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Why would you vote SF?

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13567…11

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    #62
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    People in NI complain about Brexit for example yet voted for a group that would not defend the views of the majority in NI on the matter.

    It never ceases to amaze me how little thought people put into their musings. Has nobody who comments on this issue ever played chess or poker?

    Regardless, let's say that 5/6 votes will be the difference in Westminster. So SF rock up to 'save the day'. Can you imagine the complete uproar in Westminster when the political wing of the IRA march to their seats with big smiley heads on them?

    What do you think that would cause? That 5/6 votes balance would evaporate and the side SF decided to go with would suffer a major defeat.

    Think for goodness sake.


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    #63
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    For me I've given them the nod off and on depending on what else is on offer.
    They never used tax payer monies for sweet deals, lost the tax payer monies on bad deals or 'looked after their own' with state appointments. Also they never were responsible for the economy crashing or ignoring growing crises to concentrate on a proven to be flawed economic system. So I'd vote SF long before I'd vote FF/FG.
    They were never in government to have the opportunity to do these things.
    What's your point?


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    #64
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Regardless, let's say that 5/6 votes will be the difference in Westminster. So SF rock up to 'save the day'. Can you imagine the complete uproar in Westminster when the political wing of the IRA march to their seats with big smiley heads on them?

    What do you think that would cause? That 5/6 votes balance would evaporate and the side SF decided to go with would suffer a major defeat.
    Where did I suggest that SF attend WM?
    Is it a SF followers thing to read something which has been repeated multiple times yet not get the message?
    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Not once in this thread have I suggested that SF discard their policy of abstention yet you choose to read it that way.
    What I said was that I don’t understand why the people of NI chose a party that would not attend WM given what is currently happening.
    Now the people of NI face exclusion from the EU partly because of their elected choices.


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    #65
    riddles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭riddles


    SF engage in the politics of protest. This is the easiest stage of all to operate. We are all experts at pointing out things that are wrong and indulging in mock indignation but creating positive solutions is the challenging part. This is SF’s greatest challenge.

    They reached a budget impasse in the north and pulled down the assembly under the disguise of the Irish language issue and the cash for ash stuff. It probably suited the DUP also to ensure they keep the budget subvention coming.

    Even with record highs numbers in employment there they have a personal debt crisis and need 10-11 billion a year budget top up.

    In short SF in power is most likely a fast track to become the next Venezuela. They lack any basic grounding in the realities of how mobile financial capital is and our dependency on inward investment. The pond life who vote for them here and in the North don’t realize the SF ‘free everything’ mantra is just nonsense.


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    #66
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    maccored wrote: »
    I cant see the DUP getting cleared. Arlene introduced it and they were basically paying people to burn the fuel (may as well have been since the price was cheaper than the cost) - absolute con or complete stupidity one of the two. Where SF meant to sit there and say nothing?

    March 2017 was when article 50 was triggered. This whole hoohaa came to light in Oct/Nov 2016. you'll be telling me SF are psychic next

    The Brexit vote was in the summer of 2016. I doubt there was anybody on this or the neighbouring island who didn't realise that Article 50 was going to be invoked in the 12-18 months following the vote.

    I'm no fan of SF, but even I wouldn't go so far as to claim they were unaware of the results of the Brexit Referendum


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    #67
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    If this turns into a hotbed of trench warfare and petty sniping, it will be locked. No more oneupmanship please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #68
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    If this turns into a hotbed of trench warfare and petty sniping, it will be locked. No more oneupmanship please.

    Posts deleted and sanctions issued.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #69
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    I understand this SF's stance.
    I just don't get why people would rather have no representation in NI when it matters.
    People in NI complain about Brexit for example yet voted for a group that would not defend the views of the majority in NI on the matter. Now they're complaining that whilst NI voted to remain,it looks like they're being forced to leave against their wishes. Someone should be representing these people, not necessarily SF but someone!

    Actually being totally pedantic there is someone and yes it is a ONE.
    Sylvia Hermon MP for North Down is the only voice of reason representing NI in Westminister.

    She voted remain and has openly said DUP to not speak for majority in NI.


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    #70
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    For me I've given them the nod off and on depending on what else is on offer.
    They never used tax payer monies for sweet deals, lost the tax payer monies on bad deals or 'looked after their own' with state appointments. Also they never were responsible for the economy crashing or ignoring growing crises to concentrate on a proven to be flawed economic system. So I'd vote SF long before I'd vote FF/FG.

    In the limited time they had in power in NI, they managed to do at least one of the things you've claimed they never did.


    That aside - I can fully understand why nationalists in NI would vote SF. The nature of northern politics, combined with the structure of devolved Govt in Stormont (before the rug was pulled) was always going to result in voting for the nationalist and unionist communities moving to the more extreme parties rather than the parties of pragmatism and compromise.

    If unionists are shifting towards the DUP, then nationalists have no choice but to shift to SF for fear that the SDLP get railroaded.
    Similar logic applies for unionists looking at Alliance or UUP candidates.

    Throw in the system which incentives having one big party on "your side" instead of many smaller parties, and it's a recipe for a shift to the more hardline uncompromising parties.


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    #71
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blackwhite wrote: »
    In the limited time they had in power in NI, they managed to do at least one of the things you've claimed they never did.


    That aside - I can fully understand why nationalists in NI would vote SF. The nature of northern politics, combined with the structure of devolved Govt in Stormont (before the rug was pulled) was always going to result in voting for the nationalist and unionist communities moving to the more extreme parties rather than the parties of pragmatism and compromise.

    If unionists are shifting towards the DUP, then nationalists have no choice but to shift to SF for fear that the SDLP get railroaded.
    Similar logic applies for unionists looking at Alliance or UUP candidates.

    Throw in the system which incentives having one big party on "your side" instead of many smaller parties, and it's a recipe for a shift to the more hardline uncompromising parties.

    My apologies, either I missed the [Northern Ireland] prefix or it was added later. When I entered the discussion it was on southern politics, which was my comment.

    I'm speaking on giving appointments out to 'their own' not elected officials and brazenly saying such. I wouldn't have as much knowledge on the north in that regard.
    If you're suggesting anyone moving to one all encompassing hardline party will only embolden same on the opposite side, you have a point.


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    #72
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    Presumably they hold the only real hope of reuniting the country, a romantic idea that few want to let go of

    Nothing romantic about the likely cost to R of I taxpayers


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    #73
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,192 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    It never ceases to amaze me how little thought people put into their musings. Has nobody who comments on this issue ever played chess or poker?

    Regardless, let's say that 5/6 votes will be the difference in Westminster. So SF rock up to 'save the day'. Can you imagine the complete uproar in Westminster when the political wing of the IRA march to their seats with big smiley heads on them?

    What do you think that would cause? That 5/6 votes balance would evaporate and the side SF decided to go with would suffer a major defeat.

    Think for goodness sake.

    Doesn't that just tell you how divisive a political force Sinn Fein are?

    Their mission should be to reach across the community in the North and into Britain to build support for a united Ireland yet they just divide people with their stunts.


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    #74
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Doesn't that just tell you how divisive a political force Sinn Fein are?

    Their mission should be to reach across the community in the North and into Britain to build support for a united Ireland yet they just divide people with their stunts.

    eh? SF go to the seat of power of the government they've been opposing and you expect them to be welcomed?


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    #75
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Their mission should be to reach across the community in the North and into Britain to build support for a united Ireland yet they just divide people with their stunts.

    As you well know SF have been reaching out for a long time now and it was returned with sneering and vindictiveness.

    No more appeasement.


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    #76
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,192 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    maccored wrote: »
    eh? SF go to the seat of power of the government they've been opposing and you expect them to be welcomed?


    The Scottish National Party seem to be able to do it with conviction and authority.


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    #77
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The Scottish National Party seem to be able to do it with conviction and authority.

    Explain to me when the British government sent the army to SNP strongholds and murdered citizens?

    Or when were Scottish nationalists denied the right to vote?

    Scottish independence and the route to same isn't as fraught a road as Irish independence.

    An SRA isn't likely to develop now is it?

    How you keep a straight face while comparing apples and oranges on multiple threads is beyond me.


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    #78
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The Scottish National Party seem to be able to do it with conviction and authority.


    I think i can say i can safely ignore most things you say from now on to be honest


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    #79
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Wtf ? wrote: »
    Still a wasted vote tho, Nobody down here would go into Government with them and I see why. Their history does them no favors either. Their current mouthpiece does not help either, They just oppose everything and do nothing. Waste of space of a hopefully gone era.

    So just like Fine Gael & Fianna Fail then. All have dodgy histories, none of their current mouthpieces does them any favours & all are a waste of space.

    Having 3 parties in Ireland who's main ideology is Irish Nationalism is a waste. Ireland is one of the few countries that doesn't have a Social Democrat or Socialist party as one of the countries 3 major parties.

    And from what I remember SF did not oppose the abortion or gay marriage refs, the GFA, Irish unity, so saying they oppose everything shows you clearly don't know what your talking about.


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    #80
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Doesn't that just tell you how divisive a political force Sinn Fein are?

    Their mission should be to reach across the community in the North and into Britain to build support for a united Ireland yet they just divide people with their stunts.

    This might be true, but the DUP & hardline UUP members are just as gulity if not more so of dividing people with stunts, from Paisley declaring his support for the UVF & setting up Ulster Resistance, to blocking gay marriage rights, to Trimble at Drumcree, to Roberts declaring his support for bigoted hate preachers and trusting Muslims to buy him a paper but nothing more.


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    #81
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,192 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    BalcombeSt4 wrote: »
    This might be true, but the DUP & hardline UUP members are just as gulity if not more so of dividing people with stunts, from Paisley declaring his support for the UVF & setting up Ulster Resistance, to blocking gay marriage rights, to Trimble at Drumcree, to Roberts declaring his support for bigoted hate preachers and trusting Muslims to buy him a paper but nothing more.

    Yes, the DUP are just as guilty, if not more so, but they don't claim to speak for me.


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    #82
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,522 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    BalcombeSt4 wrote: »
    This might be true, but the DUP....

    Whataboutery much? :p


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    #83
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    Whataboutery much? :p

    Serious comments only please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #84
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,169 ✭✭✭Good loser


    I would never vote for SF.


    Their nationalism is a turn off, as is that of the DUP, and the English nationalist Brexiteers. In any case the heydey of nationalism has passed.


    Their economic policies are pretty infantile. Opposition to water charges and property tax and now the carbon tax are mind boggling for a socialist-leaning party. They support a 'wealth tax' though 75% of all wealth is in residential property! Each year at budget time they produce a so-called costed budget and when challenged about spending figures revert to the 'costed budget'. This budget is riddled with anomalies and omissions which journalists are too lazy to interrogate.


    Their housing proposals are circular and never related to the true costs.


    In the last weeks at least three votes in the HOC were lost by lest than 7 votes. If they were concerned with the economic interests of their voters SF would have attended. If they don't want to attend why not refuse to stand in the elections. They are elected to represent all their constituents not just their own voters. The greatest cheerleaders for their abstention policies must be their political enemies - Farage, ERG, Brexiteer Tories, DUP. Or are they?

    What chance a peerage for Mary Lou?


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    #85
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,192 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Good loser wrote: »
    I would never vote for SF.


    Their nationalism is a turn off, as is that of the DUP, and the English nationalist Brexiteers. In any case the heydey of nationalism has passed.


    Their economic policies are pretty infantile. Opposition to water charges and property tax and now the carbon tax are mind boggling for a socialist-leaning party. They support a 'wealth tax' though 75% of all wealth is in residential property! Each year at budget time they produce a so-called costed budget and when challenged about spending figures revert to the 'costed budget'. This budget is riddled with anomalies and omissions which journalists are too lazy to interrogate.


    Their housing proposals are circular and never related to the true costs.


    In the last weeks at least three votes in the HOC were lost by lest than 7 votes. If they were concerned with the economic interests of their voters SF would have attended. If they don't want to attend why not refuse to stand in the elections. They are elected to represent all their constituents not just their own voters. The greatest cheerleaders for their abstention policies must be their political enemies - Farage, ERG, Brexiteer Tories, DUP. Or are they?

    What chance a peerage for Mary Lou?


    Have to agree with all of this.

    You forgot that they also wish to tax unicorns and rainbows and other similarly tangible assets.

    It is really difficult to find a single concrete achievable objective that Sinn Fein favour. Either their goals are unachievable or cost an awful lot more than the fantasy costs provided.


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    #86
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Good loser wrote: »
    I would never vote for SF.


    Their nationalism is a turn off, as is that of the DUP, and the English nationalist Brexiteers. In any case the heydey of nationalism has passed.


    Their economic policies are pretty infantile. Opposition to water charges and property tax and now the carbon tax are mind boggling for a socialist-leaning party. They support a 'wealth tax' though 75% of all wealth is in residential property! Each year at budget time they produce a so-called costed budget and when challenged about spending figures revert to the 'costed budget'. This budget is riddled with anomalies and omissions which journalists are too lazy to interrogate.


    Their housing proposals are circular and never related to the true costs.


    In the last weeks at least three votes in the HOC were lost by lest than 7 votes. If they were concerned with the economic interests of their voters SF would have attended. If they don't want to attend why not refuse to stand in the elections. They are elected to represent all their constituents not just their own voters. The greatest cheerleaders for their abstention policies must be their political enemies - Farage, ERG, Brexiteer Tories, DUP. Or are they?

    What chance a peerage for Mary Lou?

    Would you not see elements of nationalism within the support for a Brexit? It's hardly had it's day


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    #87
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,192 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Would you not see elements of nationalism within the support for a Brexit? It's hardly had it's day

    I would think that we are on the cusp.

    There has been a determined resurgence in nationalism from the extremes, be that Trump supporters, Brexiteers, Irish nationalists, Northern unionists, parties in France, Germany, Italy etc.

    The choice facing us now is regression and acceptance of that old-style nationalism or moving forward with international (indeed non-national) projects like the EU. For me, taking a full part in Europe takes priority over any national ambition.


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    #88
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    riddles wrote: »
    SF engage in the politics of protest. This is the easiest stage of all to operate. We are all experts at pointing out things that are wrong and indulging in mock indignation but creating positive solutions is the challenging part. This is SF’s greatest challenge.

    They reached a budget impasse in the north and pulled down the assembly under the disguise of the Irish language issue and the cash for ash stuff. It probably suited the DUP also to ensure they keep the budget subvention coming.

    Even with record highs numbers in employment there they have a personal debt crisis and need 10-11 billion a year budget top up.

    In short SF in power is most likely a fast track to become the next Venezuela. They lack any basic grounding in the realities of how mobile financial capital is and our dependency on inward investment. The pond life who vote for them here and in the North[/B] don’t realize the SF ‘free everything’ mantra is just nonsense.

    Amazing this is let go while a couple of posts later the mod says he has removed any offensive posts!!!, while this comment was also thanked by at least two Mods.
    Pond life indeed


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    #89
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I would think that we are on the cusp.

    There has been a determined resurgence in nationalism from the extremes, be that Trump supporters, Brexiteers, Irish nationalists, Northern unionists, parties in France, Germany, Italy etc.

    The choice facing us now is regression and acceptance of that old-style nationalism or moving forward with international (indeed non-national) projects like the EU. For me, taking a full part in Europe takes priority over any national ambition.

    With the exception being a united Ireland. I see that as a positive. Holding on to the current situation is regressive. There are different forms of nationalism. I wouldn't put Brexit/Trump/unionist/far right as covering what nationalism is.
    Either way, whatever ones view or politics, with Trump/Brexit etc. it's not near to having passed it's heyday. Nationalism can be a positive IMO, misused by some as is everything else.


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    #90
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    tipptom wrote: »
    Amazing this is let go while a couple of posts later the mod says he has removed any offensive posts!!!, while this comment was also thanked by at least two Mods.
    Pond life indeed

    The usual scaremongering. So putting SF in power will make us bankrupt, (been there, the party responsible invited into bed by FG) and the current state of N.I. is an example of SF's mismanagement, the party who would completely change the way it's currently governed if they had their way? :)

    Ironically mentioning that the SF 'free everything' is nonsense.


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    #91
    christy c
    Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭christy c


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    The usual scaremongering. So putting SF in power will make us bankrupt, (been there, the party responsible invited into bed by FG)

    That's the usual "look over there" response when SF's economic policies are mentioned. What's your view on them leaving aside your views on FF & FG?

    Personally I wouldn't go near them due to the nonsense they proposed around the time of the bailout. If we had taken that approach we would be in a far worse position than we are now IMO, even taking in to account our current problems.


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