Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 5:30pm

Perifect wrote: »

How can you not remember that Beirne calls the line outs for Munster? It was literally on the last page!

And when both Beirne and Roux were on the pitch at the same time in the same jersey, Roux called them.

aloooof · 11-02-2019 5:31pm

Perifect wrote: »

Beirne was selected ahead of Roux, he was next in line behind Toner and Henderson!

Beirne was selected ahead of Roux
Dillane was selected ahead of Roux.
Roux started ahead of Dillane on Saturday.

The above are factually accurate. The last bit of your post you're just asserting yourself, without any idea if it's true or not.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:31pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Ok.

You just ignore everything that's been said to you and go with your own assumptions despite the fact they are all deeply flawed.

They're not flawed at all! Roux wasn't even in the original squad, Beirne was there as the third in line if Toney and Henderson were out.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:32pm

Faugheen wrote: »

And when both Beirne and Roux were on the pitch at the same time in the same jersey, Roux called them.

It would have been Beirne and Ryan starting, Roux wouldn't have replaced Ryan so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

b.gud · 11-02-2019 5:33pm

Has anyone considered this instead?

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:34pm

aloooof wrote: »

Beirne was selected ahead of Roux
Dillane was selected ahead of Roux.
Roux started ahead of Dillane on Saturday.

The above are factually accurate. The last bit of your post you're just asserting yourself, without any idea if it's true or not.

3 callers were selected, Toner, Henderson and Beirne! You can't just ignore that. Roux wasn't selected.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:35pm

b.gud wrote: »

Has anyone considered this instead?

Yes, I have. They just can't face reality.

leakyboots · 11-02-2019 5:38pm

Can we maybe name the thread 'Ireland's Call?' (with a baffled emoji)…?

aloooof · 11-02-2019 5:40pm

This might've been lost amid the last few pages. Anyone?

aloooof wrote: »

In the interest of moving things along, is Jack McGrath still injured? And is there an argument that Killer is now playing himself into the position of 2nd choice Loosehead?

My thinking is if all are fit, Kilcoyne may start on the bench, but if Healy gets injured, McGrath would likely start?

Former Former · 11-02-2019 5:42pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Did you not read the post I quoted?

Yes, I did.

I was trying to post a different angle on this interminable debate.

What if saying 'Dillane was ahead of Roux' was like saying 'Cooney was ahead of Ross Byrne'?

I have no idea btw, but if Dillane was ahead of Roux in all circumstances, he'd have benched last week and started this week. He didn't, so there has to be more to it.

connemara man · 11-02-2019 5:43pm

let's leave the Quinn Roux/second row depth chat there for now

So can we please move on

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 5:45pm

Former Former wrote: »

Yes, I did.

I was trying to post a different angle on this interminable debate.

What if saying 'Dillane was ahead of Roux' was like saying 'Cooney was ahead of Ross Byrne'?

I have no idea btw, but if Dillane was ahead of Roux in all circumstances, he'd have benched last week and started this week.

The point I was making is that Beirne being in the squad ahead of Roux means shag all because Dillane was also selected and still benched behind him at the weekend.

You’re honestly quoting my post and making the same point to me that I was making.

EDIT: Just seen mod warning.

troyzer · 11-02-2019 5:57pm

aloooof wrote: »

This might've been lost amid the last few pages. Anyone?

aloooof wrote: »

In the interest of moving things along, is Jack McGrath still injured? And is there an argument that Killer is now playing himself into the position of 2nd choice Loosehead?

My thinking is if all are fit, Kilcoyne may start on the bench, but if Healy gets injured, McGrath would likely start?

It's not entirely clear what the craic is. He was clearly unfit against Ulster which is why he was dropped for Toulouse. Then he went fine against Wasps and we haven't seen him since.

I find it hard to believe it's entirely on form but Kilcoyne is a great impact sub, similar to Cronin. Great ball carrier whereas McGrath seems to be more reliably nuts and bolts.

I'm surprised as well he hasn't featured.

Former Former · 11-02-2019 7:29pm

troyzer wrote: »

It's not entirely clear what the craic is. He was clearly unfit against Ulster which is why he was dropped for Toulouse. Then he went fine against Wasps and we haven't seen him since.

I find it hard to believe it's entirely on form but Kilcoyne is a great impact sub, similar to Cronin. Great ball carrier whereas McGrath seems to be more reliably nuts and bolts.

I'm surprised as well he hasn't featured.

Just posted on the Leinster thread that McGrath is back at Leinster but doesn't seem to be training, per the photos anyway.

He hasn't been fit for a while but we're lucky that Kilcoyne did a great job on Saturday.

mfceiling · 11-02-2019 7:58pm

Perifect wrote: »

Beirne made his first start in November for Ireland! If he wasn't injured now he would have started ahead of Roux

So who would have called the lineout on Saturday then? Ryan has never called them and Beirne has all of a handful of caps for Ireland where HE HAS NEVER called the lineout.
Maybe Kearney could call it or Furlong.

Edit...Just saw Mod Warning. Apologies.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 7:59pm

mfceiling wrote: »

So who would have called the lineout on Saturday then? Ryan has never called them and Beirne has all of a handful of caps for Ireland where HE HAS NEVER called the lineout.
Maybe Kearney could call it or Furlong.

Beirne would have called but we're not allowed to discuss it. We shall find out in a few weeks hopefully. I'll be back then to discuss it.

leakyboots · 11-02-2019 8:19pm

Killer has done very well for a man who hadn't played in the Six Nations for six years or something like that. Great impact sub to have with him and Cronin coming on at the same time. I'd agree with Aloooof - if Healy is out you'd think Jack McGrath is the one to go from the start - he's suffered a bit of a drop in form though, not hitting his pre-Lions heights. I recall him putting in insane amount of tackles for a fattie, doesn't seem to be posting those kinds of numbers any more - wonder is it a general fitness thing?

Burkie1203 · 11-02-2019 10:41pm

French media reporting on players comments about not knowing where they were to go when coming on. Talk of senior players taking over from Brunel.

troyzer · 11-02-2019 11:03pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

French media reporting on players comments about not knowing where they were to go when coming on. Talk of senior players taking over from Brunel.

Isn't that what happened in 2011?

Dubinusa · 11-02-2019 11:08pm

Wow, France are in turmoil.
Brunel won't make it to round 3!

Shefwedfan · 11-02-2019 11:11pm

troyzer wrote: »

Isn't that what happened in 2011?

Happened in 2015 as well

Also the soccer team

Also the canteen

troyzer · 11-02-2019 11:18pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Isn't that what happened in 2011?

Happened in 2015 as well

Also the soccer team

Also the canteen

I find it impossible not to adore France with all of their bull**** and ridiculousness. If we can't win the world cup, I hope they go on and batter everyone else to a victory.

Vive la France. Time for another revolution.

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irishbucsfan · 11-02-2019 11:21pm

troyzer wrote: »

Isn't that what happened in 2011?

It didn’t happen under Lievremont, the media just ran away with a rumour. As is often the case with those rumors. Then they quietly correct themselves after the clicks have subsided.

swiwi_ · 12-02-2019 6:34am

Any homesick Irish living in NZ...?

troyzer · 12-02-2019 7:11am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Any homesick Irish living in NZ...?

$185. What's that in real money, €7?

Not bad.

troyzer · 12-02-2019 9:05am

The Blood & Mud podcast was just talking about England's new chip chase game. Obviously they haven't come across a top back line yet but it's likely that this is the way forward to negate the blitz.

It was obvious that this was always going to be the way forward and I have no idea why it wasn't used earlier but for whatever reason this is clearly a new strategy. They reckon this year, including the world cup, will be defined by the chip chase and which teams can take advantage of an easing up of the blitz defense.

Ireland can go one of three ways here:

Either we go balls deep on the chip chase and abandon everything to date.

We stick with what we're doing.

Or we heavily incorporate the chip chase as a way of loosening defences to make it easier to make metres on our current attack.

I think it's too late to do the first effectively, the second isn't working. But the third one might be a recipe for success.

irishbucsfan · 12-02-2019 9:09am

It’s absolutely been used before. Ireland use it. It’s just media bait

troyzer · 12-02-2019 9:10am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It’s absolutely been used before. It’s just media bait

I agree that it has. But I've never seen anything like the amount of times England used the kick as a tactical, offensive weapon.

It's hard to see how a 13 man blitz can realistically counter it when executed properly. Even when it doesn't work, you're still pinning them inside the 22 which is where Ireland were strangled.

ClanofLams · 12-02-2019 9:13am

troyzer wrote: »

I find it impossible not to adore France with all of their bull**** and ridiculousness. If we can't win the world cup, I hope they go on and batter everyone else to a victory.

Vive la France. Time for another revolution.

Nah nothing against French traditionally but I hope they continue to struggle. Might lead to some reform of their club game.

irishbucsfan · 12-02-2019 9:16am

9s will adapt and negate it by focusing more on the backfield again and it’ll stop immediately because it’s a very inefficient way of playing if you’re losing possession. France “invented” this before.

troyzer · 12-02-2019 9:18am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

9s will adapt and negate it by focusing more on the backfield again and it’ll stop immediately because it’s a very inefficient way of playing if you’re losing possession. France “invented” this before.

Yeah, I think we'll know a lot more after the Wales game. It'll be the first time they've come up against a decent backline.

Not that Ireland don't have a decent backline but they were off form and really missing Kearney.

I also don't rate Jonny May's defense. He can probably be kicked all over.

Buer · 12-02-2019 9:58am

Carbery and Kilcoyne both retained within Irish camp. Looking like they'll be starting against Italy. It appears that Beirne almost certainly won't be involved according to JVG:

“Tadhg and CJ are still a few weeks away. They are on the normal procedure back, it’s good that both of them have started running. Both of them are on their feet. So, I think are in their time frame as released by the national squad, but no rugby training as of yet.

Zzippy · 12-02-2019 10:32am

troyzer wrote: »

I agree that it has. But I've never seen anything like the amount of times England used the kick as a tactical, offensive weapon.

It's hard to see how a 13 man blitz can realistically counter it when executed properly. Even when it doesn't work, you're still pinning them inside the 22 which is where Ireland were strangled.

I bet you've never seen an international team play 4 centres and 0 wingers before too. Between Ireland playing Henshaw at 15 but sticking with our 14 up defence, and France leaving their backfield like a tumbleweed scene in a western movie, England would have been naive not to exploit the space on offer. It doesn't mean international rugby has suddenly seen a revolution in the form of the "chip chase".

troyzer · 12-02-2019 10:35am

Zzippy wrote: »

I bet you've never seen an international team play 4 centres and 0 wingers before too. Between Ireland playing Henshaw at 15 but sticking with our 14 up defence, and France leaving their backfield like a tumbleweed scene in a western movie, England would have been naive not to exploit the space on offer. It doesn't mean international rugby has suddenly seen a revolution in the form of the "chip chase".

That's the thing. It's hard to know where they're at when France and even Ireland played so dreadfully.

I'm not trying to suggest there's been a revolution in the chip chase. As I've said already, it seems obvious to try and counter the blitz with a chip chase game but England seem to be the first ones to actually do it.

Zzippy · 12-02-2019 10:38am

troyzer wrote: »

That's the thing. It's hard to know where they're at when France and even Ireland played so dreadfully.

I'm not trying to suggest there's been a revolution in the chip chase. As I've said already, it seems obvious to try and counter the blitz with a chip chase game but England seem to be the first ones to actually do it.

Yeah, when refs are no longer policing the offside so blitz defences are up in your face before you have a chance to move the ball, it seems an obvious tactic to put them on their heels, and maybe they won't be so quick up next time. I wish refs would go hard on offside early in games and we might see a bit more space for attacking teams too.

razorblunt · 12-02-2019 10:57am

In fairness the ref has enough to be watching they really need help from the ARs. They used to be very vocal in calling offsides in the defensive line before but they seem to just be completely ignoring it fully now.

I'd expect most top teams to adjust to blitz defences with a sniping 9 or a few dinks over the top, very surprised Ireland didn't adapt in either game to that.

troyzer · 12-02-2019 10:59am

Offside has gotten really bad, especially when defending inside your 22.

Crossing on kick chasing is just as bad now. A bit of dark arts is fine but it's getting blatant now and nobody is calling it.

Zzippy · 12-02-2019 11:05am

It's more obvious when you're at a game and looking across the pitch, but defences are definitely not playing the back foot and are well up before the 9 even has the ball out, never mind passed it. Jack Carty has made hay a few times this year for Connacht with little chips over the top for himself or AN Other to chase e.g. his try vs Leinster. I can't understand why more teams aren't using it to try negate the offside. And yes, ARs should be policing this for the ref. It's infuriating watching a defence rush up offside while the AR right in front of you does nothing.

deisedude · 12-02-2019 11:08am

Zzippy wrote: »

It's more obvious when you're at a game and looking across the pitch, but defences are definitely not playing the back foot and are well up before the 9 even has the ball out, never mind passed it. Jack Carty has made hay a few times this year for Connacht with little chips over the top for himself or AN Other to chase e.g. his try vs Leinster. I can't understand why more teams aren't using it to try negate the offside. And yes, ARs should be policing this for the ref. It's infuriating watching a defence rush up offside while the AR right in front of you does nothing.

Very good point about the chip kicks. You would wonder why it isn't utilized more. Is it that teams are too afraid to give away possession at this level?

troyzer · 12-02-2019 11:11am

deisedude wrote: »

Very good point about the chip kicks. You would wonder why it isn't utilized more. Is it that teams are too afraid to give away possession at this level?

I think ultimately, the box kick has been so successful that they haven't bothered.

But it doesn't work when you do it over and over again and the opposition are getting away with screening the catch. It's not a 50/50 kick then. You're just handing the ball back.

That Carty chip kick against Leinster was class. That's all just speed of thought. Identifying the space and exploiting it. But that's down to his individual skill, England are currently the only team so far that have an entire system built around it. When Ford came on against France, they kept doing it.

Eod100 · 12-02-2019 11:39am

Yeah I wondered about that. Could Sexton have dropped back and kicked for terroritory or chipped over the top and have runners chasing? I know mid game it's probably hard to change up tactics

Skyfloater · 12-02-2019 12:57pm

Eod100 wrote: »

Yeah I wondered about that. Could Sexton have dropped back and kicked for terroritory or chipped over the top and have runners chasing? I know mid game it's probably hard to change up tactics

Not sure I buy that. Joe has the best view in the house, and is linked to the H2O guys, who are on and off the pitch like yo-yos.

leakyboots · 12-02-2019 6:34pm

Not sure if anyone else is noticing this or I'm wrong... but there seems to be an amount of wonky lineouts not getting called for not being straight... maybe it's the camera angles messing with me but that's what I seem to be seeing anyways

swiwi_ · 12-02-2019 6:59pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Not sure if anyone else is noticing this or I'm wrong... but there seems to be an amount of wonky lineouts not getting called for not being straight... maybe it's the camera angles messing with me but that's what I seem to be seeing anyways

The player throwing in the ball stands on the mark of touch with both feet outside the field of play. The thrower must not step into the field of play until the ball has been thrown. Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum.

Probably the least enforced law in rugby.

salmocab · 12-02-2019 6:59pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

The player throwing in the ball stands on the mark of touch with both feet outside the field of play. The thrower must not step into the field of play until the ball has been thrown. Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum.

Probably the least enforced law in rugby.

Apart from maybe hooking.

Clegg · 12-02-2019 7:13pm

There was a huge crackdown on crooked scrum feeds. World Rugby made a lot of noise about fixing that area.

Lasted about 6 weeks before reverting.

Shefwedfan · 12-02-2019 8:44pm

Clegg wrote: »

There was a huge crackdown on crooked scrum feeds. World Rugby made a lot of noise about fixing that area.

Lasted about 6 weeks before reverting.

because the ball went in and never came back out....

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troyzer · 12-02-2019 8:52pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

There was a huge crackdown on crooked scrum feeds. World Rugby made a lot of noise about fixing that area.

Lasted about 6 weeks before reverting.

because the ball went in and never came back out....

Yeah, World Rugby actually formalised the current setup when they changed the scrum laws. For about twenty years they just didn't enforce it but now it's not required to have a straight feed, you're just not allowed to feed it to your second row.

Perifect · 12-02-2019 8:58pm

So a World Cup game will be the last for Joe, if they make it it'll be the last for O'Brien and Best. Who else? Kearney? Sexton? Toner? Maybe one or two others from the 30+ age group might move on for a last pay day like O'Brien. It'll be sad but let's hope they finish on a high.

Shefwedfan · 12-02-2019 9:11pm

Perifect wrote: »

So a World Cup game will be the last for Joe, if they make it it'll be the last for O'Brien and Best. Who else? Kearney? Sexton? Toner? Maybe one or two others from the 30+ age group might move on for a last pay day like O'Brien. It'll be sad but let's hope they finish on a high.

O'Brien and Best will be gone, Best will retire

Sexton is playing till the next Lions tour so I doubt they will drop him that quick

Toner could go on a few more years

Earls will be 32? he might retire...Trimble and Bowe only made it to 33

healy might shoot off for a large paycheck as well, haven't heard much on his contract.

Cronin will be 33, he could hang it up to prolong career at Leinster

Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

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