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Ladies only Gyms... a sexism uturn, or a refuge?

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    #32
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Oh good, nothing like throwing out the old hysterical slippery slope fallacy when demanding your right to look admiringly at women. :pac:


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    #33
    howtomake
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭howtomake


    Women only sections & gyms usually have crappy equipment for what I want to do. I go to a gym where there are only like 5 females, the guys are actually quite respectful. Although we don't have our own steam room.


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    #34
    smallBiscuit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭smallBiscuit


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    How quaintly archaic.

    There is actually a very fine line between admiring looks and creeping a woman out - which I suspect, ironically enough, is a large part of the issue.
    I'd agree with that and admit I find it hard to stop myself from looking at attractive women, Basically because I'm worried about being 'a perv', and fully aware how uncomfortable it would make me if the roles were reversed. Generally I'd try to turn around in some completely different direction or watch telly (my gym has one)
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    And yet on this short thread alone women have both agreed that there should be men-only gyms/gym-rooms and disagreed that there should be single sex gyms at all so to come to the rather hysterical conclusion that it "completely invalidates feminism" is a nonsense.
    Taken from here
    "Feminism, as a movement, is about women living on equal terms with men--and not pushed down, by law or by culture, into a subservient role."

    Now that means the reverse is also true, in order for women to live on equal terms with men, men must also live on equal terms with women.
    If A=B, B must therefore = A
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I take it you are as vocal in your campaign for mixed toilets and changing rooms?

    I've had that argument yes :D
    But, only in the abstract. I think it would make me very uncomfortable, where I'd prefer not to go tbh.
    The aquatic centre has it right I think. No separate Male/female sections just a bunch of individual stalls.


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    #35
    Lapsed Catholic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    Not being hysterical, just trying to give women what they seem to want. Segregation.

    That's twice you've accused posters of being hysterical. Perhaps you protest too much.


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    #36
    Firekitten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Firekitten


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    I disagree. Looking at admiringly and being creepy are two entirely different things.
    erm, heh, ok then.

    As for the argument invalidating feminism... I'd argue that the option of males and females to have individual spaces for exersise, OR the choice of mixed, is a true example of equality, catering for both sexes individually and equally. and to me that's more important than dragging out the name of feminism to muddy the waters.

    Yes, having women only gyms could be considered sexist, gyms that were mixed offering women only sessions... perhaps too, but the ability to offer both? good... progress infact. Recognising that men AND women can feel bad about thier bodies means that we should do what we can to encourage BOTH to change for the better, perhaps when they felt better, then mixed conditions wouldnt bother them?

    In the face of this, what's the likelyhood that when looking for a gym, I'd pick a women only gym? Yes, at this stage they exist, and perhaps its sexist, but I think I would if it had good facilities... perhaps that's bad of me, but if I'm honest, I think my self esteem point CAN be a moot point, as if one is self consious enough to not want to exersise at a gym for fear of others seeing them, well... its going to be equally bad being around physically fitter members of the same sex.

    Last point, this might be niave of me, but are there any men only gyms left? and to any male readers of this, would you feel more comfortable not having women checking YOU out while you exercise?


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    #37
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    smallBiscuit wrote: »
    Taken from here
    "Feminism, as a movement, is about women living on equal terms with men--and not pushed down, by law or by culture, into a subservient role."

    Now that means the reverse is also true, in order for women to live on equal terms with men, men must also live on equal terms with women.
    If A=B, B must therefore = A

    I've already pointed out the varying views in this thread alone. Are you suggesting every woman, any woman who considers themselves a feminist wants women-only gyms to exist and no men-only gyms to exist? Do you think Curves is owned by "the feminist movement"...I'm not seeing the correlation with feminism here...it's a popular preference for many reasons (some highlighted by attitudes shown in this thread already) that businesses have cashed in on.
    smallBiscuit wrote: »
    I've had that argument yes :D
    But, only in the abstract. I think it would make me very uncomfortable, where I'd prefer not to go tbh.
    The aquatic centre has it right I think. No separate Male/female sections just a bunch of individual stalls.

    "it would make me very uncomfortable, where I'd prefer not to go tbh. " which in a nutshell, I reckon covers why some women choose women-only gyms over mixed and thus it became a business venture worth pursuing.

    Imagine if a group of people started demanding you have no right to the kind of toilet you like, sure we all pee and poo and what's the big deal - you should be made to be uncomfortable and go to mixed, anything else is a sexist disgrace? Silly, isn't it. :P

    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Not being hysterical, just trying to give women what they seem to want. Segregation.

    That's twice you've accused posters of being hysterical. Perhaps you protest too much.

    Or perhaps there are a lot of strawmen and hysterics being put forward?

    Yeah, "women" want segregation - across the board, all of them....more exaggeration - and given the answers on the thread so far deliberately obtuse and disingenuous to boot...little point in discussing an issue with you if you are going to resort to such childish tactics.


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    #38
    atila
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭atila


    Never let commen sense get in the way when there is something to be argued! 99.8% of the population wouldnt bat an eyelid at the idea of a women only gym.

    I sense that some posters are getting at the fact that mountains have been made of molehills before on issues and that it would be interesting to know if conistancy would be maintained by people vocal on such issues..

    I remember meeting a particularly militant person I came across who insisted that "she/he" should always alternate with "he/she" in communication - it was petty, annoying and ridiculous so much so that I would get a tickle from seeing the mental gyrations this person would go through on such a non issue.


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    #39
    smallBiscuit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭smallBiscuit


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I've already pointed out the varying views in this thread alone. Are you suggesting every woman, any woman who considers themselves a feminist wants women-only gyms to exist and no men-only gyms to exist? Do you think Curves is owned by "the feminist movement"
    Is Curves women only?
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Imagine if a group of people started demanding you have no right to the kind of toilet you like, sure we all pee and poo and what's the big deal - you should be made to be uncomfortable and go to mixed, anything else is a sexist disgrace? Silly, isn't it. :P
    Ok, I don't think we're disagreeing in principle. But I think if you want women only, you must also have men only. Because there are men who feel self conscious about women watching them (which they do, albeit not as much)
    Otherwise it is definitely sexist. (if Curves is women only, that's also sexist)
    A quote from Animal Farm comes to mind. (the book, not that movie ;))
    At the start of the book
    "All animals are equal"
    At the End
    "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others" :D

    That is what I meant by invalidating feminism, my view (perhaps wrongly) is that feminism is about equality, not inequality in the other direction


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    #40
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    smallBiscuit wrote: »
    Is Curves women only?

    Yeah, think so.
    smallBiscuit wrote: »
    Ok, I don't think we're disagreeing in principle. But I think if you want women only, you must also have men only. Because there are men who feel self conscious about women watching them (which they do, albeit not as much)
    Otherwise it is definitely sexist. (if Curves is women only, that's also sexist)
    A quote from Animal Farm comes to mind. (the book, not that movie ;))
    At the start of the book
    "All animals are equal"
    At the End
    "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others" :D

    That is what I meant by invalidating feminism, my view (perhaps wrongly) is that feminism is about equality, not inequality in the other direction

    I don't think we're disagreeing at all - if you read my first post on the thread...I'm just confused as to what you think business people supplying for a clear demand which has, I assume, really only come from one gender has to do with feminism? If men want men only gyms then create a demand for them, businesses aren't set up just in the interest of gender fairness! :D


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    #41
    Firekitten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Firekitten


    not to speak for Ickle Magoo, but they did say at the start of the thread that if there were women only times or spaces, men should have the same..


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    #42
    Lapsed Catholic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Yeah, "women" want segregation - across the board, all of them....more exaggeration - and given the answers on the thread so far deliberately obtuse and disingenuous to boot...little point in discussing an issue with you if you are going to resort to such childish tactics.

    Ah the old attack the response to discredit it ploy. I believe, obviously wrongly, that my post was sarcastic not hysteric. Before you accuse posters of being hysterical and childish you should perhaps examine your own contributions to the discussion.


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    #43
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    I'd say its mostly women don't want to be leered at when they're in skimpy clothes doing things like stretching and bending down etc. Don't blame them.

    I read a good piece here about sexuality and fear - and basically why cat calls tend to be a lot more intimidating for women than men. I think this may play into it.

    Guys generally don't care about girls leering at them so there's never going to be much demand for a male only gym. Indeed the number of men who would prefer a male only gym for that reason would likely be far outweighed by the number of men who like women being around whilst they train.


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    #44
    smallBiscuit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭smallBiscuit


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »

    I don't think we're disagreeing at all - if you read my first post on the thread...I'm just confused as to what you think business people supplying for a clear demand which has, I assume, really only come from one gender has to do with feminism? If men want men only gyms then create a demand for them, businesses aren't set up just in the interest of gender fairness! :D

    O,k I'm going to respond in a way which reminds me a lot of the life of brian :)

    Lets agree in principal that women, or men, only gyms are a terrible sexist idea. While at the same time admitting that they make good business sense, and do exist :)


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    #45
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    As a male frequenter of a gym I think its entirely appropriate for women to have their own gyms. Given what I've seen from some of my male gym colleagues I can only imagine how awkward it must be sometimes for a woman in a mixed gym.

    It can only be the more unconscious and unaware of males that would consider it negatively "sexist". And I dont think men need their own gyms to balance it up.


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    #46
    Firekitten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Firekitten


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Ah the old attack the response to discredit it ploy. I believe, obviously wrongly, that my post was sarcastic not hysteric. Before you accuse posters of being hysterical and childish you should perhaps examine your own contributions to the discussion.
    To be fair, I'm a fairly sarcastic person, and I've learned not to do it online because it can be completely misinterpreted and taken the wrong way. So its not too far fetched that she go the wrong end of the stick.


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    #47
    smallBiscuit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭smallBiscuit


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    As a male frequenter of a gym I think its entirely appropriate for women to have their own gyms. Given what I've seen from some of my male gym colleagues I can only imagine how awkward it must be sometimes for a woman in a mixed gym.

    It can only be the more unconscious and unaware of males that would consider it negatively "sexist". And I dont think men need their own gyms to balance it up.
    Ok, the gym I infrequent is a company gym, so I never see that. Maybe a bit of name and shame is needed? or a good kick in the arse?


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    #48
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    smallBiscuit wrote: »
    O,k I'm going to respond in a way which reminds me a lot of the life of brian :)

    Lets agree in principal that women, or men, only gyms are a terrible sexist idea. While at the same time admitting that they make good business sense, and do exist :)

    I don't agree that they are terrible sexist idea though - any more than I think women's changing rooms, or women's toilets are a terrible sexist idea.

    I guess ultimately folks can choose to believe they exist due to some hateful generic wish to discriminate against men en masse or they can acknowledge (as BoS, InTheTrees, etc have pointed out above), there are some very valid reasons why they are popular with some. On top of that, as there is nothing stopping men from having men-only gyms and mixed gyms do still exist, there seems to be little point, logically or fiscally, in purposefully denying a choice.


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    #49
    enfant terrible
    Registered Users Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    Firekitten wrote: »
    In the face of this, what's the likelyhood that when looking for a gym, I'd pick a women only gym? Yes, at this stage they exist, and perhaps its sexist, but I think I would if it had good facilities... perhaps that's bad of me, but if I'm honest, I think my self esteem point CAN be a moot point, as if one is self consious enough to not want to exersise at a gym for fear of others seeing them, well... its going to be equally bad being around physically fitter members of the same sex.

    If a man chose a male only golf club would you consider him sexiest? if he chose it for the same reasons you chose your female only gym?


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    #50
    johnners2981
    Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭johnners2981


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I don't agree that they are terrible sexist idea though - any more than I think women's changing rooms, or women's toilets are a terrible sexist idea.

    I guess ultimately folks can choose to believe they exist due to some hateful generic wish to discriminate against men en masse or they can acknowledge (as BoS, InTheTrees, etc have pointed out above), there are some very valid reasons why they are popular with some. On top of that, as there is nothing stopping men from having men-only gyms and mixed gyms do still exist, there seems to be little point, logically or fiscally, in purposefully denying a choice.

    Are there any male only gyms? Not that I'm aware of, maybe power lifting gyms are male dominated but I doubt they'd turn any serious female weight lifter away.

    If something is male only it'll be heavily criticized, it's quite hypocritical in my view


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    #51
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    I'm a member of Westwood in Clontarf, and I have to admit I find the gym so, so refreshing because there is a healthy mix of male and females in all the classes. I think its great to see lots of guys doing the body toning classes, which I would never have seen in the other gyms I was a member of.

    I can understand why some women feel self concious in the gym.I always feel really concious when I go swimming in UL, as there is always teens shouting out comments about how you look.However, I think the way forward is not segregation but putting the emphasis on exercising for health, and not to look better in a bikini. The only segregation that should happend in swimming pools and gyms is kids and adults!


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    #52
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    enfant terrible wrote: »
    If a man chose a male only golf club would you consider him sexiest? if he chose it for the same reasons you chose your female only gym?

    Male only gym isn't a terribly interesting question. What do people think of a straight male only gym?


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    #53
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    johnners2981 wrote: »
    Are there any male only gyms? Not that I'm aware of, maybe power lifting gyms are male dominated but I doubt they'd turn any serious female weight lifter away.

    I have no idea, I was merely pointing out that legally there is nothing to stop there being any, bar lack of demand...
    johnners2981 wrote: »
    If something is male only it'll be heavily criticized, it's quite hypocritical in my view

    You mean like female-only is being criticized here? Hardly hypocritical, more dog-in-the-manger, if you ask me.


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    #54
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    So what is the issue exactly?
    • Women should have women-only gyms because they feel self-conscious training in front of men?
    • Women should have women-only gyms because there are so many evil, nasty men out there who are going to leer at and/or harass them?
    The former might make sense but probably doesn't justify women-only gyms - more a readjustment of attitude and a sorting out ones self-esteem. The latter is misandry, pure and simple.


    There seems to be a mix of opinions here. But those who believe that women should have women-only gyms because so many men are harassing, leery and aggressive... well, quite frankly, that opinion makes me sick to my stomach and makes me wonder what the hell is going on in the mind of the contemporary Irish woman. Do you really distrust/hate men so much?


    If Portmarnock GC decide they don't want women members because they're all bitchy and obnoxious/talk too loudly and annoy the male members, would that kind of sexist generalisation wash? No, it would be considered massively misogynistic.


    I weep for the future, so I do.


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    #55
    Firekitten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Firekitten


    If we can, and people consider that ok, a male only gym should be equally acceptable. Anything short of that is the true sexism... Equality is not just between the sexes, but amongst them. Members of each sex should be allowed to live and enjoy life in whatever way they please as long as it does not infringe on the rights of another to do the same.

    If men want a male only space for exersise, and the demand is there, someone should be able to cater for it without cries of sexism. We have single sex schools, teams, toilets, changing areas, because the sexes have different needs and desires. Some consider that antiquated, but unless they are willing to practice what they preach, they should put up, or shut up.

    I've exersised and done intensive physical training with both men and women together when I was with the British territorial army whilst at university... I'm perfectly happy to do it, but you know? it would be nice for many reasons to go to a female only gym, but I wouldn't shy from the usual mixed kind anymore than Id choose it.

    Leering, 'meat markets' and the body image/ shyness reasons aside, having spent time in the TA doing PT with just other women, its a WHOLE different atmosphere, and I don't mean varying levels of fitness, or weight, but it was really encouraging, and friendly, and was a real social bonding experience.

    (personal opinon)


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    #56
    Standman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    If a woman feels uncomfortable around men when shes working out it's entirely her prerogative if she wants to go to a female only gym or whatever. I think if there's a demand for something then it should be supplied, within reason of course, and this applies to women's gyms.

    I would say however that I think this does play into the whole attitude that women are the "fairer" sex and need their own special area where they can feel safe, away from the eyes of men. Women do sometimes make me uncomfortable in gyms, especially in sauna/steam room. It's sometimes very noticeable how some women are uncomfortable being around guys they don't know in this environment, and it's really not a pleasant feeling knowing how uneasy you are making someone just by being there. Sometimes I almost feel like apologising for entering the room.


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    #57
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    Standman wrote: »
    I would say however that I think this does play into the whole attitude that women are the "fairer" sex and need their own special area where they can feel safe, away from the eyes of men.

    That suggests to me that men are considered 'unsafe' and, quite frankly, I find that highly insulting. Having said that, some men are unsafe. Some women are dangerous too. That's a fact of life unfortunately. Segregating the sexes purely due to the insinuation that men are potentially dangerous is extremely sexist.


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    #58
    Lia_lia
    Registered Users Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Lia_lia


    Stench Blossoms wrote: »
    What are women friendly machines?

    Well, this is the curves style circuit they have in the women's section of the gym I used to go to.

    IMG_0001.JPG


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    #59
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    All it can take is 1% of the men that use the gym to be ill mannered and think that staring/leering or making comments is ok to put off enough of the women who'd use the gym. It can create a very uncomfortable atmosphere


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    #60
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    Sharrow wrote: »
    All it can take is 1% of the men that use the gym to be ill mannered and think that staring/leering or making comments is ok to put off enough of the women who'd use the gym. It can create a very uncomfortable atmosphere

    Report them to management.


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    #61
    howtomake
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭howtomake


    I'm loving my "gym" even more from all of this, I would be crushed if they kicked us minority women folk out. Then again I would say that most of us there are there to train, & train hard, none of the nonsense you see in some commercial gyms.


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