AIL 2020-2021

Chico Flores · 07-07-2020 1:53pm

luke9311 wrote: »

Was thinking that myself I remember a Lansdowne 20s side (a good one at that too) season 13/14 and the league was decided on the Aviva back pitch in the final game between them and nure 20s that was riddled with talent most on that team were on that sct team year previously! I remember Stephen O’neill, brewer, Mike Murphy, Niall lalor, rob somerville and I think the likes of Ronan church, Creagh and borza the props and Roche the hooker were all on that 20 side season later some if not most of them names went onto ail team for them u don’t really see that now. That was a talented 20s team that year tho

I know that team exactly, were really good but just didn’t really kick on from it.

It’s not that there isn’t young talent, it just seems there isn’t a massive desire to kick on post 20s

Chico Flores · 07-07-2020 1:54pm

Stainalert wrote: »

Good signing for Tarf

Really good signing, but didn’t he miss a lot of last season injured?

luke9311 · 07-07-2020 1:59pm

Chico Flores wrote: »

I know that team exactly, were really good but just didn’t really kick on from it.

It’s not that there isn’t young talent, it just seems there isn’t a massive desire to kick on post 20s

Yeah I’d remember a few faces of that side alright not many tho. I know Somerville stopped after 20s and I think a few of them did too that creagh lad if it’s the prop I’m thinking of he went onto to sign academy contract with ulster and played in the six nations/ World Cup u20 side That was 5 ish years ago haven’t Heard from him since

Scottmactom · 07-07-2020 2:01pm

luke9311 wrote: »

Yeah I’d remember a few faces of that side alright not many tho. I know Somerville stopped after 20s and I think a few of them did too that creagh lad if it’s the prop I’m thinking of he went onto to sign academy contract with ulster and played in the six nations/ World Cup u20 side That was 5 ish years ago haven’t Heard from him since

Craig Trenier, he is playing pro in england still.

Scottmactom · 07-07-2020 2:01pm

Chico Flores wrote: »

Really good signing, but didn’t he miss a lot of last season injured?

Yep.

luke9311 · 07-07-2020 2:02pm

Stainalert wrote: »

AIL 1A News / Transfer Updates (As per this thread) - Please help fill in the gaps

Lansdowne
Captain: Jack Dwan
In: Ed O'Keeffe (Old Wesley), Tadgh McElroy (Clontarf), Kyle Dixon (Navan), Clive Ross (Lansdowne)
Out: Craig Ronaldson (Naas), Tim Murphy (Naas), Will Fay (Old Wesley)

Terenure
Captain: Stephen O'Neill
In: Alex Thompson (Ulster), Harrison Brewer (Panasonic Wild Knights), Cathal Marsh (RUNY, St Marys)
Out: Paddy Thornton (Wicklow)

Clontarf
Captain: Matt D'arcy
In: Alex Soroka (Trinity)
Out: Tadgh McElroy (Lansdowne)

Ballynahinch
Captain: ?
In: Joe Dunleavy (Malone), Conor McAuley (Belfast Harlequins)
Out: Conor Rankin (Malone), Clive Ross (Lansdowne)

Trinity
Captain: Max Kearney
In:
Out: Colm Hogan (Old Belvedere), Alex Soroka (Clontarf)

UCD:
Captain: Ronan Foley
In:
Out: Steve McVeigh (Monkstown), Jonny Guy (Travelling)

Young Munster:
Captain: ?
In: Danny Qualter (Nottingham), Pa Ryan (Shannon)
Out:

Cork Con
Captain: ?
In:
Out: Brian Scott (Retired)

UCC
Captain: ?
In:
Out:

Garryowen
Captain: ?
In:
Out:

From a lansdowne point of view I think Clive coming back to them again after his ulster stint would be a boost for them In the back row bringing him pro experience etc. And probably bulked up a lot since his last time he was playing for them. Good to see McElroy back too

D14Rugby · 07-07-2020 2:27pm

Chico Flores wrote: »

I know that team exactly, were really good but just didn’t really kick on from it.

It’s not that there isn’t young talent, it just seems there isn’t a massive desire to kick on post 20s

I think you might be having a slightly skewed version of not kicking on. Compared to most other clubs Terenure certainly do manage to have players kicking on after 20s. From that team that did the double double you've maybe 12-15 of them in and around the first 15 and a couple others playing abroad, like Trenier. They also came into the team that got what 3 promotions in a row and went 2 years unbeaten or something and they're now a serious prospect in 1A. There aren't many clubs around that could put out a team that have come all the way through its feeder system nevermind one capable of competing in 1A and Terenure do it nearly week in week out.

The junior side seems strong too with down to J4s at least and u20s may not win silverware every year but they normally play good rugby and are again almost exclusively past pupils with those that aren't normally having played minis or youths at the club.

Looking at leinsters site the J1s came fourth this season too with a very young side so the progression is definitely there and is a lot better than the majority of other clubs in the county

Chico Flores · 07-07-2020 4:27pm

D14Rugby wrote: »

I think you might be having a slightly skewed version of not kicking on. Compared to most other clubs Terenure certainly do manage to have players kicking on after 20s. From that team that did the double double you've maybe 12-15 of them in and around the first 15 and a couple others playing abroad, like Trenier. They also came into the team that got what 3 promotions in a row and went 2 years unbeaten or something and they're now a serious prospect in 1A. There aren't many clubs around that could put out a team that have come all the way through its feeder system nevermind one capable of competing in 1A and Terenure do it nearly week in week out.

The junior side seems strong too with down to J4s at least and u20s may not win silverware every year but they normally play good rugby and are again almost exclusively past pupils with those that aren't normally having played minis or youths at the club.

Looking at leinsters site the J1s came fourth this season too with a very young side so the progression is definitely there and is a lot better than the majority of other clubs in the county

Sorry maybe didn’t explain it properly, its not that the club is in a bad place. We field piles of sides, I have had my fun in the lower Metro leagues.

It is more just there seems to be a sort of block on our more or less homegrown 20s (nearly every player is from the school) and then taking the next step into the senior side, over the past few years. We are letting a few too many fall through the net, for all sides.

The Lost Sheep · 07-07-2020 4:28pm

Chico Flores wrote: »

Sorry maybe didn’t explain it properly, its not that the club is in a bad place. We field piles of sides, I have had my fun in the lower Metro leagues.

It is more just there seems to be a sort of block on our more or less homegrown 20s (nearly every player is from the school) and then taking the next step into the senior side, over the past few years. We are letting a few too many fall through the net, for all sides.

that's not a club only issue. It's a major problem within the sport everywhere.

D14Rugby · 07-07-2020 4:44pm

Chico Flores wrote: »

Sorry maybe didn’t explain it properly, its not that the club is in a bad place. We field piles of sides, I have had my fun in the lower Metro leagues.

It is more just there seems to be a sort of block on our more or less homegrown 20s (nearly every player is from the school) and then taking the next step into the senior side, over the past few years. We are letting a few too many fall through the net, for all sides.

Yeah I think that's not a Terenure thing though and in comparison to other clubs Terenure retain players very well. Just for example and I'm open to correction but I think there's maybe 5 players from the team that won the mccorry Cup in 2019 that have played first XV rugby this season gone, maybe the same again that "just" played J1s and I don't know about below that but I'd imagine the same again spread among the junior teams. I think any club in the county would be delighted to retain 15 players a year when they become too old for 20. If you're looking at a 40 man panel for 20s split between the two age groups to only lose roughly 5 the next year is actually quite exceptional stuff.

Five Eighth · 07-07-2020 5:06pm

Chico Flores wrote: »

Sorry maybe didn’t explain it properly, its not that the club is in a bad place. We field piles of sides, I have had my fun in the lower Metro leagues.

It is more just there seems to be a sort of block on our more or less homegrown 20s (nearly every player is from the school) and then taking the next step into the senior side, over the past few years. We are letting a few too many fall through the net, for all sides.

Anytime I watched Nure play, their team always seemed to have a bucketful of their feeder school players. My guess is that the senior cup players will play 20's but following 20's will have to compete to make the senior team match day squad. If you have a team which is pretty successful, many of these 20's will not make the cut. This will invariably lead to a lot of disgruntled young players who just will give up the game. There is a massive difference in their eyes training for senior cup and even 20's then training on a dark, wet Thursday night for a seconds match on Sunday.

D14Rugby · 07-07-2020 5:30pm

I don't know if it's even a mentality thing I think a lot of its these lads will play when they're in college but when you're in the "real world" you begin to question if working till 5:30 getting home and basically turning around to go training and then only actually getting home at 9pm but now sore and wet and cold is really worth it and a lot of the ones not playing firsts decide its not and you can understand it with how physical even J1s games are these days.

The Lost Sheep · 07-07-2020 8:36pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Anytime I watched Nure play, their team always seemed to have a bucketful of their feeder school players. My guess is that the senior cup players will play 20's but following 20's will have to compete to make the senior team match day squad. If you have a team which is pretty successful, many of these 20's will not make the cut. This will invariably lead to a lot of disgruntled young players who just will give up the game. There is a massive difference in their eyes training for senior cup and even 20's then training on a dark, wet Thursday night for a seconds match on Sunday.

yeah it's a bit of that and all too many just quit as they dont want to bother and as many from rugby schools dont really have a connection to clubs they find it easier to quit That's another reason why we should be getting schools players to have greater ties to clubs during their school years.

D14Rugby wrote: »

I don't know if it's even a mentality thing I think a lot of its these lads will play when they're in college but when you're in the "real world" you begin to question if working till 5:30 getting home and basically turning around to go training and then only actually getting home at 9pm but now sore and wet and cold is really worth it and a lot of the ones not playing firsts decide its not and you can understand it with how physical even J1s games are these days.

as I've said above. If you get players to have greater ties to clubs then it can be easier to keep players involved. Its very easy to quit when you're only a member/playing with a club 1 maybe 2 years.

The Lost Sheep · 08-07-2020 11:44am

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/john-o-sullivan-irfu-must-recognise-vital-role-of-clubs-in-rugby-s-return-1.4297686?mode=amp

Five Eighth · 08-07-2020 3:58pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/john-o-sullivan-irfu-must-recognise-vital-role-of-clubs-in-rugby-s-return-1.4297686?mode=amp

Thanks for the article. While it contains some good points, my impression is that it is coming from the perspective that the AIL exists primarily to serve the needs of the professional game. The article’s sub-heading is ‘Union will need a competitive match environment to keep players ticking over’. The writer refers to ‘young academy players’ and ‘senior contracted players’ but not once mentions the ‘club player’. If you take the five AIL divisions with ten teams in each and, at a conservative estimate, thirty players per squad, that gives you a total of 1,500 players. Surely the AIL’s primary focus should be on the club player and, those that have the talent and potential, may then progress to the professional game. The idea of treating 1A and 1B differently from the other divisions only serves to create a two-strand senior club game. It is my view that the same AIL format should be followed in all five divisions so as to provide a ‘competitive environment’ for all club players.

The Lost Sheep · 08-07-2020 9:50pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Thanks for the article. While it contains some good points, my impression is that it is coming from the perspective that the AIL exists primarily to serve the needs of the professional game. The article’s sub-heading is ‘Union will need a competitive match environment to keep players ticking over’. The writer refers to ‘young academy players’ and ‘senior contracted players’ but not once mentions the ‘club player’. If you take the five AIL divisions with ten teams in each and, at a conservative estimate, thirty players per squad, that gives you a total of 1,500 players. Surely the AIL’s primary focus should be on the club player and, those that have the talent and potential, may then progress to the professional game. The idea of treating 1A and 1B differently from the other divisions only serves to create a two-strand senior club game. It is my view that the same AIL format should be followed in all five divisions so as to provide a ‘competitive environment’ for all club players.

the league needs to work with both. Theres some talk on other forums about the pro14 needing an A league to really help the pro teams more and to almost stop pros playing AIL but I dont see that as good for the clubs the provinces or the sport in general.

I totally agree that the AIL should be about the club player and not about the environment for the pros and future pros of the sport.

Five Eighth · 08-07-2020 10:14pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

the league needs to work with both. Theres some talk on other forums about the pro14 needing an A league to really help the pro teams more and to almost stop pros playing AIL but I dont see that as good for the clubs the provinces or the sport in general.

I totally agree that the AIL should be about the club player and not about the environment for the pros and future pros of the sport.

A Pro14 A league? May i'm missing something but I think it would be a totally uneconomical venture. They can hardly attract crowds to some of the Pro14 league games, never mind sending teams to Wales, Scotland, Italy and South Africa for an A match that very few would have any interest in going to watch. Never mind paying good money to watch. I'd say that many of the Pro14 clubs just couldn't afford playing in a Pro14 A league. The IRFU would be well advised to concentrate on making the AIL the place where all aspiring rugby players would learn their trade and, for some, move on to the professional game.

VANG1 · 08-07-2020 10:20pm

A big problem is the schools monopolise good young players and they are not allowed play for the clubs even when their schools are knocked out which means there are not strong affiliations with a club and many just give up after school.

The Lost Sheep · 08-07-2020 10:26pm

VANG1 wrote: »

A big problem is the schools monopolise good young players and they are not allowed play for the clubs even when their schools are knocked out which means there are not strong affiliations with a club and many just give up after school.

the clubs should have specific competitions that allow those in rugby schools able to play in.
North Munster has for quite a few years had 2 cup competitions at end of season. 1 for players who've been playing club all season and another 'open cup' which includes those who were panelled by their school and unable to play in club leagues

The clubs should still be able to play those in rugby schools and who are playing 3rds, 4ths, 5ths which isnt the case now and these players are never really targeted when they leave school but are vital for club adult teams...

Five Eighth · 08-07-2020 10:45pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

the clubs should have specific competitions that allow those in rugby schools able to play in.
North Munster has for quite a few years had 2 cup competitions at end of season. 1 for players who've been playing club all season and another 'open cup' which includes those who were panelled by their school and unable to play in club leagues

The clubs should still be able to play those in rugby schools and who are playing 3rds, 4ths, 5ths which isnt the case now and these players are never really targeted when they leave school but are vital for club adult teams...

It is absolutely soul destroying for club coaches at underage, particularly when players start playing schools rugby, to lose most of their players to the schools and struggle to keep the show on the road. In some cases you may have clubs who have players from both rugby playing and non-playing schools in their underage teams. When they lose their rugby playing school players, they just don't have the numbers to field a team. The schools might have some case for players who are making the schools' first teams' squads but the reality is that no players are released to the clubs and many of these players are basically just making up the numbers and holding tackle bags. As noted on a previous post, this practice does not lend itself to building club loyalty.

The Lost Sheep · 09-07-2020 5:03pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

It is absolutely soul destroying for club coaches at underage, particularly when players start playing schools rugby, to lose most of their players to the schools and struggle to keep the show on the road. In some cases you may have clubs who have players from both rugby playing and non-playing schools in their underage teams. When they lose their rugby playing school players, they just don't have the numbers to field a team. The schools might have some case for players who are making the schools' first teams' squads but the reality is that no players are released to the clubs and many of these players are basically just making up the numbers and holding tackle bags. As noted on a previous post, this practice does not lend itself to building club loyalty.

Depends on the area but many in the leinster schools can field down the levels so there isnt many kids just holding tacklebags. Like in some cases in Munster.
Kids on 3rds, 4ths should always be able to play clubs rugby while those on 1stsz 2nds should be limited to specific competitions and friendlies.
It's ridiculous that so many city clubs dont field underage teams that play all through the season or at least significant numbers of games

The Lost Sheep · 09-07-2020 5:06pm

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/07/09/irfu-publish-2020-21-season-plan-for-club-competitions/

Irfu plans for next season.
Thoughts?

Stainalert · 09-07-2020 5:12pm

Some rugby is better than no rugby I guess but pretty disappointing outcome and hard to understand the rationale behind some of the decisions that have been made.

The Lost Sheep · 09-07-2020 5:24pm

Stainalert wrote: »

Some rugby is better than no rugby I guess but pretty disappointing outcome and hard to understand the rationale behind some of the decisions that have been made.

What do you find disappointing? What decisions do you disagree with?
Like how there will be all Ireland cup, plate, shield even if only for this season.

Chico Flores · 09-07-2020 6:20pm

I think it will sort of be a development season for teams with no promotion or relegation, certainly in the AIL part there won’t be as much blood and thunder with less on the line.

Five Eighth · 09-07-2020 7:18pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/07/09/irfu-publish-2020-21-season-plan-for-club-competitions/

Irfu plans for next season.
Thoughts?

Given the unique circumstances in which we are all now living our lives, I think that it is an honest effort to put together something that will provide something approaching competitive rugby and is relatively fair to all. It is a pity that we now have two seasons in a row where promotion and relegation do not apply. This may have some impact on how seriously the clubs take the competitions and how interested supporters will be in the games. My calculations indicate that there are 18 Leinster clubs in the AIL, 14 Munster clubs, 13 Ulster and just 5 from Connacht. After the Conferences have been played each province will provide 3 clubs for the All-Ireland Cup competition after Christmas. So out of a total of 5 clubs, Connacht will supply 3 clubs. Suppose it’s not a big deal. One of the main things for me is that the IRFU have not split the clubs into a ‘two-tier’ structure with an All-Ireland league for 1A and 1B clubs and a provincial league for the rest. Overall, it’s a valiant effort.

Stainalert · 09-07-2020 9:31pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What do you find disappointing? What decisions do you disagree with?
Like how there will be all Ireland cup, plate, shield even if only for this season.

All of it

At least all of the money that the IRFU save on travel allowances this season can rightfully go towards propping up the PRO game!! The icing on the cake are the 3 made up sevens tournaments that will be competed for by our sevens squad and academy players. So now the IRFU are telling everyone they believe that sevens is a better way for our academy players to prepare themselves for a professional career in 15s than playing actual 15s rugby in a proper competition.

luke9311 · 09-07-2020 9:33pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Given the unique circumstances in which we are all now living our lives, I think that it is an honest effort to put together something that will provide something approaching competitive rugby and is relatively fair to all. It is a pity that we now have two seasons in a row where promotion and relegation do not apply. This may have some impact on how seriously the clubs take the competitions and how interested supporters will be in the games. My calculations indicate that there are 18 Leinster clubs in the AIL, 14 Munster clubs, 13 Ulster and just 5 from Connacht. After the Conferences have been played each province will provide 3 clubs for the All-Ireland Cup competition after Christmas. So out of a total of 5 clubs, Connacht will supply 3 clubs. Suppose it’s not a big deal. One of the main things for me is that the IRFU have not split the clubs into a ‘two-tier’ structure with an All-Ireland league for 1A and 1B clubs and a provincial league for the rest. Overall, it’s a valiant effort.

Was just thinking the same thing.... with no promo/regulation and given it’s only this season (unless the pandemic takes a turn for the worst ye just never know) u wonder if some clubs will just use this season as an “experimental” season so to speak and just test various players in different positions and younger or lower team players That aren’t usually ail standard (j1 I speak here mainly) and give them a chance to shine ðŸ€·*♂️ðŸ€”

The Lost Sheep · 09-07-2020 9:59pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Given the unique circumstances in which we are all now living our lives, I think that it is an honest effort to put together something that will provide something approaching competitive rugby and is relatively fair to all. It is a pity that we now have two seasons in a row where promotion and relegation do not apply. This may have some impact on how seriously the clubs take the competitions and how interested supporters will be in the games. My calculations indicate that there are 18 Leinster clubs in the AIL, 14 Munster clubs, 13 Ulster and just 5 from Connacht. After the Conferences have been played each province will provide 3 clubs for the All-Ireland Cup competition after Christmas. So out of a total of 5 clubs, Connacht will supply 3 clubs. Suppose it’s not a big deal. One of the main things for me is that the IRFU have not split the clubs into a ‘two-tier’ structure with an All-Ireland league for 1A and 1B clubs and a provincial league for the rest. Overall, it’s a valiant effort.

connacht getting more than their share but would be hard to do something much different.
It is tough that we're having a second season in a row with no movement between divisions but it's two exceptional years
It may affect some clubs and how they approach things but could be a positive for the future if enough clubs look to the future and develop more players

Stainalert wrote: »

All of it

At least all of the money that the IRFU save on travel allowances this season can rightfully go towards propping up the PRO game!! The icing on the cake are the 3 made up sevens tournaments that will be competed for by our sevens squad and academy players. So now the IRFU are telling everyone they believe that sevens is a better way for our academy players to prepare themselves for a professional career in 15s than playing actual 15s rugby in a proper competition.

7s is playing an important role in developing players and has done it for plenty across the globe for years. At the top level you will see plenty who've played 7s all through their early career. Why should we be different.

luke9311 wrote: »

Was just thinking the same thing.... with no promo/regulation and given it’s only this season (unless the pandemic takes a turn for the worst ye just never know) u wonder if some clubs will just use this season as an “experimental” season so to speak and just test various players in different positions and younger or lower team players That aren’t usually ail standard (j1 I speak here mainly) and give them a chance to shine ��*♂️��

probably will and that some clubs may experiment shouldnt be a problem. Wouldnt be worst thing to happen

Stainalert · 09-07-2020 10:03pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

connacht getting more than their share but would be hard to do something much different.
It is tough that we're having a second season in a row with no movement between divisions but it's two exceptional years
It may affect some clubs and how they approach things but could be a positive for the future if enough clubs look to the future and develop more players

7s is playing an important role in developing players and has done it for plenty across the globe for years. At the top level you will see plenty who've played 7s all through their early career. Why should we be different.

So are we developing 7's players to be good 7's players or 15's players? AIL has produced far more professional 15's players than the Irish 7's system.

AIL 2020-2021

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