Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Zzippy

Perifect wrote: »

Not having a go at Roux but this is the level we're at now. We're not looking for players who are competent in their positions, we're looking for players to stand out in their positions. To be able to perform above the minimum standards. Roux had a fine game as did other players like Best but they don't do what Henderson or Beirne can do, change a game.

Yes, because all of our players need to do the flashy stuff like big carries and turnovers. Sure we can ignore all the other stuff like clearing rucks and protecting our own ball, that simply doesn't make one stand out and it's quite simply not good enough... :rolleyes:

Zzippy

Faugheen wrote: »

I think anybody who has watched Quinn Roux for Ireland would have been able to guess this. He always does the job when he's required to.

The level of criticism towards him before even playing this week was ridiculous. Neil Francis can join Ewan McKenna on the list of people who need to f*ck off.

Francis has been on that list since oh, at least 1996...

Faugheen

thomond2006 wrote: »

Healy, Best, Porter, Ryan, Beirne*/Henderson*/Roux, POM, JVDF, Conan;
Murray, Carbery, Stockdale, Aki, Ringrose*/Farrell, Earls, Kearney

Scannell, Kilcoyne, Furlong, Dillane, SOB, Cooney, Carty, Henshaw*/Larmour

*if fit

Id be very surprised if Beirne starts ahead of Roux for the simple reason that Roux is a line-out caller.

sydthebeat

Faugheen wrote: »

Id be very surprised if Beirne starts ahead of Roux for the simple reason that Roux is a line-out caller.

the three being fit... henderson starts

molloyjh

I see a lot of people saying Roux is 4th or 5th choice lock and that he wouldn’t have been there had Henderson or Beirne been fit. Surely Roux is 3rd choice though? After all, we need a line out caller in the side. Toner, Henderson and Roux are the callers at the moment. Had Beirne been fit Roux would still have started ahead of him on that basis. We should be looking at our depth at lock on that basis.

Lineout callers: Toner, Henderson, Roux
Non-lineout callers: Ryan, Beirne, Dillane

Faugheen

molloyjh wrote: »

I see a lot of people saying Roux is 4th or 5th choice lock and that he wouldn’t have been there had Henderson or Beirne been fit. Surely Roux is 3rd choice though? After all, we need a line out caller in the side. Toner, Henderson and Roux are the callers at the moment. Had Beirne been fit Roux would still have started ahead of him on that basis. We should be looking at our depth at lock on that basis.

Lineout callers: Toner, Henderson, Roux
Non-lineout callers: Ryan, Beirne, Dillane

I was referring to both loose and tight locks when I should have been referring to the above, in all fairness.

Former Former

molloyjh wrote: »

I see a lot of people saying Roux is 4th or 5th choice lock and that he wouldn’t have been there had Henderson or Beirne been fit. Surely Roux is 3rd choice though? After all, we need a line out caller in the side. Toner, Henderson and Roux are the callers at the moment. Had Beirne been fit Roux would still have started ahead of him on that basis. We should be looking at our depth at lock on that basis.

Lineout callers: Toner, Henderson, Roux
Non-lineout callers: Ryan, Beirne, Dillane

It is also a case of tighthead and loosehead locks. Ask Tadhg Furlong if he'd rather have Dillane behind him in the scrum or an extra 10kg of South African beef.

That's why I won't be surprised if Jean Kleyn is in the mix come August.

In the meantime, Ryan needs to learn how to call a lineout.

Perifect

ClanofLams wrote: »

What’s your point? Henderson and Beirne weren’t available. What Roux did is basically exactly what would be expected of Toner. Somebody has to do the ugly stuff which is as important as the flashier stuff.

My point is that we need players to have the ability to do the ugly stuff and the game changing stuff. That's the level we're at. That's why Best's position could be under threat.

Perifect

Faugheen wrote: »

But Roux is arguably our 5th choice lock. People expecting our 5th choice to be up to the standard of arguably our second (a Lion) are completely and utterly delusional.

He came in and did the bread and butter, and worked harder around the breakdown (which was something desperately needed after the England game) than any other Irish forward and also called the lineout as well as Toner or Henderson would.

He did all of that and we won. What else is needed from him?

There's always questions over whether Roux is up to the task and every time he shows that he is.

He had a good game. He's a competent replacement, it's just we have game changers ahead of him on the list. That's all.

Perifect

Zzippy wrote: »

Yes, because all of our players need to do the flashy stuff like big carries and turnovers. Sure we can ignore all the other stuff like clearing rucks and protecting our own ball, that simply doesn't make one stand out and it's quite simply not good enough... :rolleyes:

If we had 15 players of a similar standard to Roux we'd get nowhere, we need world class. That's what we should be aiming for anyway?

Faugheen

Perifect wrote: »

He had a good game. He's a competent replacement, it's just we have game changers ahead of him on the list. That's all.

The only people ahead of Roux are Toner and Henderson. Tadhg Beirne isn’t.

It’s a conversation we’ve had before and I’m not interested in having it again, but if you think Beirne is a head of Roux in this scenario, then you would be wrong.

Beirne is in competition with James Ryan.

Faugheen

Perifect wrote: »

If we had 15 players of a similar standard to Roux we'd get nowhere, we need world class. That's what we should be aiming for anyway?

We do have those players but they’re injured at the moment.

Toner, Henderson both down. Roux needs to be at their level to come in and do a job? That’s absolutely ridiculous.

aloooof

Perifect wrote: »

If we had 15 players of a similar standard to Roux we'd get nowhere, we need world class. That's what we should be aiming for anyway?

NZ won a World Cup with Steven Donald coming on after 34 minutes.

jm08

molloyjh wrote: »

I see a lot of people saying Roux is 4th or 5th choice lock and that he wouldn’t have been there had Henderson or Beirne been fit. Surely Roux is 3rd choice though? After all, we need a line out caller in the side. Toner, Henderson and Roux are the callers at the moment. Had Beirne been fit Roux would still have started ahead of him on that basis. We should be looking at our depth at lock on that basis.

Lineout callers: Toner, Henderson, Roux
Non-lineout callers: Ryan, Beirne, Dillane

Interesting insight into the lineout from Donnacha Ryan. Dev Toner is the man!

https://www.herald.ie/sport/rugby/donnacha-still-feels-part-of-irelands-lineout-legacy-37762155.html

case885

molloyjh wrote:

Lineout callers: Toner, Henderson, Roux Non-lineout callers: Ryan, Beirne, Dillane

Beirne took over calling Munsters lineout so that's incorrect.

Buer

Murray Kinsella does a good piece analysing Carbery's performance at the weekend. Some good, some bad with the bad appearing to be largely down to incorrect decisions or organisation rather than execution.

https://www.the42.ie/joey-carbery-ireland-scotland-analysis-4487386-Feb2019/

If he is going to be our back up to Sexton, it's essential that he gets at least 3 starts between now and the RWC as well as starting the games against lesser opposition at the tournament. He needs to get more comfortable in that role and quick. He was clearly bervous in that spell before half time.

Mr Tickle

case885 wrote: »

Beirne took over calling Munsters lineout so that's incorrect.

he has but it hasn't been amazing this year. And it's a new enough skill for him so i don't know that he'll be taking it on for Ireland for a while. I guess there's only so much time in training for guys to be learning it.

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

Murray Kinsella does a good piece analysing Carbery's performance at the weekend. Some good, some bad with the bad appearing to be largely down to incorrect decisions or organisation rather than execution.

https://www.the42.ie/joey-carbery-ireland-scotland-analysis-4487386-Feb2019/

If he is going to be our back up to Sexton, it's essential that he gets at least 3 starts between now and the RWC as well as starting the games against lesser opposition at the tournament. He needs to get more comfortable in that role and quick. He was clearly bervous in that spell before half time.

He'll get Italy, maybe France, at least one of the warmups and hopefully three European knock out games as well as a few Pro14 games.

He would have learned loads from yesterday.

Rigor Mortis

Buer wrote: »

Murray Kinsella does a good piece analysing Carbery's performance at the weekend. Some good, some bad with the bad appearing to be largely down to incorrect decisions or organisation rather than execution.

https://www.the42.ie/joey-carbery-ireland-scotland-analysis-4487386-Feb2019/

If he is going to be our back up to Sexton, it's essential that he gets at least 3 starts between now and the RWC as well as starting the games against lesser opposition at the tournament. He needs to get more comfortable in that role and quick. He was clearly bervous in that spell before half time.

This in spades. Carberry is yet to have a very good game for Ireland. He needs to be given time to get comfortable. Our third choice needs sub time too.

Zzippy

Perifect wrote: »

If we had 15 players of a similar standard to Roux we'd get nowhere, we need world class. That's what we should be aiming for anyway?

Roux isn't first choice. We do have 15 players who are all better at their job than Roux is at his. That's why he's not first choice. You expect a 3rd choice lock to be at the same level as first choice players. That's just silly.

Edit: Silly is the most polite word I can think of.

troyzer

Zzippy wrote: »

Roux isn't first choice. We do have 15 players who are all better at their job than Roux is at his. That's why he's not first choice. You expect a 3rd choice lock to be at the same level as first choice players. That's just silly.

Edit: Silly is the most polite word I can think of.

I'd be interested in just seeing 15 Roux's on the pitch to be honest.

That would be class.

Faugheen

case885 wrote: »

Beirne took over calling Munsters lineout so that's incorrect.

That's nice and all but he hasn't called a line out for Ireland yet.

When he and Roux played against Italy, Roux called it.

Zzippy

troyzer wrote: »

I'd be interested in just seeing 15 Roux's on the pitch to be honest.

That would be class.

80 metre mauls for the win!

thomond2006

Tadhg Beirne is on the unavailable list for Munster for Friday. Andrew Conway is back in full training so he should feature. I'd say we won't see Beirne against Italy.

part time punk

Trying to follow this ... Assuming all locks are fit does that make the 4 in the WC squad, in alphabetical order to remove any hint of provincial bias:

Henderson, Roux, Ryan, Toner

Or: Beirne, Henderson, Ryan, Toner

I think Roux could have pushed himself ahead of Beirne

troyzer

part time punk wrote: »

Trying to follow this ... Assuming all locks are fit does that make the 4 in the WC squad, in alphabetical order to remove any hint of provincial bias:

Henderson, Roux, Ryan, Toner

Or: Beirne, Henderson, Ryan, Toner

I think Roux could have pushed himself ahead of Beirne

The latter.

Beirne simply offers too much upside.

Perifect

Faugheen wrote: »

The only people ahead of Roux are Toner and Henderson. Tadhg Beirne isn’t.

It’s a conversation we’ve had before and I’m not interested in having it again, but if you think Beirne is a head of Roux in this scenario, then you would be wrong.

Beirne is in competition with James Ryan.

I've never had this conversation with you and I don't really care what you're interested in. Beirne is ahead of Roux!

Perifect

Faugheen wrote: »

We do have those players but they’re injured at the moment.

Toner, Henderson both down. Roux needs to be at their level to come in and do a job? That’s absolutely ridiculous.

No, he's a decent replacement, we won't be winning anything with players of that level though.

Perifect

aloooof wrote: »

NZ won a World Cup with Steven Donald coming on after 34 minutes.

Yes, now imagine if they had a whole team of similar standard to Steven Donald!

aloooof

Perifect wrote: »

Yes, now imagine if they had a whole team of similar standard to Steven Donald!

Steven Donald was 3rd choice. So, following your point to it's conclusion, when have we ever had our 15 first choice players, and their 15 back-ups injured simultaneously? Never, is the obvious answer.

We have world class players. And we have able back-ups. Roux is in the latter category. What you're calling for is a depth chart that no team in world sport has.