Border Poll discussion

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I've never been to a single GAA match or Fleadh that involved burning union flags or the likes....I've yet to see an 11th night bonfire that didn't involve burning Irish tricolours.

One could argue that the small number of GAA clubs named in memory of IRA members is sectarian, I wouldn't disagree (yada yada yada, Loyalist bands named after Loyalist paramilitaries whataboutery), but I'd see a significant difference between remembering the dead, and burning effigies and symbols which represent, 'themmuns'.

For the record, how many Union flags did you see set on fire at a St Patrick's parade? Or are you just considering anything Irish sectarian? My issue with 11th night/12th parading isn't anything to do with the celebration or acknowledgement of your culture, it's to do with the active and intentional disrespect towards mine, from the aforementioned fire antics, through to marching in circles in front of Catholic churches and playing the innocent fool with, 'Sloop John B'.

Fionn. You are not comparing like with like. You chose the most unorganised, spontaneous element of unionist culture which happens in the early hours of the morning following drinking and you compare it with an event like a gaa parade or a midday parade.
Compare like with like eg st pats parade with twelfth parade or and 11th bonfire with a 15th aug bonefire.
They are much more alike. Except I have never seen anything remotely like the burning of a tricolour at twelfth but I think we all know union flags are burn at some st pats parades

breatheme

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. You are not comparing like with like. You chose the most unorganised, spontaneous element of unionist culture which happens in the early hours of the morning following drinking and you compare it with an event like a gaa parade or a midday parade.
Compare like with like eg st pats parade with twelfth parade or and 11th bonfire with a 15th aug bonefire.
They are much more alike. Except I have never seen anything remotely like the burning of a tricolour at twelfth but I think we all know union flags are burn at some st pats parades

I have never seen this, and a quick google gave me new articles about this happening once in 2015... which happened in Belfast. And it happened because there were Unionists protests.

So no?

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Matt. Re the question, why is it wrong and do you believe other areas seeking self determination are wrong eg Catalans, Palestinians, French Canadians, etc etc.

There were two questions. I answered one.
On the second, yes, if sections of a country believe they are/should be separate they've a right to pursue that. It's a different scenario to N.I.

downcow wrote: »

... and also, can I assure you I have far more in common with Scots and English people that I have with southerners. I feel at home when in Scotland. I feel I am in a very different place when in the south.
So try not to tell me who I have most in common with.
I’m ok if you said - I wish you had more in common with southerners but please don’t second guess me

You asked generally. I don't know you. You asked a general question and got a general answer.

downcow wrote: »

This is more than a bit patronising.

Not in my opinion. Again, you asked a simple general question and got an answer in the same vein.

downcow wrote: »

This is one big reason I think unionists will never accept their country being taken over by those that think they have a Devine right to

Well unfortunately those seeking a UI obviously feel we do. And Unionists want what they want. Are you suggesting that we give up the idea of a UI and then Unionists might come on-board? FYI: It's not a country it's an Irish Province partially under foreign rule.

downcow wrote: »

Well Scotland is not independent. I personally am not that fussed on joining with the Scots. I enjoy the diversity of the UK and appreciate all regions. Had a holiday recently in Torquay and also a few years ago in kings Lyn, not to mention Edinburgh and Stirling. and love the diversity

Torquay was beautiful. And was surprised to find King Billy statue in Paignton:-)

I've family in Exeter. Lovely area. Just so you know they'd view us as Irish and we'd both be as welcome and allowed roam free to Wales, Scotland etc. Actually I've been to a wedding in Scotland were the brides father was a wizard or something, (genuinely don't recall the term but a senior post) of the Orange Lodge. Nice family. They see that as their culture yet were super nice to my friends and I over for the event. Don't see why that can't be in a United Ireland.

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I work in the community sector, so I have a fair idea where to look for that kind of information.

Easily found if you know where to look.

In 2016/17 alone the following got funding:

Armagh Old Boys' Silver Band 5,000
Augharan Pipe Band 4,950
Aughnahoory Pipe Band 5,000
Aughnaskeagh Silver Band 1,980
Ballyclare Protestant Boys 3,060
Ballygowan Pipe Band 3,685
Ballymartin Pipe Band 5,000
Ballymena and Harryville Young Conqueror 5,000
Ballymoughan Flute Band 3,648
Ballynarrig Pride Of Orange Flute Band Limavady 3,816
Ballyreagh Silver Band 5,000
Barr Jubilee Pipe Band 4,275
Belfast Citadel Salvation Army Band 5,000
Boveedy Flute Band 4,950
Boveva Flute Band 5,000
Brackey Flute Band 2,811
Braniel Loyal Flute Band 5,000
Brantry Pipe Band 3,787
Brookeborough Flute Band 3,759
Burntollet Sons of Ulster 4,406
Carnagh Accordion Band 5,000
Churchill Flute Band 4,690
Cleland Memorial Pipe Band 4,347
Cloughfin Pipe Band 4,500
Colmcille Pipe Band 4,481
Comber Brass 4,800
Corkley Pipe Band 3,195
Rising Sons of William Flute Band 4,552
Cranfield Accordion Band 5,000
Drumquin Pipe Band 5,000
Dyan Pipe Band 3,674
Gilnahirk Pipe Band 5,000
Hollymount Pipe Band 2,764
Killycopple Accordion Band 4,668
Killymuck Accordion Band 4,830
Kingsmills Flute Band 5,000
Kirkistown Pipe Band 4,935
Laganvalley flute band 5,000
Lisnamulligan Pipe Band 5,000
Maghera Sons of William 4,707
McMaster Memorial Accordion Band (Kilwaughter) 4,334
Millar Memorial Flute Band 4,342
Moneymore Flute Band 1,365
Mosside Independent Accordion Band 5,000
Mountjoy Pipe Band 4,444
Mullabrack Accordion Band 4,950
Mullinagoagh Pipe Band 2,895
Mulnagore Coronation Accordion Band 4,715
Pride of the Maine Flute Band 5,000
Pride of The Park Flute Band Armoy 5,000
Pride of the Shore Flute Band Musical & Cultural Society 5,000

I won't claim that every one of these is what you would accept as an "orange band", but I am sure that most of them are. At a rough count, that is over £200,000 for a whole host of different orange bands in just one year. This is Arts Council funding. I am sure they get funding from other sources too, given my experience it would be surprising if there were not several different funding streams available to them.

Let’s take your figure £200,000. Let’s double. Let’s add another £100,000. Let’s double it again. Now that should more than cover any funding that is making it to 600+ bands ie £1million.
Now let’s compare that to the funding going to into just one aspect of Irish culture close on £30million per year https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/190m-spent-on-irish-language-in-just-seven-years-1-8388187/amp

downcow

Matt Barrett wrote: »

yes, if sections of a country believe they are/should be separate they've a right to pursue that. It's a different scenario to N.I. .

Could you explain you rationale here?
And is NI the only one you wouldn’t hive that right to?

downcow

breatheme wrote: »

I have never seen this, and a quick google gave me new articles about this happening once in 2015... which happened in Belfast. And it happened because there were Unionists protests.

So no?

Well you said tricolours are burned at the twelfth and I said I wasn’t aware of that but that union flags get burned at st pats parades. You went and researched my statement and proved it accurate. Should I guess that you also researched you own statement and found it to be inaccurate?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Well you said tricolours are burned at the twelfth and I said I wasn’t aware of that but that union flags get burned at st pats parades. You went and researched my statement and proved it accurate. Should I guess that you also researched you own statement and found it to be inaccurate?

You have never seen a tricolour burned in or around the Twelfth?

Are you having a giraffe?

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

If there is a border referendum I would be disappointed if the result was to leave but that would be that-if it was a close run thing either way there maybe unrest-if the vote was 51% to 49% to remain do you think some republicans would be upset to see the dream fading and might cause civil unrest?Either side could do this.

It seems highly unlikely that republicans would start up given that all a defeat would do would continue the status quo. And such a close defeat would demonstrate that it was in fact not that far away.

It would be counterproductive to act the maggot. To win over 1% of the electorate wouldn't be too hard I'd imagine at that stage. And we'd have about 7 years, as per the GFA to do it.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Well you said tricolours are burned at the twelfth and I said I wasn’t aware of that but that union flags get burned at st pats parades. You went and researched my statement and proved it accurate. Should I guess that you also researched you own statement and found it to be inaccurate?

I find that unbelievable (literally) tbh.

And it's not only Irish flags, Polish flags have been burnt, LGBT flags, Palestinian flags, (I have even heard of ivory coast flags being confused with tricolours being torched)

There's effigies, of the Pope, Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness, and even reports of a Oscar Knox that also have been burnt.

Culture.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Could you explain you rationale here?
And is NI the only one you wouldn’t hive that right to?

Is there agitation in NI to be an independent state? It's not at all an analogue to self determination movements in other countries.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. You are not comparing like with like. You chose the most unorganised, spontaneous element of unionist culture which happens in the early hours of the morning following drinking and you compare it with an event like a gaa parade or a midday parade.
Compare like with like eg st pats parade with twelfth parade or and 11th bonfire with a 15th aug bonefire.
They are much more alike. Except I have never seen anything remotely like the burning of a tricolour at twelfth but I think we all know union flags are burn at some st pats parades

What's a GAA parade?

Are you yet again equating a national sporting organisation with a sectarian organisation bloke the OO?

BonnieSituation

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I find that unbelievable (literally) tbh.

And it's not only Irish flags, Polish flags have been burnt, LGBT flags, Palestinian flags, (I have even heard of ivory coast flags being confused with tricolours being torched)

There's effigies, of the Pope, Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness, and even Oscar Knox that also have been burnt.

Culture.

He probably thinks KAT is a misspelling for a feline!

Dytalus

downcow wrote: »

Well you said tricolours are burned at the twelfth and I said I wasn’t aware of that but that union flags get burned at st pats parades. You went and researched my statement and proved it accurate. Should I guess that you also researched you own statement and found it to be inaccurate?

For the record, I too wanted to research both to do comparisons and found only one bit of evidence about UJ burning at Paddy's Day Parades (here, for anyone interested) back in 2015. Frankly disgraceful. Unionists protested the day's celebrations (I don't agree with their protest motivations, but that's their right and it was a peaceful one) and instead of ignoring them some folks sour the day's celebrations (which, it should be noted, unionist and republican alike were enjooying up until then).

BUT, by comparison, this was one isolated incident, carried out by a small number of people (and by the picture they look to be children. Kids are idiots at best). Whether you buy into the "they were provoked" argument is up to you (I agree they think they were 'provoked' insofar as they didn't like what they were seeing with the protests. I don't think that justifies or excuses what they did in response).

Meanwhile....

Here's a BBC article about the commonplace practice of burning flags at bonfires (including the papal flag, in case there was any doubt about the sectarian nature of the whole practice). Admittedly, it's from 2013. Let's see if there's anything more recent.

Here's one from 2015. Which also illustrated the danger of having bonfires without proper supervision.

And from 2016.

Protestant, Northern irish boxer condems burning tricolours in bonfires. 2019.

Photos showing the flags and images of politicians. 2017 Article itself goes into detail about the dangers of the bonfires. (Holy hell look at the size of that first one).

Another picture near the bottom showing EU and Irish flags being burned. 2018

And again. 2018.

BonnieSituation

Dytalus wrote: »

For the record, I too wanted to research both to do comparisons and found only one bit of evidence about UJ burning at Paddy's Day Parades (here, for anyone interested) back in 2015. Frankly disgraceful. Unionists protested the day's celebrations (I don't agree with their protest motivations, but that's their right and it was a peaceful one) and instead of ignoring them some folks sour the day's celebrations (which, it should be noted, unionist and republican alike were enjooying up until then).

BUT, by comparison, this was one isolated incident, carried out by a small number of people (and by the picture they look to be children. Kids are idiots at best). Whether you buy into the "they were provoked" argument is up to you.

Meanwhile....

Here's a BBC article about the commonplace practice of burning flags at bonfires (including the papal flag, in case there was any doubt about the sectarian nature of the whole practice). Admittedly, it's from 2013. Let's see if there's anything more recent.

Here's one from 2015. Which also illustrated the danger of having bonfires without proper supervision.

And from 2016.

Protestant, Northern irish boxer condems burning tricolours in bonfires. 2019.

Photos showing the flags and images of politicians. 2017 Article itself goes into detail about the dangers of the bonfires. (Holy hell look at the size of that first one).

Another picture near the bottom showing EU and Irish flags being burned. 2018

And again. 2018.

I mean he'd have to click on those links to get evidence. And based on past experience he's not a fan of viewing evidence that disproves his delusion.

BluePlanet

This is so pathetic. The ONLY people on this island burning Union Jacks are your immediate neighbours within NI. Themuns that your side were supposed to win-over with the all the advantages and virtues of being a member of the UK.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Could you explain you rationale here?
And is NI the only one you wouldn’t hive that right to?

We would need a UI before they could seek to become a separate state/country. Also the current N.I. is artificial in comparison. Any differences between the occupied portion of Ulster and the rest of Ulster didn't evolve naturally or culturally and were certainly not there before any occupation/partition. It's not even the complete province. Can a part of Cornwall seek to be an independent country?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Let’s take your figure £200,000. Let’s double. Let’s add another £100,000. Let’s double it again. Now that should more than cover any funding that is making it to 600+ bands ie £1million.
Now let’s compare that to the funding going to into just one aspect of Irish culture close on £30million per year https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/190m-spent-on-irish-language-in-just-seven-years-1-8388187/amp

Three quarters of that figure is for education via Irish - I'm guessing that the state is compelled to fund education. Also, you can try all you want to compare Irish culture, which is open to whoever wants to join in, with what is essentially and anti-Irish counter-culture in the form of the Orange Order and unionist bonfires/marching but nobody is buying it.

breatheme

downcow wrote: »

Well you said tricolours are burned at the twelfth and I said I wasn’t aware of that but that union flags get burned at st pats parades. You went and researched my statement and proved it accurate. Should I guess that you also researched you own statement and found it to be inaccurate?

Or maybe I know it to be accurate from firsthand experience.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Also, you can try all you want to compare Irish culture, which is open to whoever wants to join in, with what is essentially and anti-Irish counter-culture in the form of the Orange Order and unionist bonfires/marching but nobody is buying it.

Irish culture and language were essentially dead by the middle of the nineteenth century. The revival of the Irish language and culture driven by the Gaelic League and others towards the end of the nineteenth century was essentially and anti-British counter culture to the culture of the times.

Ironic to see the juxtaposition now.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Irish culture and language were essentially dead by the middle of the nineteenth century. The revival of the Irish language and culture driven by the Gaelic League and others towards the end of the nineteenth century was essentially and anti-British counter culture to the culture of the times.

Ironic to see the juxtaposition now.

You're confusing the resurgence of Irish culture despite the best efforts of the British as a 'essentially anti-British counter culture'? That's just plain ignorant Blanch, if a genuine belief.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

Irish culture and language were essentially dead by the middle of the nineteenth century. The revival of the Irish language and culture driven by the Gaelic League and others towards the end of the nineteenth century was essentially and anti-British counter culture to the culture of the times.

Ironic to see the juxtaposition now.

So now trying to rescue a culture decimated by malevolent British colonialism is anti-British? What a hateful position to adopt.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Irish culture and language were essentially dead by the middle of the nineteenth century. The revival of the Irish language and culture driven by the Gaelic League and others towards the end of the nineteenth century was essentially and anti-British counter culture to the culture of the times.

Ironic to see the juxtaposition now.

What is it you dislike about the Irish language and culture Blanch? You can't seem to help to help yourself from taking negative pops at it, as evidenced in numerous occasions on the site, across numerous thread's.

As a keen GAA spectator I find this quite odd tbh, someone with a keen interest in Gaelic Athletic Association sports seemingly has a strong dislike to the Gaelic Language.

Is this a case that because Nationallists and or Republicans are pushing for a language act (as are all of the political party's in the north except the DUP) that you feel compelled to push against it and denounce it as every opportunity?

Now I'm not saying that anyone interested in GAA has to be a keen advocate for the development and resurgence of the language, but I will say is that in my experience in my GAA circles, people tend to either broadly support Irish language development, or, at the very least be indifferent.

Is this simply a case of because SF are behind the language act, just like a dog cannot help itself from wagging his tail when he sees his master, you too have to be seen to oppose it? .

Tis mighty odd tbh.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Locking this thread since the previous mod warning was widely ignored.

Well done to everyone who managed to turn this into Yet Another Northern Ireland Thread (TM)

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Mod Note

One person has been banned for personal abuse. More broadly, the thread has veered off topic from a border poll into the usual Northern Ireland related trench warfare.

If you can't have a civil conversation, don't post here.

Thanks