Why would you vote SF?

Fionn1952

Snow Garden wrote: »

I am pretty positive it would be defeated very heavily in Connacht, Munster and Mid/South Leinster. Donegal would finally get to say Yes
I think people down south would simply not want to take on the historic problems and hatreds in NI.

Apart from your own opinions, have you seen anything to suggest that? I don't think I've ever seen a single poll anywhere near those numbers. Like I said, I don't think it's a sure thing it would pass, but those numbers just don't seem logical at all.

TCM

Can I ask the question Why would you not vote for SF.

The_Fitz

Snow Garden wrote: »

I am pretty positive it would be defeated very heavily in Connacht, Munster and Mid/South Leinster. Donegal would finally get to say Yes
I think people down south would simply not want to take on the historic problems and hatreds in NI.

Do you have anything to back this up?

Not saying you are wrong by the way, just interested to see where you have got your opinion from. Anything I have heard/experienced has pointed to the total opposite.

Snow Garden

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Apart from your own opinions, have you seen anything to suggest that? I don't think I've ever seen a single poll anywhere near those numbers. Like I said, I don't think it's a sure thing it would pass, but those numbers just don't seem logical at all.

Were there polls on it? I have never seen any. My numbers are pure guesswork but I have never met anyone in ROI that wanted a United Ireland. They cant even open Storment ffs. They are just trouble.

Snow Garden

TCM wrote: »

Can I ask the question Why would you not vote for SF.

One word for me....dishonesty. Since I reached the age of reason in mid 1970s, my perception of SF is utter dishonesty.

The_Fitz

Snow Garden wrote: »

Were there polls on it? I have never seen any. My numbers are pure guesswork but I have never met anyone in ROI that wanted a United Ireland. They cant even open Storment ffs. They are just trouble.

I have not met anyone in ROI who doesn't want a UI.

I'm sure there are loads (a rough guess of between 15-25% maybe). A recent poll found Connacht the province with the strongest support of a UI (think it was 70%).

Obviously polls are to be taken with a pinch of salt, but will it be that wrong?

Found the poll from last week.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/62-in-republic-want-irish-unity-in-brexit-aftermath-says-poll-38014469.html

Snow Garden

The_Fitz wrote: »

I have not met anyone in ROI who doesn't want a UI.

I'm sure there are loads (a rough guess of between 15-25% maybe). A recent poll found Connacht the province with the strongest support of a UI (think it was 70%).

Obviously polls are to be taken with a pinch of salt, but will it be that wrong?

Found the poll from last week.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/62-in-republic-want-irish-unity-in-brexit-aftermath-says-poll-38014469.html

Very surprised by that. There is the Brexit factor but 1000 is a small sample. The devil is in the detail. I would like to see a larger poll by RedC or similar. I wonder would FG/FF/Lab really support it with enthusiasm. Imagine the likes of Arlene in Leinster House...

TCM

Snow Garden wrote:

One word for me....dishonesty. Since I reached the age of reason in mid 1970s, my perception of SF is utter dishonesty.

Would SF be anymore dishonest that FF. I think not.

Snow Garden

TCM wrote: »

Would SF be anymore dishonest that FF. I think not.

Oh I think SF would certainly shade that one. Gerry would shade Bertie but not by much!

Charles Babbage

Snow Garden wrote: »

But wouldn't a United Ireland require a referendum in the republic? I think it would be defeated very heavily. 70/30.
Let Britain bankroll the craziness up there for another few decades.

Nonsense. Every opinion poll shows a majority in favour of a United Ireland and while people would gripe about it before and afterwards, the German example shows that national sentiment will greatly increase at the time.

The_Fitz

Snow Garden wrote: »

Very surprised by that. There is the Brexit factor but 1000 is a small sample. The devil is in the detail. I would like to see a larger poll by RedC or similar. I wonder would FG/FG/Lab really support it with enthusiasm. Imagine the likes of Arlene in Leinster House...

Would be amazing to see her there

I think they would, could you think of a scenario when FF or FG actively campaign against a UI?

Connacht in my experience would be one of the strongest supporters of reunification. Based on the square root of f**k all (a few polls and experiences), I'd say 70/30 in favour in the south.

The north now, who knows. You probably have that core 30% in favour. The middle classes who would see a potential increase in standard of living could go anywhere.

Never did I imagine this level of debate though.

Fionn1952

Snow Garden wrote: »

Were there polls on it? I have never seen any. My numbers are pure guesswork but I have never met anyone in ROI that wanted a United Ireland. They cant even open Storment ffs. They are just trouble.

Whether ignorance, dishonesty or hyperbole, if this is the standard of discussion, I'm out.

Enjoy

BonnieSituation

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Whether ignorance, dishonesty or hyperbole, if this is the standard of discussion, I'm out.

Enjoy

It's column a b and c i would say. The standard of discussion on the north since a certain thread was closed is absolutely abysmal.

Snow Garden

The_Fitz wrote: »

Would be amazing to see her there

I think they would, could you think of a scenario when FF or FG actively campaign against a UI?

Connacht in my experience would be one of the strongest supporters of reunification. Based on the square root of f**k all (a few polls and experiences), I'd say 70/30 in favour in the south.

The north now, who knows. You probably have that core 30% in favour. The middle classes who would see a potential increase in standard of living could go anywhere.

Never did I imagine this level of debate though.

I am a Galway man and I reckon there would be utter apathy here around a United Ireland referendum. People just don't seem to care either way. Brexit has brought the topic up for the first time in any serious way.

I don't think FF/FG would actively campaign against but they mightn't push too strong for it either. They would be wary about how well SF might do out of it.

There would be serious concern on the economic side. The UK plough a lot of money into NI and they have a very large % of the workforce in the public service. It would be interesting to see how that would be managed.

Northern Ireland receives more public money and generates less tax revenue per head than any other part of the UK.

The region was £9bn in the red, amounting to £5,052 per person, for the year 2008/09, according to figures just released by the Northern Ireland Executive.
That's almost three times the UK average of £1,785.

Even Scotland, which is often cited as a big beneficiary of public funds, fares much better than Northern Ireland.

There, the comparable figure is £2,000 less per person than in Northern Ireland.

Snow Garden

How things have changed since 2013

Poll: Just 3.8% want a united Ireland

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/poll-just-3-8-want-a-united-ireland-29584149.html

Poll: Just 3.8% want a united Ireland

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/poll-just-3-8-want-a-united-ireland-29584149.html

Damn statistics!


They are still saying No too up North...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#Opinion_Polling_on_Irish_Unification

(45% No to 32% Yes in latest Ipsos poll)

Snow Garden

The 2015 Behaviour & Attitudes poll in ROI is a classic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#Opinion_Polling_on_Irish_Unification

Q1. In the short to medium term, do you think Northern Ireland should Unify with the rest of Ireland? 36% Yes

Q2. Would you like to see a united Ireland in your lifetime? 66% Yes

Q3. Would you be in favour or against a united Ireland if it meant You would have to pay more tax? 31%

As I said before, the devil is in the detail. It's the economy stupid.

The_Fitz

Snow Garden wrote: »

I am a Galway man and I reckon there would be utter apathy here around a United Ireland referendum. People just don't seem to care either way. Brexit has brought the topic up for the first time in any serious way.

I don't think FF/FG would actively campaign against but they mightn't push too strong for it either. They would be wary about how well SF might do out of it.

There would be serious concern on the economic side. The UK plough a lot of money into NI and they have a very large % of the workforce in the public service. It would be interesting to see how that would be managed.

Maybe apathy, but do you think they would reject it? I know a lot of people in Galway, from city to country and all would be fervently in favour.

Would SF do all that well once a UI has been achieved? Once the people in the north have viable alternatives I would expect votes to go all over the shop.

Change needs to happen, the north has been left behind and left to rot. Standard of living is vastly below the south. Maybe it's time for the south to help their fellow countrymen to advance and enjoy a similar standard of living? Surely it can only benefit the island as a whole?

The main thing to be taken from the ongoing debate is that preparation needs to happen and it needs to happen right now. The Irish government needs to plan what would happen if that 51/49 result came in. Unionists need to be part of the preparation as well.

James Brown

To quote Enda Kenny's Fine Gael, 'We need change the way we do business'. And both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have shown they are unwilling to. We need to look at everything we do. Trying to service growing crises to placate the floating voters while carrying on with the same way we do business has never worked. If not SF we in the least need a new approach and FF/FG isn't it.

The_Fitz

Snow Garden wrote: »

The 2015 Behaviour & Attitudes poll in ROI is a classic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#Opinion_Polling_on_Irish_Unification

Q1. In the short to medium term, do you think Northern Ireland should Unify with the rest of Ireland? 36% Yes

Q2. Would you like to see a united Ireland in your lifetime? 66% Yes

Q3. Would you be in favour or against a united Ireland if it meant You would have to pay more tax? 31%

As I said before, the devil is in the detail. It's the economy stupid.

Only 44% said they would reject it, so both in the minority (obviously one more so than the other).

Would you reject a UI for a short term loss leading to a long term gain?

Snow Garden

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If not SF we in the least need a new approach and FF/FG isn't it.

My problem is that I cannot vote for SF, FF, FG or Labour. In one way I would like to see SF in power (via coalition) just to expose their policies especially the economic ones. Right now I am stuck with voting for Independents, Green or SDs. Many floating voters are crying out for a change.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: The topic of this thread is Sinn Fein. If it's going to degenerate into another generic NI thread it will be closed.

touts

The_Fitz wrote: »

I have not met anyone in ROI who doesn't want a UI.

I'm sure there are loads (a rough guess of between 15-25% maybe). A recent poll found Connacht the province with the strongest support of a UI (think it was 70%).

Obviously polls are to be taken with a pinch of salt, but will it be that wrong?

Found the poll from last week.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/62-in-republic-want-irish-unity-in-brexit-aftermath-says-poll-38014469.html

Depends on your circle of friends I suppose. I would say 80%+ of the people I know would vote against a United Ireland. It's not that they wouldn't want a United Ireland in theory it's just they don't believe we can remotely afford to pump money into the North like the UK do and also that there is likely to be a violent reaction from a sizable proportion of the Unionist community. If voters in the south are given a choice on a United Ireland then I think it will be soundly defeated which is why Sinn Fein are always only talking about a vote in the North and never mention an all island vote.

eagle eye

Sinn Fein will grow as a party now that Adams is gone. I know many people who said they would never vote Sinn Fein so long as he was involved. Now they might give SF their no.1 but if they give them a 2 or 3 it could make a huge difference.

I will never vote for them. I'm looking for a new party to vote for, slightly right of centre.

The_Fitz

touts wrote: »

Depends on your circle of friends I suppose. I would say 80%+ of the people I know would vote against a United Ireland. It's not that they wouldn't want a United Ireland in theory it's just they don't believe we can remotely afford to pump money into the North like the UK do and also that there is likely to be a violent reaction from a sizable proportion of the Unionist community. If voters in the south are given a choice on a United Ireland then I think it will be soundly defeated which is why Sinn Fein are always only talking about a vote in the North and never mention an all island vote.

I'm glad I'm not in your circle

SF actively campaigned for one island one vote did they not? By signing up to the GFA this ended that. They gave that up and gave into British demands for the principle of consent in a jurisdiction that they refused to recognise nor consented to its legitimacy. There are many things to beat SF with, but campaigning for the vote in the north is not one of them.

What do you measure soundly beaten as, hit me with a few numbers.

derfderf

Sin Fein always strike me as sneaky opportunists. They're playing Brexit well, and claim to want to represent the majority in NI that voted remain.
It never seems to be brought up that they campaigned for a no vote on all EU treaties. That I can recall anyway (Maastricht, Nice, and Lisbon).

The_Fitz

derfderf wrote: »

Sin Fein always strike me as sneaky opportunists. They're playing Brexit well, and claim to want to represent the majority in NI that voted remain.
It never seems to be brought up that they campaigned for a no vote on all EU treaties. That I can recall anyway (Maastricht, Nice, and Lisbon).

It's always brought up, where have you been?

SF wouldn't be SF without u-turning all over the shop.

James Brown

The_Fitz wrote: »

It's always brought up, where have you been?

SF wouldn't be SF without u-turning all over the shop.

Sounds like any political party to me sadly. TBF, they've stood by more than many others. Also we'll not get a good measure until they get in down south. As for the north, different situation and think they were right to call out DUP corruption even if playing politics it was their duty to do so IMO. Maybe if labour did similar regards Reilly's clinic allocation and the currently under investigation sweet Siteserv deal Labour might still be note worthy.

The_Fitz

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sounds like any political party to me sadly. TBF, they've stood by more than many others. Also we'll not get a good measure until they get in down south. As for the north, different situation and think they were right to call out DUP corruption even if playing politics it was their duty to do so IMO. Maybe if labour did similar regards Reilly's clinic allocation and the currently under investigation sweet Siteserv deal Labour might still be note worthy.

Of course they were right to call out the DUP. SF supporters overwhelmingly support their actions. It's a case of Stormont being a failed house for the Irish in the north. The picture is bigger now, there might be an end in sight.

The DUP has shown nothing but contempt to the Irish nationalist population in the north. All they had to do was give a little and their position might be a little less precarious.

sliabh 1956

I just saw a clip from the funeral of Lyra Mc Kee the look on Mary Lous and Forsters faces during t
he standing ovation sums up their attitude to the political crises in the North the could n't care less as long as they keep their tribes happy. They then felt shamed to join in hypocrites the lot of them . Fair play to the priest for putting it up to them.

James Brown

sliabh 1956 wrote: »

I just saw a clip from the funeral of Lyra Mc Kee the look on Mary Lous and Forsters faces during t
he standing ovation sums up their attitude to the political crises in the North the could n't care less as long as they keep their tribes happy. They then felt shamed to join in hypocrites the lot of them . Fair play to the priest for putting it up to them.

Neither the DUP nor Sinn Fein had anything to do with it. Also the current situation with Stormount likely didn't either.

maccored

derfderf wrote: »

Sin Fein always strike me as sneaky opportunists. They're playing Brexit well, and claim to want to represent the majority in NI that voted remain.
It never seems to be brought up that they campaigned for a no vote on all EU treaties. That I can recall anyway (Maastricht, Nice, and Lisbon).

whats wrong with voting against treaties that have points they disagree with? are they meant to agree with everything, because if they dont they dont want to be in the EU? Thats ridiculous talk.

McMurphy

sliabh 1956 wrote: »

I just saw a clip from the funeral of Lyra Mc Kee the look on Mary Lous and Forsters faces during t
he standing ovation sums up their attitude to the political crises in the North the could n't care less as long as they keep their tribes happy. They then felt shamed to join in hypocrites the lot of them . Fair play to the priest for putting it up to them.

What had Mary Lou McDonald/Arlene Foster or their respective political parties have to do with Ms McKee's tragic death?

She was shot dead by dissident Republicans (opposed to the GFA) who didn't appreciate the PSNI conducting searches in suspected dissidents homes in the hope of disruption to possibly displaying shows of strength at Easter Parades.

Unless you are blaming either of the two politicians for Easter, the Easter rising, or the PSNI searches, or even the dissidents firing indiscriminately?

• The dissidents oppose SF because the GFA.
• The dissidents oppose the DUP, because no need for me to be stating the bleeding obvious.
• The dissidents oppose the PSNI because see above.

It looks like you either don't have a baldy notion what you're on about, or tried to use Ms McKee's death to score some kind of political point, though I can't think what it would be.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

What had Mary Lou McDonald/Arlene Foster or their respective political parties have to do with Ms McKee's tragic death?

She was shot dead by dissident Republicans (opposed to the GFA) who didn't appreciate the PSNI conducting searches in suspected dissidents homes in the hope of disruption to possibly displaying shows of strength at Easter Parades.

Unless you are blaming either of the two politicians for Easter, the Easter rising, or the PSNI searches, or even the dissidents firing indiscriminately?

• The dissidents oppose SF because the GFA.
• The dissidents oppose the DUP, because no need for me to be stating the bleeding obvious.
• The dissidents oppose the PSNI because see above.

It looks like you either don't have a baldy notion what you're on about, or tried to use Ms McKee's death to score some kind of political point, though I can't think what it would be.

The DUP and SF have created a political vacuum in the North by refusing to put back in place the GFA institutions. They are jointly and equally to blame.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

The DUP and SF have created a political vacuum in the North by refusing to put back in place the GFA institutions. They are jointly and equally to blame.

Reread what I just wrote mere mins ago.

The dissidents oppose the GFA.

That political vacum would mean shag all to dissidents who oppose it.

I have literally seen nowhere else (media reports or otherwise) where anyone has tried to blame anyone for the senseless killing other than dissident Republicans.

On here it's the Shinners and the DUP fault.

Unbelievable.

splinter65

blanch152 wrote: »

The DUP and SF have created a political vacuum in the North by refusing to put back in place the GFA institutions. They are jointly and equally to blame.

But that had nothing to do with the journalist getting shot. Why do you think it did?

derfderf

maccored wrote: »

whats wrong with voting against treaties that have points they disagree with? are they meant to agree with everything, because if they dont they dont want to be in the EU? Thats ridiculous talk.

If people followed SF's recommendation Ireland wouldn't be in the EU/ECC.
They've disagreed with every treaty, and now they're promoting themselves as the party trying to keep NI. You don't see a problem with this?

If the wind blows the other way, and the DUP position themselves as a party for same sex marriage, you'd be happy enough with that?

McMurphy

derfderf wrote: »

If people followed SF's recommendation Ireland wouldn't be in the EU/ECC.
They've disagreed with every treaty, and now they're promoting themselves as the party trying to keep NI. You don't see a problem with this?

If the wind blows the other way, and the DUP position themselves as a party for same sex marriage, you'd be happy enough with that?

Disagreeing with a treaty doesn't make a party anti EU/ECC.

Just googled Sinn Fein wanting Ireland to leave either but not having much luck,

I found this.

Overall, Sinn F’s attitude towards the EU can be described as one of “critical engagement”. The party acknowledges the economic benefits of membership, so does not advocate leaving the EU or the Eurozone. Rather, it is a nationalist party that seeks to limit the extent to which supranational institutions like the Commission take power away from national governments.

from here


do you have any examples?

derfderf

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Disagreeing with a treaty doesn't make a party anti EU/ECC.

Just googled Sinn Fein wanting Ireland to leave either but not having much luck,

I found this.

from here


do you have any examples?

It's on wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

They opposed joining the ECC, and opposed every treaty since. Are you saying outside of the treaties they support the project?

To add, the version of the EU they opposed through rejection of the treaties is the exact same version they're now campaigning to keep NI a part of.

Snow Garden

derfderf wrote: »

It's on wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

They opposed joining the ECC, and opposed every treaty since. Are you saying outside of the treaties they support the project?

To add, the version of the EU they opposed through rejection of the treaties is the exact same version they're now campaigning to keep NI a part of.

I always have the perception that SF want to take us back to the 50s. 'Ourselves Alone' and all that. They have been anti-EU for decades (unless it suits them). They are constantly using the Irish language in a pretentious way - changing their names and speaking Irish randomly and unneccessarily in the media. Yeah yeah it's our national language but English is far far more widely understood. I mean I cannot believe an Irish language Act is a red line issue for the Stormont reopening. The mind boggles. Would they waste even more money from their magical money tree on the Irish language if they got to power? That kind of segregated nonsense just alienates normal people/voters.

FrancieBrady

Snow Garden wrote: »

I always have the perception that SF want to take us back to the 50s. 'Ourselves Alone' and all that. They have been anti-EU for decades (unless it suits them). They are constantly using the Irish language in a pretentious way - changing their names and speaking Irish randomly and unneccessarily in the media. Yeah yeah it's our national language but English is far far more widely understood. I mean I cannot believe an Irish language Act is a red line issue for the Stormont reopening. The mind boggles. Would they waste even more money from their magical money tree on the Irish language if they got to power? That kind of segregated nonsense just alienates normal people/voters.

It's a bit trite and simplistic to say that the only block to Stormont getting back is an Irish Language Act.
The absence of one is an indicator of deeper issues.

*I personally think advocating rights for LGBT people and for Same Sex Marriage is anything but a 50's mentality.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

The DUP and SF have created a political vacuum in the North by refusing to put back in place the GFA institutions. They are jointly and equally to blame.

its not the vacuum thats caused the riots.

maccored

derfderf wrote: »

If people followed SF's recommendation Ireland wouldn't be in the EU/ECC.
They've disagreed with every treaty, and now they're promoting themselves as the party trying to keep NI. You don't see a problem with this?

If the wind blows the other way, and the DUP position themselves as a party for same sex marriage, you'd be happy enough with that?

SF have always pointed out the issues with being in the EU. In saying that, they wish to be - and have always stated they wish to be - part of the EU. Thats healthy

Snow Garden

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's a bit trite and simplistic to say that the only block to Stormont getting back is an Irish Language Act.
The absence of one is an indicator of deeper issues.

*I personally think advocating rights for LGBT people and for Same Sex Marriage is anything but a 50's mentality.

Fair point and Mary Lou has been superb on recent referendums around SSM and Repeal8th. Arlene and here crew are in the 1800s when it comes to those issues.

Still though, the Irish language being a red line issue? It looks petty and pretentious.

FrancieBrady

Snow Garden wrote: »

Fair point and Mary Lou has been superb on recent referendums around SSM and Repeal8th. Arlene and here crew are in the 1800s when it comes to those issues.

Still though, the Irish language being a red line issue? It looks petty and pretentious.

But it isn't just about the Irish Language, that was the straw that broke the back of the powersharing arrangement and revealed to those who were not watching closely that it wasn't really full and respectful 'powersharing' at all.

This stagnation of the GFA process (that concept is important-that it is meant to be a process) has been ongoing for a good few years now and was pointed to several times.

blackwhite

maccored wrote: »

SF have always pointed out the issues with being in the EU. In saying that, they wish to be - and have always stated they wish to be - part of the EU. Thats healthy

That's patently not true. They campaigned against joining it in the first place.

Whatever their position now, it's a barefaced lie to try and claim that they have "always" wanted to be part of the EU

maccored

blackwhite wrote: »

That's patently not true. They campaigned against joining it in the first place.

Whatever their position now, it's a barefaced lie to try and claim that they have "always" wanted to be part of the EU

well they've been claiming that for at least a few decades now. besides - ireland joined the EEC in 1973. Are you telling me SF campaiging in 1972 against the EEC bears any resemblance to SF now? Jaysus - you really are stretching things

jm08

derfderf wrote: »

It's on wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

They opposed joining the ECC, and opposed every treaty since. Are you saying outside of the treaties they support the project?

To add, the version of the EU they opposed through rejection of the treaties is the exact same version they're now campaigning to keep NI a part of.

Would that not be the 'Officials' which became the Sinn Fein - the Workers Party (Cathal Goulding & Tomas MacGiolla).


Provisional Sinn Fein would not have got much of a hearing up to the mid-90s until the broadcasting ban was lifted.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

That's patently not true. They campaigned against joining it in the first place.

Whatever their position now, it's a barefaced lie to try and claim that they have "always" wanted to be part of the EU

Didn't Labour also campaign against it?

blackwhite

maccored wrote: »

well they've been claiming that for at least a few decades now. besides - ireland joined the EEC in 1973. Are you telling me SF campaiging in 1972 against the EEC bears any resemblance to SF now? Jaysus - you really are stretching things

I'm not the one making false claims on the thread.

Wasn't it you that claimed previously that in September 2016 Sinn Fein were unaware that Article 40 was going to be invoked - 3 months after the Leave vote had passed? And you accuse others of "stretching things"!

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't Labour also campaign against it?

They did. But I haven't seen anyone here perpetuating the lie that Labour have always be in favour of EU membership.

Funny how you are immediately trying to deflect form your fellow travelers postings bare-faced falsehoods with some good old-fashioned whataboutery :rolleyes: