Ladies only Gyms... a sexism uturn, or a refuge?

Firekitten

Hey there, This is my first topic, nay, post here, but I have been reading for a while, just not felt like I had much to contribute... Till this morning.

Raising the subject of women only Gyms after reading some stupid facebook comment from one of his buddies, my boyfriend asked me what I thought...
My view? A safe place; away from the meat market that some mixed gyms can become, somewhere the more self conscious ladies can exercise without feeling bad... (I'd group myself in that category as extremely self conscious and body shy).

In a society that says women should be tphotoshop-thin and beautiful, lets be honest, without the services of a digital aritst on retainer attaining that requires exercise... cue the eternal catch 22...

As much as we may feel one way, are we being sexist without realizing? Is baring men simply the repeat of our own past? I personally don't agree, yet I can understand the view, and that considering I've never seen a men's only gym (a lot of feminist activists saw to that on principal rather than practicality)... why should we be allowed to?

While I'm steadfastly behind the concept of women only gyms, I am accutely aware of the irony at the same time... And while my boyfriend makes a good point in his argument that it is infact, sexist, he did manage to annoy the crap out of me while doing it ( subtlty and tact are not his strong suits.) so we agreed to disagree, realising we had hit eachother's limits. So I decided to finally post here, and raise the subject... Whats your view? Are we entitled to a safe place, should we suck it up and work out in a mixed environment because its unfair to bar men?


Rachael

Ickle Magoo

I think it's got much less to do with politics and more to do with basic business acumen.

There is clearly a demand for women-only gyms - why is an irrelevancy in economic terms - thus, they exist. All it takes is one guy behaving inappropriately, whether that be hitting on women, staring or flashing or whatever else there have been multiple reports of, to put women off attending that gym, word to get around that it's filled with creeps and the gym to lose money...thus women-only sections in gyms become a viable, if not sensible, business move. Add to that number the many women who feel more comfortable exercising in a female-only environment and women only gyms make good business sense...

I also think that in the interests of fairness and good economic sense; wherever demand exists, there should be men-only gyms and/or men-only sections in gyms...there's no reason why men should feel any less embarrassed or intimidated by women watching their work outs so I don't see any logical reason to allow one and not the other. Surely giving the choice of all for those who wish is the ideal?

Firekitten

I agree... If (And when) I rule the world, Gyms would have male only sessions, mixed sessions, and female only sessions... Its fair, it would, as you say, draw the shyer client from either sex out (penty of men probably feel pretty self conscious about battling the blub in front of us too), and please all sides...

Lapsed Catholic

I think that men and women need time among their own to socialise/exercise:relax etc etc. In this pc world we seem reluctant to express ourselves as being different.

But, there's always a but, if there are to be all female gyms then sisterhood can't complain about club like Portmarnock GC not allowing lady members. It runs both ways. I personally have no problem with either.

Ickle Magoo

The sisterhood :rolleyes:
In legal terms I think it comes down to being able to give a rational reason why there should be segregation; ie toilets Vs a cafe.

Firekitten

Rational and legal is the key here, 'tradition' doesn't really cut it, but then, theres plenty of apparently... 'valid' reasons blocking women still in some areas of society.

Golf.. aside from tradition, its hitting a ball around a field at its crux... both my boyfriend's parents play... his mum can't go when his dad does... I find that really quite silly, but thats a different topic.

Rational reasons... well, the same as toilets really. We have either, or unisex... same with changing rooms (with cubicles) and other such facilities... Gyms wishing to offer single sex sessions would have to cater for both, or remain unisex, but the principal is sound.

Bubblefett

I used to work in a gym that had a women only gym attached- it was essentially a big quiet room off the main gym floor with a selection of the general equipment.
The women who used it were generally overweight or older women who didn't want to feel embarased working out in front of all the young fit people. It was always a lovely room to go into, very encouraging atmosphere in it.
I used it because it was quiet and relaxed, no gym music pumping- you'd a tv that'd have talk shows/news/soaps on and you could plug in your own headphones.

Lapsed Catholic

Firekitten wrote: »

Rational and legal is the key here, 'tradition' doesn't really cut it, but then, theres plenty of apparently... 'valid' reasons blocking women still in some areas of society.

Golf.. aside from tradition, its hitting a ball around a field at its crux... both my boyfriend's parents play... his mum can't go when his dad does... I find that really quite silly, but thats a different topic.

Rational reasons... well, the same as toilets really. We have either, or unisex... same with changing rooms (with cubicles) and other such facilities... Gyms wishing to offer single sex sessions would have to cater for both, or remain unisex, but the principal is sound.

You want to segregate on rational and legal grounds and tradition doesn't cut it. You find it silly that you bfs mam can't play golf as the time as her husband, yet you want a gym that excludes her son on gender grounds? And all because some women are embarrassed by exercising with men. Where's the rational and legal basis for that?

southsiderosie

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

You want to segregate on rational and legal grounds and tradition doesn't cut it. You find it silly that you bfs mam can't play golf as the time as her husband, yet you want a gym that excludes her son on gender grounds? And all because some women are embarrassed by exercising with men. Where's the rational and legal basis for that?

If I owned a business where a huge potential pool of customers were put off by the gender dynamics of the gym, I would look to accomodate those fears, and offer classes/exercise space accordingly.

In one example, a friend of mine who is a personal trainer noticed that many of her male clients were interested in increasing their power and flexibility, but were wary of taking some of the yoga and fitness classes, which they saw as 'for girls'. So she started a class and re-branded it with some kind of raging, Rambo name, and men showed up in droves - even though she did the same kind of exercises she offered in the female-dominated classes.

Women-only gyms aren't about discrimination; they are about understanding gender dynamics around exercise and expanding market share.

Firekitten

I've yet to see a man be embarassed because he saw a woman playing golf...

Ok, I'll explain what I meant a little clearer... I think it was a bit vague imo, sorry.
While I support the idea of female only gyms, I, like Ickle Magoo feel there should be male only sessions too... While I like the idea , if there couldn't be a place for men, I'm not sure I'd feel right having that bias.

There are clear social and personal reasons for the sexes to do things separately in some cases. Exercise has proven to be an example where some (mostly women) don't feel comfortable in a mixed environment. The same may be the case for men, but far fewer speak out about it... so there's an imbalance in demand.
My personal opinion, is that a golf club's decision to not allow women to be members at all, is an example of a 'bad' tradition, Should they be forced to change it? I don't know, but there would be an uproar if men demanded entry to traditionally female only groups or societies... A lot of clubs dont let men and women play together, as I said earlier, in my fella's parent's case. However, in thier case, while the erm, whats the term? 'sessions?' are segregated, atleast the club in question happily caters to BOTH men and women...

I probably made a mess of explaining myself there, but I hope it clears up what I meant?

hollypink

Firekitten wrote: »

There are clear social and personal reasons for the sexes to do things separately in some cases. Exercise has proven to be an example where some (mostly women) don't feel comfortable in a mixed environment. The same may be the case for men, but far fewer speak out about it... so there's an imbalance in demand.

I disagree with the concept of women only gyms and I don't believe it is a good solution to the problem you're talking about (feeling uncomfortable and self conscious). Women aren't the only ones who can feel uncomfortable in a gym, some men feel that way too because women aren't the only ones who can be self conscious about their bodies. So why should we exercise separately from men? If you exercise outside (jogging, cycling, swimming etc.), you're going to being in a mixed environment anyway, so you're never going to exercise outside?

And where do you propose to draw the line? If I feel uncomfortable in the presence of younger women, will you have over thirties women only gyms? Or over forties? Or over fifties? And if I feel uncomfortable in the presence of women who aren't overweight? Gyms for women who are over forty and overweight? (I'm not far off forty and a bit overweight so I could be the target market :P )

I heard a piece on RTE radio last week about women in Israel in ultra Orthodox neighbourhoods having to sit at the back of the bus because those men (and women presumably) believe the sexes shouldnt mingle. It made me feel angry for a moment. http://edition.cnn.com/2011/12/19/world/meast/israel-rosa-parks/index.html And yet we're talking about segregating ourselves from men to exercise because of self-consciousness? It just seems like a step backwards.

LegacyUser

if i saw "ladies only " gym, wouldnt bother me.
our local small gym i've been saying i'm gonna start going since November and it hasnt happened, cos small town and small gym and unless get someone with me, couldnt deal with walking in there if all fellas in there working out, thats only for my confidence though.
I can see how people may think otherwise

Lia_lia

There is a gym in my town that has a section which is women's only. It has a curves style circuit and a little stretching area. Also has women's toilets and showers in there. It is sectioned off from the rest of the gym so men can't get in there. I this one in particular is a great idea for women who like this circuit-type thing.

I found it too, I dunno,easy? It seemed like it was for women who weren't really used to exercising and was a fun way to mix cardio/weights and provide a structured workout in a short timeframe. The stretching area was cool though. Stretching in a mixed gym usually causes unwanted leering

I think women-only gyms are good because they usually contain more women friendly machines. That's it really. In general I take no notice of anyone else at the gym, so the whole unisex thing doesn't bother me. But I don't find them sexist, I can see why they are often preferred. Wow, I just keep contradicting myself here.

pickarooney

Would it not make sense from a business point of view to have a section reserved for overweight or unfit people. I'd imagine, once you got past the ignominy of categorising yourself along with the undesirables, it would be nice to be able to work out without feeling like all the fit and fabulous people were looking down on you. Maybe call it a starter section or whatever.

Lapsed Catholic

pickarooney wrote: »

Would it not make sense from a business point of view to have a section reserved for overweight or unfit people. I'd imagine, once you got past the ignominy of categorising yourself along with the undesirables, it would be nice to be able to work out without feeling like all the fit and fabulous people were looking down on you. Maybe call it a starter section or whatever.

Why stop there. Why not a segregated area for people who can't afford/don't wear brand name gym wear? When they save up and get some they could join the masses with fear of being looked down on. Why not insist that women exercise in a burka, that way men won't be able to see them. Some people here should be posting in the personal issues thread. As a red blooded male I reserve the right to look admiringly at an attractive woman, whether that be in a bar, on a beach in a gym etc. Women also look admiringly at handsome men in the same places. I believe in equality for all not for some.

Laisurg

I disagree with this, everyone can be self conscious not just women, I doubt a 20 stone man would feel any better than an overweight woman.
I've never heard anything about some gyms being ''meat markets'' and to be honest if it was that common for men to make inappropriate and unwanted advances on woman in gyms I think there would be a bit of a fuss over it.

I don't see how women only gyms would help self conscious women all that much to make it worth it either, If they're self conscious about how they look then regardless at the end of the day someone will see them on the treadmill. (If they fell self conscious with a man watching why wouldn't they with a woman?)

Firekitten

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Why stop there. Why not a segregated area for people who can't afford/don't wear brand name gym wear? When they save up and get some they could join the masses with fear of being looked down on. Why not insist that women exercise in a burka, that way men won't be able to see them. Some people here should be posting in the personal issues thread. As a red blooded male I reserve the right to look admiringly at an attractive woman, whether that be in a bar, on a beach in a gym etc. Women also look admiringly at handsome men in the same places. I believe in equality for all not for some.

I go to a gym to work out... I don't go for you to stare at me as your 'right'... Perhaps unlike you I'm there to keep my fitness up, rather than pull.



Laisurg: its not so much a matter of they should or shouldn't exist, its that they do, (I know of at least 4 I've seen)

Personally not been to to a gym since I graduated in the summer, but it seemed different as it was the Uni gym... more like school somehow?
At the moment I just run along the river bank near where I live, and play sport which seems to fill my fitness quota. If i did go out and look for a gym to join, I'd PERSONALLY, atleast look for one that was either women only, or had a section or time slot that was single sex... As for posts in this topic being more appropriate to the personal issues thread... well possibly, but I raised the debate, and think other than the sexism point, its pretty much entirely ABOUT personal feelings and choices... which is key.

Lapsed Catholic

Firekitten wrote: »

I go to a gym to work out... I don't go for you to stare at me as your 'right'... Perhaps unlike you I'm there to keep my fitness up, rather than pull.

You may want to read my post again. I said look at, not stare. I have never stared at a woman. I don't go to "pull" either, how can I when all the women are under armed guard. I'm begining to agree with your bf.

Ickle Magoo

Actually, you said "look admiringly"...what exactly constitutes a "red-blooded male" (is there another sort?) looking admiringly?

whydoibother?

It's pretty hard to disagree with the fact that there are many women who are extremely self-conscious. Personally I think we need a massive cultural change, so that we are less affected by a sense of embarrassment or shame, which is essentially giving some of control over your life to randomers and deciding what you're going to do based on whether or not they like it. However, that's not going to happen anytime soon and it's clear that people exercising is better than not, so if it's the only way they'll go, let them have a women only gym.

Stench Blossoms

Lia_lia wrote: »

I think women-only gyms are good because they usually contain more women friendly machines. That's it really.

What are women friendly machines?

If it boiled down to me picking a mixed gym and a female gym I'd probably go for the mixed. I'd be pretty annoyed if there was a male only gym so don't want to give my business to the female only ones.

whydoibother?

I think it's true that there's more weights and stuff women might be less inclined to use (though not saying they can't) in a gym where a lot of the users are male. This can be at the expense of stuff women and men are both commonly interested in e.g. treadmills, exercise bikes etc.

Lapsed Catholic

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Actually, you said "look admiringly"...what exactly constitutes a "red-blooded male" (is there another sort?) looking admiringly?

Yes I did say look admiringly ie to look with approval.

There is a big difference between looking admiringly and staring.

Red blooded male ie vigorous or virile, especially in having strong heterosexual appetites (oxford dictionary)

I'm sure that homesexual males may well consider themselves to be red blooded (see, equality for all)

Why was the post at 16.03 removed?

hollypink

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Yes I did say look admiringly ie to look with approval.

There is a big difference between looking admiringly and staring.

Red blooded male ie vigorous or virile, especially in having strong heterosexual appetites (oxford dictionary)

I'm sure that homesexual males may well consider themselves to be red blooded (see, equality for all)

Why was the post at 16.03 removed?

You mean my post? If so I removed it because as Ickle Magoo pointed out you said 'looking admiringly' rather than 'looking' which I hadn't actually picked up when I posted.

smallBiscuit

whydoibother? wrote: »

It's pretty hard to disagree with the fact that there are many women who are extremely self-conscious. Personally I think we need a massive cultural change, so that we are less affected by a sense of embarrassment or shame, which is essentially giving some of control over your life to randomers and deciding what you're going to do based on whether or not they like it. However, that's not going to happen anytime soon and it's clear that people exercising is better than not, so if it's the only way they'll go, let them have a women only gym.

I think that men can also be very self conscious, so we should have a man only gym.

This thread is also going on in ah. As I said there, it is only right for a woman only gym, if there's a man only gym. Otherwise it's sexual discrimination.

I understand the whole ''uncomfortable with the leering stance'. But I'm a man, not a big muscled man (more of a wimpy man tbh) I feel very uncomfortable about people staring. But I deal with it. Or I don't go.

I saw some comments on women not allowed in golf clubs in a couple of responses here. If I remember my history right, the reason for that piece of bullsh*t was because men felt uncomfortable playing golf around women. What's the difference between men being uncomfortable around women so barring them and women being uncomfortable around men and barring them? Why is only one of them called sexist?


This woman only gym is not to equalize the sexes, it's to discriminate against men. Which then makes it ok for men to discriminate against women. Which completely invalidates feminism imho

Ickle Magoo

patobrien, posts deleted - do not post in this thread again.

whydoibother?

smallBiscuit wrote: »

I think that men can also be very self conscious, so we should have a man only gym.

This thread is also going on in ah. As I said there, it is only right for a woman only gym, if there's a man only gym. Otherwise it's sexual discrimination.

I understand the whole ''uncomfortable with the leering stance'. But I'm a man, not a big muscled man (more of a wimpy man tbh) I feel very uncomfortable about people staring. But I deal with it. Or I don't go.

I saw some comments on women not allowed in golf clubs in a couple of responses here. If I remember my history right, the reason for that piece of bullsh*t was because men felt uncomfortable playing golf around women. What's the difference between men being uncomfortable around women so barring them and women being uncomfortable around men and barring them? Why is only one of them called sexist?


This woman only gym is not to equalize the sexes, it's to discriminate against men. Which then makes it ok for men to discriminate against women. Which completely invalidates feminism imho

Well yeah, ok, have men only gyms too then. I think that's a fair argument.

I wouldn't accept that what Portmarnack Golf Club do is fair. Someone saying they're self-conscious while using a gym/swimming is fair enough, but playing golf? What next ... I'm self-conscious working in front of men, so can my boss please not hire any? While I do think the importance of promoting good health justifies it in relation to gyms, we would have to watch it imo.

Ickle Magoo

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Yes I did say look admiringly ie to look with approval.

There is a big difference between looking admiringly and staring.

Red blooded male ie vigorous or virile, especially in having strong heterosexual appetites (oxford dictionary)

I'm sure that homesexual males may well consider themselves to be red blooded (see, equality for all)

How quaintly archaic.

There is actually a very fine line between admiring looks and creeping a woman out - which I suspect, ironically enough, is a large part of the issue.

smallBiscuit wrote:

I think that men can also be very self conscious, so we should have a man only gym.

This thread is also going on in ah. As I said there, it is only right for a woman only gym, if there's a man only gym. Otherwise it's sexual discrimination.

I understand the whole ''uncomfortable with the leering stance'. But I'm a man, not a big muscled man (more of a wimpy man tbh) I feel very uncomfortable about people staring. But I deal with it. Or I don't go.

I saw some comments on women not allowed in golf clubs in a couple of responses here. If I remember my history right, the reason for that piece of bullsh*t was because men felt uncomfortable playing golf around women. What's the difference between men being uncomfortable around women so barring them and women being uncomfortable around men and barring them? Why is only one of them called sexist?


This woman only gym is not to equalize the sexes, it's to discriminate against men. Which then makes it ok for men to discriminate against women. Which completely invalidates feminism imho

And yet on this short thread alone women have both agreed that there should be men-only gyms/gym-rooms and disagreed that there should be single sex gyms at all so to come to the rather hysterical conclusion that it "completely invalidates feminism" is a nonsense.

I take it you are as vocal in your campaign for mixed toilets and changing rooms?

Lapsed Catholic

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

How quaintly archaic. Must be my age

There is actually a very fine line between admiring looks and creeping a woman out - which I suspect, ironically enough, is a large part of the issue.

I disagree. Looking at admiringly and being creepy are two entirely different things.

Ickle Magoo

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

I disagree. Looking at admiringly and being creepy are two entirely different things.

I suspect that not for the one doing the creeping/admiring to judge, no?

Lapsed Catholic

The time has obviously come to ban all contact between the sexes. We should live apart, reproduction will be of the artificial type only. We can all play golf and go to the gym without fear of contamination.

Ickle Magoo

Oh good, nothing like throwing out the old hysterical slippery slope fallacy when demanding your right to look admiringly at women. :pac:

howtomake

Women only sections & gyms usually have crappy equipment for what I want to do. I go to a gym where there are only like 5 females, the guys are actually quite respectful. Although we don't have our own steam room.

smallBiscuit

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

How quaintly archaic.

There is actually a very fine line between admiring looks and creeping a woman out - which I suspect, ironically enough, is a large part of the issue.

I'd agree with that and admit I find it hard to stop myself from looking at attractive women, Basically because I'm worried about being 'a perv', and fully aware how uncomfortable it would make me if the roles were reversed. Generally I'd try to turn around in some completely different direction or watch telly (my gym has one)

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And yet on this short thread alone women have both agreed that there should be men-only gyms/gym-rooms and disagreed that there should be single sex gyms at all so to come to the rather hysterical conclusion that it "completely invalidates feminism" is a nonsense.

Taken from here
"Feminism, as a movement, is about women living on equal terms with men--and not pushed down, by law or by culture, into a subservient role."

Now that means the reverse is also true, in order for women to live on equal terms with men, men must also live on equal terms with women.
If A=B, B must therefore = A

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I take it you are as vocal in your campaign for mixed toilets and changing rooms?

I've had that argument yes
But, only in the abstract. I think it would make me very uncomfortable, where I'd prefer not to go tbh.
The aquatic centre has it right I think. No separate Male/female sections just a bunch of individual stalls.

Lapsed Catholic

Not being hysterical, just trying to give women what they seem to want. Segregation.

That's twice you've accused posters of being hysterical. Perhaps you protest too much.

Firekitten

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

I disagree. Looking at admiringly and being creepy are two entirely different things.

erm, heh, ok then.

As for the argument invalidating feminism... I'd argue that the option of males and females to have individual spaces for exersise, OR the choice of mixed, is a true example of equality, catering for both sexes individually and equally. and to me that's more important than dragging out the name of feminism to muddy the waters.

Yes, having women only gyms could be considered sexist, gyms that were mixed offering women only sessions... perhaps too, but the ability to offer both? good... progress infact. Recognising that men AND women can feel bad about thier bodies means that we should do what we can to encourage BOTH to change for the better, perhaps when they felt better, then mixed conditions wouldnt bother them?

In the face of this, what's the likelyhood that when looking for a gym, I'd pick a women only gym? Yes, at this stage they exist, and perhaps its sexist, but I think I would if it had good facilities... perhaps that's bad of me, but if I'm honest, I think my self esteem point CAN be a moot point, as if one is self consious enough to not want to exersise at a gym for fear of others seeing them, well... its going to be equally bad being around physically fitter members of the same sex.

Last point, this might be niave of me, but are there any men only gyms left? and to any male readers of this, would you feel more comfortable not having women checking YOU out while you exercise?

Ickle Magoo

smallBiscuit wrote: »

Taken from here
"Feminism, as a movement, is about women living on equal terms with men--and not pushed down, by law or by culture, into a subservient role."

Now that means the reverse is also true, in order for women to live on equal terms with men, men must also live on equal terms with women.
If A=B, B must therefore = A

I've already pointed out the varying views in this thread alone. Are you suggesting every woman, any woman who considers themselves a feminist wants women-only gyms to exist and no men-only gyms to exist? Do you think Curves is owned by "the feminist movement"...I'm not seeing the correlation with feminism here...it's a popular preference for many reasons (some highlighted by attitudes shown in this thread already) that businesses have cashed in on.

smallBiscuit wrote: »

I've had that argument yes
But, only in the abstract. I think it would make me very uncomfortable, where I'd prefer not to go tbh.
The aquatic centre has it right I think. No separate Male/female sections just a bunch of individual stalls.

"it would make me very uncomfortable, where I'd prefer not to go tbh. " which in a nutshell, I reckon covers why some women choose women-only gyms over mixed and thus it became a business venture worth pursuing.

Imagine if a group of people started demanding you have no right to the kind of toilet you like, sure we all pee and poo and what's the big deal - you should be made to be uncomfortable and go to mixed, anything else is a sexist disgrace? Silly, isn't it. :P

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Not being hysterical, just trying to give women what they seem to want. Segregation.

That's twice you've accused posters of being hysterical. Perhaps you protest too much.

Or perhaps there are a lot of strawmen and hysterics being put forward?

Yeah, "women" want segregation - across the board, all of them....more exaggeration - and given the answers on the thread so far deliberately obtuse and disingenuous to boot...little point in discussing an issue with you if you are going to resort to such childish tactics.

atila

Never let commen sense get in the way when there is something to be argued! 99.8% of the population wouldnt bat an eyelid at the idea of a women only gym.

I sense that some posters are getting at the fact that mountains have been made of molehills before on issues and that it would be interesting to know if conistancy would be maintained by people vocal on such issues..

I remember meeting a particularly militant person I came across who insisted that "she/he" should always alternate with "he/she" in communication - it was petty, annoying and ridiculous so much so that I would get a tickle from seeing the mental gyrations this person would go through on such a non issue.

smallBiscuit

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've already pointed out the varying views in this thread alone. Are you suggesting every woman, any woman who considers themselves a feminist wants women-only gyms to exist and no men-only gyms to exist? Do you think Curves is owned by "the feminist movement"

Is Curves women only?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Imagine if a group of people started demanding you have no right to the kind of toilet you like, sure we all pee and poo and what's the big deal - you should be made to be uncomfortable and go to mixed, anything else is a sexist disgrace? Silly, isn't it. :P

Ok, I don't think we're disagreeing in principle. But I think if you want women only, you must also have men only. Because there are men who feel self conscious about women watching them (which they do, albeit not as much)
Otherwise it is definitely sexist. (if Curves is women only, that's also sexist)
A quote from Animal Farm comes to mind. (the book, not that movie )
At the start of the book
"All animals are equal"
At the End
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

That is what I meant by invalidating feminism, my view (perhaps wrongly) is that feminism is about equality, not inequality in the other direction

Ickle Magoo

smallBiscuit wrote: »

Is Curves women only?

Yeah, think so.

smallBiscuit wrote: »

Ok, I don't think we're disagreeing in principle. But I think if you want women only, you must also have men only. Because there are men who feel self conscious about women watching them (which they do, albeit not as much)
Otherwise it is definitely sexist. (if Curves is women only, that's also sexist)
A quote from Animal Farm comes to mind. (the book, not that movie )
At the start of the book
"All animals are equal"
At the End
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

That is what I meant by invalidating feminism, my view (perhaps wrongly) is that feminism is about equality, not inequality in the other direction

I don't think we're disagreeing at all - if you read my first post on the thread...I'm just confused as to what you think business people supplying for a clear demand which has, I assume, really only come from one gender has to do with feminism? If men want men only gyms then create a demand for them, businesses aren't set up just in the interest of gender fairness!

Firekitten

not to speak for Ickle Magoo, but they did say at the start of the thread that if there were women only times or spaces, men should have the same..

Lapsed Catholic

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yeah, "women" want segregation - across the board, all of them....more exaggeration - and given the answers on the thread so far deliberately obtuse and disingenuous to boot...little point in discussing an issue with you if you are going to resort to such childish tactics.

Ah the old attack the response to discredit it ploy. I believe, obviously wrongly, that my post was sarcastic not hysteric. Before you accuse posters of being hysterical and childish you should perhaps examine your own contributions to the discussion.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I'd say its mostly women don't want to be leered at when they're in skimpy clothes doing things like stretching and bending down etc. Don't blame them.

I read a good piece here about sexuality and fear - and basically why cat calls tend to be a lot more intimidating for women than men. I think this may play into it.

Guys generally don't care about girls leering at them so there's never going to be much demand for a male only gym. Indeed the number of men who would prefer a male only gym for that reason would likely be far outweighed by the number of men who like women being around whilst they train.

smallBiscuit

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think we're disagreeing at all - if you read my first post on the thread...I'm just confused as to what you think business people supplying for a clear demand which has, I assume, really only come from one gender has to do with feminism? If men want men only gyms then create a demand for them, businesses aren't set up just in the interest of gender fairness!

O,k I'm going to respond in a way which reminds me a lot of the life of brian

Lets agree in principal that women, or men, only gyms are a terrible sexist idea. While at the same time admitting that they make good business sense, and do exist

InTheTrees

As a male frequenter of a gym I think its entirely appropriate for women to have their own gyms. Given what I've seen from some of my male gym colleagues I can only imagine how awkward it must be sometimes for a woman in a mixed gym.

It can only be the more unconscious and unaware of males that would consider it negatively "sexist". And I dont think men need their own gyms to balance it up.

Firekitten

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Ah the old attack the response to discredit it ploy. I believe, obviously wrongly, that my post was sarcastic not hysteric. Before you accuse posters of being hysterical and childish you should perhaps examine your own contributions to the discussion.

To be fair, I'm a fairly sarcastic person, and I've learned not to do it online because it can be completely misinterpreted and taken the wrong way. So its not too far fetched that she go the wrong end of the stick.

smallBiscuit

InTheTrees wrote: »

As a male frequenter of a gym I think its entirely appropriate for women to have their own gyms. Given what I've seen from some of my male gym colleagues I can only imagine how awkward it must be sometimes for a woman in a mixed gym.

It can only be the more unconscious and unaware of males that would consider it negatively "sexist". And I dont think men need their own gyms to balance it up.

Ok, the gym I infrequent is a company gym, so I never see that. Maybe a bit of name and shame is needed? or a good kick in the arse?

Ickle Magoo

smallBiscuit wrote: »

O,k I'm going to respond in a way which reminds me a lot of the life of brian

Lets agree in principal that women, or men, only gyms are a terrible sexist idea. While at the same time admitting that they make good business sense, and do exist

I don't agree that they are terrible sexist idea though - any more than I think women's changing rooms, or women's toilets are a terrible sexist idea.

I guess ultimately folks can choose to believe they exist due to some hateful generic wish to discriminate against men en masse or they can acknowledge (as BoS, InTheTrees, etc have pointed out above), there are some very valid reasons why they are popular with some. On top of that, as there is nothing stopping men from having men-only gyms and mixed gyms do still exist, there seems to be little point, logically or fiscally, in purposefully denying a choice.

enfant terrible

Firekitten wrote: »

In the face of this, what's the likelyhood that when looking for a gym, I'd pick a women only gym? Yes, at this stage they exist, and perhaps its sexist, but I think I would if it had good facilities... perhaps that's bad of me, but if I'm honest, I think my self esteem point CAN be a moot point, as if one is self consious enough to not want to exersise at a gym for fear of others seeing them, well... its going to be equally bad being around physically fitter members of the same sex.

If a man chose a male only golf club would you consider him sexiest? if he chose it for the same reasons you chose your female only gym?

johnners2981

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't agree that they are terrible sexist idea though - any more than I think women's changing rooms, or women's toilets are a terrible sexist idea.

I guess ultimately folks can choose to believe they exist due to some hateful generic wish to discriminate against men en masse or they can acknowledge (as BoS, InTheTrees, etc have pointed out above), there are some very valid reasons why they are popular with some. On top of that, as there is nothing stopping men from having men-only gyms and mixed gyms do still exist, there seems to be little point, logically or fiscally, in purposefully denying a choice.

Are there any male only gyms? Not that I'm aware of, maybe power lifting gyms are male dominated but I doubt they'd turn any serious female weight lifter away.

If something is male only it'll be heavily criticized, it's quite hypocritical in my view

panda100

I'm a member of Westwood in Clontarf, and I have to admit I find the gym so, so refreshing because there is a healthy mix of male and females in all the classes. I think its great to see lots of guys doing the body toning classes, which I would never have seen in the other gyms I was a member of.

I can understand why some women feel self concious in the gym.I always feel really concious when I go swimming in UL, as there is always teens shouting out comments about how you look.However, I think the way forward is not segregation but putting the emphasis on exercising for health, and not to look better in a bikini. The only segregation that should happend in swimming pools and gyms is kids and adults!