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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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    #6512
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    GT89 wrote: »
    Have the new bills been voted on by the union yet?

    I don't think they have, it seems to be the done thing now, leave it till the last minute and no matter what something is rushed in.....

    They've known these changes were coming years ago yet bills only shown a week or 2 ago. That's ridiculous.


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    #6513
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    oneanddone wrote: »
    marking in as we know gone

    Marking in has to go under any sane rostering system.

    Victorian working practice with huge safety issues (give all the varied, difficult work to the newbies and the easy stuff to the experienced ones)

    The sooner its forgotten the better. Any union in favour of it is rotten to the core, preferring a subset of members over the rest.

    Buying the support of the workers that get crapped on with the idea that some day, maybe, they get to be the crapper not the crappee has gone out in every sane workplace.


  • Options
    #6514
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    L1011 wrote: »
    Marking in has to go under any sane rostering system.

    Victorian working practice with huge safety issues (give all the varied, difficult work to the newbies and the easy stuff to the experienced ones)

    The sooner its forgotten the better. Any union in favour of it is rotten to the core, preferring a subset of members over the rest.

    Buying the support of the workers that get crapped on with the idea that some day, maybe, they get to be the crapper not the crappee has gone out in every sane workplace.

    I for one don't want what I worked near 13 years to get gone and still have to work absolutely unhealthy hours and shifts made later and earlier....

    Do you work there?
    Why do others think they have as much as a say when they don't go through it all themselves?

    This new style is going to make the job absolutely unbearable.


  • Options
    #6515
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I for one don't want what I worked near 13 years to get gone and still have to work absolutely unhealthy hours and shifts made later and earlier....

    Do you work there?
    Why do others think they have as much as a say when they don't go through it all themselves?

    This new style is going to make the job absolutely unbearable.

    You worked 13 years getting crapped on by drivers with golden shifts. Its their fault you had awful shifts, nobody else

    "work hard and some day you'll get the golden shift" is not something that should exist in a reasonable workplace, and for a trade union - meant to support the equality of workers - to support that is disgusting.

    New workers won't have to go through the awful->golden transition, and if unions had done their job decades ago as they should have to remove this appalling division, you wouldn't have either. But to try defend it now is indefensible.


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    #6516
    Burt Renaults
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    This new style is going to make the job absolutely unbearable.

    On the flip side, it might make it a lot more bearable for newer drivers.


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    #6517
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    L1011 wrote: »
    You worked 13 years getting crapped on by drivers with golden shifts. Its their fault you had awful shifts, nobody else

    "work hard and some day you'll get the golden shift" is not something that should exist in a reasonable workplace, and for a trade union - meant to support the equality of workers - to support that is disgusting.

    It's what everyone signed up to ....
    What changed was the recession.

    You were supposed to get marked in at 5 years or before, many did but the recession as said done this in, it suited the company they'd rather all spare.

    I was nearly 8 years on the junior roster too, this was meant to be up to 18 months when I started.

    I got one weekend off every 6 weeks, this was tweaked to add a Sunday in to take away o/t, they changed it to a 5 week but I still only had 1weekend in that 5 weeks where as I should have been getting 2 weekend which were one short and one long and work 2 Sundays instead of one.....

    Short is sat/sun and long sat/sun/Mon.....

    I lost out on quite a lot of money over this, Sunday pay, more time off at weekend too.....

    The new staff haven't a clue how bad it was, there was no blocks to follow, no sick cars to follow and it was just a joke, call in at 1 or 2 to find out what you were working the next day.
    Sheets would be up at 1 and rarely you could find out before this....


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    #6518
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    It's what everyone signed up to

    That doesn't mean it was an unfair, outdated system that had no place to exist in modern society. And its ridiculous its only being dealt with now.

    All your awful rostering problems would not have existed if there was a single category of driver - a driver. None of the nonsense terms that have built up for various categories over the years.


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    #6519
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Burt Renaults wrote: »
    On the flip side, it might make it a lot more bearable for newer drivers.

    Actually no it won't, from what I see it's attacking us all. Extra time away from home, family, Hobies etc.... Health issues will be a big thing from this....

    Sure the late duties are in many cases spare, much better duties then marked in ones too.


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    #6520
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    L1011 wrote: »
    That doesn't mean it was an unfair, outdated system that had no place to exist in modern society. And its ridiculous its only being dealt with now.

    All your awful rostering problems would not have existed if there was a single category of driver - a driver. None of the nonsense terms that have built up for various categories over the years.

    But the new rosters are worse for everyone from what I can make out, many a road now doesn't even have a B rota car on it,


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    #6521
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    But the new rosters are worse for everyone from what I can make out, many a road now doesn't even have a B rota car on it,

    Longer operating hours, which were known to be coming for years and years, are going to make that appear to be the case.

    If you continued with the golden boys getting the best of everything the shifts for the rest would be unspeakably bad.

    If the nonsense had been thrown out years ago you'd have seen much better shifts on the existing operating hours.


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    #6522
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    It's good to see an end to the weird driver class system. That didn't belong in the 21st century.


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    #6523
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    So I now will have to work longer hours, take longer to get into work, put up with even more stress on and off the roads etc and be happy..... Seriously come off it.

    Any marked in driver that doesn't fight this needs checking out.


    1987 db took over from CIE as it were, yes still CIE but the marked in status was there.....


    I'd actually like to think people like myself would be treated with a but more respect to be honest.


    T looks to me like my days will be anywhere from 10-13 hour days maybe even more taking commute, traffic etc into account.


    Work life balance was meant to be looked at and pay parity with the likes of Luas, sure that will never happen as the Luas pay and perks are gone even further and further away.....


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    #6524
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    So I now will have to work longer hours, take longer to get into work, put up with even more stress on and off the roads etc and be happy..... Seriously come off it.

    Any marked in driver that doesn't fight this needs checking out.


    1987 db took over from CIE as it were, yes still CIE but the marked in status was there.....


    I'd actually like to think people like myself would be treated with a but more respect to be honest.


    T looks to me like my days will be anywhere from 10-13 hour days maybe even more taking commute, traffic etc into account.


    Work life balance was meant to be looked at and pay parity with the likes of Luas, sure that will never happen as the Luas pay and perks are gone even further and further away.....

    All defending the indefensible of a marked in position that should never have existed and I'm sure you resented when you didn't have one

    Good riddance.


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    #6525
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    L1011 wrote: »
    All defending the indefensible of a marked in position that should never have existed and I'm sure you resented when you didn't have one

    Good riddance.

    I got good, I got bad, but I knew what I was getting into, well when I say that I didn't expect to be near 13 years to get marked in and that was ridiculous as I said it should have been 5 or less.

    As I said new drivers can get long term sick cars, marked in blocks on junior and senior rotas etc etc....

    We hadn't any of that.


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    #6526
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I got good, I got bad, but I knew what I was getting into, well when I say that I didn't expect to be near 13 years to get marked in and that was ridiculous as I said it should have been 5 or less.

    As I said new drivers can get long term sick cars, marked in blocks on junior and senior rotas etc etc....

    We hadn't any of that.

    And all that system is gone. That's the point.

    Its dead. Its gone*. It shouldn't have existed. Whatever you suffered under it is now irrelevant to the here and now - and shouldn't have happened to begin with, but trying to use the past to justify a better position now doesn't work.

    *excepting other parts of the system where it indefensibly still exists


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    #6527
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    L1011 wrote: »
    And all that system is gone. That's the point.

    Its dead. Its gone*. It shouldn't have existed. Whatever you suffered under it is now irrelevant to the here and now - and shouldn't have happened to begin with, but trying to use the past to justify a better position now doesn't work.

    *excepting other parts of the system where it indefensibly still exists

    So I just suck it up, have went through all of that to actually come out worse off.....

    Suppose next I'll be told it should be minimum wage and I should be delighted.


  • Options
    #6528
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    So I just suck it up, have went through all of that to actually come out worse off.....

    Yes. Entirely

    Go blame the golden boys who got the good routes when you were being crapped on for your treatment then. Whats happening now has nothing to do with the past. They are the only people you can consider to owe you anything for the mistreatment of the Victorian system that's now being left behind, because they clearly supported it.

    There should only be one category of qualified driver - driver. That is a very simplistic concept and it is one any useful union should have been fighting for from day one.

    "others must suffer because I suffered" is basically the ethos of the Tory private schools in the UK. Something I'd prefer to see eradicated.


  • Options
    #6529
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,529 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I will never ever understand the "others must suffer because I suffered" mindset. I'm raising my son to be a better person than me, not to try and drag him down to my level, and I find it horrifying anyone who wants to do that. It's not any different in other aspects of life.


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    #6530
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Are any of you a driver in db


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    #6531
    d51984
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭d51984


    Newbie at Clontarf, less than a year here. The tension here last few weeks has been unreal. Just keeping myself to myself, but do have a bit of sympathy for some of the senior lads.

    Have a feeling its all going to come to head very very soon.

    Its a disgrace Joe!



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    #6532
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    What would the general thoughts of the GAI drivers about not having the same marking in system as Dublin Bus?

    Would they be very much in favour of keeping their own different shift system being maintained in place for BusConnects Dublin if they get the opportunity to win any tenders to operate the new routes that are being offered on the new network provided by the NTA?

    The way that I would see it with how they started up their operations in Dublin from 2018 up to now; I would say the drivers working for Go-Ahead at the moment would be relatively happy with just being regarded as a driver at the moment under their current system, with no types of senior driver roles involved in the company, when they are out on duty to drive the buses on their allocated routes. But I do very much understand that if any Go-Ahead driver out there is not really too happy with these new arrangements for these emerging BusConnects Dublin shift patterns, they have a valid reason to mention this issue to either anyone in management or to their trade union rep if they were concerned or not happy with these new shifts being provided to the company in the future.

    I am probably very much in the right camp to say this right now because Go-Ahead have been mentioned on this site recently that they won the tender to either one of the new North Dublin Orbital routes while Dublin Bus won the tender for one of the other northern orbitals.


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    #6533
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    A reminder of the previously published NTA view on the ability of Dublin Bus to comply with project costs and implementation times.

    I do not know if something changed in the final contract, but the below was the NTA's view in relation to the requirements between 2019 and 2024 under the new direct award contract.
    Early in the lifetime of the new contract, and once the final Bus Connects route network is confirmed, the Authority will need to work with Dublin Bus to amend or revise these routes and service levels to agree with those in the final Bus Connects network. This will require the Authority to negotiate a series of contract service variations with Dublin Bus.

    In negotiating these contractual variations the Authority will need to be cognisant of two aspects in particular (1) the variation price Dublin Bus proposes to charge for the change, and whether the required variation can be implemented by Dublin Bus in a manner that provides good value for money to the Authority, (2) the ability of Dublin Bus to commit to the performance requirements for the service, including reliability, punctuality, regularity and customer service quality, and (3) the timescale for implementation of the variation, and whether it can be delivered by Dublin Bus in a manner that fits in with the overall Bus Connects network implementation programme.

    If in the opinion of the Authority either route or service level variation costs or implementation timescales proposed by Dublin Bus appear to be excessive, the Authority reserves the right to competitively tender the services in question, in order to expedite the delivery of the Bus Connects service network in a timely and cost effective manner.

    The scale of the changes to bus services anticipated in the Bus Connects network, including the introduction of entirely new bus routes in some areas, means that the Authority will need to consider further whether those routes will be added to the Direct Award contract with Dublin Bus or be competitively tendered.

    I understand that some staff within Dublin Bus may be unhappy with the proposed new rosters.

    However if you push back too much to the point where it seriously ends up effecting the costs or implementation times of the new bus network, it may end up being a pyrrhic victory with the above in mind.


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    #6534
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    L1011 wrote: »
    Yes. Entirely

    Go blame the golden boys who got the good routes when you were being crapped on for your treatment then. Whats happening now has nothing to do with the past. They are the only people you can consider to owe you anything for the mistreatment of the Victorian system that's now being left behind, because they clearly supported it.

    There should only be one category of qualified driver - driver. That is a very simplistic concept and it is one any useful union should have been fighting for from day one.

    "others must suffer because I suffered" is basically the ethos of the Tory private schools in the UK. Something I'd prefer to see eradicated.

    Your outrage seems to be aimed entirely at marked in drivers for having it a little bit better than "spare" drivers. The main issue with spare drivers is afaik that they don't know until 48h in advance what shift they are going to be working not that marked in drivers are getting better shifts and hours than spare drivers as both would work the same hours.

    Also new drivers work 4 day weeks nowadays and can move on to a 5 day rota after a short period of time. Maybe instead of calling for privileges to be taken away from senior staff you should be calling for the same privileges to given to junior staff if you want true. I'm sure senior DB staff wouldn't have an issue if they started treating junior staff the same as how the senior staff are presently.

    What you are basically saying is because one group is being treated badly compared to the other let's drag the group that's being treated better down to the level of the group being treated badly in order to achieve equality. Instead of improving the lot of the group being treated badly to be on an equal footing as the better treated group.


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    #6535
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    What would the general thoughts of the GAI drivers about not having the same marking in system as Dublin Bus?

    Would they be very much in favour of keeping their own different shift system being maintained in place for BusConnects Dublin if they get the opportunity to win any tenders to operate the new routes that are being offered on the new network provided by the NTA?

    The way that I would see it with how they started up their operations in Dublin from 2018 up to now; I would say the drivers working for Go-Ahead at the moment would be relatively happy with just being regarded as a driver at the moment under their current system, with no types of senior driver roles involved in the company, when they are out on duty to drive the buses on their allocated routes. But I do very much understand that if any Go-Ahead driver out there is not really too happy with these new arrangements for these emerging BusConnects Dublin shift patterns, they have a valid reason to mention this issue to either anyone in management or to their trade union rep if they were concerned or not happy with these new shifts being provided to the company in the future.

    I am probably very much in the right camp to say this right now because Go-Ahead have been mentioned on this site recently that they won the tender to either one of the new North Dublin Orbital routes while Dublin Bus won the tender for one of the other northern orbitals.

    Sure many of the original GAI drivers that started in 2018 have now left the company to join DB


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    #6536
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    GT89 wrote: »
    Sure many of the original GAI drivers that started in 2018 have now left the company to join DB

    That in itself tells one with a brain cell what's going on ..


  • Options
    #6537
    marrm
    Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭marrm


    Peregrine wrote: »


    No formal announcement yet. It'll be the end of June.

    I queried Dublin Bus about a 31a problem with it deliberately missing out Thormanby Road yesterday, they revealed that it would be replaced by the 6 on June 27.

    Actually they called it the H6 and had a few spelling errors in their email, but I assume they did mean 6.

    "BusConnect is starting from the 27th June and H6 will be replacing the 31/a and will no longer service this road."


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    #6538
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    This seems quite poor from DB and the NTA. Almost two weeks away from the launch with no official announcement so a lack of notice of the change for potential passengers and from what posters are saying DB appear to be fcuking about with driver rosters so a potential IR issue also. Wouldn't surprise if the changes got delayed further if the drivers understandably reject these new bills.


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    #6539
    ax586
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    What would the general thoughts of the GAI drivers about not having the same marking in system as Dublin Bus?

    Would they be very much in favour of keeping their own different shift system being maintained in place for BusConnects Dublin if they get the opportunity to win any tenders to operate the new routes that are being offered on the new network provided by the NTA?

    The way that I would see it with how they started up their operations in Dublin from 2018 up to now; I would say the drivers working for Go-Ahead at the moment would be relatively happy with just being regarded as a driver at the moment under their current system, with no types of senior driver roles involved in the company, when they are out on duty to drive the buses on their allocated routes. But I do very much understand that if any Go-Ahead driver out there is not really too happy with these new arrangements for these emerging BusConnects Dublin shift patterns, they have a valid reason to mention this issue to either anyone in management or to their trade union rep if they were concerned or not happy with these new shifts being provided to the company in the future.

    I am probably very much in the right camp to say this right now because Go-Ahead have been mentioned on this site recently that they won the tender to either one of the new North Dublin Orbital routes while Dublin Bus won the tender for one of the other northern orbitals.

    I left GAI because go ahead management where bending over backwards for the ex DB staff like whatever route you want to do etc and rosters and if they moaned they sort something out..while staff that started in GAI just had to grin and bear it.i ask could I move to a different roster was told no as no space on it and next day a ex DB driver got put onto it because he didn't like the other route he was doing.


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    #6540
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Phase 1 now announced at https://www.transportforireland.ie/h-spine/
    Phase 1 of the new BusConnects network will launch on 27th June with the introduction of H-Spine (H1, H2, H3, H9) and Route 6 (all operated by Dublin Bus).

    Old-vs-New-Maps-200k.jpg

    H-Spine:
    City centre to North-East suburbs including: Baldoyle, Donaghmede, Raheny, Malahide, Portmarnock, Howth and Kilbarrack.

    Route 6
    Howth, St. Fintan’s, Watermill Road, City centre.

    Fares
    Fares will remain the same for all new routes.

    Changes to 102 and 32x
    Routes 102 (operated by Go-Ahead Ireland) and 32x (operated by Dublin Bus) will now operate via Strand Road instead of Carrickhill Road and Wendell Avenue. The remainder of both routes will stay the same. Special school routes 102a, 102c, 102s and 102p will not be changing.

    Route 130 Terminus Change
    The terminus for route 130 will move from Lower Abbey Street to Talbot Street on Sunday 27th June to facilitate the H1, H2, H3 and Route 6.

    Timetables

    H1
    Route-H1-Northbound-BLACK.jpg
    Route-H1-Southbound-BLACK-1.jpg

    H2
    Route-H2-Southbound-BLACK-1.jpg
    Route-H2-Northbound-BLACK-1.jpg

    H3
    H3-Southbound-BLACK.jpg
    H3-Northbound-BLACK.jpg

    6
    Route-6-Southbound-BLACK.jpg
    Route-6-Northbound.jpg


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    #6541
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    See Brochures for the launch:
    https://www.transportforireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/H-Spine-Booklet-ONLINE-English-11.06.21.pdf (English)
    https://www.transportforireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/H-Spine-Booklet-ONLINE-Irish-11.06.21.pdf (Irish)

    Also a handy FAQ on the TFI site.

    Dublin Bus have also published details, although is quite vague and no timetables.
    https://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Bus-Connects-Hub/


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