Border Poll discussion

downcow wrote: »

Well Scotland is not independent. I personally am not that fussed on joining with the Scots. I enjoy the diversity of the UK and appreciate all regions. Had a holiday recently in Torquay and also a few years ago in kings Lyn, not to mention Edinburgh and Stirling. and love the diversity

Torquay was beautiful. And was surprised to find King Billy statue in Paignton:-)

The Great Pyramid of Giza, The Coliseum in Rome, The Acropolis of Athens, The Taj Mahal, The Great Wall of China.....a statue of King Billy outside Torquay....one of those things isnt like the others.

Perhaps you'd be impressed by some things should you expand your horizons a little. Theres a whole world out there outside your precious United Kingdom.

I would happily list Stonehenge with any of the above (bar one, of course)

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. You sound like some friends who have who try and tell me which wine it is ok to like. You need to stop worrying about what people think or fitting in with the norm. I enjoyed seeing King Billy in Paignton but I didn’t fall to my knees and worship him.
I visited Norte dame in 2016 when over at the euros and it is without question the most impressive building I have ever been in. But tomorrow I might be more inspired by a sand castle made by a kid.
Open your eyes and enjoy everything around you. Sometimes an overnight shelter built by young marginalised young people is far more impressive than Stonehenge.
It’s interesting that you think I need to broaden my horizons!

And I am still more impressed with some 11th night boney constructions that with stonehenge

Ah now, I was being light hearted with that one, Downcow. Only a bit of teasing. Outside of Ireland, and perhaps France, I've seen more sights in the UK than anywhere else.

I may not agree with Unionism, or the continued partition of Ireland, but I have no problem with acknowledging that anywhere with the UK's historical significance is full of interesting sights.

A shelter built by marginalised young people is certainly impressive, perhaps not so impressive as Stonehenge to me, but for entirely different reasons (though your argument there surely applies a thousand times over to your statue of King Billy...)

Also, I'd never tell you which wine to like, might suggest a few Scotches to try though.

downcow wrote: »

Reading many post hear, I would find it informative if I could get a handle on the all-Island stuff.

Are you guys suggesting that land masses should only contain one nation (in a perfect world)?
...and I’m not trying to be smart and trap you so I’ll give you my next question. Should gb be one island? Do you beloevr in the right of the basque, Catalans, palistinians etc to self determination ?
I genuinely really struggle with the starting point of many on here. Which seems to be that Ireland should be united and somehow partition is just plain wrong?

Depends on the size of the land mass in my view. For what it's worth I do think that Britain should be one country. For two islands the size of ours ( Britain and Ireland) it doesn't make much sense for each to be divided. Different thing when it comes to the other examples you mention, which are part of larger continents.

downcow wrote: »

We do though need to do that with total compassion to the minority nationalist population.

We? As far as I know the numbers of people from a PUL background are roughly equal to those of a CNR background and both are less than 50% making both minorities of the total population.

Unionists need to start selling the merits of UK jurisdiction to the majority from now on and they're doing a truly terrible job of it.

downcow wrote: »

Ok so you were starting to sound like people who tell me which wine I should like the taste of. I guess you have met similar people.
Well I am happy that you enjoy tajmahal etc.
I enjoy some fairly simple stuff. I am now to old to be arsed staying up to midnight for a fire to be lit but I used to absolutely love it. And i wasn’t feeling in the slightest sectarian.
I just feel it’s sad that some nationalists can’t concentrate on enjoying their culture eg big Gaelic games, which i imagine are great crack,
Just let our young people get on with what they love and enjoy.
I have never ever heard a unionist young person express any problem with Gaelic games or even notice that they are happening.
Let the communities on this island get on with their cultural stuff whether Ramadan, st paddy’s, 12th whatever.

In all seriousness, I popped along very briefly to see what all the fuss was about to the 11th night fire in the Village in Belfast about ten years back, I'm far from convinced that what I saw there had anything to do with the young people. I'm sure some are, but I'm certain there are plenty which are absolutely not suitable for youths. You say you weren't feeling sectarian....in my lifetime, I've personally never seen nor heard of a single 11th night fire that wasn't adorned in a very sectarian manner, so I don't know how you dissociate the two.

Regarding never hearing a young Unionist say a bad word about Gaelic games.....I presume you've never heard of Jamie Bryson then so? I wont bring up your own past critiques of what goes on with the GAA, solely because you specified young people.

Membership of the UK sells itself with nhs

It's not nearly as good as it once was but it is an asset. I'd like to see a single tier NHS style system implemented in a UI, an all Ireland NHS.

diversity

In the north? Don't make me laugh. The north is one of the least diverse, most backward, places in these islands and much of that is due to unionist politicians.

major world economy

London and the south of England are wealthy. The north is an economic basket case.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

In all seriousness, I popped along very briefly to see what all the fuss was about to the 11th night fire in the Village in Belfast about ten years back, I'm far from convinced that what I saw there had anything to do with the young people. I'm sure some are, but I'm certain there are plenty which are absolutely not suitable for youths. You say you weren't feeling sectarian....in my lifetime, I've personally never seen nor heard of a single 11th night fire that wasn't adorned in a very sectarian manner, so I don't know how you dissociate the two..

I attended a bonfire in sandy row 20 years ago and it could certainly be described as sectarian. But I also attended a st pats parade in Downpatrick and it was equally as sectarian. Ok it wasn’t dark and prob therefore not as scary but the sentiments were exactly the same.
I have also been to several other bonfires and (I almost typed that they weren’t sectarian but I like honesty) - it was the unionist community partying so i guess it was sectarian but not nasty and intended to exclude.
But I don’t think you guys get it that your fleadhs and gaa gatherings are equally as sectarian

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I think we all know why you are ducking and diving such a simple question.
You've obviously been searching Google again to come up with these quotes so why not just name one of these mystery "Orange bands" that have received funding
And I promise you I will not say funding is not really funding.
I will be completely honest in my response to your answer. And I will apologise if that's appropriate . But I warn you again I am going to be as pedantic as you were when I made the original comment

I work in the community sector, so I have a fair idea where to look for that kind of information.

Easily found if you know where to look.

In 2016/17 alone the following got funding:

Armagh Old Boys' Silver Band 5,000
Augharan Pipe Band 4,950
Aughnahoory Pipe Band 5,000
Aughnaskeagh Silver Band 1,980
Ballyclare Protestant Boys 3,060
Ballygowan Pipe Band 3,685
Ballymartin Pipe Band 5,000
Ballymena and Harryville Young Conqueror 5,000
Ballymoughan Flute Band 3,648
Ballynarrig Pride Of Orange Flute Band Limavady 3,816
Ballyreagh Silver Band 5,000
Barr Jubilee Pipe Band 4,275
Belfast Citadel Salvation Army Band 5,000
Boveedy Flute Band 4,950
Boveva Flute Band 5,000
Brackey Flute Band 2,811
Braniel Loyal Flute Band 5,000
Brantry Pipe Band 3,787
Brookeborough Flute Band 3,759
Burntollet Sons of Ulster 4,406
Carnagh Accordion Band 5,000
Churchill Flute Band 4,690
Cleland Memorial Pipe Band 4,347
Cloughfin Pipe Band 4,500
Colmcille Pipe Band 4,481
Comber Brass 4,800
Corkley Pipe Band 3,195
Rising Sons of William Flute Band 4,552
Cranfield Accordion Band 5,000
Drumquin Pipe Band 5,000
Dyan Pipe Band 3,674
Gilnahirk Pipe Band 5,000
Hollymount Pipe Band 2,764
Killycopple Accordion Band 4,668
Killymuck Accordion Band 4,830
Kingsmills Flute Band 5,000
Kirkistown Pipe Band 4,935
Laganvalley flute band 5,000
Lisnamulligan Pipe Band 5,000
Maghera Sons of William 4,707
McMaster Memorial Accordion Band (Kilwaughter) 4,334
Millar Memorial Flute Band 4,342
Moneymore Flute Band 1,365
Mosside Independent Accordion Band 5,000
Mountjoy Pipe Band 4,444
Mullabrack Accordion Band 4,950
Mullinagoagh Pipe Band 2,895
Mulnagore Coronation Accordion Band 4,715
Pride of the Maine Flute Band 5,000
Pride of The Park Flute Band Armoy 5,000
Pride of the Shore Flute Band Musical & Cultural Society 5,000

I won't claim that every one of these is what you would accept as an "orange band", but I am sure that most of them are. At a rough count, that is over £200,000 for a whole host of different orange bands in just one year. This is Arts Council funding. I am sure they get funding from other sources too, given my experience it would be surprising if there were not several different funding streams available to them.

blanch152 wrote: »

They speak Donegal Irish in Donegal, it is a different dialect to that which was spoken in the North until it died out in the North.

Try telling the people of Ring that the Irish they speak is Munster Irish, the same as that spoken in Dingle.

The Irish spoken in Ring is Munster Irish, there are some minor differences between the Irish spoken in Ring and West Kerry, but not much really. You are talking about slight differences in pronuncation of the same dialect of the same language.

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I work in the community sector, so I have a fair idea where to look for that kind of information.

Easily found if you know where to look.

In 2016/17 alone the following got funding:

Armagh Old Boys' Silver Band 5,000
Augharan Pipe Band 4,950
Aughnahoory Pipe Band 5,000
Aughnaskeagh Silver Band 1,980
Ballyclare Protestant Boys 3,060
Ballygowan Pipe Band 3,685
Ballymartin Pipe Band 5,000
Ballymena and Harryville Young Conqueror 5,000
Ballymoughan Flute Band 3,648
Ballynarrig Pride Of Orange Flute Band Limavady 3,816
Ballyreagh Silver Band 5,000
Barr Jubilee Pipe Band 4,275
Belfast Citadel Salvation Army Band 5,000
Boveedy Flute Band 4,950
Boveva Flute Band 5,000
Brackey Flute Band 2,811
Braniel Loyal Flute Band 5,000
Brantry Pipe Band 3,787
Brookeborough Flute Band 3,759
Burntollet Sons of Ulster 4,406
Carnagh Accordion Band 5,000
Churchill Flute Band 4,690
Cleland Memorial Pipe Band 4,347
Cloughfin Pipe Band 4,500
Colmcille Pipe Band 4,481
Comber Brass 4,800
Corkley Pipe Band 3,195
Rising Sons of William Flute Band 4,552
Cranfield Accordion Band 5,000
Drumquin Pipe Band 5,000
Dyan Pipe Band 3,674
Gilnahirk Pipe Band 5,000
Hollymount Pipe Band 2,764
Killycopple Accordion Band 4,668
Killymuck Accordion Band 4,830
Kingsmills Flute Band 5,000
Kirkistown Pipe Band 4,935
Laganvalley flute band 5,000
Lisnamulligan Pipe Band 5,000
Maghera Sons of William 4,707
McMaster Memorial Accordion Band (Kilwaughter) 4,334
Millar Memorial Flute Band 4,342
Moneymore Flute Band 1,365
Mosside Independent Accordion Band 5,000
Mountjoy Pipe Band 4,444
Mullabrack Accordion Band 4,950
Mullinagoagh Pipe Band 2,895
Mulnagore Coronation Accordion Band 4,715
Pride of the Maine Flute Band 5,000
Pride of The Park Flute Band Armoy 5,000
Pride of the Shore Flute Band Musical & Cultural Society 5,000

I won't claim that every one of these is what you would accept as an "orange band", but I am sure that most of them are. At a rough count, that is over £200,000 for a whole host of different orange bands in just one year. This is Arts Council funding. I am sure they get funding from other sources too, given my experience it would be surprising if there were not several different funding streams available to them.

I googled a few of those and they are attached to a LOL. Can't see how they fail the 'orange band' test.

RobMc59 wrote: »

They have more in common than any other proposed alliance or annexation -a lot of people in NI probably have more affinity with Scotland than Dublin and that would possibly be reciprocated.

There is no will in Scottish politics to become independent and adopt Northern Ireland. Just because the NI would be ok with it does not mean the Scottish would. I have not heard a single person in Scotland propose this and I doubt I ever will.

RobMc59 wrote: »

I liked your suggestion a few weeks ago about the possibility of a self governing Ulster with maybe Donegal in the mix-I wonder if there would be any appetite for an Ulster alliance with an independent Scotland-they have historical ties and that may be a better fit than rule by Dublin.

Off topic but

To be honest this is not something even discussed in Scotland. During the indy ref campaign, if anything the Scots were looking east rather than west - i.e Scandinavia. There is also a strong connection there and most Scots would be happy for an independent Scotland to be like those countries.

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think your earlier suggestion of joint UK/Ireland sovereignty would be a better option.There are a lot of people in NI who are and identify as British and don’t want that to change.Unless there was a landslide referendum result in favour of a UI there may be massive civil unrest or even civil war.

So we should change the GFA to stop potential violence that may spring up because people didn't like the result of a mandated democratic vote?

That hardly seems fair now does it.

I wonder if Nationalists were the ones threatening violence would you be so considerate to their complaints. I highly doubt it.

RobMc59 wrote: »

If NI was to leave the union why couldn't they pursue an alliance with an independent Scotland?Is there a reason why this would be a none starter?

Simply because the only constitutional way the north leaves the UK is to join a UI.

Also, you do know that there's Nationalists in the north, a substantial amount at that, who will have a say.

Why would they suddenly do an about face when the dream is right there?

All of this nonsense talk is unionist Dreamland stuff as we near the scary scary border poll.