Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Faugheen · 25-01-2021 5:16pm

Those saying Coombes can feel hard done by.

Who exactly out of that list of back rows do you drop instead of him?

It’s not his fault but to imply there has been some injustice by not being called up is a bit much. His chance will come if he keeps going the way he is.

I’m going to go out on a whim here, and it’s going to be controversial to some, but in my opinion Casey does not deserve a spot over McGrath or Cooney.

No doubting his ability and talent, but the other two have performed better in higher quality games in my opinion.

aloooof · 25-01-2021 5:23pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I suppose Farrell wants to stay with the "tried and tested". But the experience factor hasn't made an iota of difference these last 2 seasons.
Our focus should be on the future. I don't think wholesale changes are needed. Incremental would be fine.

To be fair to Farrell, I think that's exactly what he's done. He gave 11 players their debut in the last calendar year. I count 8 of them still in the squad, with a further 2 uncapped players now called up also.

Dubinusa · 25-01-2021 5:29pm

aloooof wrote: »

To be fair to Farrell, I think that's exactly what he's done. He gave 11 players their debut in the last calendar year. I count 8 of them still in the squad, with a further 2 uncapped players now called up also.

True enough. But I think Healy is extremely lucky. I think his selection is the safe option. Kilcoyne will probably be the starter by round 3. Healy just doesn't have the physicality anymore. That's why I would have preferred EOS. Connors also is lucky. I don't think he deserved his inclusion.

UAEguy2020 · 25-01-2021 5:40pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I suppose Farrell wants to stay with the "tried and tested". But the experience factor hasn't made an iota of difference these last 2 seasons.
Our focus should be on the future. I don't think wholesale changes are needed. Incremental would be fine.
EOS playing in the 6nations would imo, get up the experience needed. There's nothing to learn with Kilcoyne and Healy.
POM and Ruddock will not be at the next world cup so, why not bring in Coombes? I would have liked to see a back row of Coombes
VDF
Doris.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. On form alone the b/r should be Ruddock/ POM and Doris.
While I think that Murray has been better, still believe Cooney has been better.

Because the players haven’t necessarily been the main issue, the main issue has been countless unforced errors at key moments such as a misfiring lineout, consistent knock on’s, poor defense at key points. With issue’s like this what matters more than ever is continuity and fine tuning certain things, simply adding new players here or there isn’t going to magically fix these problems and if anything it adds another potential problem. The main focus needs to be cutting out the stupid penalties, fix the lineout and get the back field defense sorted which can all be done with more time on the training field

Get all that sorted, build some confidence and then we can start throwing more youngsters in who will then thrive on that confidence and help them settle faster to test rugby, just throwing them in Willy Nilly now and telling them to sink or swim is very risky and a risk not worth taking right now as we have other big issues that need to be solved first and foremost.

EachSmallChime · 25-01-2021 5:44pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

So what's the solution? We've had guys like Cooney, McGrath and Marmion hanging around for yonks and none of them have made the step up. What makes you think this is the time they're going to do it? They won't, let's move on.

This logic absolutely applies for outhalves where a number of players have been given opportunities with mixed results.

But not with scrum halves. In form players for all four provinces are ripping it up at the highest level with no opportunity to lay a claim on the Ireland 9 jersey for years now.

VayNiice · 25-01-2021 6:41pm

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

There is definitely an element of it being easier to get selected if you play in blue and it frustrates people no end.

Hold on a second there!

What about in 2019 and 2020 when Murray, POM and Stander were playing like muck and were never dropped?

What about Kleyn being parachuted in ahead of others for the WC and playing rubbish.

What about Casey being picked ahead of Cooney, Marmion and Mcgrath?

How about Kilcoyne who hasn't being playing lately being picked ahead of O'sullivan.

This idea of a leinster bias in the coaching team is horse ****. Maybe the fact that their players win trophies has more to do with it than the colour of the Jersey.

Former Former Former · 25-01-2021 6:53pm

mfceiling wrote: »

I don't buy this and never did.

Here's a game against the weakest of the November teams and you can have the last 6 minutes against Scotland.

You haven't made the step up....your rival hasn't played well for 12 - 18 months but could turn it around in the next game...or the one after that...or the one after that.
Meanwhile you tear it up for your province and who knows you might sneak a whole 15 minutes against Wales or France.

I don't buy this and I never did.

Yeah, there are lots of players who get 15 minutes against Scotland and a start against Georgia and have to be happy with that. And there are other, better players who get a start against Scotland and continue to start because they improve the team.

Those in the former group are just not really that good. If they were, they'd be in the latter. It's that simple.

Plenty of people here upset about Marmion or Cooney because Murray is shyte. Even if you think Murray is shyte, that doesn't explain why these lads have been stepped over for JGP and Casey. That can only be explained by the fact that the coaches don't rate them, even as backups. Cooney is 30. Marmion is 29 in a couple of weeks, they're as good as they're ever going to be and it's time to move on.

Likewise Carty didn't lose out to Sexton, he lost out to Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. That's the context of these selections. If a guy can't convince the coaches that he's better than the deeply medium Ross Byrne, then he ain't no international.

Edit; even the fact that none of these guys can really claim the back-up shirt says a lot. Like, Furlong was immovable at 3 - but it didn't take Andrew Porter long to shake off John Ryan and Bealham to become the backup - because he's test quality and the others are not.

Dual wheels · 25-01-2021 7:06pm

I don’t get the addition of billy burns, I don’t see how he’s any better than Byrne carty or even hanrahan, if he was good enough for international rugby he would have been in the England elite squad, are we that far off England now that we have lads on the granny rule?

VayNiice · 25-01-2021 7:44pm

Very underwhelming squad.

I don't understand the logic of picking Casey and not selecting Coombes, Baird, Healy or H Byrne for the wider squad.
I understand that Casey has potential but including Murray and GP I can think of 6 scrum halves who I'd rather have coming off the bench early after and injury to whoever is starting.

Not selecting Eric O'Sullivan is baffling also. Our other too LH won't be around for the next WC, surely we need to be getting him involved at least in the wider squad?

Locke_Lamora · 25-01-2021 8:29pm

Dual wheels wrote: »

I don’t get the addition of billy burns, I don’t see how he’s any better than Byrne carty or even hanrahan, if he was good enough for international rugby he would have been in the England elite squad, are we that far off England now that we have lads on the granny rule?

Which one of Byrne, Carty or Hanrahan would've made the England Squad if they were qualified? Burns has holes in his game but he's most definitely better than Hanrahan. I'd argue he's better than the other two but they both have arguments going for them.

Paul Smeenus · 25-01-2021 8:39pm

Dual wheels wrote: »

I don’t get the addition of billy burns, I don’t see how he’s any better than Byrne carty or even hanrahan, if he was good enough for international rugby he would have been in the England elite squad, are we that far off England now that we have lads on the granny rule?

If he was good enough for international rugby, Stander/Lowe/Gibson-Park would have been in the South Africa/New Zealand wider squad etc etc

Burns is better than than all three of the other OHs you mention. If you don't like him cause he's English, have at it, but don't pretend it's for rugby reasons.

sydthebeat · 25-01-2021 8:49pm

Dual wheels wrote: »

I don’t get the addition of billy burns, I don’t see how he’s any better than Byrne carty or even hanrahan, if he was good enough for international rugby he would have been in the England elite squad, are we that far off England now that we have lads on the granny rule?

Yawn...

He's better than the other options, suck it up.

BENDYBINN · 25-01-2021 9:27pm

No jack Carty? Damn you Dessie farrell......

ElisaAtWar · 26-01-2021 1:04am

The only team that consistently lives in the past is ourselves. It's hard to reconsile. But once you accept this croc of shyte as your croc of shyte then all is good. Do I believe steps have been made, well the truth is I do not. Our team is a joke. We have no leadership, we have no concepts of what we might deliver. We are in a place where Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have put us. No ideas. Just nothingness. Much like the leinster Munster game last weekend just nothingness. And I don't debate the inclusions of folks like Doris or Beirne, the problem is the same stale players time and again

UAEguy2020 · 26-01-2021 1:45am

Does anyone have anything positive to say about anything?

Lost Ormond · 26-01-2021 1:52am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

The only team that consistently lives in the past is ourselves. It's hard to reconsile. But once you accept this croc of shyte as your croc of shyte then all is good. Do I believe steps have been made, well the truth is I do not. Our team is a joke. We have no leadership, we have no concepts of what we might deliver. We are in a place where Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have put us. No ideas. Just nothingness. Much like the leinster Munster game last weekend just nothingness. And I don't debate the inclusions of folks like Doris or Beirne, the problem is the same stale players time and again

How negative can you be!
What players then are so much better than the so called stale players that are used over and over?
What exactly are we meant to be delivering/levels reached?
Who different would you pick to totally change how Ireland do?

Like i would have one of the Connacht 9s involved.

Dual wheels · 26-01-2021 2:14am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If he was good enough for international rugby, Stander/Lowe/Gibson-Park would have been in the South Africa/New Zealand wider squad etc etc

Burns is better than than all three of the other OHs you mention. If you don't like him cause he's English, have at it, but don't pretend it's for rugby reasons.

Go to bed, burns couldn’t even hack it at bath never mind England, Byrne has the ability to be a world class 10, he needs to be developed, nothing to be gained from bringing in burns

CowboyTed · 26-01-2021 3:23am

Former Former Former wrote: »

So what's the solution? We've had guys like Cooney, McGrath and Marmion hanging around for yonks and none of them have made the step up. What makes you think this is the time they're going to do it? They won't, let's move on.

JGP and McGrath share the starts in the big games. I don't think it's clear who is first choice but I don't think it really matters here tbh. And if we're serious about building for the next RWC, then we need young guys with potential like Casey at least in the squad.

At out-half, well, there's Sexton and the next two best options. If they can overtake him, then they will. Farrell isn't blind to Sexton's issues and he's not going to keep picking him when there are better options available. Right now though, there aren't.

Marmion has stared 7 games for Ireland.

In those 7 games, Ireland beat New Zealand, England(might have been MOM) and Wales while No. 1 in the world....
And that doesn't take into account playing a full half as winger (doesn't get you selection as SH but very impressive)

How is beating New Zealand not making the step up? Who do you have to beat for the step up?

Marmion has been hard done by... He brings a different dynamic to the game than Murray.

Cooney never really got a real shot in all fairness, he had a lot less game time...

sydthebeat · 26-01-2021 9:02am

I see the usual miserable ghouls that gather around six nations time are flocking back again.

Paul Smeenus · 26-01-2021 9:41am

Dual wheels wrote: »

Go to bed, burns couldn’t even hack it at bath never mind England, Byrne has the ability to be a world class 10, he needs to be developed, nothing to be gained from bringing in burns

There's really some industrial strength confusion in evidence on the forum at the moment.

I mean, not about the finer points of top level OH play, but about stuff like "which Burns player is in the squad, the one playing in Ulster or the one playing in japan?" and "how does this whole "time of day" work?"

sydthebeat · 26-01-2021 9:52am

Dual wheels wrote: »

Go to bed, burns couldn’t even hack it at bath never mind England, Byrne has the ability to be a world class 10, he needs to be developed, nothing to be gained from bringing in burns

Not enough face palm memes in the world.......

irelandrover · 26-01-2021 9:54am

At this stage I'd say Harry Bryne is behind Sexton, Ross, Ben Healy, and Billy Burns.

Burns, Ross and Sexton are a level above him at the moment. Healy and him are roughly the same level but Healy is playing regularly for his province and has shown he can do it in the bigger games as well.

bennyl10 · 26-01-2021 9:58am

Dubinusa wrote: »

I suppose Farrell wants to stay with the "tried and tested". But the experience factor hasn't made an iota of difference these last 2 seasons.
Our focus should be on the future. I don't think wholesale changes are needed. Incremental would be fine.
EOS playing in the 6nations would imo, get up the experience needed. There's nothing to learn with Kilcoyne and Healy.
POM and Ruddock will not be at the next world cup so, why not bring in Coombes? I would have liked to see a back row of Coombes
VDF
Doris.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. On form alone the b/r should be Ruddock/ POM and Doris.
While I think that Murray has been better, still believe Cooney has been better.

Dropping CJ from the starting XV is insanity

He’s been the most consistent player in green, and continuously performs for Munster

He’s 100% above Ruddock at the moment

aloooof · 26-01-2021 10:00am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

The only team that consistently lives in the past is ourselves. It's hard to reconsile. But once you accept this croc of shyte as your croc of shyte then all is good. Do I believe steps have been made, well the truth is I do not. Our team is a joke. We have no leadership, we have no concepts of what we might deliver. We are in a place where Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have put us. No ideas. Just nothingness. Much like the leinster Munster game last weekend just nothingness. And I don't debate the inclusions of folks like Doris or Beirne, the problem is the same stale players time and again

I like Beckett as much as the next man, but you've told us very few actual specifics about 1) what you think we're doing wrong and 2) what you think we should be doing instead.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-01-2021 10:07am

Dubinusa wrote: »

True enough. But I think Healy is extremely lucky. I think his selection is the safe option. Kilcoyne will probably be the starter by round 3. Healy just doesn't have the physicality anymore. That's why I would have preferred EOS. Connors also is lucky. I don't think he deserved his inclusion.

It feels like a selection that has to be made by injury. I can see EOS being brought in due to an injury to Healy or Kilcoyne and stealing the show or at least securing his place as the bench option. Seems like madness to not include him in the squad.

Buer · 26-01-2021 10:21am

Dubinusa wrote: »

True enough. But I think Healy is extremely lucky. I think his selection is the safe option. Kilcoyne will probably be the starter by round 3. Healy just doesn't have the physicality anymore. That's why I would have preferred EOS. Connors also is lucky. I don't think he deserved his inclusion.

I haven't seen his name mentioned anywhere but Jordi Murphy has been playing brilliantly for Ulster in recent times. He was a one man back row in Dublin a few weeks ago. More carries than any forward on the pitch, 20 tackles made with none missed, won a big penalty on the deck in the first half and was generally everywhere.

In his last showing before that against Connacht, it was the same story. MOTM award with most carries and tackles and a couple of turnovers on the deck.

I think he's fairly hard done by to be behind Connors who has barely played aside from the weekend and being part of an underperforming pack that was beaten by Connacht.

Paul Smeenus · 26-01-2021 10:48am

Buer wrote: »

I haven't seen his name mentioned anywhere but Jordi Murphy has been playing brilliantly for Ulster in recent times. He was a one man back row in Dublin a few weeks ago. More carries than any forward on the pitch, 20 tackles made with none missed, won a big penalty on the deck in the first half and was generally everywhere.

In his last showing before that against Connacht, it was the same story. MOTM award with most carries and tackles and a couple of turnovers on the deck.

I think he's fairly hard done by to be behind Connors who has barely played aside from the weekend and being part of an underperforming pack that was beaten by Connacht.

As an avid Ulsterfan, I was absolutely delighted with those two performances by Jordi, but those came out of nowhere. He hasn't been great this season generally. He wouldn't be in the first choice Ulster backrow.

26-01-2021 10:51am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

The only team that consistently lives in the past is ourselves. It's hard to reconsile. But once you accept this croc of shyte as your croc of shyte then all is good. Do I believe steps have been made, well the truth is I do not. Our team is a joke. We have no leadership, we have no concepts of what we might deliver. We are in a place where Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have put us. No ideas. Just nothingness. Much like the leinster Munster game last weekend just nothingness. And I don't debate the inclusions of folks like Doris or Beirne, the problem is the same stale players time and again

We have four professional clubs to choose from. England, France, NZ etc have dozens to choose form. We're never gonna be able to make wholesale changes like they can.

UAEguy2020 · 26-01-2021 11:55am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We have four professional clubs to choose from. England, France, NZ etc have dozens to choose form. We're never gonna be able to make wholesale changes like they can.

NZ have 5

Can we not go down this inferiority rabbit hole again, this is a large part of the reason we get knocked out in the QF every World Cup.

b.gud · 26-01-2021 12:01pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

NZ have 5

I was going to make the same point but them realized that there is also the mitre 10 cup which is also fully professional and acts as a functioning feeder system to the 5 top level super rugby teams.

Compare to our AIL which is semi-pro at best and realistically have little or no pathway to the 4 senior teams

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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