organic farming

Mooooo · 06-12-2018 1:15pm

What stocking rate is allowed and what can you grow without fert? I assume a lot of clover required in awards so grazing in wet conditions becomes difficult along with weed control. Have to look at it in what you can produce and get in payments versus conventional

Markcheese · 06-12-2018 3:01pm

_Brian wrote: »

I wouldn’t think €300 of a premium would cover the extra cost of production

Depends on your system.. If theyre largely finished off grass or decent silage, and the housing situation isn't too tricky then it's probably better than conventional..

orchard farm · 06-12-2018 6:35pm

Mooooo wrote: »

What stocking rate is allowed and what can you grow without fert? I assume a lot of clover required in awards so grazing in wet conditions becomes difficult along with weed control. Have to look at it in what you can produce and get in payments versus conventional

Min 0.5 per ha.clover rich swards ideally.can use fym,slurry also depending on soil test results lime,rock phosphate etc. Chemical nitrogen is not allowed ever!!

Mooooo · 06-12-2018 7:14pm

orchard farm wrote: »

Min 0.5 per ha.clover rich swards ideally.can use fym,slurry also depending on soil test results lime,rock phosphate etc. Chemical nitrogen is not allowed ever!!

What's the max stocking rate? Or is there one? At the end of the day it still boils down to how much grass you can grow to feed the stock. If that's looked at first then look at any schemes etc as they may change and then you can judge it against conventional on its financial returns

orchard farm · 06-12-2018 7:58pm

Mooooo wrote: »

What's the max stocking rate? Or is there one? At the end of the day it still boils down to how much grass you can grow to feed the stock. If that's looked at first then look at any schemes etc as they may change and then you can judge it against conventional on its financial returns

No max stock rate but min shed space m2 per animals is higher so I guess stock rate will depend on size of sheds with lye backs,amount of feed your farm can produce etc.intencive high stocking farms do tend to reduce while extensive farms round here in northwest find it hard to get to min stocking rate

tractorporn · 07-12-2018 12:39am

Mooooo wrote: »

What's the max stocking rate? Or is there one? At the end of the day it still boils down to how much grass you can grow to feed the stock. If that's looked at first then look at any schemes etc as they may change and then you can judge it against conventional on its financial returns

There is no max stocking rate as such but you are limited to the 170kgsN/Ha nitrates limit and organic farmers can't get a derogation. The lads on the teagasc farm walks where they are measuring said that after the initial shock of the first year or two growth would only be 20/25% behind where they were before they joined. But it's hard to judge as some would have been reducing their fertiliser use as they started thinking about converting.

davidk1394 · 07-12-2018 10:16am

A neighbor of mine is an organic dairy farmer and my uncle is an organic beef farmer but was doing tillage. IOFGA and organic trust are on the look out for tillage farmers and dairy farmers to convert to organic as there is a demand for the product.
On the beef side there is a saturation of the market already. The main company selling organic beef and lamb is ABP under the name of the Good Herdsman. My uncle has to book in cattle the day he buys them in the mart. He reckons his going to loose his shirt on cattle this year. Very little price difference at the moment between conventional organic beef.

wrangler · 07-12-2018 10:28am

davidk1394 wrote: »

A neighbor of mine is an organic dairy farmer and my uncle is an organic beef farmer but was doing tillage. IOFGA and organic trust are on the look out for tillage farmers and dairy farmers to convert to organic as there is a demand for the product.
On the beef side there is a saturation of the market already. The main company selling organic beef and lamb is ABP under the name of the Good Herdsman. My uncle has to book in cattle the day he buys them in the mart. He reckons his going to loose his shirt on cattle this year. Very little price difference at the moment between conventional organic beef.

Good trade for lambs this year, but has been abysmal in the past, Camolin are the only factory taking them, a lot of them come through our group, some guys really do a great job on them, really good lambs

148multi · 07-12-2018 3:33pm

wrangler wrote: »

Good trade for lambs this year, but has been abysmal in the past, Camolin are the only factory taking them, a lot of them come through our group, some guys really do a great job on them, really good lambs

Dawn in ballyhaunis are taking organic lamb this year, haven't dealt with them.

Willfarman · 07-12-2018 7:29pm

davidk1394 wrote: »

A neighbor of mine is an organic dairy farmer and my uncle is an organic beef farmer but was doing tillage. IOFGA and organic trust are on the look out for tillage farmers and dairy farmers to convert to organic as there is a demand for the product.
On the beef side there is a saturation of the market already. The main company selling organic beef and lamb is ABP under the name of the Good Herdsman. My uncle has to book in cattle the day he buys them in the mart. He reckons his going to loose his shirt on cattle this year. Very little price difference at the moment between conventional organic beef.

A lot of conventional farmers lost money this year. The extensive low stocked systems fared the best around here.

Water John · 07-12-2018 8:54pm

davidk know you are going dairying, from the other thread. I think you said you wouldn't go organic. Just wondering would you still consider it?
What sort of price premium would be needed, 20%+?

kowtow · 13-12-2018 5:01pm

Does anybody know what the options are for collection of organic milk? Is there anyone collecting in Cork?

manjou · 13-12-2018 5:15pm

kowtow wrote: »

Does anybody know what the options are for collection of organic milk? Is there anyone collecting in Cork?

dont know but if you ring either organic trust or the irish organic association they might know.

roosterman71 · 13-12-2018 6:04pm

Interesting study on the climate effects of organic farming vs. conventional
You might want to think twice when buying organic, new study claims
Assessing the efficiency of changes in land use for mitigating climate change (need a subscription to read the study in full)

tractorporn · 13-12-2018 7:14pm

kowtow wrote: »

Does anybody know what the options are for collection of organic milk? Is there anyone collecting in Cork?

The little milk company collect milk from lads in Cork but not sure if they're taking any more milk. I know Glensik have collected milk in Cork before but not sure if they still go down that far anymore.

The Aherns are big organic dairy farmers in Cork the son took over the farmers journal Snapchat yesterday

Earnshaw · 14-12-2018 2:19pm

Can anyone point me in the direction of the entry requirements for this scheme?

Water John · 14-12-2018 2:24pm

Here
http://www.irishorganicassociation.ie/general/organic-farming-scheme-opens-19th-november-until-19th-december-2018/

tractorporn · 14-12-2018 2:41pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

Can anyone point me in the direction of the entry requirements for this scheme?

The marking system is in the terms and conditions of the scheme. You can get the terms and conditions on the department website.

Dairy gets 45 marks, tillage 50 and hort 50, beef gets 10 marks sheep get home. There are extra points for for livestock and small areas of cereals or Hort and for size. The max points anyone can get is 120.

Earnshaw · 14-12-2018 6:00pm

tractorporn wrote: »

The marking system is in the terms and conditions of the scheme. You can get the terms and conditions on the department website.

Dairy gets 45 marks, tillage 50 and hort 50, beef gets 10 marks sheep get home. There are extra points for for livestock and small areas of cereals or Hort and for size. The max points anyone can get is 120.

Sheep get none.

The min you need is 25 points I believe?

So if I was a beef farmer I could put 15 hectares into the scheme - that's 10 points for beef plus 15 points for each hectare...? Am I correct in saying that?

See attached image for ranking and selection criteria...

endainoz · 14-12-2018 6:51pm

I'm going to apply anyways, from a beef point of view it seems difficult but I reckon I'll cover admin and course costs for 2019 by not buying chemical fert. The application is a fair amount to cover but nothing most people couldn't do themselves. I think its worth the risk myself, seen as beef is in a bad way, this would be a great help!

Earnshaw · 14-12-2018 7:18pm

In the same boat as you endainoz

Are you getting an 'organic specialist' to draw up a conversion plan? This is regarding the license with the Irish Organic Association (section 6)...

Buford T. Justice XIX · 14-12-2018 7:26pm

endainoz wrote: »

I'm going to apply anyways, from a beef point of view it seems difficult but I reckon I'll cover admin and course costs for 2019 by not buying chemical fert. The application is a fair amount to cover but nothing most people couldn't do themselves. I think its worth the risk myself, seen as beef is in a bad way, this would be a great help!

Just be aware that over 25% of organic beef and lamb is sold into the conventional market.

endainoz · 14-12-2018 7:43pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote:

Just be aware that over 25% of organic beef and lamb is sold into the conventional market.

Thanks for the heads up, but honestly it's the premiums that make it an attractive prospect.

endainoz · 14-12-2018 7:45pm

Earnshaw wrote:

Are you getting an 'organic specialist' to draw up a conversion plan? This is regarding the license with the Irish Organic Association (section 6)...

I've gone with organic trust, supposed to be better. Had heard of a guy around here going with them as he wasn't satisfied with IOA. I've done most of the application myself already.

tractorporn · 14-12-2018 9:11pm

endainoz wrote: »

I've gone with organic trust, supposed to be better. Had heard of a guy around here going with them as he wasn't satisfied with IOA. I've done most of the application myself already.

There absolutely zero difference between the two crowds both are working out of the same set of standards

tractorporn · 14-12-2018 9:13pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

In the same boat as you endainoz

Are you getting an 'organic specialist' to draw up a conversion plan? This is regarding the license with the Irish Organic Association (section 6)...

There's no need to get anyone to do your conversion plan, it's definitely something you can do yourself

manjou · 14-12-2018 9:31pm

endainoz wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up, but honestly it's the premiums that make it an attractive prospect.

once you become organic you have to TRY and sell organic and this could become stricter going forward to try and stop people just going in for premiums

tractorporn · 14-12-2018 9:35pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

Sheep get none.

The min you need is 25 points I believe?

So if I was a beef farmer I could put 15 hectares into the scheme - that's 10 points for beef plus 15 points for each hectare...? Am I correct in saying that?

See attached image for ranking and selection criteria...

Yeah plus 10 points for full conversion

manjou · 14-12-2018 9:44pm

tractorporn wrote: »

There's no need to get anyone to do your conversion plan, it's definitely something you can do yourself

done plan myself when i joined not to hard . most important are housing and health plan because housing will have to be right by next winter so all sheds built or converted by then. On health plan get vet to put down any problems you have like parasites vaccines you already need and mineral deficiencies as you can only routinely do things that need doing according to get e.g. blackley or fluke.

tractorporn · 14-12-2018 9:50pm

manjou wrote: »

done plan myself when i joined not to hard . most important are housing and health plan because housing will have to be right by next winter so all sheds built or converted by then. On health plan get vet to put down any problems you have like parasites vaccines you already need and mineral deficiencies as you can only routinely do things that need doing according to get e.g. blackley or fluke.

I did ours back in 15 too, took me about two evenings to get together.

I got the vet to do us out a letter, with minerals, ibr and bvd vaccines and dosing once a year on it after the inspector requested it after the first inspection. Afaik the vets letter covers ya for the 5 years of the scheme

Earnshaw · 14-12-2018 11:40pm

tractorporn wrote: »

Yeah plus 10 points for full conversion

Are these points gained during the conversion phase?

tractorporn · 14-12-2018 11:48pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

Are these points gained during the conversion phase?

No there's 10 point for conversion of all land think there's 10 points for partial conversion too

endainoz · 15-12-2018 10:41am

tractorporn wrote:

There absolutely zero difference between the two crowds both are working out of the same set of standards

I'm sure your right, I just went with them after hearing some info from my advisor.

endainoz · 15-12-2018 10:48am

manjou wrote:

once you become organic you have to TRY and sell organic and this could become stricter going forward to try and stop people just going in for premiums

Well obviously it would make sense to do that, or to sell privately to other organic farmers.

It's a pity beef guys weren't given more priority seen as the industry is on it's knees at the moment. The reasoning behind giving tillage priority is that there's supposed to be a severe shortage of organic meal available.

Would that leave guys to rely on grass/out wintering for finishing?

Water John · 15-12-2018 12:09pm

Wintering cattle organically needs clover sward crop if possible.

Earnshaw · 16-12-2018 2:37pm

Can organic cattle be grazed on the non-organic portion of a farm?

Either in the conversion phase or after.

tractorporn · 16-12-2018 2:54pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

Can organic cattle be grazed on the non-organic portion of a farm?

Either in the conversion phase or after.

Short answer no. It's treated the same as non organic beef nuts, etc.

148multi · 16-12-2018 4:46pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

Can organic cattle be grazed on the non-organic portion of a farm?

Either in the conversion phase or after.

I heard they were going to bring it in, but I did not think you could keep some of the farm as non organic yet.

Chisler2 · 16-12-2018 5:04pm

bogman_bass wrote: »

biggest issue is the 2 year conversion period. You get all the disadvantages of organic with none of the bonuses

Isn't that called 'investing'?

tractorporn · 16-12-2018 5:11pm

148multi wrote: »

I heard they were going to bring it in, but I did not think you could keep some of the farm as non organic yet.

Yeah you don't have to have all your land organic as long as it's a different species. Like you could have organic tillage on a piece of your ground and non organic beef around the house

148multi · 16-12-2018 5:30pm

bogman_bass wrote: »

biggest issue is the 2 year conversion period. You get all the disadvantages of organic with none of the bonuses

220 per Ha is alright of a bonus and no fert costs.

blue5000 · 16-12-2018 5:48pm

148multi wrote: »

220 per Ha is alright of a bonus and no fert costs.

Might have been mentioned already, but you don't get it if you have payments already for LIPP and hay meadows in GLAS.

Water John · 16-12-2018 5:52pm

There is another bit €30/40 for tlllage and red clover respectively from my reading. So some could be €250/260 for the 2 years, all reverting to €170 then.

The downside is grass sward well used to bag will take 2 years to adapt. Wouldn't expect great grass yield. Will people stitch in other grass species and white clover into grazing block?

Earnshaw · 16-12-2018 10:45pm

How does being in the organic scheme impact on payments in the BPS, Glas schemes...?

Water John · 16-12-2018 10:47pm

None, except land cannot be getting Glas money and draw Organic money.

Justjens · 17-12-2018 12:18am

Water John wrote: »

None, except land cannot be getting Glas money and draw Organic money.

You can still be in GLAS but traditional hay meadows and permanent grass (or whatever they're called) payments are the only measures that are reduced by the amount of organic payment you get on that area.

Chisler2 · 17-12-2018 1:11am

roosterman71 wrote: »

Interesting study on the climate effects of organic farming vs. conventional
You might want to think twice when buying organic, new study claims
Assessing the efficiency of changes in land use for mitigating climate change (need a subscription to read the study in full)

The article suggests increased environmental cost of organic over factory farming arise from the use of more land and the cutting down of forests. Is this assertion serious? Organic food production surely requires a greater investment of labour, possibly less (but higher quality!) produce..........but cutting down forests!!!!!

endainoz · 10-01-2019 6:13pm

In case anyone was interested, got to send off the application to organic trust before the deadline and they told me documentation was being posted out. Also will be getting an inspection from them in the next two weeks so we'll see where we go from there.

endainoz · 26-09-2019 1:19pm

Hello folks, I was checking my application for the organic scheme on agfood today, and noticed that the status of my application had changed to 'Ready for RASS'. Hopefully this is good news, does anyone know exactly what this means?

Panch18 · 26-09-2019 3:20pm

endainoz wrote: »

Hello folks, I was checking my application for the organic scheme on agfood today, and noticed that the status of my application had changed to 'Ready for RASS'. Hopefully this is good news, does anyone know exactly what this means?

What is your plan for being in organic? All beef? a bit of tillage?

organic farming

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