the most of their assets. If my use of the word "flaunting" for this practice offends women then I apologise.

stovelid · 18-01-2012 11:37am

Coincidentally, a female colleague posted a joke on her facebook about ogling guys in the gym the other day. Didn't bother me.

I get where the demand comes from for female gym space and am not exactly opposed to it but the idea of satisfying business demand goes both ways: if I was a member of a gym, paying the same fees as female members, I would expect use of the same amount of facilities or I would find another gym. Or to pay less.

It's also surely not true that overweight or non-fit men are not self concious about working out in front of fit men or women.

ash23 · 18-01-2012 11:41am

stovelid wrote: »

It's also surely not true that overweight or non-fit men are not self concious about working out in front of fit men or women.

There's male only slimming classes for this very reason.
They're very common.

CiaranC · 18-01-2012 11:59am

Chinafoot wrote: »

I don't at the moment but as someone who is currently overweight, I would not feel comfortable going to a "normal" gym and would be more likely to start off somewhere like Curves because it is geared towards women in the same situation.

I find it hilarious that people are pushing the line "you're calling all men sex pests. Misandry! Misandry!!" I would hazard a guess that most people are more self-conscience about their bodies and how other, more fit people (regardless of gender) view them as opposed to being worried about having to fend of lusty men.

It has nothing to do with being afraid of men, its about my own insecurities with my body and my desire to be in an environment where I can ease into a fitness regime with women in the same situation as myself.

I really dont understand this. What difference does it make if its men or women who are looking at you? Do you think men are judging you by your body but women arent? Why would this be the case?

I got a bit fat a few months back, I got a bit self concious at the beach with the old rubber tyre on display. I dont remember thinking "I wish it was all blokes here", it never occurred to me. I think there is more in the psychology of this than is being stated. Its like women think if they go to an all womens gym men wont find out that they are fat or something and they can sort it out before men find out. Bizarre.

Ickle Magoo · 18-01-2012 12:02pm

rich.d.berry wrote: »

When did I say it was sexist or demand that women use mixed gyms?

I just find it strange that women would want an exclusively female audience when I perceive the most critical audience of women to be other women and the most appreciative audience to be men.

I don't care one way or the other. If women want their own gyms then that's fine by me.

The smilies were pointing out the irony of your [meow] post given your statement about women being critical...the other line was not meant to be directed at anyone particularly.

rich.d.berry wrote: »

There are women who dress provocatively in gyms. They eschew more modest exercise wear for the sake of making the most of their assets. If my use of the word "flaunting" for this practice offends women then I apologise.

There are - but on the other-hand it's nice to be able to train in whatever clothes a woman finds most comfortable without feeling that certain attitudes will assume she's doing it for male attention, flaunting her body, or feeling she has to wear a baggy tee and joggers to avoid such assumptions and any approaches/looks or comments based on such assumptions.

Where you realise it or not, some of these posts about rights to look and assumptions about women's intentions based on their attire are prime examples of why mixed-gyms can be more hassle than they are worth...as well as all the other deciding factors of course, such as price, location, etc.

Ladies only Gyms... a sexism uturn, or a refuge?

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